In the Old Testament you barely hear about the devil. "The Serpent" is mentioned in Genesis and is not heard from again except in a few places. In Job "Satan" appears to be one of God's poker buddies or something, with access to God's presence. Ezekiel mentions a "Lucifer" (translated from halal, shining one, I think) which may or may not be referring to Satan.
Wierwille (and others) have taught that Satan is referred to indirectly throughout the OT, but IMHO this is a supposition. Wierwille on occassion would announce that a usage of "lord" was refferring to "the lord of this world", when "lord" was translated from jehovah, which clearly means God.
IMHO the invention an adversary to God was influenced by some of the dualistic religions, and a need to theologically justify the existance of evil.
The rebellion in heaven doesn't make sense to me either. Did Satan not know that God was all-powerful? What exactly was he trying to do? make himself all powerful? When you think about it, it doesn't make much sense, does it?
Is our resident Wiccan in the house?
Generally Wiccans and other pagans do not believe in a central personification of evil, or an ultimate source of all evil. We don't deny that evil exists, or even that there are malign spirits, but I have never heard of a Wiccan or other pagan who believes in "The Devil".
I remember hearing these things taught in the AC in 1973. It seems that in the beginning all the spirits were subject to three seperate leaders:
Lucifer---God's right hand man,the original bright and morning star.
Gabriel---God's special messenger.
Michael---his job was/is to stand for God's children and fight off anyone who attacks them
(kind of like a big brother)
Lucifer wanted to userp the throne,so to speak, and here are some general areas of scripture that delve into this: Ezekiel 28/ Isaiah 14/Gen. 3/Rev.12/Rev.22/I Cor.15.
When his overthrow was thwarted, he was thrown out of heaven along with the angels under his command and these are the spirits for whom "Hell" is reserved(not people)
Sorry this is so sketchy. That was along time ago.(1973 that is)
Also taught was that the Devil was not omnipresent or all knowing and that he could not see the future hence there was a sense of urgency to his efforts to seek revenge on God by subjecting as many as he could to bow to his power.
Generally Wiccans and other pagans do not believe in a central personification of evil, or an ultimate source of all evil. We don't deny that evil exists, or even that there are malign spirits, but I have never heard of a Wiccan or other pagan who believes in "The Devil".
Ok, I must be confused then. Wasn't there someone here that knew or believed the "Devil's side of the story?" Perhaps a Satanist? A passer-by perhaps.
Anyways, thanks for your imput, Oak. The fall of Lucifer definitely doesn't make sense to me. It would make more sense to me for a believer to think that God created the Devil evil, as the other option. If you have free will and God is all good then, as you said, where does evil come from? Again as you pointed out, the history of religion and sepecifically Christianity would shead a lot of light on the subject. Although, it seems to me that many, if not most, Christians don't base there beliefs on history outside of the Bible's take on it.
So Lucifer went from "God's right hand man" (must have been a pretty good angel type dude) to the complete opposite of God, UNABLE to do good (at least not without an evil ulterior motive).
how do we know that Gabriel or Michael won't jump ship next?
Honestly, I think the Bible could have used a good proofreader/editor who could have straightened out some of the incongruities and blatant errors (yes, Virginia, there ARE some)...
Do the souls that go to heaven lose their free will? What if they choose to do evil with their free will?
Satanists idea of Satan isn't really the Bible devil. It's long and complicated, as I recall. ReligiousTolerance.org
Some Wiccans believe the Christian devil was taken from the old gods of the forests and fields, the Horned Gods, Herne, Cernunos, Pan, Dispater... demonized by the church to drive peopel away and into the church. That is why he isn't in the old testament.
I remember hearing these things taught in the AC in 1973. It seems that in the beginning all the spirits were subject to three seperate leaders:
Lucifer---God's right hand man,the original bright and morning star.
Gabriel---God's special messenger.
