I vote for using God's terminology, not man's, in this thread. My reason is that man's terminology varies so much with each person's understanding. At least when we use God's words we all go to the same source for them and have the same Spirit in us to open our understanding. Plus, man's words seem to have no solution...you 'recover' forever...whereas God's words which descriibe problems also include the solutions: "you once were, but now are"....!
I'll give one example:
Man has lately made up the word dysfunctional.
There is no definition of dysfunctional in the Word and no solution for it.
Ah, but if we use the word CARNAL, God gave us many definite instructions about its cause and solution!
So..can we define "Healthy" in this thread as "godly" or "how God would have it"? or "biblical"?
The question then - how can we build a Christian organization that is dynamic, organized,
and healthy ?
Honestly, I kind of doubt "building" an organisation is what is necessary. Building any secondary structure from the body of Christ is counter-productive. That's my opinion at least, and I'm sure it won't agree with a majority of Christians.
Now, I'm not saying coming together is counter-productive, it's the structure that I refer to. And it's the structure that goes against God, because inevitably it all starts to have men and women focus on building "the structure", "the organisation", rather than about God.. It all will eventually become a matter of "YOUR" work, and not "God's" work for the sake of your building. I think we make things difficult when we do this and counter - productive. The Body of Christ should be without walls and boundaries, except those God in Christ has raised. When you "add" to God's structure and boundaries, when you try and build an orginsatiion He hasn't put together, you are going to start having walls, borders, lines of demarcation that say you are a part of this organism or not, you can or can't do such and such in "THIS" organism. Sure, we can all sit here and say that such and such is bibilcal, but maybe it is only "YOUR" perception of what God has said and not really what is true.
I have even been a part of an Christian "organisation" where everyone had an equal say in everything. THe only thing was that it too, like so many, became self-serving, rather than self-giving. And in a way, it will always become that way, since it is something you "built"and therefore will always require you to serve it to keep it functioning, thus the self-serving organisation will always be counter-productive and in my opinion goes at cross-purposes with the Body of Christ, the Church, that our Lord whome we serve is building.
Nah, the best I know and have seen, is just living life and being with people. If you know those in the Body nearby, get together, hang out, do stuff, live life together, help one another, server one another in love, and serve God together, reach out to others with God's love, and continue together.. That's the oneness that we are all called to. Not to a man made and built structure / organisation. It is important to come together. It is important to have others that you hang with that also serve the same God, but to try and build yourself a "club" out of it, I dunno, just everything I've seen always ends up being self-serving and that's by design, maybe not intended design, but there's no way to dismiss it. You can have a world-wide network of people that know one another, help one another, and still not be tied to a organisation.. In fact, it's alive in the world today in many forms, starting with your circle of friends.. Have you decided to incorporate or form a organisation out of your friendships? What's the purpose, it will always end up self-serving in the end.
Instead let Christ rule in our hearts, and let us prefer one another and strive to serve one anothe in love. And those we know and care for should be a part of our lives in every way we are willing to open our hearts and lives to them, and the more we are open to one another, the more that oneness takes place.
we are not instructed to build anything. what the heck are you talking about?
It is the BODY OF CHRIST!
The Christ is a SPIRIT , jesus was a man , he didnt build anything, He was murdered by those who wanted Him to, people wanted something they could see , touch, agrue about who was better and time and time again Jesus told them it was wrong thinking about the Father.
You want an idol you want an idol.
You can build an idol people have attempted to do so for a very long time and it has caused nothing but problems for them.
God is not a man or a group he is a SPIRIT, His ways are beyond us. Jesus taught us hwo to worship and communicate with this Spirit who created men, His instruction and commandment was to love GOD and men.
why do you complicate the simple love of God to reach for some work that will NEVER ever be able to SAVE anyone from death or give them eternal life? not that it hasnt been tried and attempted by many before you including those who crucified Gods only begotten Son!
why do you think Jesus Christ isnt good enough to be our KING and you must somehow beef up your efforts as a man to compete with what He claims as a Victory already done ?
