why would I want paw to ban you? I wasn't even aware you had an opinion, as your statement about celibacy seemed to imply you'd rather give up sex than be forced to exercise restraint if your partner asked you to stop. I have nothing to get over, you're entitled to your opinion and so am I.
Potato, I could be mistaken, but having conversed with Mark on many occassions and on many topics, I strongly suspect what Mark meant by that statement was simpy that it would be better to remain celibate than try to wade through all of the legal and moral issues involved in sex outside the marital relationship.
why would I want paw to ban you? I wasn't even aware you had an opinion, as your statement about celibacy seemed to imply you'd rather give up sex than be forced to exercise restraint if your partner asked you to stop. I have nothing to get over, you're entitled to your opinion and so am I.
I can't see how anybody could even reasonably get that from my statement.
Your response:
I wasn't going to either, but now I will:
mark, any man who doesn't think he can consider a woman's need for him to stop during the act should do the responsible thing and take an oath of celibacy.
Was extremely condescending. Particularly considering we haven't previously exchanged comments, I think it shows that somebody's stereotypes are peeking out. (Particularly when one considers your other comments on this thread)
I can't see how anybody could even reasonably get that from my statement.
Your response:
I wasn't going to either, but now I will:
mark, any man who doesn't think he can consider a woman's need for him to stop during the act should do the responsible thing and take an oath of celibacy.
Was extremely condescending.
now that you've given your remark some context, yes, I agree with you, I was condescending. most of the thread for me has been a completely different context, that of whether or not a man can "take" his wife against her will and under what circumstances people feel it's acceptable to do so, and whether or not a girl is at fault for giving a rapist opportunity. people are in arms about women who wrongly accuse men of rape and I agree. things will swing too far, I'm afraid, in trying to find a balance between protecting a woman's right to control access to her body and recognizing that the same type of people will use these protections as used the lack of them for their own ends.
Particularly considering we haven't previously exchanged comments, I think it shows that somebody's stereotypes are peeking out. (Particularly when one considers your other comments on this thread)
I don't remember stereotyping anyone... unless calling a man a rapist who says "enough is enough" and finally has to "take" his wife because she withholds sex from him. if that's what you're referring to, then I'm classifying, not stereotyping.
When I thought spousal sex included punches I was all for going to jail -- I am now speaking of spousal sex and spousal rape
I am now going to flip flop as I gain more understanding…
If a spouse consents to the act of sex and we are in the middle of it, and I am at the climatic point where the walls are fuzzy, the phone ringing is barely heard and the feeling from a certain area is where my focus is and the man says stop it may take a second or two to get it together to stop as triggers have all been tripped.
If I am six seconds to stopping and my spouse then cried rape, I gotta tell you, I think that is completely unfair and out of line.
So, if a man, who (forgive me but these are buzz lines, not excuses but perhaps buzz lines because they have a genetic reason) thinks with his “Richard” is happily having sex with his wife and she says stop…
How long does he get?
If he takes another five minutes of me saying stop and he is still going at it, well, I would be ....ed. We would have a serious talk but I would not say he raped me as in the context of “you need to go to jail.” Not when we consensually got to the middle, near the end or entered into the “act.” I think that is unfair.
Yes, I have the right to say stop, I should expect it to stop if it doesn’t we have “problems” I do not know if spousal rape can be considered the name of that problem. And ecven if we conclude RAPE is the name of the problem, I am not convinced that JAIL should be one of the puishments
(And I say all of this not only as the hair club president but as a client – a bit of humor to say I have lived this. I did have a panic attack and I was in pain, and it did continue.)
A term I have used is "a selfish narcissistic pig of a spouse, inconsiderate, never thinking of me, selfish scum in bed where all this manifests in a microcosm of time."
But I would not press charges. I might even tell him it felt like rape once I said “stop” but to go as far as pressing charges in this situation? I might get him to see how it was “rape” to me, or like rape to me. But press charges?
I feel that would be wrong. However, I would not be inclined to “try it again” unless things have changed.
