Yeah, but if they were truly perfect, would they have ever rebelled? It seems to me, there was learning that still needed to be done, and therefore they were not quite perfect, else they would not have rebelled.
Yeah, but if they were truly perfect, would they have ever rebelled? It seems to me, there was learning that still needed to be done, and therefore they were not quite perfect, else they would not have rebelled.
That's a good question! I don't know! Perhaps we need to explore what "perfection" is...I think of Lucifer who was also "perfect", rebelled; Ezekiel 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." [NASV] Definitions from The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible by Spiros Zodhiates are as follows: blameless from Hebrew tamiym - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, undefiled, whole...unrighteousness from Hebrew evel - a moral evil, iniquity, perverseness, unrighteousness...I've always thought of this "unrighteousness" as the act of choosing to rebel against God - and specifically with both Lucifer and the humans a choosing to be like God...This verse in Ezekiel is puzzling - isn't it?
...But in considering the other part of your post "there was learning that still needed to be done" I think of how our kids will sometimes rebel and do things their way - and sometimes we have to let go and let them do it - even though we see it will hurt them...I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc.
"I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc. "
Exactly! And eating the fuit was part of that proceess.
I will do some work on the word "perfect", as well as the verse in Ezekiel.
Judaism teaches that man has a dual nature. This was given to us, at least in part, to promulgate our survival. If we didn't have some selfish wants and desires we would not survive - we would not "take" what we need for our own physical survival. Man also has God's nature, to give, to love, to nourish, etc. - this is our divine aspect.
They key, is to keep the two in balance. If the "selfish"nature is allowed too much reign, we become "unrighteous" in our actions (which is what occred with the King of Tyre in Ezekial 28:15 who became arrogant and greedy). However, if we allow the divine nature to take too much reign, we also err in that we will neglect our basic needs for survival. Or, as Sushi puts it, "you shouldn't be so spiritually minded that you are no earthly good."
Most Jews do not believe in "Satan" or the "devil" as some spiritual entity that is fighting for dominion. Rather, they see it as a figure of speech referring to the internal war we wage at times, in finding that balance between our selfish nature and our divine one.
In TWI, one of the verses that we were taught regarding the Devil comes from Isaiah 14
"How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north."
Rashi's commentary indicates that Lucifer is a reference to the planet venus, but that ultimately this section is a figure of speech referring to the ruler of Babylon. Again, similar to the king of Tyre.
Likewise, according o Rashi's commentary, In Job, "The Adversary" is not an evil spirit being standing in opposition to God, but rather a spirit being who does God's will by observing man and informing God of the evil man does. In fact, in that first section where the angels and the adversary come to stand before God, the context is such that the angels are likewise there to contend with God regarding judgment of man's deeds. It is understood that this all took place on the day of Rosh Hashanah. This is the day when man's sins from the previous year are weighed and it is decided if his name will be written in the Book of Life for another year or not.
Now, I am not saying I agree with all of the above. I have to think on those things before I could come to a conclusion. I simply share them to offer another perspective. Personally, I think there are layers of meanings within these scriptures and I do not pretend to see them all.
Another view of this would be the Piers Anthony series, "The Incarnations Of Immortality". Abi and I read it over a period of a couple of months, and I would highly recommend it. The only downside to the series is, it was written as stand alone books, thus necessitating an almost unbearable amount of repetition. Other than that, it's a finely written series suggesting another view of 'the gods'. If you have the time, it's a great read.
I would, however, caution it really isn't for the religiously entrenched.
Regarding my reference to Ezekiel 28:14, I have always assumed it referred to Lucifer [linking it with the more obvious reference to him in Isaiah 14:12-15] but today I read a couple of references that say Ezekiel 28:12-19 refers to Adam – one is Keil & Delitzsch's Commentary on the Old Testament: Volume 9 Ezekiel, Daniel, commenting on Ezekiel 28:15, page 415, "In ver.15, the comparison of the prince of Tyre to Adam in Paradise is brought out still more prominently. As Adam was created sinless, so was the prince of Tyre innocent in his conduct in the day of his creation, but only until perverseness was found in him. As Adam forfeited and lost the happiness conferred upon him trhough his fall, so did the king of Tyre forfeit his glorious position through unrighteousness and sin, and cause God to cast him from his eminence down to the ground." The other reference is The NET Bible in a note on Ezekiel 28:13 "The imagery of the lament appears to draw upon an extrabiblical Eden tradition about the expulsion of the first man…from the garden due to his pride…"
After thinking about that for awhile I became fascinated by The NET Bible version of Ezekiel 28:13-17:
13. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and diamond, the beryl, onyx, and jasper, the sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; your settings and engravings were made of gold. On the day you were created they were prepared.
