Not so many years ago of a woman was raped she went through hell--everything from the kind of clothes she wore, did she drink, was she a virgin when she got married, making her look like a slut was the usual ploy.
So laws were enacted which helped put the blame on the rapist not the victim
But as almost anything that is a reaction too rather than a thought out action --- the baby went out with the bath water
Dr Phil has a saying about If you do the action you own the consequence
If you get naked with another naked person
indulge in heavy foreplay
and actually start the "deed" all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
it would be nice if the other person respected that change of mind
but whether they do or not--YOU HAVE NOT BEEN RAPED
If you get naked with another naked person
indulge in heavy foreplay
all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
If force was used
ie hitting, choking, pinning down, pulling you down when you got up
THEN ITS RAPE
If you get naked with another naked person
indulge in heavy foreplay
all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
but do nothing to remove yourself from the situation
and actually start the "deed" all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
it would be nice if the other person respected that change of mind
but whether they do or not--YOU HAVE NOT BEEN RAPED
...
OF course this is all my opinion
I disagree with you.
if the act has commence with me as a willing partner, and for whatever reason I want the other to stop... panic attack, pain, whatever... my body is mine and they'd better get out and get off. if they don't, they are raping me. sorry, but I've been in a situation of pain and had to fight someone off with my fists and screaming my head off to get them to stop, and I was willing to begin with. I can understand it taking a few seconds or more for a man to realize something is going on, but if a man continues to pleasure himself with an unwilling partner, what do you call it if not rape?
my opinion is if they stop out of consideration, it's not rape. if the act was consented to and even if injuries happen, if both parties cease on the request of either, maybe reckless endangerment, but not rape... but if they choose to disregard either a request or an imperative to cease and desist, it's rape.
if the act has commence with me as a willing partner, and for whatever reason I want the other to stop... panic attack, pain, whatever... my body is mine and they'd better get out and get off. if they don't, they are raping me. sorry, but I've been in a situation of pain and had to fight someone off with my fists and screaming my head off to get them to stop, and I was willing to begin with. I can understand it taking a few seconds or more for a man to realize something is going on, but if a man continues to pleasure himself with an unwilling partner, what do you call it if not rape?
my opinion is if they stop out of consideration, it's not rape. if the act was consented to and even if injuries happen, if both parties cease on the request of either, maybe reckless endangerment, but not rape... but if they choose to disregard either a request or an imperative to cease and desist, it's rape.
well thank you potato, your post has really made me think, and understand, and agree totally with what you said
well thank you potato, your post has really made me think, and understand, and agree totally with what you said
and dear potato, i apologize
thank you excie. I respect you infinitely, and these discussions are all about thinking, imo. I have to consider and adjust my opinions all the time.
mark, i won't even comment on that remark ugh
I wasn't going to either, but now I will:
mark, any man who doesn't think he can consider a woman's need for him to stop during the act should do the responsible thing and take an oath of celibacy.
Which is precisely why there should not be a hard and fast (ahhhh, yeah) law - a jury needs to be presented with a case and make a decision. Because both sides have valid points. Yes, you do need to take responsibility for your actions and in general you should not cry rape halfway through an act you consented to.
However, if you are in pain that is a different circumstance. If the man said he would wear a condom and lied, that is a different circumstance. BUT if you are with someone you know, love, trust, and have built a good relationship with, then odds are good he would stop if you said stop. If you are with someone you don't know and therefore cannot trust, you have put yourself in a very foolish and unwise place. If you are with someone who is abusive and for whatever reason have not been able to get out of that relationship, that again is a different situation.
mark, any man who doesn't think he can consider a woman's need for him to stop during the act should do the responsible thing and take an oath of celibacy.
Actually, it's got nothing to do with that.
I look at the forensics of the situation. The prima facie proof that a rape happened is provided by physical evidence, right? (Look at the Duke case as a current example)
- Damage and bruising around the genital area
- DNA collected from the victim pointing to the fact that the accuser was in proximity
- DNA collected from the victim pointing to the fact that sexual relations did, in fact, occur
Those data points are what prosecuters use to determine whether a rape accusation can be easily supported or whether it's a matter of he said/she said. Not to say that all he said/she said cases are unprovable, but they're very, very difficult to prove in of themselves.
If you have a situation where, during the midst of coitus, the female withdraws her consent, all of the above physical data points will be present.
If the man doesn't stop when the woman withdraws her consent, she has physical evidence to back her up. Just requires a hospital to do a rape kit.
If the woman decides that the man didn't stop fast enough and accuses him of rape, she has physical evidence to back her up. Just requires a hospital to do a rape kit.
If the woman has regrets afterwards and later decides that she didn't "really" give consent, she has the physical evidence to back her up. Just requires a hospital to do a rape kit.
Any of the above happens, the man's f*cked.
It's just a hypothetical to me, as I am happily married, thank you. But if I was still single and prowling, I would have to make some serious decisions on whether it's worth it or not. And no, I'm not just talking about a one night stand. I'm talking about being in a relationship for a while. Before finding Mrs. Right, I ran into a few really flaky women...the degree of flakiness I didn't discover in some cases until many weeks into a relationship. And, frankly, I wouldn't put doing something like this beyond some women I've met in my varied past. Not all, not most, not even a decent minority, but a couple...