He is a KING KING OF KINGS.
stop fighting for the throne , stop thinking you can buy or work your way into the kingdom, to meet Jesus Christ or to help people Jesus DIED and God rasied Him from the dead.
hello your still here and YOU need a king with eternal salvation to get you out of here, so read romans again and confess Jesus as LORD...
stop trying to be a LORD your own self. or to other people. our helper is the LORD.
you can not be like God... no matter what idol you attempt to make , and the only one who is even close is Jesus THE RISEN Christ and He said IT IS FINISHED!
you sound like a cult . a man made idea of who is who and how to . scrapping up the gold pieces to make a calf.
because you need to worship only what you made or can do.
not me. God is real and is to be worship in SPIRIT and truth, Jesus is my friend and asks NOTHING of me to recieve the body ONLY HE was able to raise from the dead by HIS OWN love for us.
stop telling me Jesus isnt good enough and you need to do more, you want the worship only Jesus Christ was granted by God almighty.
I dunno.. the last year or so I have had a recurring thought- the day of organizations is past. At least unless they can justify their existence.
Carrying the doctrine of pfal to the next generation, doesn't qualify to me, personally. Enough doing it, how many offsprings ARE there, and some have proven to be dismal failures..
I wouldn't want to start another cult.
Now a wine tasting club, that might be the thing.. smile and pass the Merlot..
I thought it interesting that someone here found some merit in a local mega-church.
There's so much "available" out there, why re-invent the wheel?
The question then - how can we build a Christian organization that is dynamic, organized,
and healthy ?
Boy, that's something disciples have been trying to figure out since 34 A.D. The Corinthians (the saints at Corinth) were condescending, out of control, puffed up, immature, you name it. Did not sound like a "healthy" congregation to me. But Paul calls them saints. Then he rips them a new one....
My first thought is that as long as you have human beings making up the "organization" you will have some degree of unhealthiness. Because everyone has some degree of brokenness and we all have to hobble along helping each other until we are perfected, which will be on the Last Day.
That being said, until then, two things have to be paramount: 1. Truthfulness and 2. Humility. Look back on every failed church or fallen minister and you see those things being compromised at leadership level.
how can we build a Christian organization that is dynamic, organized,
and healthy ?
Pond beat me to the punch and said more than I couldve or wouldve.
Why do we have to build anything?
First off, Im no bible scholar, and correct me if I am mistaken but the "who' of building the church is a job that is already taken, I doubt anyone here is going to successfully usurp that job title from the rightful owner. I personally wouldnt suggest attempting it
second, there are thousands of flavors of christianity in the body already that would suit any taste,
whats the point of building something that is already built?
Pond beat me to the punch and said more than I couldve or wouldve.
Why do we have to build anything?
First off, Im no bible scholar, and correct me if I am mistaken but the "who' of building the church is a job that is already taken, I doubt anyone here is going to successfully usurp that job title from the rightful owner. I personally wouldnt suggest attempting it
second, there are thousands of flavors of christianity in the body already that would suit any taste,
whats the point of building something that is already built?
Nobody has to put together anything. But it is cool, empowering, and fulfilling to be part of a healthy group.
And we can do this or be part of this if we choose. If we don't want to - fine. Like a lot of things in life,
making it obligatory makes a lot of people walk away...God doesn't oblige us to a lot of these kinds of
peripheral things, bu he does oblige us to "love."
The flavors of Christianity I see where I live do not suit my taste. They all taste like vanilla or vanilla mixed with rotten
bananas. Dull, or dull and corrupt - not inspiring. Voice of the Martys is one group which I really like, but that is a group I am connected to at arms length...
I guess internet groups and arms length connection are nice, but I have an appetite for something more.
I have a committment to organize in some way, so I have no choice.
What I like about my project is that there are many many ways to develop and be
part of healthy groups. I have an idea of how the project will go, but I'm sure that
there will be lots of refining done by the Potter. No, not Harry Potter. Just glad
I vote for using God's terminology, not man's, in this thread. My reason is that man's terminology varies so much with each person's understanding. At least when we use God's words we all go to the same source for them and have the same Spirit in us to open our understanding. Plus, man's words seem to have no solution...you 'recover' forever...whereas God's words which descriibe problems also include the solutions: "you once were, but now are"....!
I'll give one example:
Man has lately made up the word dysfunctional.
There is no definition of dysfunctional in the Word and no solution for it.
Ah, but if we use the word CARNAL, God gave us many definite instructions about its cause and solution!