14. I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst the stones of fire.
15. You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.
16. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I defiled you and banished you from the mountain of God, the guardian cherub expelled you from the midst of the stones of fire.
17. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you perverted your wisdom on account of your splendor. I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
With the possibility that the above is comparing the fall of the king of Tyre to the fall of Adam – I re-read the Genesis 3 account of the temptation and the fall – and something stood out to me – I never noticed this before – here's how it reads in The Net Bible [but even KJV has it very similar], Genesis 3:6 [the part I noticed I put inbold red] "When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it." I guess I never realized how this whole scene played out. I don't know if Adam was there from the beginning of the temptation in verse one or he came along near the end – I tend to think he was there for about the whole time – silent – doesn't say a whole lot for men does it?!?! Hmmmmmmm…I Timothy 2:14 says Adam was not deceived [he ate willingly when Eve gave him the fruit] but Eve was deceived…I guess we all try to be a good judge of character when we're dealing with people [whether on a personal or professional basis] – I tend to be forgiving of someone that makes an unintentional mistake or operates under misinformation – but someone who full well knows what they're doing – no deal!!!...Anyway – sorry to get way off topic but I thought it would be interesting on this thread about Eve.
Sushi, Abigail - thanks for sharing the different perspectives on this stuff - it gets me thinking.
Yeah, but if they were truly perfect, would they have ever rebelled? It seems to me, there was learning that still needed to be done, and therefore they were not quite perfect, else they would not have rebelled.
That's a good question! I don't know! Perhaps we need to explore what "perfection" is...I think of Lucifer who was also "perfect", rebelled
...But in considering the other part of your post "there was learning that still needed to be done" I think of how our kids will sometimes rebel and do things their way - and sometimes we have to let go and let them do it - even though we see it will hurt them...I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc.
"I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc. "
Exactly! And eating the fuit was part of that proceess.
Very interesting, I've wondered the same. If all was perfect and complete, then why yearn for more.
Sounds like man is being spoken of here. Part of him...a third...
13. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and diamond, the beryl, onyx, and jasper, the sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; your settings and engravings were made of gold. On the day you were created they were prepared.
14. I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst the stones of fire.
15. You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.
16. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I defiled you and banished you from the mountain of God, the guardian cherub expelled you from the midst of the stones of fire.
17. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you perverted your wisdom on account of your splendor. I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
I think it's built in us to strive and search for more of the unlimited God.
Part of our nature I believe-a good nature, although we make mistakes,
we still keep on trying.
I agree we are built from scratch with an inward seeking device. I also believe things not intended for the human machine to take in can clog the mechanisms and the seeking device become confused as to its direction. Closing it down at times where imho I think death results in some form or other if no movement takes place.
I've considered how scripture speaks of reaching out with what is available. All this so well defined in the OT so as not to be rallied around if you are confined to administrational thinking. Why be encouraged to not only seek that which is healthy to us but if we have some of it to spread it around.
And if we didn't recognize good and evil we couldn't hold fast to something we deem good. We could be tempted to just write off our evil nature as growing pains and never address the greater need for something to hold on to.
All this would have a different perspective if we were automatically fixed with a script in our head for the fullness of lives. In light of that what if we'd not had sin introduced? What would the world have looked like? I can't imagine.
Chatty, on humans having some kind of built-in hunger for knowledge - I agree...In thinking about the forbidden fruit of Genesis 3, I sometimes wonder - was it going to be a permanent prohibition to eat it? I also think about the fact that the actual "fruit" is not mentioned - I'm thinking because that wasn't important...And to tread a little further into this intriguing scene - I think about the moral aspect of their choice. It says it was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil...It leads me to think their fault in wanting to learn more was their MOTIVE in eating the fruit. In other words, there was nothing wrong with the fruit - sorta like wanting something that is morally neutral [like money, a job, etc.] but for the wrong reasons...