So bottom line is that my previous remark was not based on a personal lack of control, but on the 11th Commandment ("Thou shalt, in all circumstances, cover thy arse")
BTW, I would wager excathedra's comment was not spoken as a feminist. She knows that I am Catholic. She hates the Catholic Church with almost as much passion (and maybe even more) than she hates TWI. It's not my place to say why (it's for her to share)...but I can perfectly understand why she does. The comment about celibacy was (I interpret) a slam against the Catholic Church. (Something like supposedly celibate priests buggering pubescent boys). The topic really hasn't come up since you signed onto the site, so I could understand why you'd not 'get it.'
Don't like my opinion? Alert on my post and ask Paw to ban me. Otherwise get over it.
Mark, at risk of whatever may come my way I would like to reply.
You hit on some of the very concerns I have regarding rape. It can be a convenient way for a woman to get back at the man for one thing. Or for her to cover her butt because she made a mistake and doesn't want to own up to it.
And rarely is the man allowed such scapegoats in this category.
As well it is women that use this plea when they are in part responsible due to enticing the man, or going into his hotel room, or a variety of ways, geez I'm a woman so I know we have ways of entrapment, that make it more difficult on those of us who were raped with no invitation to be whatsoever.
And I know even I can put off vibes and for that I have held me way more responsible than I ever should so I understand the whole circle of this topic.
Women that use this because they made a mistake in the first place make it harder and harder on everyone. And you can claim you have the right to say yes and no until the cows come home but if you put yourself in harms way then good lord why is it so hard to acknowledge you had some responsibility in it also. I feel that is abusing the woman has a right over her body issue. And again it only harms those who really had their rights over their bodies taken away.
And yes I know there are circumstances where the lines can be very difficult to reach a true conclusion and there will always be those cases. But a woman just flat out using this is wrong. Plain and simple!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
51
24
20
Popular Days
Feb 4
56
Feb 3
47
Feb 7
17
Feb 8
14
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 18 posts
ChattyKathy 51 posts
Dot Matrix 24 posts
potato 20 posts
Popular Days
Feb 4 2007
56 posts
Feb 3 2007
47 posts
Feb 7 2007
17 posts
Feb 8 2007
14 posts
ChattyKathy
How many of us looked at Ohio first I wonder.
My hope is that marital rape is reviewed in each instance with a critical eye (that is not saying accusing) for the protection of all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
In today's news
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...00.html?cnn=yes
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I don't even know how to reply to that article right now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i'm confused
he could be in there
and THEN she decides no ?
and he can go to jail ?
how'd he get in there in the first place ?
i'm just really baffled
a friend of mine said STOP might be more accurate than NO because obviously if you got THAT far, it was YES
i still don't know about the analysis and punishment of this type of situation
forgive me if i'm not explaining this properly
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I couldn't even do as well as you did excath because it just made my head spin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Not so many years ago of a woman was raped she went through hell--everything from the kind of clothes she wore, did she drink, was she a virgin when she got married, making her look like a slut was the usual ploy.
So laws were enacted which helped put the blame on the rapist not the victim
But as almost anything that is a reaction too rather than a thought out action --- the baby went out with the bath water
Dr Phil has a saying about If you do the action you own the consequence
If you get naked with another naked person
indulge in heavy foreplay
and actually start the "deed" all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
it would be nice if the other person respected that change of mind
but whether they do or not--YOU HAVE NOT BEEN RAPED
If you get naked with another naked person
indulge in heavy foreplay
all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
If force was used
ie hitting, choking, pinning down, pulling you down when you got up
THEN ITS RAPE
If you get naked with another naked person
indulge in heavy foreplay
all on a willing and consensual level
and then change your mind
but do nothing to remove yourself from the situation
ie continue to lie there
THEN ITS NOT RAPE
OF course this is all my opinion
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
WELL i like you a lot better than dr phil ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I second excath.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
I disagree with you.
if the act has commence with me as a willing partner, and for whatever reason I want the other to stop... panic attack, pain, whatever... my body is mine and they'd better get out and get off. if they don't, they are raping me. sorry, but I've been in a situation of pain and had to fight someone off with my fists and screaming my head off to get them to stop, and I was willing to begin with. I can understand it taking a few seconds or more for a man to realize something is going on, but if a man continues to pleasure himself with an unwilling partner, what do you call it if not rape?
my opinion is if they stop out of consideration, it's not rape. if the act was consented to and even if injuries happen, if both parties cease on the request of either, maybe reckless endangerment, but not rape... but if they choose to disregard either a request or an imperative to cease and desist, it's rape.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
After reading this thread...
...if I was still single, I think I'd have to take an oath of celibacy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
well thank you potato, your post has really made me think, and understand, and agree totally with what you said
and dear potato, i apologize
--
mark, i won't even comment on that remark ugh
Edited by excathedraLink to comment
Share on other sites
potato
thank you excie. I respect you infinitely, and these discussions are all about thinking, imo. I have to consider and adjust my opinions all the time.
