I have to agree with you there, Sprawled Out. In my opinion, any brand of Christianity that discourages the use of our critical thinking skills is encouraging a mindless religion. I also think your conclusion is correct about church groups that do that – their followers acquire an intellectual helplessness – which is great for building dependency in their followers – guaranteeing repeat customers!
I think God puts a lot of stock in one of His finest creations – our brains – and expects us to use them. Maybe that was the reason He had a whole book dedicated to the art of THINKING wisely – Proverbs.
Remember those times at conferences, and listening to tapes and talking to people when 'something just didn't seem quite right?' That was GOD telling you it WAS NOT QUITE RIGHT.
Why should God get "credit" for what conclusions you came to yourself?
It would bug the stuffing out of me when people would pray for things - like parking spaces - that just didn't need to be prayed for. Why would God care? Why would God tell you what toothpaste to buy or what the best grocery store might be? Why is your measly life so freakin' important to God? And didn't God give you the ability to make decisions and get information for yourself?
Churches aren't the only organizations that do this all the time - you see it all the time in marketing. The ultimate chicken or the egg argument could be, who started it? Who started with wanting and being your first thought?
I think that so many times we (meaning anyone that this shoe fits) are so hungry for some sort of spirituality that we grasp at straws. It's made worse when a person at a pulpit starts spewing his examples of how The Almighty has blessed him by putting toothpaste on sale or made a light turn green. Somehow now there is an example to follow. The truth is that the truth frequently gets ignored. God's hand may truly be at work in a person's life - but it goes unnoticed because that person is too busy attributing the mundane to the CREATOR.
The end result is that it really cheapens the real miracles, and waters down the times when God is truly at work. Afterall, if EVERYTHING is "wonderful and miraculous" then in reality NOTHING is wonderful and miraculous. Signs, miracles and wonders are supposed to stand out.
I too have tossed into the trash can this concept of us humans being nothing more than sinful, wretches, born in unrighteousness and bound for destruction, who just _cannot_ make a righteous or moral decision by ourselves. Particularly when it is cloaked in the dishonest guises of 'grace' and 'He saved us, and we cannot save ourselves'. Looks so loving and so wonderful, ... yet only after you embrace this theology do the fangs of guilt and fear come out, and they let you know that "Hey! Who are YOU to question GOD?! He saved YOU, and if you dare to openly challenge/scrutinize it, He will be **wroth** with thee!" and so forth and so on.
And even if those who are more moderate don't behave that way, you read enough scripture, and that is what comes out one way or another.
great post... i remember my wow sister was hyped on this ... God told me... god told me to wash this floor and i found a button... sorta' deal...
I could barely stand being in her presence. In the second month of our wow year she picked up with another wow from another wow family and disappeared. Turns out God told them to elope.
:unsure:
Sprawled Out,
I couldn't agree more!! I often chuckle heartily at Exxie's perfect few words!
Garth, I too love threads like this and always appreciate your honest input. Your comments certainly hit me right between the eyes. And since I opened my big mouth earlier on this thread I feel like I ought to share my take on things – and dutifully insert foot in mouth. What you described WAS my normal operating mindset back in TWI-daze. Since leaving that mentality – I view some things differently.
Please understand this is not a defense of Christianity or of my viewpoint – I just wish to explain my viewpoint – my personal faith. I certainly don’t view people who are not Christian as incapable of making a righteous or moral decision…If I may be permitted to render some ideas as religiously neutral – maybe that will help me get my point across better. And again – I’m not trying to defend Christianity or represent myself as a qualified theologian – this is just my dumb interpretation of things…so here goes:
Things like sanctification, mortification, and pursuing godliness I view as a process of self-improvement [my religiously neutral term]. I’m a technician by trade so I get really excited by processes – I’m always looking for a good way to do something or to improve on the way something gets done. Sometimes I think I get hung up on focusing on a process and forget what the purpose of the process is. The goal of my self-improvement process is kinda broad: become more Christ-like, please my Lord, serve my fellowman, etc.
