The two stories I related above are only the tip of what many are distressed about. There are undoubtedly many other programs that are believed to exist whereby aliens, and illegal aliens are said to acquire benefits which it is said citizens cannot receive. In neither of the two above, were the recipients described as illegal by the poster bringing them to the table.
In other similiar stories I have heard both here and in other internet or newsprint sources, illegal immigrants are claimed to receive these benefits.
I have numerous questions already at this time.
First is: DO GOVERNMENT BENEFIT PROGRAMS EXIST FOR WHICH ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE ELIGIBLE BUT NOT CITIZENS??
Secondly: HOW ABOUT FOR LEGAL RESIDENT ALIENS?
Thirdly: IF THEY EXIST, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THEM?
KICK OUT THE RECIPIENTS? (shoot the recipients? oops that is a carryover, sorry)
CHANGE THE LAWS THAT ENABLE THE PROGRAMS? (shoot the lawmakers?)
COMPLAIN BUT NOT PURSUE THE ISSUE IN HOPES IT WILL GO AWAY?
Who can identify the specific programs that they have heard about and are upset about.
Are they in fact funded by taxpayer dollars? Is it State or Federal tax monies?
Who are the beneficiaries? Are they legally here in the US? Illegally? Can citizens get the same benefits?
What are the specified eligibility requirements for any of the programs?
Who are the lawmakers that have passed laws enabling these programs?
Are you upset about benefit programs for LEGAL resident aliens?
I am of the belief that any government funded benefit program for citizens, residents, or immigrants (legal or not) MUST have publically accessible specific rules, targets, information. I also believe that there has to be publicly accessible laws and appropriations which have funded them. What are the laws, where are the rules?
All government funding is done through Congress is it not?
Ok, hopefully that can get this started. I have heard so long about these programs, I want to know more about the issues and what can or should be done, assuming they exist.
The United States Code, Title 8- (Aliens and Nationality), Chapter 14 (Restricting Welfare and Public Benefits for Aliens) upon cursory glance would seem to bar such benefits for illegal aliens in most cases. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/usc...ers/14/toc.html
I don't know of any benefits that citizens of The United States cannot get that immigrants can. But I did find a site that lists by state all the benefits that an immigrant is eligible for. Maybe this will help.
Wow, I did not know that veterans injured by friendly fire are not eligible for disability or pensions. Do I remember that more of our soldiers in GulfWarI were killed by friendly fire than by the enemy? How about injuries? I do not know. (I meant to say I do not know if what I remember is accurate) Seems to be something terribly wrong with the VA if that is the case.
THAT is NOT true. Veterans injured/disabled (either partially or fully) in ANY way by ANY service-connected activity ARE eligible for medical care through the VA in a higher priority group than ANY who are NOT injured or disabled due to service-connected activity. Further, Veterans with ANY service-connected ongoing disability ARE eligible for disability pay through the VA. And CERTAINLY any pension any veteran is otherwise eligible for is also NOT changed/removed due to a service-connected injury.
HOWEVER, the process by which veterans are DEEMED for such purposes to be suffering any kind of service-connected disability is often difficult and time consuming (as in it takes months and sometimes years to get it accomplished... which is also the case for persons seeking disability benefits through the Social Security Administration).
I do not know much about benefit programs for which resident "aliens" (documented or not) are or may be eligible... since I don't know any such resident aliens (makes me think of the movie Men in Black).
I left some of the answers over in the "Gangs" thread but if they should be moved here I will gladly do so Hap.
One of the things though is you cannot automatically receive VA benefits anymore. That changed within the last few years. And part of the reason was due to Clinton having robbed our military to make it appear we were having a healthy economy. We were told by the VA Clinic that something had to be done to assure there would be funds left for the present and future soldiers of foreign wars.
Part of the aid the Somalia's are getting is tied to a government aid for destitute citizens of war torn countries (and I swear I cannot think of the right words so will do so and when they come to my cloudy head will bring them back here).
(I've let this laptop affect my mood, sorry 'bout that)
Posted by me in Nostalgia but it really should have been here I know.
I just can't understand why I can't see my face. :unsure:
But I am going to Best Buy to look at laptops and even if I have to paint my skin and speak in another language to get aid to pay for it I will. LMAO.
And I swear one of these days no one will ever call be sweet again I bet.
Or I could take advantage of something I never have and that would be my American Indian rights to aid. Something I have never done due to knowing I didn't have a GENUINE need to do so.
I swear I am not meaning to sound like I don't like you because you are different. I just don't like you because you suck me dry and think you are due it.
Okay I swear I will stop spouting off in this thread.
One of the things though is you cannot automatically receive VA benefits anymore. That changed within the last few years. And part of the reason was due to Clinton having robbed our military to make it appear we were having a healthy economy. We were told by the VA Clinic that something had to be done to assure there would be funds left for the present and future soldiers of foreign wars.
