Our sages explain that G-d commanded Adam not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and to relay the message to his wife. However, rather than entrusting Eve with G-d's exact commandment, Adam informed her that they were forbidden to touch the tree. . . . [interesting, because I don't recall VPW saying ADAM changed it, I thought it was EVE who changed it]
CES (and NO -- they are NOT the *God-breathed* WORD-FOR-OUR-TIME) ---
maintain that Adam was told, and he did an EXTREMELY poor job,
of communicating it to Eve. ;)
Meebe they agree with your sages????
Hmmmmm. Seems communication *break-downs* between men and women,
have been going on forever.
I'll have to look up the exact reference, but it makes a helluva-lotta-sense. :)
Interestingly, this portrayal of Eve as an icon of feminine deceit is featured more in Christian liturgy than in Jewish works, which may be linked to Judaism's divergent interpretation of the Original Sin. According to the Torah, the story of Adam and Eve is far more complex than a simple "she led him to sin" tale.. . . . .
Unfortunately though this may so of Christian interpretation down to the present day, it wasn't always the case. The Christianities that fell by the wayside in the historical process of Christian orthodoxy's ascendancy reflected interpretations that were as divergent as those among the movements of Judaism. Women held very prominent and powerful roles among these lost Christianities. Among the earliest "secular" accounts of Pliny the Younger, in his correspondance to Trajan, depicts the interrogation of a woman "minister' , most likely a representative of the Marcionite movement in that area of Pontus over which Pliny exercised authority (in addition to the fact of orthodoxy's indignant disapproval (as reflected in Epiphanius' outrage)that the Marcionite church would allow women to exercise the ritual of baptism).
A Marcionite creation account preserved by Eznik Kolb more or less depicts the Genesis garden account as a fierce contending between a god and a goddess battling for their son Adam's adoration and loyalty. The creation account begins with both the world-creator and the feminine "Matter" collaborating on the creation of Adam,- as a husband and wife - after which Jehovah schemes that Adam should worship Him and no other - including his co-author. "Matter" catches wind of this, upon observing that Adam was acting particularly withdrawn toward her (Jehovah had just threatened Adam with death if he worshipped others besides him, esp. Mother-Earth) and decides to one-up him. She creates a multitude of gods and goddesses so as to so confuse Adam, so that he can't find Jehovah (lol). It's a funny story.
I know it's not proper to follow a post with a post, but because of that "War of the Roses" creation account, I've got this funny scene emblazened in my mind,- in the cartoony art style of those "Watchtower" and "Awake!" mags - of Adam in a hysterical pose of tearing his hair out undergoing a Joe Cocker-like kiniption fit, before a backdrop-collage of deities and statues flooded all around him - an angry, red-faced, long-bearded god among them blowing steam out his ears - and off in a distant corner, the plump, smiling goddess snickering in utter scheming delight behind a tree.
Humor can be divine. The more extreme it pushes the edge of the serious and the conventional,
After Adan and Eve “fell” from the presence of God and<A name=LPHit65> became mortal, we needed a Savior so we could live again andhttp://""' target="_blank"> return to our Father in Heaven. Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the world was created..
*****posted by ABIGAIL******* who should have had her coffee first!
Danny, your creation story reminds me a bit of the Lilith story in reverse. :D
Mo, There is a similar belief in Judaism, in that the eating of the tree of knowledge was always a part of the plan, as it was a step forward in "evolution". It was that fruit which gave Adam and Eve the higher knowledge that other animals do not have. However, the plan was for them to eat it on the Sabbath and where they blew it was in eating of it too soon.
Roy, I too enjoy the various accounts. I think they all carry aspects of truth.
"There is wisdom here, he thought, but wisdom gone mad. There is beauty, magnificent beauty, but she is shattered . . . . .
But when he looked in Genesis and in the Holy Zohar, he saw it clearly: Olam HaTohu--"the World of Chaos." . . . . .
But the World of Tohu is entirely beyond the finite being. It is a world emanated from the Source of All Worlds before finitude existed, before bounds were set to reality. . . .