For want of a better analogy I look at myself and others as a pretty good operating system but susceptible to user-error. To pick back up on my TWI-daze – I think I focused more on the process: “Am I doing this right – how would VPW do that?...Should I do this or that – better talk to my leadership…Oh I really screwed that up – man am I gonna hear it from LCM!” Don’t think I ever focused much on what I was becoming – a perfect TWI follower. That’s because that was the purpose of TWI’s way of processing things…Some of how I understand grace now is that it is God’s loving assistance in time of need. I see grace as using my brain [which I believe He designed] to work out a solution – and there’s always the distinct possibility of His gracious influence via His Spirit in me and/or working in people/situations that cross my path.
I’ve never heard an audible voice of God – don’t understand how the Holy Spirit works – but I believe He’s at work in me. I do read the Scriptures quite a bit but try to read with an active mind. So sometimes when I read or reflect on Scripture – something will hit me that may or may not be related at all to the passage, like: “Am I guilty of doing that?” or “Maybe I should adopt that habit” or “maybe that situation I’m worrying about is a matter of prayer” or “I think I should see how my son’s work project is coming.”…Anyway – is that all just coming from me? Is any of that attributable to God’s Spirit? I dunno. Like I said – I’m more into the goal than the process. What kind of person am I now? What kind of person am I becoming?
this all reminds me of one of my first encounters with twi. friends of a friend said "God got us this great apartment. only $300 a month!" (it was back around 1976.) my first reaction was, "if God got it for you, why isn't it only $150 a month? or better yet, free?"
of course, that was before i got suckered in. and now here i am, 30 years later, back to myself!
Probably more thinking…you know how some people like to think on their feet…or is that some people like a stink on their feet…I dunno…better check Bartlettes.
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oldiesman
Nah.
There was ooodles of times I felt very good about myself and still participated in twi-1.
As someone once said,
Feelings come and feelings go...
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T-Bone
I have to agree with you there, Sprawled Out. In my opinion, any brand of Christianity that discourages the use of our critical thinking skills is encouraging a mindless religion. I also think your conclusion is correct about church groups that do that – their followers acquire an intellectual helplessness – which is great for building dependency in their followers – guaranteeing repeat customers!
I think God puts a lot of stock in one of His finest creations – our brains – and expects us to use them. Maybe that was the reason He had a whole book dedicated to the art of THINKING wisely – Proverbs.
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excathedra
actually it was my mother
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ChasUFarley
I get what you're saying - I really do.
Why should God get "credit" for what conclusions you came to yourself?
It would bug the stuffing out of me when people would pray for things - like parking spaces - that just didn't need to be prayed for. Why would God care? Why would God tell you what toothpaste to buy or what the best grocery store might be? Why is your measly life so freakin' important to God? And didn't God give you the ability to make decisions and get information for yourself?
Churches aren't the only organizations that do this all the time - you see it all the time in marketing. The ultimate chicken or the egg argument could be, who started it? Who started with wanting and being your first thought?
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doojable
Spot on Sprawled out .....
I think that so many times we (meaning anyone that this shoe fits) are so hungry for some sort of spirituality that we grasp at straws. It's made worse when a person at a pulpit starts spewing his examples of how The Almighty has blessed him by putting toothpaste on sale or made a light turn green. Somehow now there is an example to follow. The truth is that the truth frequently gets ignored. God's hand may truly be at work in a person's life - but it goes unnoticed because that person is too busy attributing the mundane to the CREATOR.
The end result is that it really cheapens the real miracles, and waters down the times when God is truly at work. Afterall, if EVERYTHING is "wonderful and miraculous" then in reality NOTHING is wonderful and miraculous. Signs, miracles and wonders are supposed to stand out.
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GarthP2000
I *love* threads like this; I really do!
I too have tossed into the trash can this concept of us humans being nothing more than sinful, wretches, born in unrighteousness and bound for destruction, who just _cannot_ make a righteous or moral decision by ourselves. Particularly when it is cloaked in the dishonest guises of 'grace' and 'He saved us, and we cannot save ourselves'. Looks so loving and so wonderful,
... yet only after you embrace this theology do the fangs of guilt and fear come out, and they let you know that "Hey! Who are YOU to question GOD?! He saved YOU, and if you dare to openly challenge/scrutinize it, He will be **wroth** with thee!" and so forth and so on. 
