Abigail, thanks for sharing that interesting stuff on Sechina - and that neat website too! I'm going to check out some more of it - there's a lot of info on there - I was reading the Jewish Bible with commentary and scanned through some interesting articles - including one by Yanki Tauber entitled "6 Kinds of Perfection" of which the following quote is from there - I thought it tied into our earlier talk about perfection:
Adam was the original model, the "handiwork of G-d." You can't get more perfect than that. So perfect was he, that he couldn't stand it, and went looking for imperfection -- for something to repair, something to achieve, something to do. Still, it's a good thing that we, as a race, started off perfect, if only so that we should understand where our yen for perfection comes from, and that we can, in fact, attain it.
(((Kathy)))) you are sweet. I am, unfortunetly going to be busy and gone a bit for the next five days or so. I have a new brochure to design of the boy's school and our family is going camping this weekend. However, I too am enjoying this thread and will continue to contribute as I can - bearing in mind I will not have access to a computer over the weekend.
I'm just getting back, I bet I missed you already. What a wonderful reason to have to miss adding to the thread. :)
It is said that Abraham's hospitality was to all men - that he welcomed all. Sarah, on the other hand was more discerning. She only desired to welcome those she perceived as Godly. So it is said that it is Abraham that draws people to the light and it is Sarah that cleanses and heals them.
How well you conveyed the difference in the two. A difference I've not seen quite like that before. But it seems there should have been more of Sarah than simply her part of the believing parenting of old age. And perhaps I've known more, but I've taken quite a bit out of storage and toss it into a local dumpster and am rebuilding.
I need to ponder that other stuff, it's new for me Abi. Incredibly thought provoking. I keep rereading it and can't put my words together yet.
I do know this, I no longer believe the woman is to walk a pace behind. I have robbed myself and others in my life due to wrong submissive thinking. I believe God created man in his own image, and that was male and female with no variance of importance. We are to compliment each other, not lord over.
Todd, it is good to see you again! I read the thread you linked to, but it requires more thought than my brain is capable of at the moment.
Clay, interesting reference. I did a little bit of research on Rev 12, but haven't come up with much yet. What I do know is that in Judaism the sun represents God and the moon is very important in that it is the basis for the calendar. I also found a references that said John is purported to have been a very knowledgeable scholar of the Kabbalah.
T-Bone, I am glad you are enjoying Chabad. I have learned a great deal from that website.
Kathy,
The credit for "noticing the difference" goes to the Chabad website. It was there I came across the concept. I simply shortened the explanation and put it into my own words.
"But it seems there should have been more of Sarah than simply her part of the believing parenting of old age."
Ah - but there is a LOT more to Sarah than that. "believing to be a parent" is TWI doctrine. Sarah is said to have been more spiritually attuned than Abraham, she was a prophetess. She faced Pharoh and returned unscathed.
The Midrash and oral traditions teach that a "cloud of glory" hovered over Sarah's tent for as long as she lived.
It was Sarah who convinced Abraham to marry Hagar (I previously posted about the import of Hagar and Ishmael) and it was Sarah who understood when it was time to send Hagar and Ishmael away.
It was Sarah who took the first steps to "undo the curse of subjection" - God told Abraham "Whatever Sarah says to you, do"
I knew some of those things of her, yet somehow had allowed the focus to be as instructed. Well I reckon I have more stuff to head out towards the dumpster with. :unsure:
I'll just chat and know when you can that you will catch up.
Todd,
I understand what you are referring to I think. That inward capacity given a woman to suffer, seems no matter your understanding, it's too plain to see God used women as examples of certain forbearance, one all can benefit from.
And being so imperfect I think pain and suffering is part of the ride. It's how we wear it that can benefit or hinder those around us, as well ourselves.
I'll look at that thread sometime but right now I've catch up still.
Dancing,
I believe your observation of the angels appearing to Mary first is part of the richness of how God showed us all were important. But I was sidetracked with my perspective.
Off track a tad perhaps but your post made me think of the woman having to suffer physical things not originally intended and how even I have joked I was going to thank her for all she gave but let her know I was not pleased with some of the crap we women had to suffer due it. :)
T-Bone,
What a cool mindset. A hunger to make something right would be of great benefit to the person but I don't know about the being bothered due to having a state of perfection. I think it would be a little more rewarding than that. Just my thoughts right now as I continue to think this thread.
Dancing,
I meant to say I was talking about Eve on the suffering thing.
And to anyone reading have a good night but they are moving me into a new office tomorrow and I must get some rest, while being moved you can't be working, and funny how things are still there.
