3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Present Tense
5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
How many people are in the wilderness? who is the Devil talking about?
7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Worshipo ME! Don't be selfless, think of yourself. Think of what you can gain by worshipping yourself!
8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Still only one person here.
9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Show me your miracles, you are not the Son of God, you can't do it like it is written.
12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Damn straight, get off my back you selfish ego, prideful SELF>
God the Father of Lights lives in me.
His will will I do not mine.
13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
John 14
30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Defeated
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Jesus burned the 'devil' out. Because of 'every word of God' in his heart. The only way the devil could do anything then was through other people.
And of course it wasn't this intense all the time.
Like that movie. 'LIAR LIAR'. He kicked his own foot.
It's o.k. Dancing, most of us have Bibles, maybe you don't need to reem off pages of scriptures.
Why is that a problem for you? I, for one, don't always have my bible in the same room as my computer. Dancing & I see things very differently (usually), but give him credit for using specific verses to back up his opinion. Better than your usual smart-@ssed comments that assume that everybody either accepts your interpretation of the bible or is an idiot.
Sir Guess...'Flowery' again
Yeah, so?
Abi...Jewish tinted glasses
Allan...PFAL tinted glasses...again, what's your point?
And Oaks..the amount of 'putting down' that anything to do with pfal beliefs cops, sort of 'infers' that those that 'adhere' to it are idiots, wellll...in my books makes me feel o.k. to believe that those that have shunned it are idiots too !!
yeah...sorry, I just took it for granted that most of us knew the thing backwards and sideways anyways.
And Oaks..the amount of 'putting down' that anything to do with pfal beliefs cops, sort of 'infers' that those that 'adhere' to it are idiots, wellll...in my books makes me feel o.k. to believe that those that have shunned it are idiots too !!
Isn't that attitude what got you put on moderater queue last time?
Wordwolf gave you some good advice a while back on how to conduct arguments, I'd take it if I were you.
So...anything to contribute? Or are you just gonna sling mud?
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
You would think that this applies to Satan, but do we think that because we already know this verse?
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
If we take this verse literally, then the only ones literally in Eden would be God, Satan, Adam and Eve. But could it be a figurative reference to the King of Tyre?
every precious stone [was]thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
No matter who this is talking about it's figurative.
Eze 28:14 Thou [art]the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Someone pointed out that no man is ever called a "cherub". But is Satan called a cherub anywhere else. What exactly are the cherubs?
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast]perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.
Are we predisposed to think that this refers to Satan because that's what we were taught?
"Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; "
There is a clear reference here, in my opinion, to Lucifer as a "man". From a Jewish perspective, all men - Jew or not - are loved by God and have a purpose on this earth and in the worlds to come. Most Jewish sects do not view the world with the mentality that you are Jewish or you are scum/condemned to hell/an unbeliever mentality. We don't have the "saved or unsaved" thing going on.
Instead, it is believed that the over 600 Mitzvot in the OT apply to the Jewish people for a specific purpose; and the rest of the people are only commanded to follow the 7 commands given by Noah. With that in mind, the King of Babylon would have been loved by God, and his breaking of the 7 Noahic laws would have greatly disappointed God. The same would apply to the prince of Tyrus. Remember too, that throughout history, many kings/pharohs/rulers did see themselves as God's and were worshipped as such.
"Someone pointed out that no man is ever called a "cherub". But is Satan called a cherub anywhere else. What exactly are the cherubs? "
Cherubs are the highest ranking angels, much like the king of Bablylon and the prince of Tyrus were once among the highest ranking men. I view it as a figure of speech.
"When was it decided that this did refer to Satan? Was it ever viwed that way in pre-Christian times? Did the Church Fathers view it that way? "
I cannot speak for what the Church Fathers thought. However, it is unlikely that these verses were understood to have been speaking of a devil in pre-Christian times by the Jewish people, as that concept simply is not a Jewish concept. Over time, after the Christian movement took hold, and particularly in the 1400's and 1500's there were groups within Judaism who adopted some of Christianity's concepts regarding evil spirits, resulting in some interesting superstitions that even our more fundamental believers here on the board would laugh at. But even then, there was no belief in a "devil".
