The Devil

[Oakspear]

Satan in Judaism:

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

[Abigail]

Great link, Oaks!! I was going to look for an article I read that dealt specifically with the story of Job, but I have not had time. Perhaps later.

[shortfuse]

So, my friends, where did the Devil come from?

I heard he was from New Jersey.

Edited October 8, 2006 by shortfuse

[Sushi]

I heard he was from New Jersey.

This is true, Short. His headquarters is in New York City, but he couldn't stand the hustle and bustle of the city and actually lives on Shades of Death Road near Great Meadows, N.J (no, I am not making that street name up).

(what are YOU lookin' AT?)

[Sushi]

HERE!

[Abigail]

Sorry, Sushi, but you must be mistaken. The devil lives right HERE in Michigan.

He even trains his minions at DamU also located here in Michigan.

Edited October 8, 2006 by Abigail

[mstar1]

Damn - if you look closely they even have the same tag line as me

Great minds...

Edited October 8, 2006 by mstar1

[Sushi]

Be that as it may, babe (about being sorry ), the devil would NEVER live in such an obvious place as Hell. I have special knowledge of this since I'm his second son, Herbiejuan being number one son. You may argue he's hiding in plain sight, but Hell, Michigan is HARDLY plain sight.

[lindyhopper]

I think Sushi might be right. Check it out

Clearly there is a black hell hole right there off of Shades of Death Road.....

Hmmm, I think one of life's mysteries has been solved.

[lindyhopper]

Allan,

I wouldn't mind a little more clarification on your position. As I see it, you are making quite a few presuppositions.

Well I thought the 'rationalist society' members would turn up pretty quickly !!

This is what I am looking for, one of the things anyway, the non-rationalist's non-rationalization.

That someone (or something) could go from being REALLY nice and holy to progressively more evil and darker should not seem so foreign a concept ??

First off, the story goes that Lucifer was an archangel not just really nice and holy. I don't know, that seems like a "lest you die" sort of statement. Second, can you sight a chapter and verse on the "progressively more evil" transformation Lucifer made? Entropy....nope, not a foreign concept.

LCM is a good example just on a human level. He has a chance to repent just like I'm sure Lucifer did as well. Adam repented and then got on with trying to right some wrongs.

LCM is not a good example, IMO. He can and may have already repented, but he was not pure evil. I knew some of his family. I met him. He was not pure evil. He could be nice and he could be a total a$$hole. The Devil went from being archangle to all evil all the time. Another assumtion you made here is that the Devil and his gang had an opportunity to repent and now that time has passed. No grace administration for him I guess?

With Lucifer it seems some things like pride and envy got in the way of his repenting.

Again, you are getting this from where?

What can't you understand ?? What seems so unlikely ??

Your view on this and that I'll get a straight answer from you. There is always hope though.

Just the mere fact that you're sitting in front of a computer on a sphere in the 'midst' of a galaxy called the 'milky Way' swirling around an unfathomable universe with conscious thoughts of what you're doing, (namely the same as what you're posting about) to me makes it TOTALLY plausible !!!

Yes, just as plausible as any other unvarafiable creation story, but that is not what I am getting at. I'm trying to figure out how you make this story fit with the rest of the Bible's notions of redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness, and free will.

Are you saying that if the Devil and his boys wanted to that they could do good? They could switch teams? They could get forgiveness? Not burn in the lake of fire etc,?

Doesn't it make more sense that in a world of free will, created by a just God, that he would have to create the evil in order to give individuals the choice. There is Biblical evidence to suggest just that as has been posted. I honestly do want to know your justification for the story of the fall of Lucifer as you know it, because, as I said, it doesn't seem to make sense or fit with the rest of the Bible outside of God's need for evil.

[allan w.]

Maybe I should just cut and paste the WHOLE Bible ? The Bible mentions at least the INITIAL 'goodliness' of Lucifer. (perfect in the day he was CREATED) Ezekiel 28:15 , yes I believe it is a reference to satan, no man is ever called a 'cherub'.

Satan would not have been 'perfect' if there was ANY residual evil in him initially.

The 'evil' had to develop like a cancer.