Deeper than the wisdom to create is the wisdom to repair.
And so, G-d built failure into His world, so that He could give Man His
deepest wisdom. To repair.
Wow, Abigail - that's some heavy ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find that very intriguing to think about - most of my career has been in very technical type of things - and you know a lot of stuff is either not installed/assembled right or it breaks down...But I find it LOTS of FUN tapping into the critical/creative function of my brain! Yup - very intriguing quote you have there.
I too am intrigued by that statement. Yet am not sure I understand it fully. God building failure wouldn't attribute evil to him it sounds rather it would attribute free will from him.
kathy, it is not about attributing evil to God, but about God giving us the tools and opportunity to gain wisdom.
Here's another one I came across this morning in my email:
"When through repentance you extricate yourself from your own spiritual
exile, you will thereby liberate "your G-d" - the Shechinah, the
source of your soul - from His exile too]."
-Iggeret Hateshuvah
I found this interesting on a couple of levels. One has to do with a somewhat different or explanation of, or another attribute of Shechina.
The context of this has to do with "sin" and "repentance". I prefer not to define those terms, because they can mean such vastly different things to different people, and so what is sin to one, may not be to another.
However, the idea is that when you sin, you draw down Shechinah and entrap it/exhile it from God. But when you repent you release the Shechinah from it's exhile.
If I only read that post and nothing prior it is almost like Shechinah is part of the soul. Yet I know that over simplifies things but we can cut off ourselves so deeply our souls ache for what to us is godliness. I just wanted to think out loud, it won't necessarily be right. :)
Ok read the articles, although i'm sure there is more to be learned.
What exactly was cursed?
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Seems to me the serpent and the ground is what was cursed.
And I don't think this is a separate entity-Satan-from ourselves.
Just as the ground is not that which is under our feet but our minds.
Therefore we look to the spirit for blessings.
Not sure exactly how Judaism words the curses along with what the kjv says.
And I'm not putting it down but gathering more light.
Here's a good liturgy of the mind at work...
Isaiah 24
1Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
I think this is about the birth of the spirit...
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And i also think this is speaking of what can happen now here in Rev 22
Revelation 22
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Although it is quite the deal to get here in our minds.
Any thoughts Abigail? I'm not held to or limited to anything, but ready to see more.
Kathy, I don't think anything is wrong with how you said it. We are trying to put into words, and therefore concrete terms, that which is not concrete - so we use what works for us.
"Seems to me the serpent and the ground is what was cursed.
And I don't think this is a separate entity-Satan-from ourselves.
Just as the ground is not that which is under our feet but our minds.
Therefore we look to the spirit for blessings."
What is cursed depends on one's perspective and the topic I guess. The idea that initially started this thread, (though we have strayed away from it, which is fine) was a woman's subjection to man. The idea being that it wasn't God's original plan for woman to be in subjection, but that was one of the consequences of Eve's actions. Then Sarah was the first woman to begin to undo that.
Beyond that, I agree about Satan not being a separate entity from ourselves and so would much of Judaism. Goes back to duality, as does your last post regarding the carnal mind and the spiritual mind.
Okay, I think I will have to chew the rest a bit, Clay.
Clay, how interesting that I received in my email today, a Torah lesson dealing with desolation and destruction that you may find interesting in light of what you quoted from Isaiah.
Here is what I got from it:
Within every one of us there is a core sanctuary for the Sechina (God's dwelling place). It is a sacred place, and remains so even when we exile ourselves from God.
All desloation and destruction is limited to the physical ... buildings, walls. In a spiritual sense, it is limited to that aspect of us that is not a part of the sacred place, the parts of us that are the "satan" side of our dual nature. But that sanctuary always remains and is always holy.
Beyond that, I agree about Satan not being a separate entity from ourselves and so would much of Judaism. Goes back to duality, as does your last post regarding the carnal mind and the spiritual mind.
Sounds not unlike the Buddhist view of yin and yang.
I'm sure you had a wonderful time; your family pictures always reveals that to me.
Cool, on your thoughts of my way of seeing it in that post. It seems its something of us I already know of and think I'm trying to make it fit into my understanding, yet don't think it's exactly the definition I've tried putting on it yet. It's a work in progress type of thing for me I reckon. <_<
they stole it from us! It is really all Jewish food
Okay, back to Eve for a bit. I came across something that I thought would be interesting, at least to the women, given what we were taught in TWI about a "woman's place".