Kathy, I have NO idea what you are talking about. Veterans ARE automatically eligible to receive VA benefits upon separation from active duty (I believe one must serve at least six months active duty), unless their discharge is dishonorable.
Perhaps you are referring to something more specific? To which particular benefits are you referring?
And Clinton did not "rob our military." IF you mean that military spending severely decreased during his administration, there's much more to it than an oversimplified blame game. Congress establishes budgets for each agency/department. Another word for it is "appropriation" or the authorized spending levels. I know that there were plenty of folks during his adminstration making the same claim... the process of "streamlining" the military, or reducing spending was actually Bush 41's legacy (or, it was started before Clinton's administration).
IF you are referring to VA medical benefits, which are no longer automatically available to veterans, that too was well after Clinton left office... and more than likely someone at the VA was spouting off about his political views rather than giving you legitimate background on the reasons for it. After January 2003, the only veterans to receive medical benefits (and this has NOTHING to do with "friendly fire" incidents) either have service-connected medical needs OR have income/assets that do not exceed certain levels (a means test). And those income/asset thresholds also determine (each year) for enrolled (non-service connected) veterans whether or not they will be required to pay co-pays for doctor visits and/or prescriptions.
Yes, thank you, I was referring to VA medical benefits which are not automatically available to past veterans (like my husband) and that changed in January 03 as you stated. Unless you were already accepted and then you were grandfathered in. But anyone getting in after that has to qualify and for the first couple of years repeat a means test to see if still eligible. But the reason it changed was because there were not sufficient funds to provide for the further veterans of foreign wars. That was not someone with a political opinion as best as I have surmised. That is the reason the law changed in January of 03. And yes, hubby pays co-pay and something towards his meds.
So I was in error not to be specific as to the medical benefits.
As to the spending or lack thereof I know that it's not always the decisions of the man in office at the time. However the haters of Bush fail to mention that often, rather they blame him for things in place before he was in office like apparently I did regarding Clinton. Yet, I'm not convinced he was innocent of some of the false appearance of a healthier economy but that is one of those touchy feely things that best be left alone by me because I haven't the time or even desire to dig into all those details anymore. The reason is quite frankly I don't believe half of what I read no matter where it is generated so one cannot just research on your own and expect to find complete truths.
Won't it be nice if we can keep it here? If it becomes totally politically oriented, I guess it could be taken to Decaf, but lets try it here for now? Actually at the time I finally got around to starting the thread, it was so early this am that I can't seem to get going today.
NOTE: I think the only way to hope to keep this in Open forum is if we can avoid placing blame on a particular administration for the programs we might discuss. I would like to keep the discussion on identifying the programs people perceive to be the problem, learning whether the defined goals of them are what we believe them to be, perhaps there is abuse of programs that ARE appropriate? What programs should be done away with? What laws need to be changed?
I guess what got me going on this is I HEAR "they" are getting all this tax-paid help and "I" can't get...... I wonder how many of these are true, how many are misunderstandings of what is being given away and by whom and to whom. I know I cannot tell by looking at, or even in most cases by talking to, someone whether they are here legally, illegally or if they are citizens. Is it often the case that those who speak about people receiving these benefits are not sure either? I do not mean the case Kathy is talking about.
Concerning aid to refugees
I think it is clear the recipients from Somalia she knows are here legally, and are able to get some kind of assistance through money that was appropriated under a specific government program, which she has now described as a form of aid to refugees from war-torn areas. Assumedly, Congress appropriated the funds for this after some period of debate, and it must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Is it being abused beyond its designed goals? On what scale?
Kathy- is there something about the program itself to which you object? Do you know what the design of the program is for? I doubt that its design is to see how much we can give to people from other countries. Is it to help foreign nationals to get an education that they can take back to their country of origin and help it to become less needful of future humanitarian aid? Is there merit to that type of a program (if that IS what it is in fact about). Are you angry because of the attitude you got from these people or thatthe program itself exists, or both/ other?
Veterans
It seems apparent that there are problems, and HAVE been problems within The VA. I believe it unlikely that veterans who were injured from friendly-fire are not able to get the same benefits, as those who suffered from enemy combatant fire and have the same level of disability. It just does not make sense to me that it could be so. It DOES seem to me that it is quite possible that changes need to be made in the policies to streamline the ability to get help for which all veterans qualify for. Am I wrong on those injuries? Is there not enough money appropriated? Are there severe administrative issues to be addressed?
Education K-12
I hear many complaints about the numbers of immigrants in our public schools.
What are your thoughts in general about allowing the children of non-citizens to attend?
What if the children were born here, but their parents are without documentation?
Should they be allowed to attend if the parents are gainfully employed and paying taxes?
Not employed?
My view is that these are children! They need an education whether they end up living here or are returned to (as it has been called) "where they came from". (I remember that phrase also utilized when black/white desegregation was discussed in the 60s). I do not care whether they were born here or were brought over in the back of a truck, or came through the airport.
Health
Perhaps the single area I have heard the most concerns raised is in health care and hospital crowding.