Sushi, I read about Piers Anthony Series The Incarnations of Immortality at Wikipedia - it sounds interesting. I used to read a lot of sci-fi and fantasy when I was a teenager. I may have to check the series out at the library. Wikipedia offers a lengthy synopsis of each book and touches on the main themes. I think the series would be a good reading assignment to go along with this thread - purely extra credit for all you lifetime students out there!
Just to clarify myself on the MOTIVE issue I suggested in my previous post. I don't think there was anything wrong in them wanting to learn - I was wondering about their motive for learning that particular thing. In my opinion it revolves around some aspect of them wanting to be like God - which I don't fault them for that - sorta like kids wanting to be like their parents. Perhaps there was an element of distrust of God brewing in the Serpent's temptation by implying God was withholding information from them...Like some soap opera drama where one person suspects another of deception and will in turn take action - even morally wrong action so as not to be caught off guard by this alleged scam.
Chatty, on humans having some kind of built-in hunger for knowledge - I agree...In thinking about the forbidden fruit of Genesis 3, I sometimes wonder - was it going to be a permanent prohibition to eat it? I also think about the fact that the actual "fruit" is not mentioned - I'm thinking because that wasn't important...And to tread a little further into this intriguing scene - I think about the moral aspect of their choice. It says it was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil...It leads me to think their fault in wanting to learn more was their MOTIVE in eating the fruit. In other words, there was nothing wrong with the fruit - sorta like wanting something that is morally neutral [like money, a job, etc.] but for the wrong reasons...
Just to clarify myself on the MOTIVE issue I suggested in my previous post. I don't think there was anything wrong in them wanting to learn - I was wondering about their motive for learning that particular thing. In my opinion it revolves around some aspect of them wanting to be like God - which I don't fault them for that - sorta like kids wanting to be like their parents. Perhaps there was an element of distrust of God brewing in the Serpent's temptation by implying God was withholding information from them...Like some soap opera drama where one person suspects another of deception and will in turn take action - even morally wrong action so as not to be caught off guard by this alleged scam.
When I read your first post I thought that was what you meant, that there was perhaps something wrong in the wanting of it, their motive. Maybe wanting something that they weren't quite ready to receive. But we tend to think we know best for ourselves it seems.
And how better to get to us than to imply you are withholding. All that can do in communication. That evil source would have been the slickest at what he offered. The best were taken in.
"In thinking about the forbidden fruit of Genesis 3, I sometimes wonder - was it going to be a permanent prohibition to eat it?"
Judaism teaches that the fruit was intended to be eaten - but that Adam and Eve were supposed to wait til the Sabbath to eat it.
From a surface reading God says "yes here is the tree of knowledge of good and evil". "Here is what you do not have". "You have everything yet you cannot have this". What is God actually saying?
Then the serpent is there IN THE GARDEN! Don't mean to shout. But why is he there where God placed him-man. Do we think God didn't know the serpent was there? Did God think that the serpent wouldn't do what he did?
I believe, and this is very elementary, and logical that this is the plan for man to become one in Christ. To dethrone the serpent out of Christ's rightful place in the mind as clearly as 2 Thessalonians details in the second chapter. The will of man and woman meeting the Lord in the air, becoming one in unity and one as they always have been, yet know clearly face to face seeing what the dragon is. And bring forth the man child. The Christ.
And the flood of many waters will lift the ark above the earth and above the mountains, (which are not mentioned till after the flood started). And the flood of the word of God will lift the righteous and bring the righteous back down again. And it will happen again. But there is nothing like the first time.
Like the first born. Like the son of man which are many but one all over the world.. Like the only begotten of God. Retaining our individuals and that which works in our hearts so clearly. Yet our minds doubt ourselves. And the greatness of the Christ within us. Did Jesus not cry? Did Jesus not get angry? Did Jesus not have compassion as we do?
