Juan Cruz

I did eight services for 911 victims I remember: -two funerals for a man with 7 children, hundreds of his Port Authority colleagues with ashen faces (too many funerals attended) -burials of boxes with a few pieces found - many, months later -a conversation with a future victim that Sunday. he told me "I just took my [two little] girls to see my new office on the 83rd floor of the north tower on Friday." -watching the towers fall on TV live, sitting next to his wife. -my funeral home director friends rounding up 100s of body bags that would never be used. -parents of my kid's school mates literally crying on my shoulder - a clergy colleague who told his son, and then quoted himself at a big memorial service (he dropped out of ministry a few years ago -thank God), "The Muslims did this." It shamed me to be his colleague. -visiting the Roman Catholic mother of a 22 year old Muslim victim (through his father)... his best friend walked out of above-mentioned service for the above mentioned reason. -Fund-raisers for months for families. -the smell at ground zero -actually all the way up past 14th street -ministers handing out bottles of water etc. to rescue workers - My friend, a church member, who just barely escaped that day, just to die a year later at 55 from a heart attack. She was beautiful. Her classmates from a private school in the West Indies sang school songs for her at her funeral. -candlelight vigils held at our church for weeks... people coming in and out silently -the widow who watched her husband's tower fall from her office window across the river. He had a noon tee-time for that day. I preached at his huge memorial mass. "It may be Good Friday, but Easter is Coming" (actually borrowed from a colleague - too many messages to deliver to overlapping groups too close together to write all new messages). -a few months ago, this same, bright, beautiful, young 911 widow introduced me to her finance at the grocery store. This was the week after our house was destroyed by fire... new beginnings. -I never fail to think about 911 as I drive down 7th Avenue and see the towers that aren't there anymore. Juan

Thanks, Dan. I re-read my post. It's my story and I'm sticking to it. Vacation was great except for the love of my life winding up in the hospital with pneumonia from a boogie-board/big wave induced cracked rib. A nurse said they "get that all the time." (!) If we were still in the Way..... well, she would have been just as sick... in just as much pain.... and maybe not had insurance....and all wondering about her believing ... hoping no one insisted on 'ministering healing' to her... (an empty sordid spectacle) post-Way? she was heroic, not letting it spoil any one else's time. No one wondered a bit what "Father" had to do with it or should do with it.. or why she was "attacked".... or why she didn't heal faster than unbelievers... or how to spin it into a testimony to the advantages of being a grad.... (oh, how twisted it all was) guess I'm off topic... hmmmm, well, everyone should know where to go for some counseling... and, if you've never gone.... why not? no issues? no pain? no traumas, tragedies? no need to improve communication anywhere? there, now I'm on topic. good for me. I deserve a Klondike ice cream bar. Peace, Juan "Todos serán bien, y todos serán bien, y todo tipo de cosas serán bien." Santa Juliana de Norwich

I took a fairly deep quaff of the Kool Aid but... I could NEVER buy the Republican political stuff No one was gonna make me believe Nixon was some sort of hero. Or Trilateral cons piracy stuff or "Bury a gun in your backyard, they're coming to get them!" This aspect probably helped alienate me from TWI in about 1976-77. I'm as patriotic as anyone.... and more patriotic than most. (I've registered over 160 new voters this summer... and I wear a flag lapel pin - that settles it, right?) I was a politically liberal activist going in... a silent political liberal while in... and a political liberal activist since coming out. I was a devout socially active Protestant going in... a cult void-doid while in... and then a devout socially active Protestant since coming out. I was also an environmentalist in all three phases. I attended the first Earth Day Celebration in Union Square, NYC I notice my old friend, Kris S., did too. Volvamos la "Madre de Presidentes" azul como el océano ... azul, el azul de la esperanza que canta toda la noche como un pájaro desquiciada.