Should emergency care be given to undocumented residents?
How about general sickness care?
Are citizens really being denied care because of overcrowding or overuse by immigrants?
How much does this really affect health care costs?
I know I raised many questions, gave no answers, and gave few of my own views. I am still trying to frame the issue. Give me time, LOL, ya know I do not hesitate to share my views.
I still would like to know what the programs are that people the last year or more have expressed such anger about.
Yes, thank you, I was referring to VA medical benefits which are not automatically available to past veterans (like my husband) and that changed in January 03 as you stated. Unless you were already accepted and then you were grandfathered in. But anyone getting in after that has to qualify and for the first couple of years repeat a means test to see if still eligible. But the reason it changed was because there were not sufficient funds to provide for the further veterans of foreign wars. That was not someone with a political opinion as best as I have surmised. That is the reason the law changed in January of 03. And yes, hubby pays co-pay and something towards his meds.
So I was in error not to be specific as to the medical benefits.
As to the spending or lack thereof I know that it's not always the decisions of the man in office at the time. However the haters of Bush fail to mention that often, rather they blame him for things in place before he was in office like apparently I did regarding Clinton. Yet, I'm not convinced he was innocent of some of the false appearance of a healthier economy but that is one of those touchy feely things that best be left alone by me because I haven't the time or even desire to dig into all those details anymore. The reason is quite frankly I don't believe half of what I read no matter where it is generated so one cannot just research on your own and expect to find complete truths.
Kathy
Non-service-connected veterans... those who do not suffer service-connected injury/disability must complete a means test EVERY year. EVERY year, not just for a couple of years. However, once enrolled, a veteran may continue to be enrolled for the rest of his/her life, but whether or not the veteran must pay co-pays is determined by the means test.
It's not EVER the decision of the president. CONGRESS ONLY can appropriate. Period.
And you are correct that it is not something that can simply be "looked up" to determine quickly which president is responsible for what policies, policy decisions, implementations, etc. It takes a long-term study that generally comes either by way of work experience in a government or government related profession/situation and/or college education or some form of continuing adult education.
Not that my background makes me any kind of an expert, but -- having worked for 8+ years for a state government agency as an accountant (and held certification as a CGFM, or certified government financial manager), and about four years reporting and doing technical research on the Arizona Legislature for a political newspaper -- gave me the opportunity to develop some degree of understanding so that I can look beyond the surface of news and opinions put forth by journalists and pundits. Some concepts are more or less the same for the federal govt. as for states.
Excellent post! Full of information, questions and understanding of some of the very things I am concerned about.
I need time to digest it okay.
Rocky,
I haven't read you at all yet but will.
Excath,
There is nothing wrong with what you did dear. It's people receiving more than the ones from this country and what they are doing with it and their attitudes towards us because of it.
It seems apparent that there are problems, and HAVE been problems within The VA. I believe it unlikely that veterans who were injured from friendly-fire are not able to get the same benefits, as those who suffered from enemy combatant fire and have the same level of disability. It just does not make sense to me that it could be so. It DOES seem to me that it is quite possible that changes need to be made in the policies to streamline the ability to get help for which all veterans qualify for. Am I wrong on those injuries? Is there not enough money appropriated? Are there severe administrative issues to be addressed?
YOU are correct sir. Service-connected disability is service-connected disability. Period. There is NO (lawful) distinction.
It was only required for hubby to do a means test in 03 and 04. He has not had to do one since and yes he does a co-pay and certain amount for his drugs. That is the experience I have therefore that was why I was specific in saying 2 years.
And yes again, your exactness of the specific category a veteran is does(oops) doesn't make a difference.
All politicians are evil I think. Rocky will tell you how evil Republicans are, I'll tell you how evil Democrats are. But Kathy, you prolly have it figured out best ... not worth getting too bent about.
The WW2 generation is fading away ... my step Dad says they keep saying they are going to do something more for those vets .. he says they better hurry. All 4 brothers on my Dad's side were WW2 vets, and 2 on Mom's side. Only one remains.
I seem to recall a program that encouraged foreigners to come start new business in the US. It was a cash cow for many, as I recall. It seems at the time I remember a lot of small business window cleaning accounts with immigrants that would pay me from large rolls of cash. I vaguely recall something about money basically being thrown at them to start these little shops. Plus they probably kept two sets of books and avoided a lot of taxes.
The other benefit to illegals is they can ace out other low skilled labor just because they are willing to work for less. They still get entry into the country, some subsidized health care and good education for the kids. The employer benefits by having more power over them and saving money.
There is also another market on borrowing by illegals. A couple years ago I was at WalMart in Columbia, Missouri. The lady in front of me had a huge cart full of pretty nice stuff, premium stuff. She offers a couple cards that don't work. Then I see her hubby I guess, come over from the next line where he just paid for a cart full of nice stuff. She doesn't speak English so he helps go through a dozen of her cards and pulls out one that isn't maxed. OK, no problem ... off they go.
