Your question is based on the assumption of TWI's definitions of soul and spirit. But if you study it carefully you'll find that "soul" in the Bible is not primarily the "breath life" that makes one alive. Genesis 2:7 says that God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. It doesn't say man HAD a soul, but that he WAS a soul. Also, the word spirit is not used exclusively of the spirit of God. The spirit of man is what the Bible calls the breath life. I wrote about this in more detail on my website, here.
So to answer your question, what part of man gets judged? ALL of him. The Hebrew mindset did not visualize man as a being wtih three parts that could be separated. A person was a soul. His spirit gave him life. His life was what made him alive. When he died he had no more life, that is, no more spirit, so he was no longer a living soul. The Bible called that a dead soul (i.e. dead person). When that person is resurrected, he is revived and has a new life, which will take place at the return of Christ.
The Hebrew mindset did not visualize man as a being wtih three parts that could be separated. A person was a soul. His spirit gave him life. His life was what made him alive. When he died he had no more life, that is, no more spirit, so he was no longer a living soul. The Bible called that a dead soul (i.e. dead person). When that person is resurrected, he is revived and has a new life, which will take place at the return of Christ.
I wonder, however, how much that would have depended upon which Hebrew "mindset" one happened to encounter.
The Jews were (or even now are) hardly homogenous in their views or "mindset" or interpretations.
For example, he differences of ideas between the familiar groups the Pharisees and the Sadducees might be considered.
All men have a soul. Unfortunately, when Adam fell, his soul, which was perfect, became, marred, so to speak. Its like someone defaced the masterpiece the Mona Lisa. That's why mankind is enmity with God, or dead in sin. It does not mean, they are a horrible person. Their soul is defaced, warped, marred.
When one is born again (since God requires absolute holiness to stand in his presence in heaven and live in a different dimension, heavenly, so to speak), we receive holy spirit. Before it was available to have holy spirit, those who believed in God, it was counted unto them for righteousness. The soul is also regenerated, healed, unmarred, or untwisted so to speak.
We also know, from the Word, that God does not kill. One who rejected God, or his son, await the judgment in sheol, the grave. See Jesus and Lazarus and the rich man. Souls do have a consciousness. It is amazing the amount of information regarding this in the Word. TWI was wrong about the doctrine of "soul sleep."
When we die, those born again, are with the Lord. They are clothed in white until they receive their new spiritual bodies.
I would suggest reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He had quite a good grasp of what we are now, and are to become.
Well, it always seemed a strange thing, to raise the dead, sort of "Neh, neh, neh" gloat over them, and then consign them to ...?
Raising/resurrecting/whatever those who have done well, to get their rewards, now that's a different thing.
I do believe that those who have done well according to God's heart and within their cultural constraints will be rewarded even if they have never heard or had the opportunity of hearing about Him and His son JC (eg, South Americans in 167 AD, to choose something meaningless). And people today who genuinely have not heard. But something different for those in more recent times (post printing-press, perhaps) who have had the opportunity to hear but refuse to listen.
But still: that's a "why?" rather than a "what?" so a different question. Though we could debate it here or on a different thread.
It seems that the chief benefit of "getting born again", or "accepting Jesus into your heart" or "taking Jesus as Lord" or whatever terminology one's particular subset of Christianity esposes, is to get a get-out-of-judgement-free card.
Everyone else gets judged on, what exactly? Where precisely is the cutoff brtween eternal life and the second death? So God, since he wasn't entirely clear on the scoring system for eternal life, and recognizing that "Plan A", the law, was too hard to achieve, comes up with "Plan B", the savior.
Of course you have to take the word of those who say they have God's Printed Will ® for the need for a savior, that his actions will actually get you out of the dreaded judgement, or of the existance of this savior, or even of God!
All of this rooted in the belief that the world is a crappy place, but that there is a better place somewhere else, or at least available later.
I know there are many Christians that feel the chief benefit is a "get out of judgment free card" as you state, however, the Christian Bible actually says all will be judged, including those who trusted God.
However, I do understand where you are coming from, and I know a good amount of Christians are Christians because of what they get. Eternal life. Christianity has become all about 'being saved' and having life everlasting. Only, when I read the scriptures, I don't see that as God's heart at all for those who trust in Him.
I don't think a prpoer foundation for judgement has been set at all in mainstream Christianity. Most are still under a law filled undertanding. We do this and that, and we get saved. Even those who think it is just by believing on our Lord Jesus, God's son., by faith and not by works, still have the same view, a law that says do this (believe) and you get this (saved).. When judgement in the scriptures is far from a law based mentality, for the law was made for the lawless not those who trust in God.