I'll bow out. I only popped in on this thread because Lindy asked something about WIcca so I had something to discuss on the subject. I have no deep interest in devil theology or black threads, since I don't believe in either. Nor am I interested in a Believer/Unbeliever war, which I think is pointless.
"It has also become clear that Isaiah's metaphor of the fallen "Day Star" (Isa. 14.12-15) is to be located in the Ugaritic myth of the fallen astral deities, notably Athtar, who presumed to usurp the throne of Baal; the persistence of this theme is seen in the later development of traditions about Satan (Luke 10.18)."
-p.786, entry on "Ugaritic", The Oxford Companion to the Bible.
"The myth of fallen angels, prominent in later Jewish and Christian theology, does not appear in the Old Testament, though when it arose it could attach itself to Is. 14:12, a reflection of a Canaanite myth that may have actually been the prototype of the Jewish idea." ( p.121, An Outline of Biblical Theology, M. Burrows).
"The third way in which the creation was thought of by the Hebrews and other peoples was the myth of the primeval conflict between God and the dragon of chaos. While known from Babylonian and Canaanite sources, this myth is only echoed in the Old Testament by occasional literary allusions. The Hebrew word for abyss, tehom, corresponds etymologically to the Babylonian name of the primeval monster, Tiamat, but in this case the original ideas has entirely disappeared. Not so with Rahab [Ps. 89:10; Is. 51:9] and Leviathan [Ps.74:14; Isa.27:1]. Apparently the attitude of the later Old Testament writers to this myth was like that of Christian poets to pagan mythology." (ibid, p.117).
As promised and at long last - Judaism's understanding of "Satan" in the book of Job:
I will start with the verses and Rashi's Commentary:
6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.
Now the day came about That day which was Rosh Hashanah, (known as a day of sounding the shofar, and the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded the Adversary to bring the merit and the guilt of all creatures. This is the meaning of “from going to and fro on the earth.”)
and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord to contend with Him, because the expression of standing refers only to judgment, as it is stated (Isa. 3:13): “The Lord stands to plead.”
and the Adversary, too, came among them to accuse the people.
In other words, once a year, on Rosh Hashanah it was the "Adversary's" job to come before God and report to God the merit and guilt (or worthiness) of all things living)
7. The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it."
“From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.” So is my wont to go to and fro, to see the evil ones and the good ones. Now I went to and fro throughout the entire earth and I did not find anyone like Abraham, about whom it is said (Gen. 13:17): “Rise, go to and fro in the land.” The Sages of blessed memory (Baba Bathra 16a) said that the Adversary meant this for the sake of Heaven, in order that Abraham’s merit not be forgotten by our God.
8. Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil."
Have you paid attention to My servant Job that you should desire to denounce him?
9. And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” This is a question.
10. Haven't You made a hedge around him, his household, and all that he has on all sides? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land.
Haven’t You made a hedge around him Because he knows that You visit him frequently to perform miracles for him, and he is fruitful and multiplies; therefore he performs all these righteous deeds-but You have not tested him.
11. But now, stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?"
But were you to touch all that he has, would he not blaspheme You to Your face immediately? This is a question. And then, the Lord said to the Adversary, “Behold, all that he has is in your hands.”
Thanks to everyone else as well. I think it is important to get many different views on this type of stuff.
I think Abi made a good point a couple pages ago about the big picture. I think we all agree on a few things. Evil or bad terrible things happen. We all struggle....within and without. Great things, fantastic things, unbelievable things happen as well. How we define these things, the language we use, seems to be less important.
Although, language can affect us, our view of the world and of ourselves. It can shape how we act, how well we respond and recover and overcome. Does it take personal responsibility out of the equation? A little? a lot? Does it hinder or help you in the internal battle to choose what is good and acceptable? Does it take the most of the decision making, the reasoning, out of your hands? I'm not making accusations, just throwing some things out to consider.
I was asking for different views on this as well as the Biblical justification. Maybe it's my problem with authority but, only using the Bible and taking only it's word on the accusation of the devil being all evil all the time, IMO, is kind of like letting your world view to be shaped by only watching Fox News and nothing else. Fans of history will know that those in power write the history. Most of the time anyways. That was why I was also asking for the "other side of the story." IMO, it is always a good idea to consult those books upon books upon books....or in this case, posters. Because, as I said, the story as in the Bible doesn't completely jive for me. I don't mean just the fall, but the long term story.