So, are we talking it is rape – or it is rape worthy of him going to jail?
I also know a man raped by a woman. He was a young man and she was his sister-in-law in her thirties.
They were partying in California at a “big hotel” some celebrities had been there.
Big part thrown by the brother and sis-in-law
Any way, the younger man had a few drinks and went to sleep in his own room.
In the dark of the night, he awoke with someone already moving in the sex act on him. (As a young man, he awoke ever day to a tent)
He was awaking in enjoyment and wondered who it was, he had been flirting with a “celebrity” and thought maybe…..
As a crack of light came in and focused on HER it was his sis-in-law.
He yelled, “STOP” and pushed her as she tried to continue and he knocked her off.
Now in this case I think rape and jail can be synonymous.
The spousal thing, well many, many workings of the marriage, of “that time ”, and intimate things would have to be considered before I could or perhaps a jury would find this “continued” sex (free of punches, or weapons) would be rape worthy of jail time, IMO
The murkiness surrounding what's reasonable has deepened further with the Maryland case, which was tried in 2004. The accuser and the defendant agree that after he began to penetrate her and she wanted him to stop, he did so within a matter of seconds and did not climax. Even so, during deliberations, the jury sent a note to the judge asking if it was rape if a female changed her mind during the sex to which she consented and the man continued until climax. The judge said it was for them to decide. They convicted the defendant of first-degree rape, among other sex offenses
When I was writing, I decided to submit in the genre of Romance novels.
I had to read each publishing house and see what they were publishing.
What irked me was how many books had a woman saying, “no” and the man would “take” her anyway. AND in the books, she would learn to love him and they would live happily ever after.
It made me sick.
In one house, I forget now, the lovers had to meet early on and have sex by a certain page and all this was done in an antagonist/protagonist fashion until they “fell in love”
I believe this type of writing (reading) convinced women and girls that there was “happiness” at the end of an abusive start. I think it was fodder to rape.
It was written prose, to validate the thinking, that a woman should be grateful for a man’s advances no matter how unwanted. She would beat on his chest and deny him “access” then purr like a kitten when she finally learned her place and did submit.
well, that gets me too. he stopped, within seconds.
now, Dot, sounds like we had some very similar situations with spouses. if I had it to do over again, I would press charges and send him to jail. when a muscular, 250 lb man is laughing at my pain and suffocating me with his weight, he doesn't need to punch me or hit me to do whatever he wants. the only reason my screams and punching did anything is that it irritated him and he lost his "mood".
and I agree with you on the romance novels. I grew up reading them. they set very wrong expectations for young women regarding sex and love.
Just so you know should I have clouded the issue between you and I that I am so sorry you were treated the way you were and none of my posts are meant to imply that was right on his part, not at all.
If a spouse consents to the act of sex and we are in the middle of it, and I am at the climatic point where the walls are fuzzy, the phone ringing is barely heard and the feeling from a certain area is where my focus is and the man says stop it may take a second or two to get it together to stop as triggers have all been tripped.
has that ever happened in real life ??????
sowwy just being a lighthearted ....
--
potato, i want to punch the sheet out of your husband
In the text I had used it when I went back and read the sent PM it just blew the whole PM because it was a serious one but having foot there instead rather changed the whole thing.
I will say as a male, I am disheartened by what I have read.
I understand clearly what you are saying.
Nobody should never ever have to endure the experiences as I have read.
I read most of these posts are from females and the hurt you type.
Rape is sexual abuse. Abuse is one, more powerful over the other period.
Why girls stay in this relationship is beyond me. It is your words on this thread that bugs me. My heart goes out to you.
I have never raped any girl. It was always consentual.
When the partner made a move I did too but when she backed away so did, I believe in the individuals values.
Even when I wake up in the night from a dream or just wake up and feel my male urges and make my hand touches to arouse my lovely wife and determine she is asleep and not like totally in the mood.
I respect that and step off.
When she does the same when I am asleep she respects that too.