And lindyhopper, I think you have a valid question, why resurrect them only to knock them out again. I guess it could seem counter productive. But vengeance is God's, and it is said they will be cast into the lake of fire. So just maybe, "maybe", a form of final punishment but with the opportunity to first repent. I don't know, but I trust God has an answer.
God really never had a plan A or plan B. That is a misunderstanding of scripture. He had and continues to have one plan. That plan was from the beginning and will not change, and it says God does not change. It says in the Hebrew scriptures that God desires mercy not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. He could care less whether or not one kept the law, it was for the lawless. What he cared for and continues to care for are those who will acknowledge Him as their God. Whose desires are His desires. Not different than a Father and His sons.. He desires they acknowledge Him as their Father and seek His love and affection, rather than go do their own thing. That's all. But people get caught up in the law. The thou shalt, and shalt not. When really God's heart is a heart of love and mercy with the desire that we might acknowledge Him as our Father and seek His love. Everything else is a distraction brought about by men's thinking and understanding. The Jews were great at that, adding laws upon laws, rather than a heart to love Him.
So then we shall all be judged. Only it won'y be according to some law and how well you followed it.
But then we can believe what God said and seek Him, or believe that man is on his own - made from some natural forming, in which case rules do not matter, killing, stealing, who cares, theres really no one we have to answer to, we do as we please and who we stomp on in the process doesn't matter, they die, we die, who cares, in the end we all die!, so we might as well live it to the fullest now...
I don't see what is so hard to understand. I can see disagreeing or not liking it, but the understanding is not hard.
God tells us, from the beginning through the end, that there is a new heaven and earth coming. There is a gigantic evolutionary step coming.
He has invited all to enter into this new heaven, into his love.
You, with the wonderful free will he gave you, have the opportunity to make a choice. To be with him, or, if you hate him, to not be with him.
There are many who are repulsed by God and Christ, just as a vegetarian is repulsed by meat.
Love and hate of God are two sides of the same coin.
But it is your choice.
Those who have chosen not to take the offer, to be regenerated, as a child of God, will be given their desire, to be without him. God cannot do otherwise. He cannot force you to take his offer, nor to love him. You are not a robot.
Its not unfair.
What would be unfair, would be if God forced you, or any human being, to love and worship him. That's coercion, and overrides your free will. That would be slavery. That is unjust.
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
And if one receives a greater understanding does not that which was held to before loose it's life?
The common perspectives are people dieing and being destroyed.
Why is this so wanted in a lot of christianity?
Are we not tired of the elitist mindset?
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
By the grace of God, and the Hand of Christ, forgiveness is his vengeance.
Here’s something that I never got an answer to in TWI:
If soul = breath-life and that ceases when a person dies
If body returns to dust and to its constituent molecules
If spirit returns to God but only people born again have spirit
What “part” of natural man gets judged?
1 Thess 3:13-14“I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep … them that sleep in Jesus.”
What about the others, the un-born-again? They’re the ones who ask the question – the ones who really need to know! How are they to be answered?
Romans 2:14-16
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience F11 also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Why would it be necessary to judge something that doesn’t exist anyway (body, soul)?
Or is this just trying to fathom the mind of God (the automobile trying to explain Ford)?
Hi Twinky,
Have you seen the spirit, soul and body thread in the doctrinal section? It may have got off on a kind of tangent discussion about the part the mind plays in receiving revelation.
But the point you bring up here is a perfect reason to consider that every man is really a three-part being, spirit (of man), soul (the intellect and emotions) and body (well, you know). Every man is created in the image of God, spirit. The un-born again man has an unregenerate spirit which still has a hunger to know its Creator. When the Holy Spirit comes into the spirit of man when he's born-again then the man becomes spiritually alive. It's the spirit of man that has eternal life and is judged at the judgment seat.
Have you seen the spirit, soul and body thread in the doctrinal section? It may have got off on a kind of tangent discussion about the part the mind plays in receiving revelation.
But the point you bring up here is a perfect reason to consider that every man is really a three-part being, spirit (of man), soul (the intellect and emotions) and body (well, you know). Every man is created in the image of God, spirit. The un-born again man has an unregenerate spirit which still has a hunger to know its Creator. When the Holy Spirit comes into the spirit of man when he's born-again then the man becomes spiritually alive. It's the spirit of man that has eternal life and is judged at the judgment seat.
There is another way to understand this. As I wrote in my post above, The Old Testament uses the word spirit to describe the breath life that makes man alive, and it says that man became a living soul. This is different from the definitions we were taught in PFAL. In Hebrew (Old Testament) thought, it is the whole man, not any one part of him, that dies, and it is the whole man that will be resurrected in the last days. At that time those resurrected people wll be given eternal life.