I think there has been a lot of good discussion so far...intresting ideas, theories, and a little history as well.
The word satan means challenger. With the leading ha- to make haSatan,
it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. Satan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can
be a meaningful choice. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic--you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.
what i have never understood about the whole devil story is why it's scattered all over the old testament. the old testament is full of stories with beginnings, middles and ends--why is what is theoretically one of the most crucial stories veiled in metaphor and spread hither and yon? (please don't tell me it's because it's too important for "just anyone" to know.)
and how can i trust anyone's attempts to put the pieces together when they seem perfectly willing to make statements which are so blatantly untrue, like this (sorry, wordwolf, you just happened to give me the best example):
"He's referred to as a star...In fact, this is rendered nearly the same, or EXACTLY the same, as the title Jesus has at the end of Revelation."
how is "star of the morning" EXACTLY the same as "bright morning star?" not in english. what about in the original languages? well, "star of the morning" is one word in the hebrew, heylel. (in the kjv, that one word is translated "lucifer, son of the morning.") what does it mean? no one seems to agree EXACTLY. various "experts" say "lightbearer" or "shining one" or "daystar" or "morning star" or something along those lines. but "bright morning star" is THREE words in the greek, aster, lampros and proinos, meaning something like "shining (or resplendent) morning star."
my point is simply that THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. but they get put together by bible put-togetherers, just like all that other supposedly-about-lucifer stuff gets put together. and it just doesn't work for me.
maybe i'm silly, but i think GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH, should be able to do better than that.
what i have never understood about the whole devil story is why it's scattered all over the old testament. the old testament is full of stories with beginnings, middles and ends--why is what is theoretically one of the most crucial stories veiled in metaphor and spread hither and yon? (please don't tell me it's because it's too important for "just anyone" to know.)
Possibly, and this is Mo speaking here--- very often in the ancient world , and in many cultures today, to name a thing gave it "power" as did discussion about it. I don't know if this is a reason--Abi might have some insight into that from a Jewish perspective--But I offer it as a possibility
Actually Allen, I have no issues with the "o" in God, what was posted above was a cut and paste, which I forgot to post the link to. However, the reason many of the more stricter practicing Jews leave the "o" out has to do with respect and a concern for the name of God being desecrated - as in when a piece of paper is thrown in the garbage. I do not entirely understand the reasoning behind it, which is why I don't practice it.
Mo, unfortunately I can't shed anymore light. As I have posted already, the Christian understanding of the devil is simply that, the Christian understanding. Jews don't believe in the devil. There is an understanding of Satan, as I also posted above, but even there I see it more as figurative than literal. There are a few contradictory practices within Judaism regarding names, depending ethnic background, but again those are not beliefs I adhere to or see as being documented Biblically.
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a fundamentalist view or a view
3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Present Tense
5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
How many people are in the wilderness? who is the Devil talking about?
7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Worshipo ME! Don't be selfless, think of yourself. Think of what you can gain by worshipping yourself!
8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Still only one person here.
9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Show me your miracles, you are not the Son of God, you can't do it like it is written.
12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Damn straight, get off my back you selfish ego, prideful SELF>
God the Father of Lights lives in me.
His will will I do not mine.
13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
John 14
30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Defeated
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Jesus burned the 'devil' out. Because of 'every word of God' in his heart. The only way the devil could do anything then was through other people.
And of course it wasn't this intense all the time.
Like that movie. 'LIAR LIAR'. He kicked his own foot.
The servant of God, not making God his servant.
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allan w.
It's o.k. Dancing, most of us have Bibles, maybe you don't need to reem off pages of scriptures.
Sir Guess...'Flowery' again
Abi...Jewish tinted glasses
Blah blah blah...goodnight !
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sirguessalot
haha...too funny, dancing
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Oakspear
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allan w.
yeah...sorry, I just took it for granted that most of us knew the thing backwards and sideways anyways.
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allan w.