To go forward on her part or mine is wrong. It is force . To over power the other is all wrong in my books!
My wife is a counselor, specifically a phyco therapist, with the gestalt certificate training and teaches it at a Christian College and right now in San Francisco for a class on personality traits. We together payed for this class to go there from Aussie land so she can better help her clients.
There are female clients of hers that take knives and slice there wrists and arms because of sexual abuse, how disturbing is that. I never knew this stuff happened but it does. How very very sad, that someone was abused.
Let me say about girls. They bare us, they feed us and train us they change our nappies and are extremly diligent of there responsibilitys as mom.
When they marry they feed us, they enrich our lives they look out our back doors when us males aint looking.
I did not mean to get off track on this thread but rape is all wrong.
Kick them in their family jewels girls and run like Hell if you don't want it, it is the old fashioned way Trust me.
That foot one will continue to be a funny I think.
fellowshipper,
If all men and women were as respectful as you and your wife it would be wonderful. That was sweet to read, thank you.
I do know that alcohol and drugs alter normal people into mean people and if that were taken out of the equation that would be nice also, if it causes such hurt and pain.
And if my messages have been mixed (especially to potato) then I want to state them more clear. No man or woman has a right to abuse another and potato was abused plain and simple, in fact I stated this already almost in those words but they could have been lost in the mix. And my continued posts to her were not intended to hurt her nor imply she had no voice here. It was about different circumstances entirely and I hope all realize that now.
Thank you for your post. I bet your wife sees it all...
Sex is powerful. It is bonding.
And forced sex is powerful and bonding -- it bonds us to an abusive situation or abusive person. It can ruin all future potentially "good sexual" relations. Rape is huge. It changes you.
And if you are raped as a kid, I forget the odds maybe I can find them, that the person will become an alcoholic, under achiever etc...
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excathedra
i get your point, mark
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Abigail
Potato, I could be mistaken, but having conversed with Mark on many occassions and on many topics, I strongly suspect what Mark meant by that statement was simpy that it would be better to remain celibate than try to wade through all of the legal and moral issues involved in sex outside the marital relationship.
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markomalley
I can't see how anybody could even reasonably get that from my statement.
Your response:
I wasn't going to either, but now I will:
mark, any man who doesn't think he can consider a woman's need for him to stop during the act should do the responsible thing and take an oath of celibacy.
Was extremely condescending. Particularly considering we haven't previously exchanged comments, I think it shows that somebody's stereotypes are peeking out. (Particularly when one considers your other comments on this thread)
But whatever.
btw, thanks Abi!
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potato
now that you've given your remark some context, yes, I agree with you, I was condescending. most of the thread for me has been a completely different context, that of whether or not a man can "take" his wife against her will and under what circumstances people feel it's acceptable to do so, and whether or not a girl is at fault for giving a rapist opportunity. people are in arms about women who wrongly accuse men of rape and I agree. things will swing too far, I'm afraid, in trying to find a balance between protecting a woman's right to control access to her body and recognizing that the same type of people will use these protections as used the lack of them for their own ends.
I don't remember stereotyping anyone... unless calling a man a rapist who says "enough is enough" and finally has to "take" his wife because she withholds sex from him. if that's what you're referring to, then I'm classifying, not stereotyping.
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markomalley
Thank you.
In that context, I didn't comment. I only commented after reading the article Shellon linked...
...because of the potential for abuse the laws advocated by that article leave open.
Points all made. Back to lurking mode on the thread.
Peace.
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ChattyKathy
Cool when folks work things out like has been done here.
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Dot Matrix
Well now I am not sure I understand --
Okay_
When I thought spousal sex included punches I was all for going to jail -- I am now speaking of spousal sex and spousal rape
I am now going to flip flop as I gain more understanding…
If a spouse consents to the act of sex and we are in the middle of it, and I am at the climatic point where the walls are fuzzy, the phone ringing is barely heard and the feeling from a certain area is where my focus is and the man says stop it may take a second or two to get it together to stop as triggers have all been tripped.