Recommended Posts
Mark Clarke
Twinky,
Your question is based on the assumption of TWI's definitions of soul and spirit. But if you study it carefully you'll find that "soul" in the Bible is not primarily the "breath life" that makes one alive. Genesis 2:7 says that God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. It doesn't say man HAD a soul, but that he WAS a soul. Also, the word spirit is not used exclusively of the spirit of God. The spirit of man is what the Bible calls the breath life. I wrote about this in more detail on my website, here.
So to answer your question, what part of man gets judged? ALL of him. The Hebrew mindset did not visualize man as a being wtih three parts that could be separated. A person was a soul. His spirit gave him life. His life was what made him alive. When he died he had no more life, that is, no more spirit, so he was no longer a living soul. The Bible called that a dead soul (i.e. dead person). When that person is resurrected, he is revived and has a new life, which will take place at the return of Christ.
Edited by Mark ClarkeLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I wonder, however, how much that would have depended upon which Hebrew "mindset" one happened to encounter.
The Jews were (or even now are) hardly homogenous in their views or "mindset" or interpretations.
For example, he differences of ideas between the familiar groups the Pharisees and the Sadducees might be considered.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Here's the way I understand it.
All men have a soul. Unfortunately, when Adam fell, his soul, which was perfect, became, marred, so to speak. Its like someone defaced the masterpiece the Mona Lisa. That's why mankind is enmity with God, or dead in sin. It does not mean, they are a horrible person. Their soul is defaced, warped, marred.
When one is born again (since God requires absolute holiness to stand in his presence in heaven and live in a different dimension, heavenly, so to speak), we receive holy spirit. Before it was available to have holy spirit, those who believed in God, it was counted unto them for righteousness. The soul is also regenerated, healed, unmarred, or untwisted so to speak.
We also know, from the Word, that God does not kill. One who rejected God, or his son, await the judgment in sheol, the grave. See Jesus and Lazarus and the rich man. Souls do have a consciousness. It is amazing the amount of information regarding this in the Word. TWI was wrong about the doctrine of "soul sleep."
When we die, those born again, are with the Lord. They are clothed in white until they receive their new spiritual bodies.
I would suggest reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He had quite a good grasp of what we are now, and are to become.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
cman
aahhh yes the haves and have nots
the supposed fall of adam
wonder why Jesus is adam also
and the lord made coats of SKIN
to cover adam and eve
the soul
the spirit
the Christ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
"Bring out your dead! (ding!)...Bring out your dead...."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
"But, but, I'm not dead yet." WHACK!
You know the whole judegement of the unjust thing sure seems odd and not a very loving thing to do.
You die.
God raises you from the dead with the unjust. Why?
To judge you.
"Oh thank you, I haven't even had my morning cup of coffee yet!"
"Sorry, you don't measure up. Back to death for you!"
"But wait...WAIT!" WHACK!
How silly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Well, it always seemed a strange thing, to raise the dead, sort of "Neh, neh, neh" gloat over them, and then consign them to ...?
Raising/resurrecting/whatever those who have done well, to get their rewards, now that's a different thing.
I do believe that those who have done well according to God's heart and within their cultural constraints will be rewarded even if they have never heard or had the opportunity of hearing about Him and His son JC (eg, South Americans in 167 AD, to choose something meaningless). And people today who genuinely have not heard. But something different for those in more recent times (post printing-press, perhaps) who have had the opportunity to hear but refuse to listen.
But still: that's a "why?" rather than a "what?" so a different question. Though we could debate it here or on a different thread.
Mark: Still pondering this. Thanks for the link.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
It seems that the chief benefit of "getting born again", or "accepting Jesus into your heart" or "taking Jesus as Lord" or whatever terminology one's particular subset of Christianity esposes, is to get a get-out-of-judgement-free card.
Everyone else gets judged on, what exactly? Where precisely is the cutoff brtween eternal life and the second death? So God, since he wasn't entirely clear on the scoring system for eternal life, and recognizing that "Plan A", the law, was too hard to achieve, comes up with "Plan B", the savior.
Of course you have to take the word of those who say they have God's Printed Will ® for the need for a savior, that his actions will actually get you out of the dreaded judgement, or of the existance of this savior, or even of God!
All of this rooted in the belief that the world is a crappy place, but that there is a better place somewhere else, or at least available later.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
Oakspear,
I know there are many Christians that feel the chief benefit is a "get out of judgment free card" as you state, however, the Christian Bible actually says all will be judged, including those who trusted God.
However, I do understand where you are coming from, and I know a good amount of Christians are Christians because of what they get. Eternal life. Christianity has become all about 'being saved' and having life everlasting. Only, when I read the scriptures, I don't see that as God's heart at all for those who trust in Him.