So..can we define "Healthy" in this thread as "godly" or "how God would have it"? or "biblical"?
hi therbutforgrace,
I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to use God's terminology in some situations. But in this case, I don't want to get stuck in using this or that terminology. My point for this discussion is to encourage brainstorming, new ideas, and free thought. In the end, I trust that God will be working through all of this to open some eyes and brains to some new understanding.
Sometimes being too worried about the right words can get in the way of understanding. Words are words. They are not wisdom or understanding.
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therebutforgrace
Thanks for this pro-active approach, CS...
I vote for using God's terminology, not man's, in this thread. My reason is that man's terminology varies so much with each person's understanding. At least when we use God's words we all go to the same source for them and have the same Spirit in us to open our understanding. Plus, man's words seem to have no solution...you 'recover' forever...whereas God's words which descriibe problems also include the solutions: "you once were, but now are"....!
I'll give one example:
Man has lately made up the word dysfunctional.
There is no definition of dysfunctional in the Word and no solution for it.
Ah, but if we use the word CARNAL, God gave us many definite instructions about its cause and solution!
So..can we define "Healthy" in this thread as "godly" or "how God would have it"? or "biblical"?
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TrustAndObey
Honestly, I kind of doubt "building" an organisation is what is necessary. Building any secondary structure from the body of Christ is counter-productive. That's my opinion at least, and I'm sure it won't agree with a majority of Christians.
Now, I'm not saying coming together is counter-productive, it's the structure that I refer to. And it's the structure that goes against God, because inevitably it all starts to have men and women focus on building "the structure", "the organisation", rather than about God.. It all will eventually become a matter of "YOUR" work, and not "God's" work for the sake of your building. I think we make things difficult when we do this and counter - productive. The Body of Christ should be without walls and boundaries, except those God in Christ has raised. When you "add" to God's structure and boundaries, when you try and build an orginsatiion He hasn't put together, you are going to start having walls, borders, lines of demarcation that say you are a part of this organism or not, you can or can't do such and such in "THIS" organism. Sure, we can all sit here and say that such and such is bibilcal, but maybe it is only "YOUR" perception of what God has said and not really what is true.
I have even been a part of an Christian "organisation" where everyone had an equal say in everything. THe only thing was that it too, like so many, became self-serving, rather than self-giving. And in a way, it will always become that way, since it is something you "built"and therefore will always require you to serve it to keep it functioning, thus the self-serving organisation will always be counter-productive and in my opinion goes at cross-purposes with the Body of Christ, the Church, that our Lord whome we serve is building.
Nah, the best I know and have seen, is just living life and being with people. If you know those in the Body nearby, get together, hang out, do stuff, live life together, help one another, server one another in love, and serve God together, reach out to others with God's love, and continue together.. That's the oneness that we are all called to. Not to a man made and built structure / organisation. It is important to come together. It is important to have others that you hang with that also serve the same God, but to try and build yourself a "club" out of it, I dunno, just everything I've seen always ends up being self-serving and that's by design, maybe not intended design, but there's no way to dismiss it. You can have a world-wide network of people that know one another, help one another, and still not be tied to a organisation.. In fact, it's alive in the world today in many forms, starting with your circle of friends.. Have you decided to incorporate or form a organisation out of your friendships? What's the purpose, it will always end up self-serving in the end.
Instead let Christ rule in our hearts, and let us prefer one another and strive to serve one anothe in love. And those we know and care for should be a part of our lives in every way we are willing to open our hearts and lives to them, and the more we are open to one another, the more that oneness takes place.
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pond
we are not instructed to build anything. what the heck are you talking about?
It is the BODY OF CHRIST!
The Christ is a SPIRIT , jesus was a man , he didnt build anything, He was murdered by those who wanted Him to, people wanted something they could see , touch, agrue about who was better and time and time again Jesus told them it was wrong thinking about the Father.
You want an idol you want an idol.
You can build an idol people have attempted to do so for a very long time and it has caused nothing but problems for them.
God is not a man or a group he is a SPIRIT, His ways are beyond us. Jesus taught us hwo to worship and communicate with this Spirit who created men, His instruction and commandment was to love GOD and men.
why do you complicate the simple love of God to reach for some work that will NEVER ever be able to SAVE anyone from death or give them eternal life? not that it hasnt been tried and attempted by many before you including those who crucified Gods only begotten Son!
why do you think Jesus Christ isnt good enough to be our KING and you must somehow beef up your efforts as a man to compete with what He claims as a Victory already done ?