And Oaks..the amount of 'putting down' that anything to do with pfal beliefs cops, sort of 'infers' that those that 'adhere' to it are idiots, wellll...in my books makes me feel o.k. to believe that those that have shunned it are idiots too !!
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Oakspear
Wordwolf gave you some good advice a while back on how to conduct arguments, I'd take it if I were you.
So...anything to contribute? Or are you just gonna sling mud?
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Oakspear
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Abigail
Oakspear,
"Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; "
There is a clear reference here, in my opinion, to Lucifer as a "man". From a Jewish perspective, all men - Jew or not - are loved by God and have a purpose on this earth and in the worlds to come. Most Jewish sects do not view the world with the mentality that you are Jewish or you are scum/condemned to hell/an unbeliever mentality. We don't have the "saved or unsaved" thing going on.
Instead, it is believed that the over 600 Mitzvot in the OT apply to the Jewish people for a specific purpose; and the rest of the people are only commanded to follow the 7 commands given by Noah. With that in mind, the King of Babylon would have been loved by God, and his breaking of the 7 Noahic laws would have greatly disappointed God. The same would apply to the prince of Tyrus. Remember too, that throughout history, many kings/pharohs/rulers did see themselves as God's and were worshipped as such.
"Someone pointed out that no man is ever called a "cherub". But is Satan called a cherub anywhere else. What exactly are the cherubs? "
Cherubs are the highest ranking angels, much like the king of Bablylon and the prince of Tyrus were once among the highest ranking men. I view it as a figure of speech.
"When was it decided that this did refer to Satan? Was it ever viwed that way in pre-Christian times? Did the Church Fathers view it that way? "
I cannot speak for what the Church Fathers thought. However, it is unlikely that these verses were understood to have been speaking of a devil in pre-Christian times by the Jewish people, as that concept simply is not a Jewish concept. Over time, after the Christian movement took hold, and particularly in the 1400's and 1500's there were groups within Judaism who adopted some of Christianity's concepts regarding evil spirits, resulting in some interesting superstitions that even our more fundamental believers here on the board would laugh at. But even then, there was no belief in a "devil".
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Bramble
I'll bow out. I only popped in on this thread because Lindy asked something about WIcca so I had something to discuss on the subject. I have no deep interest in devil theology or black threads, since I don't believe in either. Nor am I interested in a Believer/Unbeliever war, which I think is pointless.
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Sunesis
Sorry I upset everyone. I was not meaning to insult anyone.
I think sometimes, we get great threads going, then - here comes the poetry. Sometimes, I'd just like a regular discussion.
I note hardly anyone posts in this section anymore.
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dancing
Didn't upset me Sunesis.
And it's funny how this poetry or flowery language delivers such a message that it scares the crap out of some.
God will never leave you or forsake you.
At some point either now or after we die,
this outer shell will change and the inside will be out.
And Christ Jesus will still be there too.
When we see what this 'devil' is we will have a good laugh.
Remember he became sin for us.
He has already fixed the problem.
The rest is an illusion.
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sirguessalot
i hate to seem so argumentative
but for what its worth, you didnt upset me, either Sunesis
though you seem to be upset...i could be wrong
i do find it somewhat saddening
how you can come think that a thread is great
until something is posted that you dont like
Lindy posted an open request for thoughts
and as far as i can tell, that includes mine
imo, not all threads function the same way as you think conversations flow
or are intended to
they seem to tend to be more self-organizing
though we can and do bring our own set of expectations and assumptions to them
and...calling it 'poetry' doesnt make it mere poetry, either...
just as calling it flowery doesnt make it somehow less than
or somehow irregular
besides, since when does speaking "poetically" become some sort of unbiblical or irregular act?