Lucifer could have stopped and repented at any time, I'm sure Gods' mercy would even have extended to him. (Even in the 'midst' of hell God is there) Psalm 139:8

Pride and envy got in the way. Ezekiel 28:17

LCM was given as an example by me because (as I said) on a human level, he was/is someone who went from making godly good decisions to PROGRESSIVELY evil and unrighteous decisions.

[WordWolf]

Maybe I should just cut and paste the WHOLE Bible ?

Maybe you should find the verses that you believe support your position, post them,

then say "this is why I believe this verse supports my position..."

vpw dashed thru this stuff at high speed in pfal, and never supported his case.

(I've gone over the verses since then, and have engaged in dialogues concerning their

meanings, but vpw didn't.)

You have the chance to explain why YOU believe what you believe, and this is one

time you might have others on your side. This is NOT strengthened by starting with

an attitude of "well, my esteemed opponent is obviously illiterate, else he'd agree

with me..."

The Bible mentions at least the INITIAL 'goodliness' of Lucifer. (perfect in the day he was CREATED) Ezekiel 28:15 , yes I believe it is a reference to satan, no man is ever called a 'cherub'.

Satan would not have been 'perfect' if there was ANY residual evil in him initially.

The 'evil' had to develop like a cancer.

Lucifer could have stopped and repented at any time, I'm sure Gods' mercy would even have extended to him. (Even in the 'midst' of hell God is there) Psalm 139:8

Pride and envy got in the way. Ezekiel 28:17

LCM was given as an example by me because (as I said) on a human level, he was/is someone who went from making godly good decisions to PROGRESSIVELY evil and unrighteous decisions.

This was a start-but if you want to make a case from this, you'll need to put in a little time.

I'll get back to this when I HAVE the time this warrants, myself.

[allan w.]

What I meant was that just like Jesus Christ as the 'red thread' throughout the Bible, Lucifer, Satan is (for want of a better description) the 'loose thread' or 'black thread' throughout the Bible. As such, one has to look at Satan in the context of the whole Bible. No reference to 'illiteracy' et al was intended, my apologies in advance to Lindyhopper if 'how' I opened up may offend !!

[templelady]

Okay this is LDS theology which, because I am LDS is my viewpoint. This is how it is explained to children so I figured it would be the easiest to follow Green references are the Bible, Red references from additional LDS scriptures

1. In the premortal life we were spirit children and lived with our heavenly parents (Hebrews 12:9)

2. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father (D&C 93:31) and is the older brother of our spirits.

3. Lucifer, who became Satan, was also a spirit child of Heavenly Father.

4. Heavenly Father called a meeting for all his spirit children. At this meeting he explained his plan for us to become like him. He told us that he wanted us to go to earth to get a physical body. He explained that on earth we would be tested to see if we would keep his commandments.

5. At this meeting Heavenly Father also explained that on earth we would all sin and we would all die. Heavenly Father needed someone to be the Savior, to suffer for our sins, and to die for us so that we could be resurrected.

6. Lucifer wanted Heavenly Father to change his plan. Lucifer said he would save everyone by taking away their freedom to choose, which would have made it impossible for us to make mistakes or be righteous. Lucifer also wanted all the honor (Moses4:1).

7. Because he loved us( John 5:13) Jesus volunteered to be our Savior. He wanted to follow Heavenly Father’s plan and give the glory to Heavenly Father (Moses4:2)

8. Heavenly Father chose Jesus to be our Savior. Lucifer was angry and rebelled against Heavenly Father (Revelation12:7-9; Moses(4:3-4).

9. Heavenly Father’s spirit children had to decide whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer.

10. One-third of Heavenly Father’s spirit children chose to follow Lucifer, and they were all cast out of heaven. Lucifer became Satan, and the spirits who followed him became evil spirits, who try to get us to do wrong things. These spirits who followed Satan did not receive physical bodies.

11. All the spirits who chose Heavenly Father’s plan and followed Jesus in the premortal life have been or will be born on earth with physical bodies of flesh and blood.

12. All the children in this classroom chose to follow Heavenly Father’s plan and have been born on earth with mortal bodies.