This is the Christ along with the wisdom of God that makes foolish the wisdom of this world. Why, there are sons and then there are Sons. We are all in this together and no one will be left out. Even those before the flood are redeemed. Even those of Sodom and Gomorrah are redeemed in Jesus' own words. Can he not save even them that are so lost that it takes knocking them off their high horse and blinded by the light till a brother touched his life, and we have this record today.
I wonder how many more times this has happened that we have not seen. I wonder how many times it has happened before our eyes and we did not see it. I also wonder about those who taste and step back because of fear of the unknown. Fear of loosing something that God would never take away. There will be things lost, but much more gained as selfishness and self righteousness falls to pieces in his presence. Dieing here and now so that the new man and woman can live. And sure we all make mistakes.
God's grace and mercy and Love are more then enough to cover it. Those in the old testament couldn't see this because of the vail upon their eyes. Still today there remains for many the vail which is not taken away ..... yet.
That man of sin, that son of perdition will die with the breath of the Christ, the double-edged sword coming out of his mouth-out of your mouth. cause others can only brush up against the Spirit that is within and stir up it's heat. And burn the bad and redeem the good.
A transformation into a new creation that has always been there yet sleeping as a seed waiting to be born. And when this world has passed there will be nothing to hold it back.
So Eve, the mother of all living breathing life into man. The Spirit of God which is feminine in nature. Wisdom which is feminine. God knows we have enough masculine gods around. Put these two together in one person and fasten your frigging seat belt. Cuz it's one hell of a ride and no one will miss it and it is unlimited even after our flesh fails. We will continue as one in Christ where there is neither male nor female.
So Eve, the mother of all living breathing life into man. The Spirit of God which is feminine in nature. Wisdom which is feminine. God knows we have enough masculine gods around. Put these two together in one person and fasten your frigging seat belt. Cuz it's one hell of a ride and no one will miss it and it is unlimited even after our flesh fails. We will continue as one in Christ where there is neither male nor female.
Some great points here! And I think back to Genesis 1:27 "...God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and femaleHe created them." [NASV] The difference in the genders [intellectually, emotionally, etc.] are different aspects of the same image of God. Viva la difference!
Okay - I have a few things I want to add - I hope I can do so in an organized fashion. :)
I'm going to start with a single Hebrew word - Sechina. I believe the literal translation is akin to "the Divine presence that dwells within". It is often described as a separate spiritual entity - but I believe this is done simply to help us undertand certain parables, whereas in reality, it is simply descriptive of one aspect or characteristic of God. Sechina is often thought of in the feminine, as it was Eve who also represented God's femine side (let us create man in our image - male and female created he them). Biblically, it is the "cloud" over the tent as the Jews wandered the desert.
It is thought that what drove Eve to eat of the Tree was the desire to immerse herself in all the beauty of the world - her desire to experience everything. This is attributed to the Shechina within her and the Shechina's desire to permeate all. However, because Eve ate the fruit at the improper time, she imprisoned the Sechina and made her subject to the male aspect and man.
It was Sarah who first began the process of freeing the Sechina. Abraham himself could not do it, in that he is male - but he empowered Sarah to do it when he sent her to Pharoah. Sarah went to Pharoh (descended into the lair of the snake) and resisted the lure. She decended into darkness, but maintained her connection to the light (Abraham).
It is said that Abraham's hospitality was to all men - that he welcomed all. Sarah, on the other hand was more discerning. She only desired to welcome those she perceived as Godly. So it is said that it is Abraham that draws people to the light and it is Sarah that cleanses and heals them.
Rebecca and Isaac is said to be the parable of the uniting of heaven and earth.
Rachel and Leah tell the story of the Shechina also. Rachel is the Shechina as it descends to take care of her children as they wander in Exile. Leah is lofty, she rises above and is what we stive for but still have not ascended to.
Miriam is the guardian of the promise which will bring us from the darkness of exile to the great light of freedom
and on and on it goes.
I leave you with This Article for your reading enjoyment. :)
This is from "How Good Do We Have To Be" by Harold Kushner.