honestly...how one can come to this conclusion is quite puzzling to me
(which makes me an idiot in this regard...cuz i am truly stumped and baffled)
but regardless...as far as i can tell, speaking for myself
what most of what i have has been quite literal and direct
really
and even where i use metaphor
i typically contextualize it with enough to dissolve any mystery of what i am writing about
maybe read slower or something
quote something specific that i wrote and show me how the poetics of it are wrong or unscriptual
show me my blasphemy using my own words...so we all know what you are referring to
and too, i noticed that a lot of people still post in this section
just look at the dates on the threads
it seems this forum has actually been more active than most other forums around here
i do hope you are going to be ok with all this
peace,
Todd
to add...there are some schools of thought
where people agree to write or speak about their thoughts and opinions about things in a general sense
and agree not to try and fix and correct each other
just a safe place to air your thoughts on whatever topic
and openly inquire of each other's deeper reasons for writing what they did
(rather than projecting our own stories into the meaning)
like breaking bread and passing it around a campfire
it can be quite refreshing really
and easier said than done
so it takes a bit of practice
but quite worth it in the end
(notice..no poetry was used in the making of this thread, except for one line, which i started with the word "like", but i used a biblical metaphor)
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sirguessalot
what seems kind of odd to me
is how one can speak of the devil in a sense that takes the most personal responsibility for our self direction
and in a way that addresses our utter interior and inherited brokenness and lack of perfection
and in a way that is agreed to be very very difficult and painful and soulful
in which there is no guarantee to succeed
yet Jesus did succeed, and showed us the only way to God
(and i would add...he also showed us the way from God, and back again)
yada yada
yet some do react as if this same person is
some sort of messenger of the devil
contradicting gospel truths
denying christ
etc...
how can this be?
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TheInvisibleDan
"It has also become clear that Isaiah's metaphor of the fallen "Day Star" (Isa. 14.12-15) is to be located in the Ugaritic myth of the fallen astral deities, notably Athtar, who presumed to usurp the throne of Baal; the persistence of this theme is seen in the later development of traditions about Satan (Luke 10.18)."
-p.786, entry on "Ugaritic", The Oxford Companion to the Bible.
"The myth of fallen angels, prominent in later Jewish and Christian theology, does not appear in the Old Testament, though when it arose it could attach itself to Is. 14:12, a reflection of a Canaanite myth that may have actually been the prototype of the Jewish idea." ( p.121, An Outline of Biblical Theology, M. Burrows).
"The third way in which the creation was thought of by the Hebrews and other peoples was the myth of the primeval conflict between God and the dragon of chaos. While known from Babylonian and Canaanite sources, this myth is only echoed in the Old Testament by occasional literary allusions. The Hebrew word for abyss, tehom, corresponds etymologically to the Babylonian name of the primeval monster, Tiamat, but in this case the original ideas has entirely disappeared. Not so with Rahab [Ps. 89:10; Is. 51:9] and Leviathan [Ps.74:14; Isa.27:1]. Apparently the attitude of the later Old Testament writers to this myth was like that of Christian poets to pagan mythology." (ibid, p.117).
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Abigail
As promised and at long last - Judaism's understanding of "Satan" in the book of Job:
I will start with the verses and Rashi's Commentary:
6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.
Now the day came about That day which was Rosh Hashanah, (known as a day of sounding the shofar, and the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded the Adversary to bring the merit and the guilt of all creatures. This is the meaning of “from going to and fro on the earth.”)
and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord to contend with Him, because the expression of standing refers only to judgment, as it is stated (Isa. 3:13): “The Lord stands to plead.”
and the Adversary, too, came among them to accuse the people.
In other words, once a year, on Rosh Hashanah it was the "Adversary's" job to come before God and report to God the merit and guilt (or worthiness) of all things living)
7. The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it."
“From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.” So is my wont to go to and fro, to see the evil ones and the good ones. Now I went to and fro throughout the entire earth and I did not find anyone like Abraham, about whom it is said (Gen. 13:17): “Rise, go to and fro in the land.” The Sages of blessed memory (Baba Bathra 16a) said that the Adversary meant this for the sake of Heaven, in order that Abraham’s merit not be forgotten by our God.
8. Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil."
Have you paid attention to My servant Job that you should desire to denounce him?
9. And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” This is a question.
10. Haven't You made a hedge around him, his household, and all that he has on all sides? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land.
Haven’t You made a hedge around him Because he knows that You visit him frequently to perform miracles for him, and he is fruitful and multiplies; therefore he performs all these righteous deeds-but You have not tested him.