"eizer knegdo" can be translated as either a helpmate TO him, or a helpmate AGAINST him. According to the commentaries, there are times that one is most helpful by being supportive of one's spouse, and there are times when what is needed means going against the will of one’s spouse.
This, again goes back to the notion that woman was not initially created to be submissive to man. In addition, while men were commanded to marry and have children, women were not. This means, a man has to convince the woman of why it is she should want to marry him and help him.
Point of intrest it is mention in midrashim and kabbalistic works that Lilith was in fact Adam's first wife, she is concidered to be the mother of all demons. She wanted to be concidered Adam's equal if not superior and when she insited on being on top during sex she was replaced by the more submissive Eve.
****This is not part of the Talmud, nor is it considered to be a midrash******
Many of the famous people who have decied Judaism and the study of the Kabbalah have tried to reinvent her and use her as a symbol of femine power, a number of female musical artists participated in a concert tour called "Lilith Fair" Sara McLachlan formed the festivile after becoming annoyed at the mistreatment of women in the music industry.
I have come across the Lilith story too, but found nothing particularly useful in it, so left it be. In fact, if you search the Chassidic site where I do much of my learning, you aren't likely to find her mentioned at all, at least I haven't.
I am not studying the "trendy" stuff, nor am I particularly interested in it. That is one of the reasons why I stick so closely with this Chassidic website - because I believe it truly is the Jewish teachings of Torah, Midrash, and Kabbalah as have been passed down historically and is not in any way affiliated with the trendy new age Kabbalah stuff.
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Abigail, thanks for sharing that interesting stuff on Sechina - and that neat website too! I'm going to check out some more of it - there's a lot of info on there - I was reading the Jewish Bible with commentary and scanned through some interesting articles - including one by Yanki Tauber entitled "6 Kinds of Perfection" of which the following quote is from there - I thought it tied into our earlier talk about perfection:
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ChattyKathy
I'm just getting back, I bet I missed you already. What a wonderful reason to have to miss adding to the thread. :)
Well I've some catch up to do.
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ChattyKathy
It is said that Abraham's hospitality was to all men - that he welcomed all. Sarah, on the other hand was more discerning. She only desired to welcome those she perceived as Godly. So it is said that it is Abraham that draws people to the light and it is Sarah that cleanses and heals them.
How well you conveyed the difference in the two. A difference I've not seen quite like that before. But it seems there should have been more of Sarah than simply her part of the believing parenting of old age. And perhaps I've known more, but I've taken quite a bit out of storage and toss it into a local dumpster and am rebuilding.
I need to ponder that other stuff, it's new for me Abi. Incredibly thought provoking. I keep rereading it and can't put my words together yet.
I'm still reading.
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ChattyKathy
I do know this, I no longer believe the woman is to walk a pace behind. I have robbed myself and others in my life due to wrong submissive thinking. I believe God created man in his own image, and that was male and female with no variance of importance. We are to compliment each other, not lord over.
Back as I read, just felt like adding that.
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Abigail
Todd, it is good to see you again! I read the thread you linked to, but it requires more thought than my brain is capable of at the moment.
Clay, interesting reference. I did a little bit of research on Rev 12, but haven't come up with much yet. What I do know is that in Judaism the sun represents God and the moon is very important in that it is the basis for the calendar. I also found a references that said John is purported to have been a very knowledgeable scholar of the Kabbalah.
T-Bone, I am glad you are enjoying Chabad. I have learned a great deal from that website.
Kathy,
The credit for "noticing the difference" goes to the Chabad website. It was there I came across the concept. I simply shortened the explanation and put it into my own words.
"But it seems there should have been more of Sarah than simply her part of the believing parenting of old age."
Ah - but there is a LOT more to Sarah than that. "believing to be a parent" is TWI doctrine. Sarah is said to have been more spiritually attuned than Abraham, she was a prophetess. She faced Pharoh and returned unscathed.
The Midrash and oral traditions teach that a "cloud of glory" hovered over Sarah's tent for as long as she lived.
It was Sarah who convinced Abraham to marry Hagar (I previously posted about the import of Hagar and Ishmael) and it was Sarah who understood when it was time to send Hagar and Ishmael away.
It was Sarah who took the first steps to "undo the curse of subjection" - God told Abraham "Whatever Sarah says to you, do"
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ChattyKathy
Simply fantastic, I got it that time around.
I had to post should you still be here Abi. :)
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ChattyKathy
Abi,
I knew some of those things of her, yet somehow had allowed the focus to be as instructed. Well I reckon I have more stuff to head out towards the dumpster with. :unsure:
I'll just chat and know when you can that you will catch up.