As a law abiding Ameican, I don't have that privilege. There are lots of hidden "taxes" like that.
A worker at the hospital in that town complained that they have to provide an interpretter for any language. So someone gets a cold, they want some tylenol cold and flu. So of course they go to the free emergency room. The hospital is required to provide an interpretter, 2 hour minimum, charge of $180 or so. Plus all the regular doc and admin' charges. Total for the two Tylenol cold and flu tablets ... $400.
I'd like to know of the official ways we subsidize illegals, but there are other ways. This was getting cold, so I thought I'd chip in some fire. :)
I need to get my feet warm so am going to print this thread and go read it while I get warm somewhere.
I may be away for a bit before I reply but I wanted to mention that I think this is one of the best threads we've ever had and I am excited about the discovery and learning from it.
And I agree let's please keep it in Open so others can read it as well. I don't think everyone goes to decaf and some can't go to 'tacks.
And I feel more at ease just with the understanding from all the folks posting here, even Rocky who is probably the most aggressive towards me is doing it with grace.
It was only required for hubby to do a means test in 03 and 04. He has not had to do one since and yes he does a co-pay and certain amount for his drugs. That is the experience I have therefore that was why I was specific in saying 2 years.
And yes again, your exactness of the specific category a veteran is does(oops) doesn't make a difference.
Means test is WAIVED if the veteran agrees to pay copays for both visits and meds... that doesn't mean they won't ask your husband about it again.
I'm just fixing to print this thread so thought I'd reply before I was away for a bit.
I wanted you to know there was nothing wrong with what you did as an example of you are an American using the aids set in place for that purpose.
Not you could have been in error doing it.
This thread is about people entering our country using our aids and what they intend to do with the learning, health improvements, etc. And the attitudes being shoved in our faces while they are doing it. While some of our children go hungry and can't get the same medical care or education or breaks on debts being incurred.
And what is rumor or truth and what can be done about it.
Rightfully so! Completing a bachelor's degree in three years is no small feat. From the time I started (Aug 72) it was 14 years before I finished mine in May 86... of course, I threw in some of that wayfer stuff in the middle...
And Rhino's partly right... I CAN recognize some good in (some) repubs, and won't deny corruption in Dems (who get caught) ...
...While some of our children go hungry and can't get the same medical care or education or breaks on debts being incurred.
And what is rumor or truth and what can be done about it.
NONE of our children NEED go hungry. Besides Food Stamps for struggling families, most population centers have food banks. Congress HAS funded a program that funds State Childrens' Health Insurance Programs... Last I looked, the feds paid 80 percent to the states needing to chip in 20 percent. This is available nationwide (from the perspective of Congress/federal govt)... whether it's available in your state is dependent on whether your state legislature appropriates the matching 20 percent. I know that Arizona's legislative leadership (repugs) don't like it, even though it's a tremendous deal. Most federally funded programs require the states to match dollar for dollar.
That's an example of WHY I take a dim view of many repugnican lawmakers.
I seem to recall a program that encouraged foreigners to come start new business in the US. It was a cash cow for many, as I recall. It seems at the time I remember a lot of small business window cleaning accounts with immigrants that would pay me from large rolls of cash. I vaguely recall something about money basically being thrown at them to start these little shops. Plus they probably kept two sets of books and avoided a lot of taxes.
The other benefit to illegals is they can ace out other low skilled labor just because they are willing to work for less. They still get entry into the country, some subsidized health care and good education for the kids. The employer benefits by having more power over them and saving money.
There is also another market on borrowing by illegals. A couple years ago I was at WalMart in Columbia, Missouri. The lady in front of me had a huge cart full of pretty nice stuff, premium stuff. She offers a couple cards that don't work. Then I see her hubby I guess, come over from the next line where he just paid for a cart full of nice stuff. She doesn't speak English so he helps go through a dozen of her cards and pulls out one that isn't maxed. OK, no problem ... off they go.
As a law abiding Ameican, I don't have that privilege. There are lots of hidden "taxes" like that.
A worker at the hospital in that town complained that they have to provide an interpretter for any language. So someone gets a cold, they want some tylenol cold and flu. So of course they go to the free emergency room. The hospital is required to provide an interpretter, 2 hour minimum, charge of $180 or so. Plus all the regular doc and admin' charges. Total for the two Tylenol cold and flu tablets ... $400.
I'd like to kow of the official ways we subsidize illegals, but there are other ways. This was getting cold, so I thought I'd chip in some fire. :)
Dunno if it is fire,I have seen far more combustible stuff from you Rhino! Even on this topic. I know before long we will be up to your speed. Please DO try and keep it appropriate for Open, (as you have done here) teehee
Rhino- you mention "I seem to recall", etc. What was the program, did it exist, does it exist? Was it your perception that it existed but may have been something else entirely? Gee, this is like pulling teeth to get specifics! LOL
You mention the benefit to the employer of saving money and having power. Would you still buy from this business? Are you sure he pays them less? Would you turn them in for illegally hiring? It is against the law isn't it? (It is here in Colorado I know) How far would you go to do something about it?