He is a KING KING OF KINGS.
stop fighting for the throne , stop thinking you can buy or work your way into the kingdom, to meet Jesus Christ or to help people Jesus DIED and God rasied Him from the dead.
hello your still here and YOU need a king with eternal salvation to get you out of here, so read romans again and confess Jesus as LORD...
stop trying to be a LORD your own self. or to other people. our helper is the LORD.
you can not be like God... no matter what idol you attempt to make , and the only one who is even close is Jesus THE RISEN Christ and He said IT IS FINISHED!
you sound like a cult . a man made idea of who is who and how to . scrapping up the gold pieces to make a calf.
because you need to worship only what you made or can do.
not me. God is real and is to be worship in SPIRIT and truth, Jesus is my friend and asks NOTHING of me to recieve the body ONLY HE was able to raise from the dead by HIS OWN love for us.
stop telling me Jesus isnt good enough and you need to do more, you want the worship only Jesus Christ was granted by God almighty.
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Ham
I dunno.. the last year or so I have had a recurring thought- the day of organizations is past. At least unless they can justify their existence.
Carrying the doctrine of pfal to the next generation, doesn't qualify to me, personally. Enough doing it, how many offsprings ARE there, and some have proven to be dismal failures..
I wouldn't want to start another cult.
Now a wine tasting club, that might be the thing.. smile and pass the Merlot..
I thought it interesting that someone here found some merit in a local mega-church.
There's so much "available" out there, why re-invent the wheel?
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smitty
Pond, A well said treatis! It IS Finihsed! He is Lord and Savior. Thanks for the excellent post
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socks
Any organization has to know it's purpose, it's reason for being, for organizing.
Once you understand that, I'd expect the rest would come easy, good or bad.
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Ham
Good point..
Some people have the need to organize just for the sake of organizing though.
So you have a morass of an "organization" that's looking for a cause.
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Holy Smoke
Boy, that's something disciples have been trying to figure out since 34 A.D. The Corinthians (the saints at Corinth) were condescending, out of control, puffed up, immature, you name it. Did not sound like a "healthy" congregation to me. But Paul calls them saints. Then he rips them a new one....
My first thought is that as long as you have human beings making up the "organization" you will have some degree of unhealthiness. Because everyone has some degree of brokenness and we all have to hobble along helping each other until we are perfected, which will be on the Last Day.
That being said, until then, two things have to be paramount: 1. Truthfulness and 2. Humility. Look back on every failed church or fallen minister and you see those things being compromised at leadership level.
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mstar1
Pond beat me to the punch and said more than I couldve or wouldve.
Why do we have to build anything?
First off, Im no bible scholar, and correct me if I am mistaken but the "who' of building the church is a job that is already taken, I doubt anyone here is going to successfully usurp that job title from the rightful owner. I personally wouldnt suggest attempting it
second, there are thousands of flavors of christianity in the body already that would suit any taste,
whats the point of building something that is already built?
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caribousam
Nobody has to put together anything. But it is cool, empowering, and fulfilling to be part of a healthy group.
And we can do this or be part of this if we choose. If we don't want to - fine. Like a lot of things in life,
making it obligatory makes a lot of people walk away...God doesn't oblige us to a lot of these kinds of
peripheral things, bu he does oblige us to "love."
The flavors of Christianity I see where I live do not suit my taste. They all taste like vanilla or vanilla mixed with rotten
bananas. Dull, or dull and corrupt - not inspiring. Voice of the Martys is one group which I really like, but that is a group I am connected to at arms length...
I guess internet groups and arms length connection are nice, but I have an appetite for something more.
I have a committment to organize in some way, so I have no choice.
What I like about my project is that there are many many ways to develop and be
part of healthy groups. I have an idea of how the project will go, but I'm sure that
there will be lots of refining done by the Potter. No, not Harry Potter. Just glad
that I'm a simple lump of clay.
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caribousam
hi therbutforgrace,
I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to use God's terminology in some situations. But in this case, I don't want to get stuck in using this or that terminology. My point for this discussion is to encourage brainstorming, new ideas, and free thought. In the end, I trust that God will be working through all of this to open some eyes and brains to some new understanding.
Sometimes being too worried about the right words can get in the way of understanding. Words are words. They are not wisdom or understanding.
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