Juan Cruz

Probably the most common reason is sexual misconduct.

Don't be discouraged, intrepid truth-seeker. Some retired UCC minister who served near Vic knows the whole story about the removal of Vic's ordination credentials and might share it.

There are two obstacles to the intrepid investigator. VPW was rather young when he went to India. Denominational colleagues (i.e. other local clergy) would have served on the oversight committee that received complaints about his behavior abroad (and in Ohio) and acted on them as something he did was sufficient to defrock him.* These colleagues are dying off now. The denomination merged and records were moved (where?). An Ohio UCC official I called a few years ago was uncooperative (like...'Don't want to help you dig up old dirt about a defrocked former clergyperson of our denomination.'). Minutes of church proceedings to investigate sensitive issues (say...clergy sexual misconduct) are unlikely to be made available even if they exsist.*He was defrocked from the United Church of Christ. UCC does not defrock people for theological reasons without a major who-doo. More conservative colleagues are tolerated by even the most liberal denominations. They are not kicked out. It is almost always those who are 'too liberal' who are challenged as heretics. Any theological challenge to VP's ordination would have been a nationally known and covered case. [However, clergy are quietly defrocked for other reasons.]

George, Font of Insightful Observations, If I were an unbeliever, I'd wanna be just like you (smart, funny, honest). Or to put slightly more biblically, "Almost thou persuadest me to disbelieve." lol The degree of secrecy and cult acceptance vary, but you've got the seed of a good term-paper or dissertation there - not for you, silly! ...for some upperclassperson at Harvard, say, with a cross-disciplinary concentration in any of the following... sociology/anthropology/religion/feminist studies -whatever. I'll even produce the title: "A Cross-cultural and Historic Comparison of Cultically Sanctioned Sexually Abusive Practices." I want a mention in the footnotes. jc

Thanks Tom, Have a cigar! "Remiring" seemed a tad more creative than dragging out the old biblical dog vomit calumny. For the same spiritual malady, however "copraphagic" might suffice and is real and is nice

clear, beautiful reason vs. ideological mud side by side... almost looks black or white! lol but i know it's not 3 cents must have his ideological moments (tho rare I'm sure). Perhaps he hates torture for more than purely rational reasons? Mike must have his reasonable moments. Perhaps he sometimes entertains doubts about the divinely revealed nature of PFAL before remiring hisself once again.

for kind words ..very grateful... very grateful

Yes, TWI is like the Tin Man. hollow and without a heart. Year by year it gets rustier and rustier. Soon, no one will hear it's creaky cries and it will oxyidize into Gehenna's blood and rusty soil. Dorothy goes to church and would gladly share its oil but Vic's Tin Man stands all alone in a dark wood in the twilight. "If I believed that my reply were made to one who could ever climb to the world again, this flame would shake no more. But since no shade ever returned -- if what I am told is true -- from this blind world into the living light without fear of dishonor I can answer you;"* * Dante's Comedia, canto 27 of the Inferno. John Ciardi's translation

The "almost dying' or the surviving?

To me the biggest and most damaging myth is that.. Only Way folk really understand, and therefore walk on, scripture. It's mind boggling. Imagine the arrogance. the blindness. You can't act like a Christian ought with that kind of crap in your brain. The Almighty has got to just : -shiver with disappointment at such hubris and -shake with anger at such teachers who bear the greater judgment, right? Recall how often Paul rails against such teachers in the epistles. Recall too, how it's no fun being a "genuine" Christian amongst the 'fools' who can only 'play' at being Christian. Hemmed in by our own 'brilliance' we were. Oh, how liberating it was to stop looking at shadows on the cave wall. To turn around and leave the cave into the sunshine of reality!

JT, This is very funny. It's certainly how I felt.

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!!! We all know what it is for which VP sold HIS soul. (It comes in Levi's.) And he had the audacity to criticize others. What a small, small man, with a teenie-weenie heart.

Since Wierwille no tiene madre. ... we might now entertain the notion that VP met a guy who once saw Barth across a room. And dreamed the rest.

Yes, JT, you're right.. it was MORE than a compliment. Why would VPW settle for just a compliment from a famous theologian? After all, he was the MOGFODAT. Anyone got the exact quote? VP passed it along to us in PFAL as an epiphany with large theological implications for KB (or whoever) to the best of my recollection. I seem to recall Wierwille reporting that the theologian said "If what you say is true, we'd have to sit here for at least two weeks to work over this And I loved that man for that." This is with reference to tongues et al being manifestations as opposed to 'gifts.' right? Barth later wrote that 'the church that does not yearn for the gifts of the spirit is a lazy church'* Given this quote, I guess Barth (or whoever) was not fully or lastingly convinced re: gifts vs. manifestations. * Is there any other kind? Disciples sleep while Jesus agonizes in the garden. (mixing metaphors) They dramatically jump off the lifeguard chair in such a way that their heads hide in the sand when drowners cry for help.