I recall a conversation with someone in chat a while ago. This person was complaing about all the immigrated labor on a construction site for a housing developement he wanted to buy a house in. "Those laborers are driving the wage down" it was said. After listening for awhile, I asked him if he still bought the house. Yes he did. He replied something like "what, you expect people to stop buying the best deal on a house they can get?"
I do not understand this "market on borrowing". What are you saying about the credit cards? They had too many? They owed too much? That they were stolen cards? That there is no intent to pay them off? How do you know whatever your answers are?
How do you know these were "illegals"? What were they doing that you as a law abiding American cannot do? Be way too much in debt? Is that something that only a non-law abiding person can do? How does this affect you? I need more information.
Columbia has a free emergency room? What law requires them to provide an interpreter for "any language"? How do you know who paid the bill? Are there laws that require a hospital to treat anyone no matter what the degree of their illness in an emergency room?
Columbia has a free emergency room? What law requires them to provide an interpreter for "any language"? How do you know who paid the bill? Are there laws that require a hospital to treat anyone no matter what the degree of their illness in an emergency room?
~HAP
It IS my understanding that that IS the case... and regardless of ability to pay the bill, and regardless of immigration status. THAT is one of the biggest concerns in AZ about the undocumented immigrant. Of course, the indigent (who cannot pay for their care) are by no means limited to "illegals." There are a LOT of working poor in AZ who fall into that category (unable to pay). IF there is NO legal requirement, there MAY be a requirement that in order to qualify for medicare/medicaid funding, indigent cannot be turned away without care.
---------
Also, on the S-CHIP's I mentioned in my previous post, but forgot to mention -- to qualify for this program, I understand documentation of legal status for citizenship and/or legal resident alien IS required.
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HAPe4me
The two stories I related above are only the tip of what many are distressed about. There are undoubtedly many other programs that are believed to exist whereby aliens, and illegal aliens are said to acquire benefits which it is said citizens cannot receive. In neither of the two above, were the recipients described as illegal by the poster bringing them to the table.
In other similiar stories I have heard both here and in other internet or newsprint sources, illegal immigrants are claimed to receive these benefits.
I have numerous questions already at this time.
First is: DO GOVERNMENT BENEFIT PROGRAMS EXIST FOR WHICH ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE ELIGIBLE BUT NOT CITIZENS??
Secondly: HOW ABOUT FOR LEGAL RESIDENT ALIENS?
Thirdly: IF THEY EXIST, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THEM?
KICK OUT THE RECIPIENTS? (shoot the recipients? oops that is a carryover, sorry)
CHANGE THE LAWS THAT ENABLE THE PROGRAMS? (shoot the lawmakers?)
COMPLAIN BUT NOT PURSUE THE ISSUE IN HOPES IT WILL GO AWAY?
Who can identify the specific programs that they have heard about and are upset about.
Are they in fact funded by taxpayer dollars? Is it State or Federal tax monies?
Who are the beneficiaries? Are they legally here in the US? Illegally? Can citizens get the same benefits?
What are the specified eligibility requirements for any of the programs?
Who are the lawmakers that have passed laws enabling these programs?
Are you upset about benefit programs for LEGAL resident aliens?
I am of the belief that any government funded benefit program for citizens, residents, or immigrants (legal or not) MUST have publically accessible specific rules, targets, information. I also believe that there has to be publicly accessible laws and appropriations which have funded them. What are the laws, where are the rules?
All government funding is done through Congress is it not?
Ok, hopefully that can get this started. I have heard so long about these programs, I want to know more about the issues and what can or should be done, assuming they exist.
The United States Code, Title 8- (Aliens and Nationality), Chapter 14 (Restricting Welfare and Public Benefits for Aliens) upon cursory glance would seem to bar such benefits for illegal aliens in most cases. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/usc...ers/14/toc.html
Where are the programs then?
~HAP
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VeganXTC
I don't know of any benefits that citizens of The United States cannot get that immigrants can. But I did find a site that lists by state all the benefits that an immigrant is eligible for. Maybe this will help.
http://law.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclo...rnment-services
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Rocky
THAT is NOT true. Veterans injured/disabled (either partially or fully) in ANY way by ANY service-connected activity ARE eligible for medical care through the VA in a higher priority group than ANY who are NOT injured or disabled due to service-connected activity. Further, Veterans with ANY service-connected ongoing disability ARE eligible for disability pay through the VA. And CERTAINLY any pension any veteran is otherwise eligible for is also NOT changed/removed due to a service-connected injury.
HOWEVER, the process by which veterans are DEEMED for such purposes to be suffering any kind of service-connected disability is often difficult and time consuming (as in it takes months and sometimes years to get it accomplished... which is also the case for persons seeking disability benefits through the Social Security Administration).
I do not know much about benefit programs for which resident "aliens" (documented or not) are or may be eligible... since I don't know any such resident aliens (makes me think of the movie Men in Black).