Rainer Marie Rilke and Archibald MacCleish weigh in on angels... Salinger peeps in the window... Juan sweats and Obama sails south... an angel is a poem a state of grace a piece of fruit palpable and mute of course i've met a phantom angel if one ever answered me from heaven I'd dissolve in his beauty beauty is naught but terror that disdains to destroy us. concordance around the room with me one more time Friday night and twiggies gone home Stay with me, Twiggy Witness to me, Twiggy angel get your feathers out of my mouth Oh, what a witness divine. (unworthy) Oh, such believing! Oh, Esme, save me with your fear and loathing. Oooo, la la hidden in the cleft of the rock is the honey sorry, what was the question? Volvamos la "Madre de Presidentes" azul como el océano ... azul, el azul de la esperanza que canta toda la noche como un pájaro desquiciada. It's h,h &h in Casa de Lunes J de la C

Dear All, I'm too relaxed (on vacation) to write too much on this topic but here are a few thoughts. After 7 years in TWI ('70-'77) I earned a Masters of Science in Pastoral Counseling at an accredited Catholic College in NY ('80-'83) and then went to a Presbyterian (PCUSA) seminary ('83-'86) and earned a MDiv and was ordained to ministry. Through reading, education and church-going between '77 and '83 I gradually, with hard work, corrected a lot of the error TWI taught me between '77 and '83 when I entered seminary, though there were still some traces of foolishness in my beliefs. So, I guess you'd say I oozed out. Absolutely nothing I learned officially in TWI prepared me for ministry or counseling. Being a Twig Leader DID grant me the opportunity to practice some amateur ministry and I don't think I did much harm after I was 18 or so (got in just short of my 16th birthday). As implied above, most of my task of preparation for my calling involved unlearning error from TWI. Actually my childhood experience in church helped me more than PFAL etc. Jay Adams' book was as anemic as most stuff sold in Christian bookstores IMHO. It preapred me for coiunseling about as well as Hal Lindsay's book prepared me for predicting the future. Almost any classic, accepted, secular text was much better. For me, Harry Stack Sullivan's 'Interpersonal Psychiatry' made as much sense as almost anything else - and I have found that many of the best counselors I know practice methods based on similar theory. Truly, the best method all goes back to Plato's "know thyself". Of course Wayfers knew so little of themselves because they brainwashed, in a cult! Even orthodox Freudian stuff was safer, wiser despite its wackiness. Any teaching that involves any clinical application of 'casting out devil spirits' has no place in counseling! Well, I'm not cleaning this post up 'cause there's a gentle breeze coming in off the bay and lots of children are playing out on the lawn and the Yankees just beat the Red Sox and there's a Klondike Ice Cream Bar with my name on it... and I hear the love of my life laughing next door... Namaste', Juan

Dear All, A friend who is an elder in the same (Presbyterian) church I go to is reading Losing the Way. Here is what she says, She had an abusive, alcoholic, authoritarian father. ¿Tienes esperanza? Quiero por usted y EEUU, la esperanza. In hope, Juan

P-Town will still be here... Podunk might not. Long live P-Town, America's greatest town.... NYC is its greatest city.... IMHO .... must confess, i fantasize working in, and living over, a diner in Cody, Wyoming sometime

Well, now, myself, my wife, and her sister have all read Kris' book - all without basically putting it down. Sister in law mentioned her own abuse (it would rate as criminal) in addition to other equally criminal cases she personally knows about -- by a different figure right next to Victor. Two of these, she's never mentioned before.

NOT that there's anything wrong with it, right? PTown, a place where there is no discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. How refreshing! I registered 20 new voters there this afternoon, while my teen kids & their friends climbed the dunes (where allowed).

SHAZ! (come sing Handel again sometime!)

i don't know... gee, I never thought of it... but someone has been, or will the first to do it in space!! What guy, in a NASA locker room, could keep THAT to himself!?! the grandkids too should know that grandpa was The Charter Member of the 250 Thousand Mile High Club i know this is a bit sexist.. but I'm feeling kinda American Graffittish about the topic, kapish? -they call me steller feller, (quite rightly), they call me steller feller (quite rightly) -once you've gone heavenly, you'll never go heavy again -I think we're alone now, there doesn't seem to be anyone around..... -if you like my spacesuit and you think i'm sexy common comrade let me know -All you wanna do is ride around ,Sally, ... say, ride Sally Ride.... -i felt the moon move under my feet..... - emission control to major tom... your circuit's dead, can you hear me major tom? -but will you love me next light year?

Dear OtherDan, I AM too hip to be mainline! I was gonna go to a UU church in PTown this morning but Sra. Cruz got sick and had to go to a doctor. This congregation, in one of America's hippest towns, has organized voter registration.. all day every day on Commercial St. - one of America's hippest streets. I did 3.5 hours of 'witnessing' voter reg. last week (registered over 30 people.. maybe 40). "You may have changed your name. You may have changed your address. You may be living in another country under another name but ya gotta vote for somebody." Eli Eli, lama barackobamatani... God, spare our land.