VPW probably talked to KB once and Barth probably complimented him just as he describes in PFAL. VP could be charming. Hell, he charmed us out of our money, time, and pants, didn't he? Barth and VP were kinda similar - they both held a sort of magical belief in the letter of the "Word" as holding secrets and answers to 'life's persistent questions.' However, Barth's brilliant, scholarly, and erudite Church Dogmatics were in service of the church. Wierwille's borrowed and tortured bibical machinations were largely in service of his wiener. They were Wiener Dogmatics. NB: Barth was barred from preaching in churches of his own denomination for having an improper relationship with his secretary. So Barth preached in prisons. Would that Wierwille had found such a Christian solution.

Yes, Rafael, thanks, Innuendo about Ms. Martindale's private life is low class. I'm not saying that's what PJR was up to..but it opened the door. Let all people of good Christian (or other) faith respect her privacy. Isn't it tough enough just having to be in TWI? yuck.

NIKA, Thanks! (I thought maybe I was cursing up the wrong Way Tree.)

"TWI SCAMS" Isn't that like: Department of Sanitation -trash collection? IRS -tax collection? Grocery store -food sales? Department of Correction -prisoner room & board? Schools -education? Ebay - on-line auctions? Hollywood -movies? TWI, why do you run classes? TWI, why do you organize home fellowships? Tell them, won't you Willy? "Because that's where the money is." No! Because that's how we spread the love of God. Oh, and what do you do with this love of God? We run classes. Hokay. It's tough to get people to just mail in their cash without pretending to give them something worthwhile. Even if it's just hackneyed Bible teaching with no pastoral care, no organized mission work (that might give people's life some meaning outside of, well, running classes). inject truth serum now: "We sell easy answers that inflate your ego. Soon, you can be telling your family and friends -- along with all of us -- our MOTTO: I've got something you don't got and I know things that you don't know." Oh isn't it glorious?! Fans, how often are they open with you about collections (amount and use)? Any reputable non-profit organization publishes it all for their supporters annually. Seen it? Warning: Fans, don't ask for this info. if you want to remain a Waybot in good-standing (so you can run classes, so you can stay in good standing, so you can run classes). "Get a new plan, Stan."

I got curses I took from the carburetor of the motor coach. I got curses I stole from Chris Geer’s running shoes. I got improper puja the family pundit put on Pillai’s sleeping bag outside his door when he got home from Mar‘s Hill. I got curses worse than living downwind in Emporia. ... ones Ted would never sing about. ... Life Magazine won’t write about. ... Mick Jagger won’t think about. (I got curses you can’t get at the racetrack.) Tree parts snap off and fall when my breath blows cold on them. How long, O Lord, wilt Thou keep sealed this apocalyptic pneumatic pestilence? They won’t be safe at Dunkin’ Donuts when Senora Cruz’s little boy gets the green light to do his deuteronomic paso doble.

They better not mess with me. I got curses they haven't even found in their "Advanced" class! I got curses they don't know about. I got curses where they got "positive believing." I got curses where they're out roasting wieners by the campfire. I got curses even Rhoda never heard. I got curses you can't put on tape and sell. I got co-lateral curses. I got curses Bullinger couldn't find in the stars. I got curses for them if they mess with me. I've learned the real Word of God and from it I got curses for people who f with the truth. It's just grace (I happen to have a red light from Daddy right now) that I don't unload on the whole pack of them hyenas. But the forbearance of Daddy might not last forever, OK?

Doesn't anyone care that Juanito was so publically humilated by VP's voodoo, hocus pocus act? Does it say something about a ministry that would encourage such things? Who does he think he's fooling? US!!!!! And, alas, he did. The sooner you pack your bags, the better off you'll be. Get on the bus, Gus. You want to combat real evil? First, know where it really is and how it operates. How are the most people hurt the most? (Hints: Read the prophets. Register to vote.) The Man wasn't whistling dixie when he said, "The truth shall set you free."

Ralph, I was no longer around by the time you assumed leadership duties outside of NY. I hear, however, that you acted with integrity, love, and spoke truth to power. I'd love to hear the story. Maybe it's in Karl's book(?). I bought it but got so queasy with memories reading it that I had to stop after a chapter.. maybe I can re-try. HEY!... Happy Birthday. Juan

We heard Luke 5 & 6 preached in church this morning: Jesus at Levi's banquet (they all wore jeans) and then the healing of the man with the withered hand. The preacher talked about the "Pharisee's Rules" for: PEOPLE: if different or sinful don't touch them PIETY: what's good for me is good for you too PRECEPT: blind obedience without consideration of the original intention. Applies to both gay marriage issues and TWI issues (IMHO)!

I'm in the "Been Possessed" Club! Thank God "Marjo" Wierwille was around to make a wonderful theatrical spectacle out of my very slight temporary health problem - (I passed out). I've heard this happened to others as well. What a cad. He musta been packing "4 Stars." Do they still talk like that? Speaking of hate..can you guess whose memory I despise? Let it go, Juan. Let it go, Juan.Let it go, Juan.Let it go, Juan.Let it go, Juan.Let it go, Juan.Let it go, Juan.Let it go, Juan. Nah. I hate evil, especially the banal brand -the evilest. He was a small, small man. He preached to trees when he was young (he told us - probably ripped the story off from Oral Roberts or someone -was ANYTHING he did genuine?). Pity he didn't stick to the arboreal mission field. But his pants were calling (tree etc. puns welcome). I usually wait till after Easter to enjoy laughs on the devil but every Sunday is a "Poca Pascua" so...