That the Infinite Light is everywhere is an axiom of the Kabbalah, but the Ari made that light immanent, almost tangible, by declaring it to be held captive within every object, every event, even within evil itself. . .
In technical jargon, data without meaning is called "noise". When it happens in our own reality, we call it "evil". Confusion unarrested and running wild.. . . .
The sparks are G-dliness . . . . . they are exiled in a world where they are out of context, held captive within their own confusion.
Evil is then an artifact, essentially fictitious, arising from the temporary state of disorder. Reorder the world and evil disappears as though it never was.
To find infinity within each event of our world takes no more than an objective human mind.
The material you've cited seems very reminscient of Khabbalistic material (at least according to what little I know). The Jewish Merkabah mystics - possibly the precursors to the Kabalistic mvoements - strike me as a very fascinating lot. They were thought to have exercised a form of glossolalia ("tongues"), of which the "Testament of Job" is thought to be a remnant of their literature. In that work, each of the three daughters of Job are depicted as uttering the tongue of an angel, and announcing prophecies.
There are 613 Mitsvah listed in the Torah. These can be divided into three broad categories. One is as a benefit to man in much the same way we make "rules" for our children to follow. They allow for safety, health, and healthy family boundaries and dynamics. Another is to create a connection with God. And the third is to refine creation by focusing our energy and pursuits into positive things. It is this refining process that heals.
This is from "How Good Do We Have To Be" by Harold Kushner.
One theologian has pointed out the unusual Hebrew word used for pain in Gen. 3:16,17 when God decrees Adam's and Eve's fate is also used in Gen 6:6, to describe the pain GOD feels at seeing how badly his world has turned out. Could it be, that when God tells Adam and Eve that sexuality, parenthood and creativity will be painful, He is not so much punishing them as saying to them, "You ate of that tree, because you wanted to be like God, knowing Good and Evil? Well, you're about to find out frustrating is to be like God, to create something and then give up control of what you have created, to want something to turn out as perfectlyas you pictured it in your mind and then see how far short the reality falls of your original intention. There is more pain than you could ever imagine in knowing about Good and Evil."
For those of a Judeo-Christian background, I would recommend the above book. It just may shed some light on that story. Then again, it may not.
The author goes on to suggest, the story of Adam and Eve is NOT about people being punished for ONE mistake (which would be a bit harsh, in my estimation), but rather, a type of graduation. A graduation from being solely simple animals, mating only to reproduce, etc., to a knowledge of Good and Evil. To him, it is not about the fall of man, but the emergence of humanity.
I also don't think it a one time offense thing. But more of the developing of what we would be. But I get careful in such words because I don't agree with where this can lead in thinking. Nor am I prepared to have a knowledgeable conversation about the same.
If one considers that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is also the tree of life, it brings a whole different perspective. And different perspectives of the tree of life.
Can you believe it? That is actually the real, genuine Sushi posting in the doctrinal forums!!!!!!! :D
I like the Jewish understanding of the eating of the tree of knowledge on a number of levels. First, because it leaves one with a better impression of God, IMO. I have always had difficulty with the notion that God would punish all of mankind for the actions of two. However, there are natural consequences for our actions that are in a sense passed down to our children, because our actions do affect them.
Secondly, in the version I have always understood via Christianity (with which I acknowledge my experience is limited), it sounds as if God was somehow setting man up. Why put the fruit there at all, if He doesn't want it eaten?
Additionally, I do not like the way the Christian version (as I understand it) leaves the woman as the ultimate "fall guy". This concept has been used throughout the ages to belittle and subjugate women. It has also been used to down play the extremely important role women have played in religion and God's plan for mankind.
In Judaism, Eve is honored as the mother of all things living. She is also honored for having the desire to grow beyond her current existence.
Sarah is honored as a prophetess whose visions even superceded Abraham's. In addition, she is honored as the first woman to begin repairing "the curse". [in that, although the fruit was always intended to be eaten, it was not supposed to occur until the Sabbath. Eve's mistake was not that she ate it, but that she ate it too soon].
Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Miriam, on and on - the women too receive their honor and recognition.
Interesting idea, Clay. I will have to think on that one.
In Kabbalah, the tree of life is the "map of creation". It is a diagram the explains how God and man communicate, how man ascends upward toward God and descends downward toward earth. It also describes attributes of God. I am not explaining it well, unfortunately. It is a concept that for me, is somewhat difficult to understand.
Hey Abigail thanks for sharing The Curse of Eve article - very interesting stuff!
...G-d said that this is a curse -- something negative, reflecting the negative change that occurred in creation with the first sin. In other words, something to change.
Fighting inequality, arguing your point, revolting against the old guard -- this is the stuff Judaism is made of. G-d doesn't want a nation who will take its curses lying down. If He did, He wouldn't have chosen the Jews...
Sometimes I think I have that whipped-pup attitude about our fallen nature - but I find the attitude expressed in the above quote inspiring.
I'm glad you enjoyed it T. When my kids are argumentative, it can really irritate me. But then I say - it's in their blood they can't help it. LOL LOL And I am reminded that it is okay to argue with God. God is gonna win the argument, I'm sure - but I can still do it. :D
I would add - I always had a problem with the fallen nature concept. I get that we are not perfect. But the concept that we are somehow born in sin or born with sin always made me feel unclean.
I think there is a difference between being human and therefore unperfected and in being sinful.
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dmiller
Good topic!! CES has a spin on it as well -----
CES (and NO -- they are NOT the *God-breathed* WORD-FOR-OUR-TIME) ---
maintain that Adam was told, and he did an EXTREMELY poor job,
of communicating it to Eve. ;)
Meebe they agree with your sages????
Hmmmmm. Seems communication *break-downs* between men and women,
have been going on forever.
I'll have to look up the exact reference, but it makes a helluva-lotta-sense. :)
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Abigail
Look forward to hearing more from you D. :)
I'm going to post some more to, on the healing part, as I have time.
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TheInvisibleDan
Unfortunately though this may so of Christian interpretation down to the present day, it wasn't always the case. The Christianities that fell by the wayside in the historical process of Christian orthodoxy's ascendancy reflected interpretations that were as divergent as those among the movements of Judaism. Women held very prominent and powerful roles among these lost Christianities. Among the earliest "secular" accounts of Pliny the Younger, in his correspondance to Trajan, depicts the interrogation of a woman "minister' , most likely a representative of the Marcionite movement in that area of Pontus over which Pliny exercised authority (in addition to the fact of orthodoxy's indignant disapproval (as reflected in Epiphanius' outrage)that the Marcionite church would allow women to exercise the ritual of baptism).
A Marcionite creation account preserved by Eznik Kolb more or less depicts the Genesis garden account as a fierce contending between a god and a goddess battling for their son Adam's adoration and loyalty. The creation account begins with both the world-creator and the feminine "Matter" collaborating on the creation of Adam,- as a husband and wife - after which Jehovah schemes that Adam should worship Him and no other - including his co-author. "Matter" catches wind of this, upon observing that Adam was acting particularly withdrawn toward her (Jehovah had just threatened Adam with death if he worshipped others besides him, esp. Mother-Earth) and decides to one-up him. She creates a multitude of gods and goddesses so as to so confuse Adam, so that he can't find Jehovah (lol). It's a funny story.
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
I know it's not proper to follow a post with a post, but because of that "War of the Roses" creation account, I've got this funny scene emblazened in my mind,- in the cartoony art style of those "Watchtower" and "Awake!" mags - of Adam in a hysterical pose of tearing his hair out undergoing a Joe Cocker-like kiniption fit, before a backdrop-collage of deities and statues flooded all around him - an angry, red-faced, long-bearded god among them blowing steam out his ears - and off in a distant corner, the plump, smiling goddess snickering in utter scheming delight behind a tree.
Humor can be divine. The more extreme it pushes the edge of the serious and the conventional,
the greater the resulting ectasy.