One theologian has pointed out the unusual Hebrew word used for pain in Gen. 3:16,17 when God decrees Adam's and Eve's fate is also used in Gen 6:6, to describe the pain GOD feels at seeing how badly his world has turned out. Could it be, that when God tells Adam and Eve that sexuality, parenthood and creativity will be painful, He is not so much punishing them as saying to them, "You ate of that tree, because you wanted to be like God, knowing Good and Evil? Well, you're about to find out frustrating is to be like God, to create something and then give up control of what you have created, to want something to turn out as perfectlyas you pictured it in your mind and then see how far short the reality falls of your original intention. There is more pain than you could ever imagine in knowing about Good and Evil."
and i think it bears repeating how not only deeply jewish christianity is at its roots (such as Genesis)
but how deeply feminine it also is...especially in the capacity to handle suffering, in general
though i think pain and suffering may be one of the most difficult subjects of all to approach these days
especially in the context of things like sexuality and spiritual love
...
i also wish i knew how to share what i understand about all this without it becoming a monologue
cuz i think this thread is an amazing tapestry of a more open dialogue
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Abigail
Yeah, but if they were truly perfect, would they have ever rebelled? It seems to me, there was learning that still needed to be done, and therefore they were not quite perfect, else they would not have rebelled.
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T-Bone
That's a good question! I don't know! Perhaps we need to explore what "perfection" is...I think of Lucifer who was also "perfect", rebelled; Ezekiel 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." [NASV] Definitions from The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible by Spiros Zodhiates are as follows: blameless from Hebrew tamiym - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, undefiled, whole...unrighteousness from Hebrew evel - a moral evil, iniquity, perverseness, unrighteousness...I've always thought of this "unrighteousness" as the act of choosing to rebel against God - and specifically with both Lucifer and the humans a choosing to be like God...This verse in Ezekiel is puzzling - isn't it?
...But in considering the other part of your post "there was learning that still needed to be done" I think of how our kids will sometimes rebel and do things their way - and sometimes we have to let go and let them do it - even though we see it will hurt them...I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc.
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Abigail
"I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc. "
Exactly! And eating the fuit was part of that proceess.
I will do some work on the word "perfect", as well as the verse in Ezekiel.
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Abigail
Judaism teaches that man has a dual nature. This was given to us, at least in part, to promulgate our survival. If we didn't have some selfish wants and desires we would not survive - we would not "take" what we need for our own physical survival. Man also has God's nature, to give, to love, to nourish, etc. - this is our divine aspect.
They key, is to keep the two in balance. If the "selfish"nature is allowed too much reign, we become "unrighteous" in our actions (which is what occred with the King of Tyre in Ezekial 28:15 who became arrogant and greedy). However, if we allow the divine nature to take too much reign, we also err in that we will neglect our basic needs for survival. Or, as Sushi puts it, "you shouldn't be so spiritually minded that you are no earthly good."
Most Jews do not believe in "Satan" or the "devil" as some spiritual entity that is fighting for dominion. Rather, they see it as a figure of speech referring to the internal war we wage at times, in finding that balance between our selfish nature and our divine one.
In TWI, one of the verses that we were taught regarding the Devil comes from Isaiah 14
"How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north."
Rashi's commentary indicates that Lucifer is a reference to the planet venus, but that ultimately this section is a figure of speech referring to the ruler of Babylon. Again, similar to the king of Tyre.
Likewise, according o Rashi's commentary, In Job, "The Adversary" is not an evil spirit being standing in opposition to God, but rather a spirit being who does God's will by observing man and informing God of the evil man does. In fact, in that first section where the angels and the adversary come to stand before God, the context is such that the angels are likewise there to contend with God regarding judgment of man's deeds. It is understood that this all took place on the day of Rosh Hashanah. This is the day when man's sins from the previous year are weighed and it is decided if his name will be written in the Book of Life for another year or not.
Now, I am not saying I agree with all of the above. I have to think on those things before I could come to a conclusion. I simply share them to offer another perspective. Personally, I think there are layers of meanings within these scriptures and I do not pretend to see them all.
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Sushi
Another view of this would be the Piers Anthony series, "The Incarnations Of Immortality". Abi and I read it over a period of a couple of months, and I would highly recommend it. The only downside to the series is, it was written as stand alone books, thus necessitating an almost unbearable amount of repetition. Other than that, it's a finely written series suggesting another view of 'the gods'. If you have the time, it's a great read.