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...r%3Bfield%3ARef

This does not bar Satan from Heaven as a reading of the Book of JOB in the Old Testament quickly revels

Secondly repentance is available to all of God's children. For God to deny Satan and those who followed him that chance would make God a liar which he isn't

IMO the original Prodigal Son was Lucifer that is ,as I said My opinion--

[WordWolf]

What I meant was that just like Jesus Christ as the 'red thread' throughout the Bible, Lucifer, Satan is (for want of a better description) the 'loose thread' or 'black thread' throughout the Bible. As such, one has to look at Satan in the context of the whole Bible. No reference to 'illiteracy' et al was intended, my apologies in advance to Lindyhopper if 'how' I opened up may offend !!

You may well be right. However, you'll need to support your case.

Find a few examples that most clearly support it, and run through them for the studio audience.

You may find support, you may even convince a few people.

God knows I've learned things in discussions on this board, and reversed my opinions

based on them at times. Try to let the verses-and direct conclusions FROM the verses-

carry your posts, and they'll carry more weight.

And no, you don't have to find them this second-you may not have the time now either.

:)

[johniam]

quote: So, my friends, where did the Devil come from?

I heard he was from New Jersey.

Naw, according to Procol Harum he came from Kansas.

[WordWolf]

Ok, here's my position, and why I maintain it.

(Judging from the previous posts, my position has already been judged capricious and provincial.

That hasn't changed my position-I believe the stronger case is for this position.)

The Dictionary of Misinformation claims that the Isaiah 14 section never refers to the devil,

because it says it's addressed to the King of Babylon.

Well, it DOES say that, and I won't pretend it doesn't.

(All quotes from the NASB.)

Isaiah 14:4

"that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,

'How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!' "

However, that is hardly the entire case.

Addressing something to someone serving satan does not mean that the message is not meant for

satan's ears after all. If that person is a mouthpiece of his, even a self-proclaimed one, the message

IS for satan.

Isaiah 14:12-14.

"How you have fallen from heaven,

O star of the morning, son of the dawn!

You have been cut down to the earth,

You who have weakened the nations!

13 But you said in your heart,

'I will ascend to heaven;

I will raise my throne above the stars of God,

And I will sit on the mount of assembly

In the recesses of the north.

14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High.'

Interesting set of attributes this guy has. He's referred to as a star. That's also been the case for

angels, and for Jesus Christ at the end of the Book of Revelation.

In fact, this is rendered nearly the same, or EXACTLY the same, as the title Jesus has at the end

of Revelation.

Revelation 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the

descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Even for a king, this guy's aspirations appear pretty lofty.

We've got that "stars" thing again, almost as if it's saying he wanted to elevate himself

above the angels. That's accurate if it's describing someone replacing God.

In fact, that's what it says he thinks he can do, in verse 14.

Is this really describing a monomaniacal king, or someone pulling his strings?

Ezekiel 28:12-17

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him,

'Thus says the Lord GOD,

"You had the seal of perfection,

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;

Every precious stone was your covering:

The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;

The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;

The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;

And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,

Was in you.

On the day that you were created

They were prepared.

14"You were the anointed cherub who covers,

And I placed you there

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

15"You were blameless in your ways

From the day you were created

Until unrighteousness was found in you.

16"By the abundance of your trade

You were internally filled with violence,

And you sinned;

Therefore I have cast you as profane

From the mountain of God.

And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the stones of fire.

17"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;

You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor

I cast you to the ground;

I put you before kings,

That they may see you.'"

Someone may of course say "this says it's about the king of Tyre. Any other possibility is precluded."

Well, it's not quite that simple.

This supposed "man" has some even MORE peculiar properties.

He was in EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD.

Only 2 humans were said to have been there, and they died.

Might this not be a description of someone who is not human?

He "walked in the midst of the stones of fire."

This might mean magma or lava, or might not. Either way, strange

for a human, no matter what it means.

Finally, he's called a "cherub."(Twice.) Maybe I missed something, but I thought the

only "cherubs" are either angels or stylistic depictions OF angels.

Is this all about the literal King of Tyre? You make up your own mind;

I think it's clear there's more to this account than just a message to an overproud king.

(Ok, that's not everyting, but that's a beginning.)

[Sunesis]

Wordwolf, midst of the stones of fire = planets.