Michael---his job was/is to stand for God's children and fight off anyone who attacks them
(kind of like a big brother)
Gabriel is described as delivering messages, but I don't recall where the bible says that he is the leader of all the messenger engels as TWI taught, I don't believe that he is described as an archangel. Michael is decribed in at least one place as an archangel, but does that make him the leader of all the angel wariors?
Well I thought the 'rationalist society' members would turn up pretty quickly !!
That someone (or something) could go from being REALLY nice and holy to progressively more evil and darker should not seem so foreign a concept ?? LCM is a good example just on a human level. He has a chance to repent just like I'm sure Lucifer did as well. Adam repented and then got on with trying to right some wrongs.
With Lucifer it seems some things like pride and envy got in the way of his repenting. What can't you understand ?? What seems so unlikely ??
Just the mere fact that you're sitting in front of a computer on a sphere in the 'midst' of a galaxy called the 'milky Way' swirling around an unfathomable universe with conscious thoughts of what you're doing, (namely the same as what you're posting about) to me makes it TOTALLY plausible !!!
This question is what caused me to leave TWI. Why would a God who is all goodness, and loving, and knowing bring Lucifer into being?
JAL said that evil is just disobedience to God. If we choose to believe JAL, the fall becomes pretty simple. Lucifer disobeys God, and becomes a fallen angel. Since God is all knowing, Lucifer being all evil isn't because he cannot do good, but because he chooses not to, and will never choose to do anything but evil.
But that still doesn't answer why it is necessary to have a satanic being in the first place.
The problem that the "The Rationalist Society" (you make that sound like an insult <_< ) has with the whole scenario is not that the Devil became evil by his free will, but that he now is unable to exercise that free will to be other than evil.
I think it is the fact we have a choice to love and worship God. to chose love we have to know evil or eles it is NOT a choice.
God wanted man His creation to chose to worship and love and make HIM their father.
It is free will . It is a realtionship not all an me or nothing eles God gives us a choice to love HIM or not. He did create us with the ability to decide whether we want HIM as a Father or not.
He truly wants his people to chose to love HIM. without evil we would not have a choice would we?
I am not certain God created satan do you have any record of that? Lucifer was an angel a spirit being with God in the heavens , a very bright star where do you see God created or had anything to do with his being ?
I am not certain God created satan do you have any record of that? Lucifer was an angel a spirit being with God in the heavens , a very bright star where do you see God created or had anything to do with his being ?
You think maybe there were things not included in "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"?
If you stick with biblical literalism, God created everything, including Satan and all that he was/is. Satan rebelled and as a result we had a focus, or even a source for evil. But according to Pond
He truly wants his people to chose to love HIM. without evil we would not have a choice would we?
So that the existance of evil is part of God's plan.
If evil's existance is part of God's plan, then Satan didn't really have a choice, did he? God was counting on Satan to rebel. Sounds like a setup. Nice guy, this God fella :unsure:
Seems to me that with free will every single person would have the ability to choose to love and obey God or not. There would not be a need to have a focus or personification of that lack of love and of disobedience. You don't need a devil to have evil. You need a devil to take the heat off of God for all the evil that does happen on his watch.
the bible does not say God created everything, it lists what he created and satan was not on the list. Heaven is anything above earth the sky. Satan was cast out of heaven before man was created, there is a gap in time between the formation of the earth and thne created, this time man could have been many ions of time for all we know and a great destruction happened and alive things where on the earth. That is why he said REPLENISH the earth.
something happened in that time. for all the being to be destroyed.
it is spiritual choice , good or evil life or death.
I am not certain God created satan do you have any record of that? Lucifer was an angel a spirit being with God in the heavens , a very bright star where do you see God created or had anything to do with his being ?
Colossians 1:16-17: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
the bible does not say God created everything, it lists what he created and satan was not on the list.
So where did he come from? Or is your point that "Satan" was not created as an evil being, but became that way? I understand that God didn't directly create everything that ever was, but that he created the raw material out of which everything consists.