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ChattyKathy
I thought you moved it to 'tacks.
Okay let me catch up.
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ChattyKathy
I left some of the answers over in the "Gangs" thread but if they should be moved here I will gladly do so Hap.
One of the things though is you cannot automatically receive VA benefits anymore. That changed within the last few years. And part of the reason was due to Clinton having robbed our military to make it appear we were having a healthy economy. We were told by the VA Clinic that something had to be done to assure there would be funds left for the present and future soldiers of foreign wars.
Part of the aid the Somalia's are getting is tied to a government aid for destitute citizens of war torn countries (and I swear I cannot think of the right words so will do so and when they come to my cloudy head will bring them back here).
(I've let this laptop affect my mood, sorry 'bout that)
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ChattyKathy
Posted by me in Nostalgia but it really should have been here I know.
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Rocky
Kathy, I have NO idea what you are talking about. Veterans ARE automatically eligible to receive VA benefits upon separation from active duty (I believe one must serve at least six months active duty), unless their discharge is dishonorable.
Perhaps you are referring to something more specific? To which particular benefits are you referring?
And Clinton did not "rob our military." IF you mean that military spending severely decreased during his administration, there's much more to it than an oversimplified blame game. Congress establishes budgets for each agency/department. Another word for it is "appropriation" or the authorized spending levels. I know that there were plenty of folks during his adminstration making the same claim... the process of "streamlining" the military, or reducing spending was actually Bush 41's legacy (or, it was started before Clinton's administration).
IF you are referring to VA medical benefits, which are no longer automatically available to veterans, that too was well after Clinton left office... and more than likely someone at the VA was spouting off about his political views rather than giving you legitimate background on the reasons for it. After January 2003, the only veterans to receive medical benefits (and this has NOTHING to do with "friendly fire" incidents) either have service-connected medical needs OR have income/assets that do not exceed certain levels (a means test). And those income/asset thresholds also determine (each year) for enrolled (non-service connected) veterans whether or not they will be required to pay co-pays for doctor visits and/or prescriptions.
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ChattyKathy
Rocky,
Yes, thank you, I was referring to VA medical benefits which are not automatically available to past veterans (like my husband) and that changed in January 03 as you stated. Unless you were already accepted and then you were grandfathered in. But anyone getting in after that has to qualify and for the first couple of years repeat a means test to see if still eligible. But the reason it changed was because there were not sufficient funds to provide for the further veterans of foreign wars. That was not someone with a political opinion as best as I have surmised. That is the reason the law changed in January of 03. And yes, hubby pays co-pay and something towards his meds.
So I was in error not to be specific as to the medical benefits.
As to the spending or lack thereof I know that it's not always the decisions of the man in office at the time. However the haters of Bush fail to mention that often, rather they blame him for things in place before he was in office like apparently I did regarding Clinton. Yet, I'm not convinced he was innocent of some of the false appearance of a healthier economy but that is one of those touchy feely things that best be left alone by me because I haven't the time or even desire to dig into all those details anymore. The reason is quite frankly I don't believe half of what I read no matter where it is generated so one cannot just research on your own and expect to find complete truths.
Kathy
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HAPe4me
Won't it be nice if we can keep it here? If it becomes totally politically oriented, I guess it could be taken to Decaf, but lets try it here for now? Actually at the time I finally got around to starting the thread, it was so early this am that I can't seem to get going today.
NOTE: I think the only way to hope to keep this in Open forum is if we can avoid placing blame on a particular administration for the programs we might discuss. I would like to keep the discussion on identifying the programs people perceive to be the problem, learning whether the defined goals of them are what we believe them to be, perhaps there is abuse of programs that ARE appropriate? What programs should be done away with? What laws need to be changed?
I guess what got me going on this is I HEAR "they" are getting all this tax-paid help and "I" can't get...... I wonder how many of these are true, how many are misunderstandings of what is being given away and by whom and to whom. I know I cannot tell by looking at, or even in most cases by talking to, someone whether they are here legally, illegally or if they are citizens. Is it often the case that those who speak about people receiving these benefits are not sure either? I do not mean the case Kathy is talking about.
Concerning aid to refugees
I think it is clear the recipients from Somalia she knows are here legally, and are able to get some kind of assistance through money that was appropriated under a specific government program, which she has now described as a form of aid to refugees from war-torn areas. Assumedly, Congress appropriated the funds for this after some period of debate, and it must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Is it being abused beyond its designed goals? On what scale?
Kathy- is there something about the program itself to which you object? Do you know what the design of the program is for? I doubt that its design is to see how much we can give to people from other countries. Is it to help foreign nationals to get an education that they can take back to their country of origin and help it to become less needful of future humanitarian aid? Is there merit to that type of a program (if that IS what it is in fact about). Are you angry because of the attitude you got from these people or thatthe program itself exists, or both/ other?