I would, however, caution it really isn't for the religiously entrenched.
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T-Bone
Regarding my reference to Ezekiel 28:14, I have always assumed it referred to Lucifer [linking it with the more obvious reference to him in Isaiah 14:12-15] but today I read a couple of references that say Ezekiel 28:12-19 refers to Adam – one is Keil & Delitzsch's Commentary on the Old Testament: Volume 9 Ezekiel, Daniel, commenting on Ezekiel 28:15, page 415, "In ver.15, the comparison of the prince of Tyre to Adam in Paradise is brought out still more prominently. As Adam was created sinless, so was the prince of Tyre innocent in his conduct in the day of his creation, but only until perverseness was found in him. As Adam forfeited and lost the happiness conferred upon him trhough his fall, so did the king of Tyre forfeit his glorious position through unrighteousness and sin, and cause God to cast him from his eminence down to the ground." The other reference is The NET Bible in a note on Ezekiel 28:13 "The imagery of the lament appears to draw upon an extrabiblical Eden tradition about the expulsion of the first man…from the garden due to his pride…"
After thinking about that for awhile I became fascinated by The NET Bible version of Ezekiel 28:13-17:
13. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and diamond, the beryl, onyx, and jasper, the sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; your settings and engravings were made of gold. On the day you were created they were prepared.
14. I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst the stones of fire.
15. You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.
16. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I defiled you and banished you from the mountain of God, the guardian cherub expelled you from the midst of the stones of fire.
17. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you perverted your wisdom on account of your splendor. I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
With the possibility that the above is comparing the fall of the king of Tyre to the fall of Adam – I re-read the Genesis 3 account of the temptation and the fall – and something stood out to me – I never noticed this before – here's how it reads in The Net Bible [but even KJV has it very similar], Genesis 3:6 [the part I noticed I put in bold red] "When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it." I guess I never realized how this whole scene played out. I don't know if Adam was there from the beginning of the temptation in verse one or he came along near the end – I tend to think he was there for about the whole time – silent – doesn't say a whole lot for men does it?!?! Hmmmmmmm…I Timothy 2:14 says Adam was not deceived [he ate willingly when Eve gave him the fruit] but Eve was deceived…I guess we all try to be a good judge of character when we're dealing with people [whether on a personal or professional basis] – I tend to be forgiving of someone that makes an unintentional mistake or operates under misinformation – but someone who full well knows what they're doing – no deal!!!...Anyway – sorry to get way off topic but I thought it would be interesting on this thread about Eve.
Sushi, Abigail - thanks for sharing the different perspectives on this stuff - it gets me thinking.
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ChattyKathy
Very interesting, I've wondered the same. If all was perfect and complete, then why yearn for more.
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dancing
I think it's built in us to strive and search for more of the unlimited God.
Part of our nature I believe-a good nature, although we make mistakes,
we still keep on trying.
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dancing
TBone,
Sounds like man is being spoken of here. Part of him...a third...
13. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and diamond, the beryl, onyx, and jasper, the sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; your settings and engravings were made of gold. On the day you were created they were prepared.
14. I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst the stones of fire.
15. You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.
16. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I defiled you and banished you from the mountain of God, the guardian cherub expelled you from the midst of the stones of fire.
17. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you perverted your wisdom on account of your splendor. I threw you down to the ground; I placed you before kings, that they might see you.
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ChattyKathy
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ChattyKathy
I've considered how scripture speaks of reaching out with what is available. All this so well defined in the OT so as not to be rallied around if you are confined to administrational thinking. Why be encouraged to not only seek that which is healthy to us but if we have some of it to spread it around.
And if we didn't recognize good and evil we couldn't hold fast to something we deem good. We could be tempted to just write off our evil nature as growing pains and never address the greater need for something to hold on to.
All this would have a different perspective if we were automatically fixed with a script in our head for the fullness of lives. In light of that what if we'd not had sin introduced? What would the world have looked like? I can't imagine.