I don't think that a biblical case can be made that Satan evolved, or was born, or was built from angel parts by other angels, therefore, despite there being no verse that "lists" Satan as a creation from God, God created him.
(note: I am using "Satan" for both his fallen and pre-fallen state. I'm not convinced that the "Lucifer" of Ezekiel is referring to Satan)
Heaven is anything above earth the sky.
Well, that's one meaning, and certainly its literal one. Figuratively it can mean the unseen abode of God.
Satan was cast out of heaven before man was created,
Okay, I won't argue with that
there is a gap in time between the formation of the earth and thne created, this time man could have been many ions of time for all we know and a great destruction happened and alive things where on the earth.
Well, that's the "gap" theory, which is not universally accepted. I'm not seeing how this fits in to your point.
That is why he said REPLENISH the earth.
Hmmm...no it's not. While the English word "replenish" means "to fill again", the Hebrew word from which it is translated does not.
something happened in that time. for all the being to be destroyed.
it is spiritual choice , good or evil life or death.
Well, anyway, the bible does say that God created evil:
Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Foolish mortals! I'm only carrying out what Jehovah tells me to do.
- The Marcionite Devil
Since I am not one of those who believe the bible literally, I'm not going to try to make the Devil "fit".
I see the bible as a collection of writings by people trying to make sense out of their spiritual experiences and to somehow make it all hang together. Some of it may have been sincere efforts to share their experiences with others, other parts seem more like partisan pamphlets, putting down the views of opposing camps and pushing their own agendas.
Devil theology appears to me to be a way to make sense of the very real fact of suffering and evil in a world presided over by a loving God.
I am short on time, but in regard to Danny's request, Judaism does not teach or believe in the Christian version of the Devil. Satan from Job is not Lucifer.
Rather, Lucifer and Satan, as referenced in the OT, are understood in a number of different ways. In some, as figurative names for people, in some as figures of speech.
However, in the simplest of terms, the basic notion comes down to humanity's freedom of will to make choices that result in good for the individual and society or have a negative result for the individual and society. Or in even more simplistic terms to obey God or not.
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Oakspear
In the Old Testament you barely hear about the devil. "The Serpent" is mentioned in Genesis and is not heard from again except in a few places. In Job "Satan" appears to be one of God's poker buddies or something, with access to God's presence. Ezekiel mentions a "Lucifer" (translated from halal, shining one, I think) which may or may not be referring to Satan.
Wierwille (and others) have taught that Satan is referred to indirectly throughout the OT, but IMHO this is a supposition. Wierwille on occassion would announce that a usage of "lord" was refferring to "the lord of this world", when "lord" was translated from jehovah, which clearly means God.
IMHO the invention an adversary to God was influenced by some of the dualistic religions, and a need to theologically justify the existance of evil.
The rebellion in heaven doesn't make sense to me either. Did Satan not know that God was all-powerful? What exactly was he trying to do? make himself all powerful? When you think about it, it doesn't make much sense, does it?
Generally Wiccans and other pagans do not believe in a central personification of evil, or an ultimate source of all evil. We don't deny that evil exists, or even that there are malign spirits, but I have never heard of a Wiccan or other pagan who believes in "The Devil".Link to comment
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waysider
I remember hearing these things taught in the AC in 1973. It seems that in the beginning all the spirits were subject to three seperate leaders:
Lucifer---God's right hand man,the original bright and morning star.
Gabriel---God's special messenger.
Michael---his job was/is to stand for God's children and fight off anyone who attacks them
(kind of like a big brother)
Lucifer wanted to userp the throne,so to speak, and here are some general areas of scripture that delve into this: Ezekiel 28/ Isaiah 14/Gen. 3/Rev.12/Rev.22/I Cor.15.
When his overthrow was thwarted, he was thrown out of heaven along with the angels under his command and these are the spirits for whom "Hell" is reserved(not people)
Sorry this is so sketchy. That was along time ago.(1973 that is)
Also taught was that the Devil was not omnipresent or all knowing and that he could not see the future hence there was a sense of urgency to his efforts to seek revenge on God by subjecting as many as he could to bow to his power.