If I am six seconds to stopping and my spouse then cried rape, I gotta tell you, I think that is completely unfair and out of line.
So, if a man, who (forgive me but these are buzz lines, not excuses but perhaps buzz lines because they have a genetic reason) thinks with his “Richard” is happily having sex with his wife and she says stop…
How long does he get?
If he takes another five minutes of me saying stop and he is still going at it, well, I would be ....ed. We would have a serious talk but I would not say he raped me as in the context of “you need to go to jail.” Not when we consensually got to the middle, near the end or entered into the “act.” I think that is unfair.
Yes, I have the right to say stop, I should expect it to stop if it doesn’t we have “problems” I do not know if spousal rape can be considered the name of that problem. And ecven if we conclude RAPE is the name of the problem, I am not convinced that JAIL should be one of the puishments
(And I say all of this not only as the hair club president but as a client – a bit of humor to say I have lived this. I did have a panic attack and I was in pain, and it did continue.)
A term I have used is "a selfish narcissistic pig of a spouse, inconsiderate, never thinking of me, selfish scum in bed where all this manifests in a microcosm of time."
But I would not press charges. I might even tell him it felt like rape once I said “stop” but to go as far as pressing charges in this situation? I might get him to see how it was “rape” to me, or like rape to me. But press charges?
I feel that would be wrong. However, I would not be inclined to “try it again” unless things have changed.
So, are we talking it is rape – or it is rape worthy of him going to jail?
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Dot Matrix
BTW
I also know a man raped by a woman. He was a young man and she was his sister-in-law in her thirties.
They were partying in California at a “big hotel” some celebrities had been there.
Big part thrown by the brother and sis-in-law
Any way, the younger man had a few drinks and went to sleep in his own room.
In the dark of the night, he awoke with someone already moving in the sex act on him. (As a young man, he awoke ever day to a tent)
He was awaking in enjoyment and wondered who it was, he had been flirting with a “celebrity” and thought maybe…..
As a crack of light came in and focused on HER it was his sis-in-law.
He yelled, “STOP” and pushed her as she tried to continue and he knocked her off.
Now in this case I think rape and jail can be synonymous.
The spousal thing, well many, many workings of the marriage, of “that time ”, and intimate things would have to be considered before I could or perhaps a jury would find this “continued” sex (free of punches, or weapons) would be rape worthy of jail time, IMO
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Dot Matrix
This is waht gets me from the article posted:
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Dot Matrix
Side note:
When I was writing, I decided to submit in the genre of Romance novels.
I had to read each publishing house and see what they were publishing.
What irked me was how many books had a woman saying, “no” and the man would “take” her anyway. AND in the books, she would learn to love him and they would live happily ever after.
It made me sick.
In one house, I forget now, the lovers had to meet early on and have sex by a certain page and all this was done in an antagonist/protagonist fashion until they “fell in love”
I believe this type of writing (reading) convinced women and girls that there was “happiness” at the end of an abusive start. I think it was fodder to rape.
It was written prose, to validate the thinking, that a woman should be grateful for a man’s advances no matter how unwanted. She would beat on his chest and deny him “access” then purr like a kitten when she finally learned her place and did submit.
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ChattyKathy
It concerns me to think the law can be in bed with a couple like that and determine such things. My goodness!
If we can't figure out how to have sexual relations any better than that then there are deeper problems going on.
The more we allow another person to make law about our private lives the more we enter bondage.
You have some very good points there.
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potato
well, that gets me too. he stopped, within seconds.
now, Dot, sounds like we had some very similar situations with spouses. if I had it to do over again, I would press charges and send him to jail. when a muscular, 250 lb man is laughing at my pain and suffocating me with his weight, he doesn't need to punch me or hit me to do whatever he wants. the only reason my screams and punching did anything is that it irritated him and he lost his "mood".
and I agree with you on the romance novels. I grew up reading them. they set very wrong expectations for young women regarding sex and love.