Todd,
I understand what you are referring to I think. That inward capacity given a woman to suffer, seems no matter your understanding, it's too plain to see God used women as examples of certain forbearance, one all can benefit from.
And being so imperfect I think pain and suffering is part of the ride. It's how we wear it that can benefit or hinder those around us, as well ourselves.
I'll look at that thread sometime but right now I've catch up still.
Dancing,
I believe your observation of the angels appearing to Mary first is part of the richness of how God showed us all were important. But I was sidetracked with my perspective.
Off track a tad perhaps but your post made me think of the woman having to suffer physical things not originally intended and how even I have joked I was going to thank her for all she gave but let her know I was not pleased with some of the crap we women had to suffer due it. :)
T-Bone,
What a cool mindset. A hunger to make something right would be of great benefit to the person but I don't know about the being bothered due to having a state of perfection. I think it would be a little more rewarding than that. Just my thoughts right now as I continue to think this thread.
Dancing,
I meant to say I was talking about Eve on the suffering thing.
And to anyone reading have a good night but they are moving me into a new office tomorrow and I must get some rest, while being moved you can't be working, and funny how things are still there.
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Abigail
Repair
------
Deeper than the wisdom to create is the wisdom to repair.
And so, G-d built failure into His world, so that He could give Man His
deepest wisdom. To repair.
A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe
-words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman
Tammuz 17, 5766 * July 13, 2006
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dancing
Sometimes destroying is repairing.
Destroy this temple and rebuild it.
If God is the oven then I am the bread.
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T-Bone
Wow, Abigail - that's some heavy ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find that very intriguing to think about - most of my career has been in very technical type of things - and you know a lot of stuff is either not installed/assembled right or it breaks down...But I find it LOTS of FUN tapping into the critical/creative function of my brain! Yup - very intriguing quote you have there.
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ChattyKathy
Abi,
I too am intrigued by that statement. Yet am not sure I understand it fully. God building failure wouldn't attribute evil to him it sounds rather it would attribute free will from him.
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Abigail
kathy, it is not about attributing evil to God, but about God giving us the tools and opportunity to gain wisdom.
Here's another one I came across this morning in my email:
"When through repentance you extricate yourself from your own spiritual
exile, you will thereby liberate "your G-d" - the Shechinah, the
source of your soul - from His exile too]."
-Iggeret Hateshuvah
I found this interesting on a couple of levels. One has to do with a somewhat different or explanation of, or another attribute of Shechina.
The context of this has to do with "sin" and "repentance". I prefer not to define those terms, because they can mean such vastly different things to different people, and so what is sin to one, may not be to another.
However, the idea is that when you sin, you draw down Shechinah and entrap it/exhile it from God. But when you repent you release the Shechinah from it's exhile.
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ChattyKathy
If I only read that post and nothing prior it is almost like Shechinah is part of the soul. Yet I know that over simplifies things but we can cut off ourselves so deeply our souls ache for what to us is godliness. I just wanted to think out loud, it won't necessarily be right. :)
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dancing
Ok read the articles, although i'm sure there is more to be learned.
What exactly was cursed?
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Seems to me the serpent and the ground is what was cursed.
And I don't think this is a separate entity-Satan-from ourselves.
Just as the ground is not that which is under our feet but our minds.
Therefore we look to the spirit for blessings.
Not sure exactly how Judaism words the curses along with what the kjv says.
And I'm not putting it down but gathering more light.
Here's a good liturgy of the mind at work...
Isaiah 24
1Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
I think this is about the birth of the spirit...
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And i also think this is speaking of what can happen now here in Rev 22
Revelation 22
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Although it is quite the deal to get here in our minds.
Any thoughts Abigail? I'm not held to or limited to anything, but ready to see more.
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dancing
The enmity is between the spirit and the carnal I believe.
The Woman being spirit. It was after this that Adam called the woman Eve.
Because she was the mother of all living.
Romans 8:6-8
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Of course my knowledge is severely limited having been trained in kjv language.
But the language of the spirit will reach the spirit.
As I believe it works in every person, expanding the arena of possibilities is always welcome.
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Abigail
Back from a wonderful weekend of camping. :)
Kathy, I don't think anything is wrong with how you said it. We are trying to put into words, and therefore concrete terms, that which is not concrete - so we use what works for us.
"Seems to me the serpent and the ground is what was cursed.
And I don't think this is a separate entity-Satan-from ourselves.
Just as the ground is not that which is under our feet but our minds.
Therefore we look to the spirit for blessings."