Lucifer had dominion over all angels and the Universe - that includes planets. Note, many of the "gods" in ancient myths (actually, the fallen angels of Gen. 6) are all named after planets and stars.

In order to manage and steward something, you must have free will to do so. As steward of the earth (which I believe is the "eden" planet of the universe), Lucifer must have had the free will to steward it.

If a farmer has a manager for his farm, but won't let the person run it, what good is that?

In the beginning, you had one will - God's - perfect harmony and perfection.

With Lucifer's fall, you now have two wills running the universe and clashing.

Lucifer's whole goal has been to reacquire his dominion - and God's throne - which means a clash, hatred for God's newly created man, attempts to hybredize the gene pool so the Savior could not appear (Gen. 6), killing children under 3, etc.

The reason he is "evil" is because his will is in direct contradiction with God's. His will is to overthrow God, his will is to destroy mankind. Now that he knows he has lost and Christ sits in his stead that he once had, and is doomed to eternal destruction, his goal is to take as many with him as he can.

Just as we are children of the material, 5 senses realm, I have no problem with spiritual creations living in a spiritual realm, or dimension.

[Sushi]

quote: So, my friends, where did the Devil come from?

I heard he was from New Jersey.

Naw, according to Procol Harum he came from Kansas.

According to Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels, the devil is female, and from time to time, wears a blue dress.

[Abigail]

He also seems to enjoy the occasional visit to Georgia.

[Oakspear]

Ok, here's my position, and why I maintain it.

(Judging from the previous posts, my position has already been judged capricious and provincial.

By who? (whom?)

There's a variety of opinions here. I myself don't believe in a literal devil and believe that the biblical references to him (it) are an attempt to reconcile conflicting attributes of God. But that's just me.

That being said, I think if one were to take the view that the bible is inspired by God, then it is clear that not onlly are the verses in Ezekiel and Isaiah referring to literal flesh and blood men, but they are also figuratively referring to the being known as Satan/The Devil.

You give some good reasons for thinking that they refer to the Devil, and I mostly agree with you. You've thought it through. I can't speak for any other poster, but I ask questions from a skeptical POV to encourage people to THINK.

The Dictionary of Misinformation claims that the Isaiah 14 section never refers to the devil,

because it says it's addressed to the King of Babylon.

This may be a stupid question, but is there an actual Dictionary of Misinformation or are you poking fun at someone?

[Oakspear]

From a non-God-inspired bible POV, when the different books of the bible were written, what was going on at the time, who Israel was in contact with, and what points the different writers were trying to make is all important.

Throughout most of the bible evil happens without any help from a devil. In Job you have the aspect of the tempter/accuser, who is evidently on speaking terms with God, then a couple of sections in books, one which immediately precedes the captivity and one that is deep into it, that are just kinda thrown into the mix, then all of a sudden he's all over the place in the gospels.

I'm sure that my fellow posters who subscribe to biblical inerranct can make it all "fit"...somehow, I find cultural influences and attempts and reconciling different aspects of theology just as reasonable.

[waysider]

Sushi

"Mitch Rider And The Detroit Wheels"------------------I found that song while I was looking through some old records in the attic the other day.

Guess I better behave myself or I'll get the both of us exiled to "Name That Tune."

Sock it to me,baby!

[WordWolf]

Some Wiccans believe the Christian devil was taken from the old gods of the forests and fields, the Horned Gods, Herne, Cernunos, Pan, Dispater... demonized by the church to drive peopel away and into the church. That is why he isn't in the old testament.

Actually, I've found that some more erudite Wiccans say that Cernunnos was taken from Herne and was

supposed to be the same guy.

As for Dis Pater, he and Orcus were merged into Pluto the Roman god, where they had all previously been

separate from Hades the Greek god. Is there a reference somewhere that equates him with the

Horned Gods of the fields like Pan?

[WordWolf]

This may be a stupid question, but is there an actual Dictionary of Misinformation or are you poking fun at someone?

"Dictionary of Misinformation", by Tom Burnam. I have a copy.

Paperback: 334 pages

Publisher: Perennial Library; 1st Perennial Library ed edition (1986)

Language: English

ISBN: 0060913150