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T-Bone
Chatty, on humans having some kind of built-in hunger for knowledge - I agree...In thinking about the forbidden fruit of Genesis 3, I sometimes wonder - was it going to be a permanent prohibition to eat it? I also think about the fact that the actual "fruit" is not mentioned - I'm thinking because that wasn't important...And to tread a little further into this intriguing scene - I think about the moral aspect of their choice. It says it was from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil...It leads me to think their fault in wanting to learn more was their MOTIVE in eating the fruit. In other words, there was nothing wrong with the fruit - sorta like wanting something that is morally neutral [like money, a job, etc.] but for the wrong reasons...
Sushi, I read about Piers Anthony Series The Incarnations of Immortality at Wikipedia - it sounds interesting. I used to read a lot of sci-fi and fantasy when I was a teenager. I may have to check the series out at the library. Wikipedia offers a lengthy synopsis of each book and touches on the main themes. I think the series would be a good reading assignment to go along with this thread - purely extra credit for all you lifetime students out there!
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Abigail
"In thinking about the forbidden fruit of Genesis 3, I sometimes wonder - was it going to be a permanent prohibition to eat it?"
Judaism teaches that the fruit was intended to be eaten - but that Adam and Eve were supposed to wait til the Sabbath to eat it.
More later . . . .
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T-Bone
Just to clarify myself on the MOTIVE issue I suggested in my previous post. I don't think there was anything wrong in them wanting to learn - I was wondering about their motive for learning that particular thing. In my opinion it revolves around some aspect of them wanting to be like God - which I don't fault them for that - sorta like kids wanting to be like their parents. Perhaps there was an element of distrust of God brewing in the Serpent's temptation by implying God was withholding information from them...Like some soap opera drama where one person suspects another of deception and will in turn take action - even morally wrong action so as not to be caught off guard by this alleged scam.
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ChattyKathy
I have no time but some very cool things have been added since last I was here. Back when I can.
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ChattyKathy
When I read your first post I thought that was what you meant, that there was perhaps something wrong in the wanting of it, their motive. Maybe wanting something that they weren't quite ready to receive. But we tend to think we know best for ourselves it seems.
And how better to get to us than to imply you are withholding. All that can do in communication. That evil source would have been the slickest at what he offered. The best were taken in.
Can't wait! :)
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dancing
From a surface reading God says "yes here is the tree of knowledge of good and evil". "Here is what you do not have". "You have everything yet you cannot have this". What is God actually saying?
Then the serpent is there IN THE GARDEN! Don't mean to shout. But why is he there where God placed him-man. Do we think God didn't know the serpent was there? Did God think that the serpent wouldn't do what he did?
I believe, and this is very elementary, and logical that this is the plan for man to become one in Christ. To dethrone the serpent out of Christ's rightful place in the mind as clearly as 2 Thessalonians details in the second chapter. The will of man and woman meeting the Lord in the air, becoming one in unity and one as they always have been, yet know clearly face to face seeing what the dragon is. And bring forth the man child. The Christ.
And the flood of many waters will lift the ark above the earth and above the mountains, (which are not mentioned till after the flood started). And the flood of the word of God will lift the righteous and bring the righteous back down again. And it will happen again. But there is nothing like the first time.
Like the first born. Like the son of man which are many but one all over the world.. Like the only begotten of God. Retaining our individuals and that which works in our hearts so clearly. Yet our minds doubt ourselves. And the greatness of the Christ within us. Did Jesus not cry? Did Jesus not get angry? Did Jesus not have compassion as we do?
This is the Christ along with the wisdom of God that makes foolish the wisdom of this world. Why, there are sons and then there are Sons. We are all in this together and no one will be left out. Even those before the flood are redeemed. Even those of Sodom and Gomorrah are redeemed in Jesus' own words. Can he not save even them that are so lost that it takes knocking them off their high horse and blinded by the light till a brother touched his life, and we have this record today.
I wonder how many more times this has happened that we have not seen. I wonder how many times it has happened before our eyes and we did not see it. I also wonder about those who taste and step back because of fear of the unknown. Fear of loosing something that God would never take away. There will be things lost, but much more gained as selfishness and self righteousness falls to pieces in his presence. Dieing here and now so that the new man and woman can live. And sure we all make mistakes.