What is cursed depends on one's perspective and the topic I guess. The idea that initially started this thread, (though we have strayed away from it, which is fine) was a woman's subjection to man. The idea being that it wasn't God's original plan for woman to be in subjection, but that was one of the consequences of Eve's actions. Then Sarah was the first woman to begin to undo that.
Beyond that, I agree about Satan not being a separate entity from ourselves and so would much of Judaism. Goes back to duality, as does your last post regarding the carnal mind and the spiritual mind.
Okay, I think I will have to chew the rest a bit, Clay.
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Abigail
Clay, how interesting that I received in my email today, a Torah lesson dealing with desolation and destruction that you may find interesting in light of what you quoted from Isaiah.
Here is what I got from it:
Within every one of us there is a core sanctuary for the Sechina (God's dwelling place). It is a sacred place, and remains so even when we exile ourselves from God.
All desloation and destruction is limited to the physical ... buildings, walls. In a spiritual sense, it is limited to that aspect of us that is not a part of the sacred place, the parts of us that are the "satan" side of our dual nature. But that sanctuary always remains and is always holy.
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Sushi
Sounds not unlike the Buddhist view of yin and yang.
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ChattyKathy
Abi,
I'm sure you had a wonderful time; your family pictures always reveals that to me.
Cool, on your thoughts of my way of seeing it in that post. It seems its something of us I already know of and think I'm trying to make it fit into my understanding, yet don't think it's exactly the definition I've tried putting on it yet. It's a work in progress type of thing for me I reckon. <_<
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Abigail
Yes, Sushi! Comparative religion - interfaith dialogue. :)
Here's more . . .
"As the Vilna Gaon points out, life is about "shevirat hamiddot," the
breaking of traits, as in negative character traits, which are
obviously a
function of the body, but not the soul. We come into this world with
strengths and weaknesses, with the goal of using the former to rectify
the
latter. We are born to be "craftsmen," in order for us to bring
perfection
to the kli - the physical vessel with which we have been born into so
that
it can access the light that is already there."
- by Rabbi Pinchas Winston and Torah.org.
and
"Thus, the Leshem explains:
He [G-d] made a separation in the illumination of the Light that it
should
not flow or give off light except for the righteous, whose actions draw
it
down and make it shine. However, the actions of the evil block it,
leaving
them in darkness, and this itself was the hiding of the Light.
(Sha'arei
Leshem, p. 133)
Thus, the light IS there, but it just won't enter them; their bodies
simply block it, being instruments of evil."
But even then, there remains that sanctuary within for the Shechinah and the light can flow through again, if one desires.
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Sushi
And this may explain the Jewish penchant for Chinese food. :)
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Abigail
they stole it from us! It is really all Jewish food
Okay, back to Eve for a bit. I came across something that I thought would be interesting, at least to the women, given what we were taught in TWI about a "woman's place".
"eizer knegdo" can be translated as either a helpmate TO him, or a helpmate AGAINST him. According to the commentaries, there are times that one is most helpful by being supportive of one's spouse, and there are times when what is needed means going against the will of one’s spouse.
This, again goes back to the notion that woman was not initially created to be submissive to man. In addition, while men were commanded to marry and have children, women were not. This means, a man has to convince the woman of why it is she should want to marry him and help him.
Yup, I'm really enjoying my studies today. :D
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pawnbroker
Point of intrest it is mention in midrashim and kabbalistic works that Lilith was in fact Adam's first wife, she is concidered to be the mother of all demons. She wanted to be concidered Adam's equal if not superior and when she insited on being on top during sex she was replaced by the more submissive Eve.
****This is not part of the Talmud, nor is it considered to be a midrash******
Many of the famous people who have decied Judaism and the study of the Kabbalah have tried to reinvent her and use her as a symbol of femine power, a number of female musical artists participated in a concert tour called "Lilith Fair" Sara McLachlan formed the festivile after becoming annoyed at the mistreatment of women in the music industry.
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Abigail
hiya Pawn, nice to see you here. :)
I have come across the Lilith story too, but found nothing particularly useful in it, so left it be. In fact, if you search the Chassidic site where I do much of my learning, you aren't likely to find her mentioned at all, at least I haven't.
I am not studying the "trendy" stuff, nor am I particularly interested in it. That is one of the reasons why I stick so closely with this Chassidic website - because I believe it truly is the Jewish teachings of Torah, Midrash, and Kabbalah as have been passed down historically and is not in any way affiliated with the trendy new age Kabbalah stuff.
But I appreciate the heads up.
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