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lindyhopper
Ok, I must be confused then. Wasn't there someone here that knew or believed the "Devil's side of the story?" Perhaps a Satanist? A passer-by perhaps.
Anyways, thanks for your imput, Oak. The fall of Lucifer definitely doesn't make sense to me. It would make more sense to me for a believer to think that God created the Devil evil, as the other option. If you have free will and God is all good then, as you said, where does evil come from? Again as you pointed out, the history of religion and sepecifically Christianity would shead a lot of light on the subject. Although, it seems to me that many, if not most, Christians don't base there beliefs on history outside of the Bible's take on it.
So, my friends, where did the Devil come from?
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lindyhopper
That is basically what I remember too, waysider.
So Lucifer went from "God's right hand man" (must have been a pretty good angel type dude) to the complete opposite of God, UNABLE to do good (at least not without an evil ulterior motive).
How does that make sense?
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George Aar
And, if we buy that story,
how do we know that Gabriel or Michael won't jump ship next?
Honestly, I think the Bible could have used a good proofreader/editor who could have straightened out some of the incongruities and blatant errors (yes, Virginia, there ARE some)...
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Bramble
A good editor, yes.
Do the souls that go to heaven lose their free will? What if they choose to do evil with their free will?
Satanists idea of Satan isn't really the Bible devil. It's long and complicated, as I recall. ReligiousTolerance.org
Some Wiccans believe the Christian devil was taken from the old gods of the forests and fields, the Horned Gods, Herne, Cernunos, Pan, Dispater... demonized by the church to drive peopel away and into the church. That is why he isn't in the old testament.
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Oakspear
satanism:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm
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TheInvisibleDan
Foolish mortals! I'm only carrying out what Jehovah tells me to do.
- The Marcionite Devil
Actually, this conversation has struck my curiosity concerning references to the Devil in Apocryphal literature.
How far back does this "mutiny" tale of the devil's fall actually go?
To what degree might this tale had been allegorically contrived, and reflected back into what is read, as opposed
to certain passages (particularly in the Old) being transcribed and taken literally?
For example, in the proverb directed against the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14:12, "Lucifer" may also be simply
translated, "howl", "Howl, son of the dawn!" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament).
So A.E. Knoch's translation. But if referring to "O day-star" ( The Jewish Scriptures, Jewish Publication Society)
still doesn't change the fact that the text is initially directed against a certain powerful, prideful human king,
the ruler of Babylon.
Did the Jews take these passages to mean "the Devil", or is this a later development of thought being allegorically
fed back into the text?
Abigail's insight might be most appreciated here.
Danny
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allan w.
Well I thought the 'rationalist society' members would turn up pretty quickly !!
That someone (or something) could go from being REALLY nice and holy to progressively more evil and darker should not seem so foreign a concept ?? LCM is a good example just on a human level. He has a chance to repent just like I'm sure Lucifer did as well. Adam repented and then got on with trying to right some wrongs.
With Lucifer it seems some things like pride and envy got in the way of his repenting. What can't you understand ?? What seems so unlikely ??
Just the mere fact that you're sitting in front of a computer on a sphere in the 'midst' of a galaxy called the 'milky Way' swirling around an unfathomable universe with conscious thoughts of what you're doing, (namely the same as what you're posting about) to me makes it TOTALLY plausible !!!
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TheInvisibleDan
Who's denying the "plausibility" that "good" can become "evil", Allan?
Or for that matter, "evil" might repent and become "good"?
And which transformative process do you profess to demonstrate here?
Danny
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allan w.
Well maybe read the posts again Dan.
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VeganXTC
This question is what caused me to leave TWI. Why would a God who is all goodness, and loving, and knowing bring Lucifer into being?
JAL said that evil is just disobedience to God. If we choose to believe JAL, the fall becomes pretty simple. Lucifer disobeys God, and becomes a fallen angel. Since God is all knowing, Lucifer being all evil isn't because he cannot do good, but because he chooses not to, and will never choose to do anything but evil.