Alleluia, here's a wonderful quote from a contemplative pastor.... he almost answered it as well as I did - lol ... he used honey instead of vinegar... I use vinegar because I trow it might take something akin to smelling salts to revive some PFAL grads from their inculcated illusions. I've decided to bop ' true believers' over the head with a lollipop - my keyboard is attached to my laptop. And besides, Herbie Popnecker would approve.

We ALL frantically want you, George. \You're the kewlest curmudgeon in this Floating World.

Yardbirds: "Love is but a Song We Sing" what's all this with the Four Tops? This Prayer was in Godspell. Originally: Richard of Chichester -very old If you're not good, George, we'll make you watch it 4 times in a row.

Happy belated birthday.. oh, for the last five years or so too. My, this place is spacious. hint, hint

Gee, even George didn't get THAT answer! lol guess i deserved it George, the historical Jesus may not have recognized the Jesus of the gospels.. "Wow, kewl! Where can I meet this guy who has the same name as me?" But, "Fictitious" is in the heart of the believer - or disbeliever, as the case may be. The Jesus who lives in my heart is closer to the one in the gospels than the historical one... though I like them both... I LOVE the one that walks with me day by day O dear Lord, three things I pray... (can you remember what they are?) further reading: Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography John Dominic Crossan (reader beware) Amazon page for this book

"inerrancy" is applying proudful human analysis to sacred writings... tacky: a little like asking the president's wife how much she weighs. As if we had some standing with which to judge the judge. I'd no more try to pigeon hole scripture than I would try to make a case that Asian women are more (or less sexy) than African women. If she turns you on, she's sexy. Likewise, if these words turn you on... you've gotten lucky. Inerrant? My wife is inerrant (yet she makes mistakes sometimes). Inerrant: gee, does it SAY itself is inerrant? Yes, it's inerrant; now waste time defending that... if it's inerrant, it tells us no more than it does if it's not inerrant - just the defining message of our life. "Honey, are you beautiful?" Inerrant?: would you respect it less if it didn't meet up to the standard you use for lab experiments? reliability, validity, statistical significance? You, Philistine. People who seek inerrancy: Are these the same people who would rather have a younger spouse - just because he/she is younger? I will allow myself to think about inerrancy for a minute -- for every lifetime I let scripture be the soul, thought and heart language I use to communicate with and follow One who stood beside the blue Galilean Sea, and gathered common folk like myself to his side, that I might follow him down life's dusty roads. Inerrancy, schimerrancy! I oughta clobber you! You want I should bop you over the head with this here keyboard? Inerrancy! sheesh... Paw ought to have automatic censoring of such a word. Poph, and pididdle. Inerrancy would be subsitited for by the word "intriguing." (*ss becomes 'foot' right?) inerrant... if you want inerrancy, stick to 10th grade geometry - don't go to the 12th floor of the Courant Institute where I once discussed number in scripture with a famous and orthodox Jewish mathematician. You'll depress him.. I'm sure I did. He probably went to the shiny, chrome gilt men's room to wash his hands of me after i had slunk away with my 'B.' Everyone who bothers to care about a word called ine**ancy.... Get down on your knees and ask forgiveness for such presumption. oeophile, this is not directed to you personally - however, if you needed to hear it.... glad I could help.

a real coincidence here... it was CG who introduced Senora Cruz's little boy to the interesting properties of corn starch....! Do you think Jesus... nah... never mind. Juan's daughter, when she was about 7 years old, asked, "Daddy, you don't really believe that a man walked across water do you?" And I loved my girl for that. She now, at 14, understands the true role of the literal gospel story. I love my girl for that - she's cult proof. She goes, unbidden, to our church almost every week and joined it this year. She works in a youth-started-and-run soup kitchen. She attends a weekly Bible study 3x a month, with all adults, at 7am on Saturday! She teaches "Christianity and Vegetarianism." I love my girl. She's the best runner on her cross country team. I'd love her even if she wasn't. To me... she walks on water. The peach of Christ, Juan