11. But now, stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?"
But were you to touch all that he has, would he not blaspheme You to Your face immediately? This is a question. And then, the Lord said to the Adversary, “Behold, all that he has is in your hands.”
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lindyhopper
Thanks Danny, very informative.
Thanks to everyone else as well. I think it is important to get many different views on this type of stuff.
I think Abi made a good point a couple pages ago about the big picture. I think we all agree on a few things. Evil or bad terrible things happen. We all struggle....within and without. Great things, fantastic things, unbelievable things happen as well. How we define these things, the language we use, seems to be less important.
Although, language can affect us, our view of the world and of ourselves. It can shape how we act, how well we respond and recover and overcome. Does it take personal responsibility out of the equation? A little? a lot? Does it hinder or help you in the internal battle to choose what is good and acceptable? Does it take the most of the decision making, the reasoning, out of your hands? I'm not making accusations, just throwing some things out to consider.
I was asking for different views on this as well as the Biblical justification. Maybe it's my problem with authority but, only using the Bible and taking only it's word on the accusation of the devil being all evil all the time, IMO, is kind of like letting your world view to be shaped by only watching Fox News and nothing else. Fans of history will know that those in power write the history. Most of the time anyways. That was why I was also asking for the "other side of the story." IMO, it is always a good idea to consult those books upon books upon books....or in this case, posters. Because, as I said, the story as in the Bible doesn't completely jive for me. I don't mean just the fall, but the long term story.
I think there has been a lot of good discussion so far...intresting ideas, theories, and a little history as well.
Keep it coming.
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Abigail
Here's a great definition:
The word satan means challenger. With the leading ha- to make haSatan,
it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. Satan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can
be a meaningful choice. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic--you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.
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sprawled out
what i have never understood about the whole devil story is why it's scattered all over the old testament. the old testament is full of stories with beginnings, middles and ends--why is what is theoretically one of the most crucial stories veiled in metaphor and spread hither and yon? (please don't tell me it's because it's too important for "just anyone" to know.)
and how can i trust anyone's attempts to put the pieces together when they seem perfectly willing to make statements which are so blatantly untrue, like this (sorry, wordwolf, you just happened to give me the best example):
"He's referred to as a star...In fact, this is rendered nearly the same, or EXACTLY the same, as the title Jesus has at the end of Revelation."
how is "star of the morning" EXACTLY the same as "bright morning star?" not in english. what about in the original languages? well, "star of the morning" is one word in the hebrew, heylel. (in the kjv, that one word is translated "lucifer, son of the morning.") what does it mean? no one seems to agree EXACTLY. various "experts" say "lightbearer" or "shining one" or "daystar" or "morning star" or something along those lines. but "bright morning star" is THREE words in the greek, aster, lampros and proinos, meaning something like "shining (or resplendent) morning star."
my point is simply that THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. but they get put together by bible put-togetherers, just like all that other supposedly-about-lucifer stuff gets put together. and it just doesn't work for me.
maybe i'm silly, but i think GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH, should be able to do better than that.
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dancing
So what's up wordwolf,
You got some input.
wassup?
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allan w.
Careful...the 'smart a@sed comments' policeman might pop up !!
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templelady
Possibly, and this is Mo speaking here--- very often in the ancient world , and in many cultures today, to name a thing gave it "power" as did discussion about it. I don't know if this is a reason--Abi might have some insight into that from a Jewish perspective--But I offer it as a possibility
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allan w.
I hope not because she keeps dropping the 'O' in G_D !!
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Abigail
Actually Allen, I have no issues with the "o" in God, what was posted above was a cut and paste, which I forgot to post the link to. However, the reason many of the more stricter practicing Jews leave the "o" out has to do with respect and a concern for the name of God being desecrated - as in when a piece of paper is thrown in the garbage. I do not entirely understand the reasoning behind it, which is why I don't practice it.
Mo, unfortunately I can't shed anymore light. As I have posted already, the Christian understanding of the devil is simply that, the Christian understanding. Jews don't believe in the devil. There is an understanding of Satan, as I also posted above, but even there I see it more as figurative than literal. There are a few contradictory practices within Judaism regarding names, depending ethnic background, but again those are not beliefs I adhere to or see as being documented Biblically.
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