But that still doesn't answer why it is necessary to have a satanic being in the first place.
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dancing
jal is as lost as most
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TheEvan
I've heard tell that the Devil is in the details.
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Oakspear
Allan:
You read the posts again
The problem that the "The Rationalist Society" (you make that sound like an insult <_< ) has with the whole scenario is not that the Devil became evil by his free will, but that he now is unable to exercise that free will to be other than evil.
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pond
I think it is the fact we have a choice to love and worship God. to chose love we have to know evil or eles it is NOT a choice.
God wanted man His creation to chose to worship and love and make HIM their father.
It is free will . It is a realtionship not all an me or nothing eles God gives us a choice to love HIM or not. He did create us with the ability to decide whether we want HIM as a Father or not.
He truly wants his people to chose to love HIM. without evil we would not have a choice would we?
I am not certain God created satan do you have any record of that? Lucifer was an angel a spirit being with God in the heavens , a very bright star where do you see God created or had anything to do with his being ?
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Oakspear
If you stick with biblical literalism, God created everything, including Satan and all that he was/is. Satan rebelled and as a result we had a focus, or even a source for evil. But according to Pond
So that the existance of evil is part of God's plan.If evil's existance is part of God's plan, then Satan didn't really have a choice, did he? God was counting on Satan to rebel. Sounds like a setup. Nice guy, this God fella :unsure:
Seems to me that with free will every single person would have the ability to choose to love and obey God or not. There would not be a need to have a focus or personification of that lack of love and of disobedience. You don't need a devil to have evil. You need a devil to take the heat off of God for all the evil that does happen on his watch.
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dancing
Neither God or the Devil is out side of your self.
Not many are brave enough to face this truth,
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pond
Oakspear
the bible does not say God created everything, it lists what he created and satan was not on the list. Heaven is anything above earth the sky. Satan was cast out of heaven before man was created, there is a gap in time between the formation of the earth and thne created, this time man could have been many ions of time for all we know and a great destruction happened and alive things where on the earth. That is why he said REPLENISH the earth.
something happened in that time. for all the being to be destroyed.
it is spiritual choice , good or evil life or death.
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VeganXTC
Colossians 1:16-17: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
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Oakspear
I don't think that a biblical case can be made that Satan evolved, or was born, or was built from angel parts by other angels, therefore, despite there being no verse that "lists" Satan as a creation from God, God created him.
(note: I am using "Satan" for both his fallen and pre-fallen state. I'm not convinced that the "Lucifer" of Ezekiel is referring to Satan)
Well, that's one meaning, and certainly its literal one. Figuratively it can mean the unseen abode of God. Okay, I won't argue with thatWell, that's the "gap" theory, which is not universally accepted. I'm not seeing how this fits in to your point. Hmmm...no it's not. While the English word "replenish" means "to fill again", the Hebrew word from which it is translated does not. Well, anyway, the bible does say that God created evil:Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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Oakspear
I see the bible as a collection of writings by people trying to make sense out of their spiritual experiences and to somehow make it all hang together. Some of it may have been sincere efforts to share their experiences with others, other parts seem more like partisan pamphlets, putting down the views of opposing camps and pushing their own agendas.
Devil theology appears to me to be a way to make sense of the very real fact of suffering and evil in a world presided over by a loving God.
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Abigail
I am short on time, but in regard to Danny's request, Judaism does not teach or believe in the Christian version of the Devil. Satan from Job is not Lucifer.
Rather, Lucifer and Satan, as referenced in the OT, are understood in a number of different ways. In some, as figurative names for people, in some as figures of speech.
However, in the simplest of terms, the basic notion comes down to humanity's freedom of will to make choices that result in good for the individual and society or have a negative result for the individual and society. Or in even more simplistic terms to obey God or not.
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dancing
A neccesary ingredient in the art of life.
Seeing there is good in all.
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