God's grace and mercy and Love are more then enough to cover it. Those in the old testament couldn't see this because of the vail upon their eyes. Still today there remains for many the vail which is not taken away ..... yet.
That man of sin, that son of perdition will die with the breath of the Christ, the double-edged sword coming out of his mouth-out of your mouth. cause others can only brush up against the Spirit that is within and stir up it's heat. And burn the bad and redeem the good.
A transformation into a new creation that has always been there yet sleeping as a seed waiting to be born. And when this world has passed there will be nothing to hold it back.
So Eve, the mother of all living breathing life into man. The Spirit of God which is feminine in nature. Wisdom which is feminine. God knows we have enough masculine gods around. Put these two together in one person and fasten your frigging seat belt. Cuz it's one hell of a ride and no one will miss it and it is unlimited even after our flesh fails. We will continue as one in Christ where there is neither male nor female.
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ChattyKathy
You have some great truths in there I believe.
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T-Bone
Some great points here! And I think back to Genesis 1:27 "...God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." [NASV] The difference in the genders [intellectually, emotionally, etc.] are different aspects of the same image of God. Viva la difference!
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Abigail
Okay - I have a few things I want to add - I hope I can do so in an organized fashion. :)
I'm going to start with a single Hebrew word - Sechina. I believe the literal translation is akin to "the Divine presence that dwells within". It is often described as a separate spiritual entity - but I believe this is done simply to help us undertand certain parables, whereas in reality, it is simply descriptive of one aspect or characteristic of God. Sechina is often thought of in the feminine, as it was Eve who also represented God's femine side (let us create man in our image - male and female created he them). Biblically, it is the "cloud" over the tent as the Jews wandered the desert.
It is thought that what drove Eve to eat of the Tree was the desire to immerse herself in all the beauty of the world - her desire to experience everything. This is attributed to the Shechina within her and the Shechina's desire to permeate all. However, because Eve ate the fruit at the improper time, she imprisoned the Sechina and made her subject to the male aspect and man.
It was Sarah who first began the process of freeing the Sechina. Abraham himself could not do it, in that he is male - but he empowered Sarah to do it when he sent her to Pharoah. Sarah went to Pharoh (descended into the lair of the snake) and resisted the lure. She decended into darkness, but maintained her connection to the light (Abraham).
It is said that Abraham's hospitality was to all men - that he welcomed all. Sarah, on the other hand was more discerning. She only desired to welcome those she perceived as Godly. So it is said that it is Abraham that draws people to the light and it is Sarah that cleanses and heals them.
Rebecca and Isaac is said to be the parable of the uniting of heaven and earth.
Rachel and Leah tell the story of the Shechina also. Rachel is the Shechina as it descends to take care of her children as they wander in Exile. Leah is lofty, she rises above and is what we stive for but still have not ascended to.
Miriam is the guardian of the promise which will bring us from the darkness of exile to the great light of freedom
and on and on it goes.
I leave you with This Article for your reading enjoyment. :)
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sirguessalot
reading along
taking a lunch break
and i thought this was worth repeating
and i think it bears repeating how not only deeply jewish christianity is at its roots (such as Genesis)
but how deeply feminine it also is...especially in the capacity to handle suffering, in general
though i think pain and suffering may be one of the most difficult subjects of all to approach these days
especially in the context of things like sexuality and spiritual love
...
i also wish i knew how to share what i understand about all this without it becoming a monologue
cuz i think this thread is an amazing tapestry of a more open dialogue
and i would hate to derail it
so here is that thread on eros and agape
peace
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dancing
a monologue sounds pretty good
you know how excited I get
gettting a little even toned sounds good
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ChattyKathy
I have things to attend to but I see Abi posted some stuff, can't wait. (not to snub others, but I was waiting for her to return)
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dancing
Speaking of women in the bible.
It's interesting to note that the angels appeared to Mary then Joseph.
Kind of different and then when God talked with Adam and Eve.
Also this is very interesting and I think is talking much more about our birth and not Jesus' birth.
Although it includes it as well.
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The pain as sirg mentioned is real, whether physical or spiritual.
But worth it.
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