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ChattyKathy
Potato,
Just so you know should I have clouded the issue between you and I that I am so sorry you were treated the way you were and none of my posts are meant to imply that was right on his part, not at all.
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templelady
Potato
I don't think I was clear enough in my previous posts about spousal rape
If you are pounding with your fists and yelling stop and he continues then yes, it is rape
It is the element of force that is at issue
If you say stop and he continues and you give him a push and he gets the message, albeit a bit late, and stops--that is not rape
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excathedra
has that ever happened in real life ??????
sowwy just being a lighthearted ....
--
potato, i want to punch the sheet out of your husband
i said a lighthearted
a
s
s
but they caught me
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ChattyKathy
When I said @$$ once in a PM it showed up as foot and I nearly peed my pants.
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potato
I love the foot @$$ exchange, that one made me laugh too.
thanks for your kindness. it was a nightmare that was confusing to wake up from. that's why I'm a bit of a bulldog about some things.
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ChattyKathy
In the text I had used it when I went back and read the sent PM it just blew the whole PM because it was a serious one but having foot there instead rather changed the whole thing.
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Dot Matrix
Someone pm'd me and called someone a foot and I never got why -- so she wrote the "A" word for hiney and it changed it to foot?
That is hysterical
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fellowshipper
I have been reading this thread since it began.
I will say as a male, I am disheartened by what I have read.
I understand clearly what you are saying.
Nobody should never ever have to endure the experiences as I have read.
I read most of these posts are from females and the hurt you type.
Rape is sexual abuse. Abuse is one, more powerful over the other period.
Why girls stay in this relationship is beyond me. It is your words on this thread that bugs me. My heart goes out to you.
I have never raped any girl. It was always consentual.
When the partner made a move I did too but when she backed away so did, I believe in the individuals values.
Even when I wake up in the night from a dream or just wake up and feel my male urges and make my hand touches to arouse my lovely wife and determine she is asleep and not like totally in the mood.
I respect that and step off.
When she does the same when I am asleep she respects that too.
To go forward on her part or mine is wrong. It is force . To over power the other is all wrong in my books!
My wife is a counselor, specifically a phyco therapist, with the gestalt certificate training and teaches it at a Christian College and right now in San Francisco for a class on personality traits. We together payed for this class to go there from Aussie land so she can better help her clients.
There are female clients of hers that take knives and slice there wrists and arms because of sexual abuse, how disturbing is that. I never knew this stuff happened but it does. How very very sad, that someone was abused.
Let me say about girls. They bare us, they feed us and train us they change our nappies and are extremly diligent of there responsibilitys as mom.
When they marry they feed us, they enrich our lives they look out our back doors when us males aint looking.
I did not mean to get off track on this thread but rape is all wrong.
Kick them in their family jewels girls and run like Hell if you don't want it, it is the old fashioned way Trust me.
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ChattyKathy
That foot one will continue to be a funny I think.
fellowshipper,
If all men and women were as respectful as you and your wife it would be wonderful. That was sweet to read, thank you.
I do know that alcohol and drugs alter normal people into mean people and if that were taken out of the equation that would be nice also, if it causes such hurt and pain.
And if my messages have been mixed (especially to potato) then I want to state them more clear. No man or woman has a right to abuse another and potato was abused plain and simple, in fact I stated this already almost in those words but they could have been lost in the mix. And my continued posts to her were not intended to hurt her nor imply she had no voice here. It was about different circumstances entirely and I hope all realize that now.
Peace be with you.
Kathy
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excathedra
and with your spirit
i couldn't resist
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ChattyKathy
I love the saying. I love peace-love-dove also. :)
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Dot Matrix
Fellowshipper
Thank you for your post. I bet your wife sees it all...
Sex is powerful. It is bonding.
And forced sex is powerful and bonding -- it bonds us to an abusive situation or abusive person. It can ruin all future potentially "good sexual" relations. Rape is huge. It changes you.
And if you are raped as a kid, I forget the odds maybe I can find them, that the person will become an alcoholic, under achiever etc...
Rape ruins lives
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