hmmm, maybe not so simple after all... this one is gasping maybe CG jokes, however inside they are are not funny anymore in light of the history of pain and suffering... Paw, if this entire thread is unwelcome I understand and would ask you to rerelegate it to the archives. meanwhile... CG: wanna go running, Gradguy? GG: sure! CG: I notice you didn't ask how far. GG: thaaat's riiiiiiight. (they start out at an easy pace.... GG slows down for CG when he stumbles through a puddle) CG: this is not a race, OK?.. let's start and end together GG: sounds good to me, you soggy SOGWAP (after a brisk 3 mile run, CG is breathing hard... GG, who is the best runner on his high school cross country team, isn't. With 150 yards or so to the agreed upon endpoint, CG breaks into a sprint, leaving GG behind.) CG: (stomping his wet running shoes -trying to look less than winded) It's all in the believing, GG GG: hmmmmm CG: you've got to be sold out to the Word GG: guess so CG: I was believing to win. GG: you don't say.... ( 6.5 years later GG leaves TWI, a wiser and somewhat paunchier man) Well, we're still not as lighthearted as we once were... you remember back in the funeral home, ICU and Sheriff's office? but we'll get there.. it takes lot of believing to be irreverent, lighthearted.. frivolous etc. .. we gotta get our believing up?

how to smother a light-hearted thread, huh? well, it's Blood Simple to revive.... CG: (at the wheel) (sinning soto voce) "The word of God was in my heart, like a burning fire shut up in my bones..... I grew weary, with obeying, I could not stay, O Lord, I could not stay."

I gather that CG, literally, sat at the wheel of the motorcoach while Victor abused our sisters. Anything to say, CG?

You may have all already been through this topic, but I haven't been around GSC for a few years or more -- until I read Ms. Skedgall's book recently. I was very active in TWI from 1970 to 1977 and am now a mainline minister who hardly ever even thinks of TWI. The kool aid has been completely out of my system since about 1986. I watched the video clip on the home page of GSC of some conflated "Rocky Horror Picture Show" and "Athletes of the SPirit." I had NEVER seen ANY of AOTS. I just assumed it would bore/disgust me. It also brought back bad memories as family members still trapped in TWI talked about it like it was the Grail, back after I had escaped from that prison fortress tower of false believing. Actually, though it is a bit sad when one knows just how sick TWI was (is), I don't look down on such dance (I'm a fan and friend of Elizabeth Streb... and her athletic dance style). The choreographic precision impresses me, even though I know it was bought at the lynch counter of Germanic/cultic obedience as much as artistic discipline. I gather it was a grand, if misguided, attempt to save a world on the brink of apocalypse? That's always good. I am attempting the same thing in a different arena (Si, se puede) and will even dance on street corners if i think it will help. I don't look down on CM for taking a lead role - though I gather that his mind was as wavy as his cerebral cortex at the time. Oy vey ist mir, to try to recover some normal life... with that video record from one's past on the web. Who will pray with me for the Athlete(s) of the Spirit? My favorite historical nutjob jock for Jesus is Henry Suso, though Simeon Stylites had style too. "Let's do The Time Warp again!" I'm so past it....my inner calendar has curved according to the physics of relative and spiritual space.... I'm so past it, I could spend (another) eternity in New Knoxville with no ill effects... I might even buy me a leotard before I go. Todo el mejor, hijo espiritual de Monica en la ventana de mi casa sosegada Odd thing is, it's always the weekend/beginning, and never Monday, in Casa de Lunes.

I can't tell you how close you came to losing me here. I skipped over this paragraph and read the rest though. I guess I'm just not a Si-Fi type guy... and yet.... a certain Zombosity was involved.

"Emotionally distant" and detached.... this is exactly what I experienced from a major Limb Leader when I went for pastoral counseling. And I was working my a** off for this guy's ministry! If a group (or a teaching) is not pastoral, it isn't Christian. If leaders have no oversight or accountability, the group is less than Christian (and very unsafe). If leaders have little training, or worse, training in how to sell the gospel and use people - then that group is very sick indeed. You need not stop with the teachings of TWI; there are riches of true, biblical Christian spirituality that go way beyond TWI managed to share. To stop with TWI's body of knowledge/teaching is like stopping in first grade (IMHO). Just one example: read Thomas Merton's Seven Story Mountain or Seeds of Contemplation or Hans Kung's On Being a Christian. My wife, Senora Cruz, finished Kris' book in 12 hours also. She was one of the first folk Kris witnessed to and so was very interested. Sr. Cruz never drank the whole cup... she only sipped the Kool Aid. Kris and I both drank the whole cup. Sheesh. She paid a greater price for her commitment. What was the difference? Luck? Gender? She's at least as smart as I am, if not smarter... and gifted as all get out. Emotional factors? Luck. I didn't think my esteem for her could have grown any higher - but it has. In Christ's love, Juan de la Cruz y la Casa de Lunes