Veterans
It seems apparent that there are problems, and HAVE been problems within The VA. I believe it unlikely that veterans who were injured from friendly-fire are not able to get the same benefits, as those who suffered from enemy combatant fire and have the same level of disability. It just does not make sense to me that it could be so. It DOES seem to me that it is quite possible that changes need to be made in the policies to streamline the ability to get help for which all veterans qualify for. Am I wrong on those injuries? Is there not enough money appropriated? Are there severe administrative issues to be addressed?
Education K-12
I hear many complaints about the numbers of immigrants in our public schools.
What are your thoughts in general about allowing the children of non-citizens to attend?
What if the children were born here, but their parents are without documentation?
Should they be allowed to attend if the parents are gainfully employed and paying taxes?
Not employed?
My view is that these are children! They need an education whether they end up living here or are returned to (as it has been called) "where they came from". (I remember that phrase also utilized when black/white desegregation was discussed in the 60s). I do not care whether they were born here or were brought over in the back of a truck, or came through the airport.
Health
Perhaps the single area I have heard the most concerns raised is in health care and hospital crowding.
Should emergency care be given to undocumented residents?
How about general sickness care?
Are citizens really being denied care because of overcrowding or overuse by immigrants?
How much does this really affect health care costs?
I know I raised many questions, gave no answers, and gave few of my own views. I am still trying to frame the issue. Give me time, LOL, ya know I do not hesitate to share my views.
I still would like to know what the programs are that people the last year or more have expressed such anger about.
~HAP
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Rocky
Non-service-connected veterans... those who do not suffer service-connected injury/disability must complete a means test EVERY year. EVERY year, not just for a couple of years. However, once enrolled, a veteran may continue to be enrolled for the rest of his/her life, but whether or not the veteran must pay co-pays is determined by the means test.
It's not EVER the decision of the president. CONGRESS ONLY can appropriate. Period.
And you are correct that it is not something that can simply be "looked up" to determine quickly which president is responsible for what policies, policy decisions, implementations, etc. It takes a long-term study that generally comes either by way of work experience in a government or government related profession/situation and/or college education or some form of continuing adult education.
Not that my background makes me any kind of an expert, but -- having worked for 8+ years for a state government agency as an accountant (and held certification as a CGFM, or certified government financial manager), and about four years reporting and doing technical research on the Arizona Legislature for a political newspaper -- gave me the opportunity to develop some degree of understanding so that I can look beyond the surface of news and opinions put forth by journalists and pundits. Some concepts are more or less the same for the federal govt. as for states.
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excathedra
i can't read this, it's too long
but i went to college on welfare, scholarships, and programs
this was in 1974
i also worked 3 jobs while going full time
and i got my bachelor's degree in 3 years
initially i did this to go home and help my family
but instead i went wayfer
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ChattyKathy
Hap,
Excellent post! Full of information, questions and understanding of some of the very things I am concerned about.
I need time to digest it okay.
Rocky,
I haven't read you at all yet but will.
Excath,
There is nothing wrong with what you did dear. It's people receiving more than the ones from this country and what they are doing with it and their attitudes towards us because of it.
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Rocky
YOU are correct sir. Service-connected disability is service-connected disability. Period. There is NO (lawful) distinction.
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ChattyKathy
Rocky,
I read yours while I ponder Hap's.
It was only required for hubby to do a means test in 03 and 04. He has not had to do one since and yes he does a co-pay and certain amount for his drugs. That is the experience I have therefore that was why I was specific in saying 2 years.
And yes again, your exactness of the specific category a veteran is does(oops) doesn't make a difference.
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rhino
All politicians are evil I think. Rocky will tell you how evil Republicans are, I'll tell you how evil Democrats are. But Kathy, you prolly have it figured out best ... not worth getting too bent about.
The WW2 generation is fading away ... my step Dad says they keep saying they are going to do something more for those vets .. he says they better hurry. All 4 brothers on my Dad's side were WW2 vets, and 2 on Mom's side. Only one remains.
I seem to recall a program that encouraged foreigners to come start new business in the US. It was a cash cow for many, as I recall. It seems at the time I remember a lot of small business window cleaning accounts with immigrants that would pay me from large rolls of cash. I vaguely recall something about money basically being thrown at them to start these little shops. Plus they probably kept two sets of books and avoided a lot of taxes.
The other benefit to illegals is they can ace out other low skilled labor just because they are willing to work for less. They still get entry into the country, some subsidized health care and good education for the kids. The employer benefits by having more power over them and saving money.
There is also another market on borrowing by illegals. A couple years ago I was at WalMart in Columbia, Missouri. The lady in front of me had a huge cart full of pretty nice stuff, premium stuff. She offers a couple cards that don't work. Then I see her hubby I guess, come over from the next line where he just paid for a cart full of nice stuff. She doesn't speak English so he helps go through a dozen of her cards and pulls out one that isn't maxed. OK, no problem ... off they go.
As a law abiding Ameican, I don't have that privilege. There are lots of hidden "taxes" like that.