I don't think a prpoer foundation for judgement has been set at all in mainstream Christianity. Most are still under a law filled undertanding. We do this and that, and we get saved. Even those who think it is just by believing on our Lord Jesus, God's son., by faith and not by works, still have the same view, a law that says do this (believe) and you get this (saved).. When judgement in the scriptures is far from a law based mentality, for the law was made for the lawless not those who trust in God.
And lindyhopper, I think you have a valid question, why resurrect them only to knock them out again. I guess it could seem counter productive. But vengeance is God's, and it is said they will be cast into the lake of fire. So just maybe, "maybe", a form of final punishment but with the opportunity to first repent. I don't know, but I trust God has an answer.
God really never had a plan A or plan B. That is a misunderstanding of scripture. He had and continues to have one plan. That plan was from the beginning and will not change, and it says God does not change. It says in the Hebrew scriptures that God desires mercy not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. He could care less whether or not one kept the law, it was for the lawless. What he cared for and continues to care for are those who will acknowledge Him as their God. Whose desires are His desires. Not different than a Father and His sons.. He desires they acknowledge Him as their Father and seek His love and affection, rather than go do their own thing. That's all. But people get caught up in the law. The thou shalt, and shalt not. When really God's heart is a heart of love and mercy with the desire that we might acknowledge Him as our Father and seek His love. Everything else is a distraction brought about by men's thinking and understanding. The Jews were great at that, adding laws upon laws, rather than a heart to love Him.
So then we shall all be judged. Only it won'y be according to some law and how well you followed it.
But then we can believe what God said and seek Him, or believe that man is on his own - made from some natural forming, in which case rules do not matter, killing, stealing, who cares, theres really no one we have to answer to, we do as we please and who we stomp on in the process doesn't matter, they die, we die, who cares, in the end we all die!, so we might as well live it to the fullest now...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
T&O
That's the understatement of the centuries!!!!
On every subject in your post!
Seems to me they got it really screwed up.
Don't know judgement, death, dieing, living.
You name it.
Gotta get out of the ditch when you see your in it.
Could be a whole different understanding entirely!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I don't see what is so hard to understand. I can see disagreeing or not liking it, but the understanding is not hard.
God tells us, from the beginning through the end, that there is a new heaven and earth coming. There is a gigantic evolutionary step coming.
He has invited all to enter into this new heaven, into his love.
You, with the wonderful free will he gave you, have the opportunity to make a choice. To be with him, or, if you hate him, to not be with him.
There are many who are repulsed by God and Christ, just as a vegetarian is repulsed by meat.
Love and hate of God are two sides of the same coin.
But it is your choice.
Those who have chosen not to take the offer, to be regenerated, as a child of God, will be given their desire, to be without him. God cannot do otherwise. He cannot force you to take his offer, nor to love him. You are not a robot.
Its not unfair.
What would be unfair, would be if God forced you, or any human being, to love and worship him. That's coercion, and overrides your free will. That would be slavery. That is unjust.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Every one will change and continue to change.
This much is certain.
A 'God' that kills as in eliminating forever any life existance does not exist.
Such is the ignorance and scriptural racism that exists today in many minds.
'Free Will' is not understood at all in most critical thinking.
Just how does one think that people came into being.
It's so big and done that nothing will stop life.
Not even death.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
And if one receives a greater understanding does not that which was held to before loose it's life?
The common perspectives are people dieing and being destroyed.
Why is this so wanted in a lot of christianity?
Are we not tired of the elitist mindset?
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
By the grace of God, and the Hand of Christ, forgiveness is his vengeance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
Hi Twinky,
Have you seen the spirit, soul and body thread in the doctrinal section? It may have got off on a kind of tangent discussion about the part the mind plays in receiving revelation.
But the point you bring up here is a perfect reason to consider that every man is really a three-part being, spirit (of man), soul (the intellect and emotions) and body (well, you know). Every man is created in the image of God, spirit. The un-born again man has an unregenerate spirit which still has a hunger to know its Creator. When the Holy Spirit comes into the spirit of man when he's born-again then the man becomes spiritually alive. It's the spirit of man that has eternal life and is judged at the judgment seat.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
There is another way to understand this. As I wrote in my post above, The Old Testament uses the word spirit to describe the breath life that makes man alive, and it says that man became a living soul. This is different from the definitions we were taught in PFAL. In Hebrew (Old Testament) thought, it is the whole man, not any one part of him, that dies, and it is the whole man that will be resurrected in the last days. At that time those resurrected people wll be given eternal life.
http://www.godskingdomfirst.net/TheDead.htm#soul
Edited by Mark ClarkeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.