Danny
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templelady
The LDS Church has a totally different belief system about "the Fall"
The fall of Adam and Eve was foreseen by Heavenly Father and “was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us” (Gospel Principles, p. 33). We accepted this condition in the spirit world when we supported Heavenly Father’s plan.
“Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden” (Gospel Principles, p. 33).
After Adan and Eve “fell” from the presence of God and<A name=LPHit65> became mortal, we needed a Savior so we could live again andhttp://""' target="_blank"> return to our Father in Heaven. Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the world was created..
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year2027
God first
Beloved Abigail
God loves us all my dear friend
I love to read the many truths about the fall of mankind
It makes me sad that the bible only has a small part of the story
Like the part were Adam and Eve try-ed to repent by standing in two diff rivers
Or that Eve was willing to give up her life so God might let Adam back into the Eden
Or that Eve was tempted three years before she gave in
Or that the angels left her alone when the angels were told to guard her
or that she lived on one side of Eden and Adam live on the other side
She ruled one side while Adam ruled the other side
and many more
but now I can add Adam did not tell her the rule right
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sushi
*****posted by ABIGAIL******* who should have had her coffee first!
Danny, your creation story reminds me a bit of the Lilith story in reverse. :D
Mo, There is a similar belief in Judaism, in that the eating of the tree of knowledge was always a part of the plan, as it was a step forward in "evolution". It was that fruit which gave Adam and Eve the higher knowledge that other animals do not have. However, the plan was for them to eat it on the Sabbath and where they blew it was in eating of it too soon.
Roy, I too enjoy the various accounts. I think they all carry aspects of truth.
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Abigail
More from here
Fallen Sparks
by Tzvi Freeman
Experts
"There is wisdom here, he thought, but wisdom gone mad. There is beauty, magnificent beauty, but she is shattered . . . . .
But when he looked in Genesis and in the Holy Zohar, he saw it clearly: Olam HaTohu--"the World of Chaos." . . . . .
But the World of Tohu is entirely beyond the finite being. It is a world emanated from the Source of All Worlds before finitude existed, before bounds were set to reality. . . .
That the Infinite Light is everywhere is an axiom of the Kabbalah, but the Ari made that light immanent, almost tangible, by declaring it to be held captive within every object, every event, even within evil itself. . .
In technical jargon, data without meaning is called "noise". When it happens in our own reality, we call it "evil". Confusion unarrested and running wild.. . . .
The sparks are G-dliness . . . . . they are exiled in a world where they are out of context, held captive within their own confusion.
Evil is then an artifact, essentially fictitious, arising from the temporary state of disorder. Reorder the world and evil disappears as though it never was.
To find infinity within each event of our world takes no more than an objective human mind.
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TheInvisibleDan
Abigail,
The material you've cited seems very reminscient of Khabbalistic material (at least according to what little I know). The Jewish Merkabah mystics - possibly the precursors to the Kabalistic mvoements - strike me as a very fascinating lot. They were thought to have exercised a form of glossolalia ("tongues"), of which the "Testament of Job" is thought to be a remnant of their literature. In that work, each of the three daughters of Job are depicted as uttering the tongue of an angel, and announcing prophecies.
Danny
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Abigail
It is Danny, it is. I do a great amount of my studying from a Chassdic website I was fortunate enough to find a year or two ago.
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Abigail
There are 613 Mitsvah listed in the Torah. These can be divided into three broad categories. One is as a benefit to man in much the same way we make "rules" for our children to follow. They allow for safety, health, and healthy family boundaries and dynamics. Another is to create a connection with God. And the third is to refine creation by focusing our energy and pursuits into positive things. It is this refining process that heals.
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Sushi
This is from "How Good Do We Have To Be" by Harold Kushner.
One theologian has pointed out the unusual Hebrew word used for pain in Gen. 3:16,17 when God decrees Adam's and Eve's fate is also used in Gen 6:6, to describe the pain GOD feels at seeing how badly his world has turned out. Could it be, that when God tells Adam and Eve that sexuality, parenthood and creativity will be painful, He is not so much punishing them as saying to them, "You ate of that tree, because you wanted to be like God, knowing Good and Evil? Well, you're about to find out frustrating is to be like God, to create something and then give up control of what you have created, to want something to turn out as perfectlyas you pictured it in your mind and then see how far short the reality falls of your original intention. There is more pain than you could ever imagine in knowing about Good and Evil."