A worker at the hospital in that town complained that they have to provide an interpretter for any language. So someone gets a cold, they want some tylenol cold and flu. So of course they go to the free emergency room. The hospital is required to provide an interpretter, 2 hour minimum, charge of $180 or so. Plus all the regular doc and admin' charges. Total for the two Tylenol cold and flu tablets ... $400.
I'd like to know of the official ways we subsidize illegals, but there are other ways. This was getting cold, so I thought I'd chip in some fire. :)
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ChattyKathy
I need to get my feet warm so am going to print this thread and go read it while I get warm somewhere.
I may be away for a bit before I reply but I wanted to mention that I think this is one of the best threads we've ever had and I am excited about the discovery and learning from it.
And I agree let's please keep it in Open so others can read it as well. I don't think everyone goes to decaf and some can't go to 'tacks.
And I feel more at ease just with the understanding from all the folks posting here, even Rocky who is probably the most aggressive towards me is doing it with grace.
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Rocky
Means test is WAIVED if the veteran agrees to pay copays for both visits and meds... that doesn't mean they won't ask your husband about it again.
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ChattyKathy
See what I mean, this is going to be a wonderful thread.
Thanks Rocky for the better understanding for me.
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excathedra
i didn't think i did anything wrong
i was quite proud of myself
except for the fruccking wayfer thing
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ChattyKathy
I'm just fixing to print this thread so thought I'd reply before I was away for a bit.
I wanted you to know there was nothing wrong with what you did as an example of you are an American using the aids set in place for that purpose.
Not you could have been in error doing it.
This thread is about people entering our country using our aids and what they intend to do with the learning, health improvements, etc. And the attitudes being shoved in our faces while they are doing it. While some of our children go hungry and can't get the same medical care or education or breaks on debts being incurred.
And what is rumor or truth and what can be done about it.
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Rocky
Rightfully so! Completing a bachelor's degree in three years is no small feat. From the time I started (Aug 72) it was 14 years before I finished mine in May 86... of course, I threw in some of that wayfer stuff in the middle...
And Rhino's partly right... I CAN recognize some good in (some) repubs, and won't deny corruption in Dems (who get caught) ...
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Rocky
NONE of our children NEED go hungry. Besides Food Stamps for struggling families, most population centers have food banks. Congress HAS funded a program that funds State Childrens' Health Insurance Programs... Last I looked, the feds paid 80 percent to the states needing to chip in 20 percent. This is available nationwide (from the perspective of Congress/federal govt)... whether it's available in your state is dependent on whether your state legislature appropriates the matching 20 percent. I know that Arizona's legislative leadership (repugs) don't like it, even though it's a tremendous deal. Most federally funded programs require the states to match dollar for dollar.
That's an example of WHY I take a dim view of many repugnican lawmakers.
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HAPe4me
Dunno if it is fire,I have seen far more combustible stuff from you Rhino! Even on this topic. I know before long we will be up to your speed. Please DO try and keep it appropriate for Open, (as you have done here) teehee
Rhino- you mention "I seem to recall", etc. What was the program, did it exist, does it exist? Was it your perception that it existed but may have been something else entirely? Gee, this is like pulling teeth to get specifics! LOL
You mention the benefit to the employer of saving money and having power. Would you still buy from this business? Are you sure he pays them less? Would you turn them in for illegally hiring? It is against the law isn't it? (It is here in Colorado I know) How far would you go to do something about it?
I recall a conversation with someone in chat a while ago. This person was complaing about all the immigrated labor on a construction site for a housing developement he wanted to buy a house in. "Those laborers are driving the wage down" it was said. After listening for awhile, I asked him if he still bought the house. Yes he did. He replied something like "what, you expect people to stop buying the best deal on a house they can get?"
I do not understand this "market on borrowing". What are you saying about the credit cards? They had too many? They owed too much? That they were stolen cards? That there is no intent to pay them off? How do you know whatever your answers are?
How do you know these were "illegals"? What were they doing that you as a law abiding American cannot do? Be way too much in debt? Is that something that only a non-law abiding person can do? How does this affect you? I need more information.
Columbia has a free emergency room? What law requires them to provide an interpreter for "any language"? How do you know who paid the bill? Are there laws that require a hospital to treat anyone no matter what the degree of their illness in an emergency room?
~HAP
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Rocky
It IS my understanding that that IS the case... and regardless of ability to pay the bill, and regardless of immigration status. THAT is one of the biggest concerns in AZ about the undocumented immigrant. Of course, the indigent (who cannot pay for their care) are by no means limited to "illegals." There are a LOT of working poor in AZ who fall into that category (unable to pay). IF there is NO legal requirement, there MAY be a requirement that in order to qualify for medicare/medicaid funding, indigent cannot be turned away without care.
---------
Also, on the S-CHIP's I mentioned in my previous post, but forgot to mention -- to qualify for this program, I understand documentation of legal status for citizenship and/or legal resident alien IS required.
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