I wasn't going to either, but now I will:
mark, any man who doesn't think he can consider a woman's need for him to stop during the act should do the responsible thing and take an oath of celibacy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Which is precisely why there should not be a hard and fast (ahhhh, yeah) law - a jury needs to be presented with a case and make a decision. Because both sides have valid points. Yes, you do need to take responsibility for your actions and in general you should not cry rape halfway through an act you consented to.
However, if you are in pain that is a different circumstance. If the man said he would wear a condom and lied, that is a different circumstance. BUT if you are with someone you know, love, trust, and have built a good relationship with, then odds are good he would stop if you said stop. If you are with someone you don't know and therefore cannot trust, you have put yourself in a very foolish and unwise place. If you are with someone who is abusive and for whatever reason have not been able to get out of that relationship, that again is a different situation.
We cannot make a one law fits every circumstance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Abi, good input, thank you for that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Actually, it's got nothing to do with that.
I look at the forensics of the situation. The prima facie proof that a rape happened is provided by physical evidence, right? (Look at the Duke case as a current example)
- Damage and bruising around the genital area
- DNA collected from the victim pointing to the fact that the accuser was in proximity
- DNA collected from the victim pointing to the fact that sexual relations did, in fact, occur
Those data points are what prosecuters use to determine whether a rape accusation can be easily supported or whether it's a matter of he said/she said. Not to say that all he said/she said cases are unprovable, but they're very, very difficult to prove in of themselves.
If you have a situation where, during the midst of coitus, the female withdraws her consent, all of the above physical data points will be present.
If the man doesn't stop when the woman withdraws her consent, she has physical evidence to back her up. Just requires a hospital to do a rape kit.
If the woman decides that the man didn't stop fast enough and accuses him of rape, she has physical evidence to back her up. Just requires a hospital to do a rape kit.
If the woman has regrets afterwards and later decides that she didn't "really" give consent, she has the physical evidence to back her up. Just requires a hospital to do a rape kit.
Any of the above happens, the man's f*cked.
It's just a hypothetical to me, as I am happily married, thank you. But if I was still single and prowling, I would have to make some serious decisions on whether it's worth it or not. And no, I'm not just talking about a one night stand. I'm talking about being in a relationship for a while. Before finding Mrs. Right, I ran into a few really flaky women...the degree of flakiness I didn't discover in some cases until many weeks into a relationship. And, frankly, I wouldn't put doing something like this beyond some women I've met in my varied past. Not all, not most, not even a decent minority, but a couple...
So bottom line is that my previous remark was not based on a personal lack of control, but on the 11th Commandment ("Thou shalt, in all circumstances, cover thy arse")
BTW, I would wager excathedra's comment was not spoken as a feminist. She knows that I am Catholic. She hates the Catholic Church with almost as much passion (and maybe even more) than she hates TWI. It's not my place to say why (it's for her to share)...but I can perfectly understand why she does. The comment about celibacy was (I interpret) a slam against the Catholic Church. (Something like supposedly celibate priests buggering pubescent boys). The topic really hasn't come up since you signed onto the site, so I could understand why you'd not 'get it.'
Don't like my opinion? Alert on my post and ask Paw to ban me. Otherwise get over it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Mark, at risk of whatever may come my way I would like to reply.
You hit on some of the very concerns I have regarding rape. It can be a convenient way for a woman to get back at the man for one thing. Or for her to cover her butt because she made a mistake and doesn't want to own up to it.
And rarely is the man allowed such scapegoats in this category.
As well it is women that use this plea when they are in part responsible due to enticing the man, or going into his hotel room, or a variety of ways, geez I'm a woman so I know we have ways of entrapment, that make it more difficult on those of us who were raped with no invitation to be whatsoever.
And I know even I can put off vibes and for that I have held me way more responsible than I ever should so I understand the whole circle of this topic.
Women that use this because they made a mistake in the first place make it harder and harder on everyone. And you can claim you have the right to say yes and no until the cows come home but if you put yourself in harms way then good lord why is it so hard to acknowledge you had some responsibility in it also. I feel that is abusing the woman has a right over her body issue. And again it only harms those who really had their rights over their bodies taken away.
And yes I know there are circumstances where the lines can be very difficult to reach a true conclusion and there will always be those cases. But a woman just flat out using this is wrong. Plain and simple!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
excellent post Chatty
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I think there must be a magnet that radiates from these walls here because I swear I seem unable to keep away.
And thank you sweetie.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
what exactly does "buggering" mean, mark ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
According to Princeton's Wordnet, "to bugger" means: sodomize: practice anal sex upon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
how nice you used the word "buggering" on this thread about rape
i hope the priests who have "bugged" PRE-pubescent and pubescent boys have the same fate as the bible account -- buggerville and gomorrah....
what does princeton wordnet say for the definition of "prowling" ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
A pleasure...
You and I both...Princeton Wordnet is not exactly the proper resource for that definition. I would suggest the Urban Dictionary for that slang: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prowl
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
see how things can get confusing
dictionary dot com said "prowling" was
"to roam through stealthily, as in search of prey or plunder"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Think back to the day in the disco or the singles' bar. Isn't that what guys sort of did?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.