For those of a Judeo-Christian background, I would recommend the above book. It just may shed some light on that story. Then again, it may not.
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ChattyKathy
After reading this thread I am reminded I should come to Doctrinal more often.
The idea of eating the fruit and consequences being part of the plan and the allowance to choose is most logical, IHMO.
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Sushi
The author goes on to suggest, the story of Adam and Eve is NOT about people being punished for ONE mistake (which would be a bit harsh, in my estimation), but rather, a type of graduation. A graduation from being solely simple animals, mating only to reproduce, etc., to a knowledge of Good and Evil. To him, it is not about the fall of man, but the emergence of humanity.
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ChattyKathy
I also don't think it a one time offense thing. But more of the developing of what we would be. But I get careful in such words because I don't agree with where this can lead in thinking. Nor am I prepared to have a knowledgeable conversation about the same.
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dancing
If one considers that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is also the tree of life, it brings a whole different perspective. And different perspectives of the tree of life.
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Abigail
Can you believe it? That is actually the real, genuine Sushi posting in the doctrinal forums!!!!!!! :D
I like the Jewish understanding of the eating of the tree of knowledge on a number of levels. First, because it leaves one with a better impression of God, IMO. I have always had difficulty with the notion that God would punish all of mankind for the actions of two. However, there are natural consequences for our actions that are in a sense passed down to our children, because our actions do affect them.
Secondly, in the version I have always understood via Christianity (with which I acknowledge my experience is limited), it sounds as if God was somehow setting man up. Why put the fruit there at all, if He doesn't want it eaten?
Additionally, I do not like the way the Christian version (as I understand it) leaves the woman as the ultimate "fall guy". This concept has been used throughout the ages to belittle and subjugate women. It has also been used to down play the extremely important role women have played in religion and God's plan for mankind.
In Judaism, Eve is honored as the mother of all things living. She is also honored for having the desire to grow beyond her current existence.
Sarah is honored as a prophetess whose visions even superceded Abraham's. In addition, she is honored as the first woman to begin repairing "the curse". [in that, although the fruit was always intended to be eaten, it was not supposed to occur until the Sabbath. Eve's mistake was not that she ate it, but that she ate it too soon].
Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Miriam, on and on - the women too receive their honor and recognition.
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Abigail
Interesting idea, Clay. I will have to think on that one.
In Kabbalah, the tree of life is the "map of creation". It is a diagram the explains how God and man communicate, how man ascends upward toward God and descends downward toward earth. It also describes attributes of God. I am not explaining it well, unfortunately. It is a concept that for me, is somewhat difficult to understand.
Jacob's ladder is the "tree of life".
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dancing
Reminds me of eros and agape.
eros ascending
agape descinding
one of todd's threads
the creation is within i believe
the moon and the sun and the stars
the beasts and the rest
genesis is becomeing more of a parable to me
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dancing
It's interesting that heal and blessing is first used with Abraham and Sarah.
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T-Bone
Hey Abigail thanks for sharing The Curse of Eve article - very interesting stuff!
Sometimes I think I have that whipped-pup attitude about our fallen nature - but I find the attitude expressed in the above quote inspiring.
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Abigail
I'm glad you enjoyed it T. When my kids are argumentative, it can really irritate me. But then I say - it's in their blood they can't help it. LOL LOL And I am reminded that it is okay to argue with God. God is gonna win the argument, I'm sure - but I can still do it. :D
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Abigail
I would add - I always had a problem with the fallen nature concept. I get that we are not perfect. But the concept that we are somehow born in sin or born with sin always made me feel unclean.
I think there is a difference between being human and therefore unperfected and in being sinful.
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ChattyKathy
I've fallen behind, but I do want to come back to this, it's quite an interesting thread Abi.
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