And even if those who are more moderate don't behave that way, you read enough scripture, and that is what comes out one way or another.
That's what grace is all about?!? :o
But, in any event, please continue ..... :B)
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sprawled out
no, really, ex--you're getting funnier. you're like the "One-Liner Champion" of GSC! all you need is a rimshot sound effect. ba-dum-bum.
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A la prochaine
Dooj....
great post... i remember my wow sister was hyped on this ... God told me... god told me to wash this floor and i found a button... sorta' deal...
I could barely stand being in her presence. In the second month of our wow year she picked up with another wow from another wow family and disappeared. Turns out God told them to elope.
:unsure:
Sprawled Out,
I couldn't agree more!! I often chuckle heartily at Exxie's perfect few words!
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T-Bone
Garth, I too love threads like this and always appreciate your honest input. Your comments certainly hit me right between the eyes. And since I opened my big mouth earlier on this thread I feel like I ought to share my take on things – and dutifully insert foot in mouth. What you described WAS my normal operating mindset back in TWI-daze. Since leaving that mentality – I view some things differently.
Please understand this is not a defense of Christianity or of my viewpoint – I just wish to explain my viewpoint – my personal faith. I certainly don’t view people who are not Christian as incapable of making a righteous or moral decision…If I may be permitted to render some ideas as religiously neutral – maybe that will help me get my point across better. And again – I’m not trying to defend Christianity or represent myself as a qualified theologian – this is just my dumb interpretation of things…so here goes:
Things like sanctification, mortification, and pursuing godliness I view as a process of self-improvement [my religiously neutral term]. I’m a technician by trade so I get really excited by processes – I’m always looking for a good way to do something or to improve on the way something gets done. Sometimes I think I get hung up on focusing on a process and forget what the purpose of the process is. The goal of my self-improvement process is kinda broad: become more Christ-like, please my Lord, serve my fellowman, etc.
For want of a better analogy I look at myself and others as a pretty good operating system but susceptible to user-error. To pick back up on my TWI-daze – I think I focused more on the process: “Am I doing this right – how would VPW do that?...Should I do this or that – better talk to my leadership…Oh I really screwed that up – man am I gonna hear it from LCM!” Don’t think I ever focused much on what I was becoming – a perfect TWI follower. That’s because that was the purpose of TWI’s way of processing things…Some of how I understand grace now is that it is God’s loving assistance in time of need. I see grace as using my brain [which I believe He designed] to work out a solution – and there’s always the distinct possibility of His gracious influence via His Spirit in me and/or working in people/situations that cross my path.
I’ve never heard an audible voice of God – don’t understand how the Holy Spirit works – but I believe He’s at work in me. I do read the Scriptures quite a bit but try to read with an active mind. So sometimes when I read or reflect on Scripture – something will hit me that may or may not be related at all to the passage, like: “Am I guilty of doing that?” or “Maybe I should adopt that habit” or “maybe that situation I’m worrying about is a matter of prayer” or “I think I should see how my son’s work project is coming.”…Anyway – is that all just coming from me? Is any of that attributable to God’s Spirit? I dunno. Like I said – I’m more into the goal than the process. What kind of person am I now? What kind of person am I becoming?
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sprawled out
this all reminds me of one of my first encounters with twi. friends of a friend said "God got us this great apartment. only $300 a month!" (it was back around 1976.) my first reaction was, "if God got it for you, why isn't it only $150 a month? or better yet, free?"
of course, that was before i got suckered in. and now here i am, 30 years later, back to myself!
feels damn good.
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doojable
Is that why you're dancing, Sprawled?
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sprawled out
that's a BIG part of it, dooj!
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T-Bone
And that's why some religions discourage thinking...because it can lead to dancing.
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sprawled out
and everyone knows what dancing can lead to!
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doojable
More dancing?
:dance:
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Sushi
Among the dances it leads to are (but not necessarily limited to):
The Lindy
The Horizontal bop
and last, but certainly not least,
TheTube Snake Boogie
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T-Bone
Probably more thinking…you know how some people like to think on their feet…or is that some people like a stink on their feet…I dunno…better check Bartlettes.
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