My twig coordinator protected us from twi

[Catcup]

Yep, I certainly botched the quote feature there.

I apologize.

Even thought you didn't take offence, it coulda happened.

I'm probably the least-skilled person on the board with computers.

To give you an idea, I just learned to cut and paste a few months ago.

Go ahead and laugh, I don't mind.

Catcup I hope you understand I did not intend to put words in your mouth and I hope that counts for something.

Of course it doesn't mean I wasn't wrong and I hope you accept my apology.

No problem. It takes a while to learn all the bells & whistles on this site.

[Deciderator]

No problem. It takes a while to learn all the bells & whistles on this site.

I can't blame it on the site.

This one was just my own bumbling and not paying attention. My 'pooter skills are nearly nonexistent but I should have been more watchful.

[skyrider]

Say all you want about "the good ole days"........BUT KNOW THIS, wierwille and martindale drove these new leaders (corps) to be aggressive and confrontational and impersonal wanting to oust the free-floating and unrestricted twig coordinators who held little allegiance to wierwille or twi.

To add to this......

IMO, as the arrogance and legalism mounted in twi.......Wierwille and Martindale and Geer strongly believed in the MOG-doctrine, and thus....The true Word emanates, in present time, from the Man of God holding the microphone and keeps its purest intent as it passes down the chain of command via teaching tapes and magazine articles.

The corps leadership were to adhere to the strictest standards of allegiance and servitude.....like "messenger boys" after wierwille, and later martindale (and later, geer -- after the "patriarch paper")......had spoken. Therefore, the free-floating and unrestricted twig coordinators had NO PLACE in the ever-tightening control hand of twi. Had wierwille envisioned this tight-fisted control when he started the corps program? I don't know.

It doesn't surprise me that some come on GS and blame the nazi-corps for screwing up those "sweet twigs/special times and confronting issues. But what DOES SURPRISE ME.....is that some new posters or vpw-apologists seem to be unable to connect the dots back to wierwille.

In 1986, when geer started reading his "dr.wierwille was our patriarch" paper and usurped twi's trustees' authority over holding the keys to the kingdom (i.e. housing and holding forth THE TRUE WORD from hq)...... he stepped into "the man of god's shoes" and now, "the true word" was emanating out of gartmore.

Gee, I thought that we were being taught aspects of the Grace Administration.......NOT the Patriarchal Administration. Or, was twi just a MLM company? Or, adapting to a pope/peasant pyramid plan?

Things were GOING SOUTH so fast.......I should have invested in a sunscreen/tanning company.

Edited July 29, 2007 by skyrider

[ChristAlone]

Not all of us who were leading God's people knew of the "adultery" (the word is rape), drunkenness, and lies. If I had KNOWN that was going on, I would have LEFT after warning as many people as I could, and most certainly would NEVER have hung around and continued to lead people to the organization.

I would wager to say that those who "protected" folks underneath them, for the most part, probably didn't know all the gory details of what was going on behind closed doors, but like us, thought, for example, they were simply fighting politics among old farts who should be retired.

I was able to connect those dots only after I left and was able to compare notes on WayDale with others. Then the "partial pieces" of the puzzle I had, could be put together with the "partial pieces" of others, and the big picture then emerged.

So there are many of us who don't fit into your picture of a person who is deluded into thinking the "adulteries, drunkenness and lies aren't really all that bad," who as "accomplices", knowingly lead God's flock to a wolf in sheeps clothing, deserving the millstone around their necks.

I think that description would be reserved for those who were in on such activities, such as VP and LCM's pimps, and especially those people who, after the exposure of Martindale's crimes were made public, covered his actions, lied to the followers of TWI, labeled it adultery between consensual parties and denied it was rape, and did their level best to keep the flock captive in the organization, and lead more people to it.

NOT people who were unaware of the depth of the evil that was really going on, who were trying to protect the people God had entrusted to their care, while fighting to change the organization, until they realized it was a fruitless endeavor.

Catcup, I agree with most of what you said above. If someone did not know, they did not know. You were just as much

the victim as everyone else which was my point in response to saying the twig leaders tried to protect lower members.

However, Biblically that still doesn't quite leave us off the hook for what happens to others because of the bad

seed we have passed along:

"Watch your life and DOCTRINE closely. Preserve them because if you do so, you will save both yourself AND

your hearers. " 1 Timothy 4:16

See, it says watch your doctrine. Even if we were not privy to the sick antics of the cult leaders, we can assess

their doctrine against what the Bible actually says. Loose morals may have began at the top but I know others

were involved with immorality in the general membership too. That's why the Bible says we are to "watch our life and doctrine" because we will save both ourselves and our hearers. The salvation of OTHERS is involved in this!

Once again my point is that if the root is bad so will be the whole tree. Others may think otherwise, but Jesus said a good

tree can not bear bad fruit and by their fruits you will know them.

We all have the responsibility to make sure we are not preaching another Gospel as Paul said there would be ananthma's

or curses for doing so.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed!" Galations 1:8

Ouch!!!! This is the result of preaching another Gospel.... a cursed life. Perhaps this is why the Bible says that not many of us should be teachers?:

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1

So, it goes with the territory. Better make sure the stuff is right because we teachers will be judged more strictly! Perhaps we didn't know of the rape, drunkeness and other excesses at the top, but we should examine the doctrine which was clearly contray to what the Bible taught. Baptism was only one red flag. Jesus commanded his followers to baptize but Wierwille says don't bother. So whose doctrine did people follow? Yep.

Now, I believe that there is no sin that can not be covered under the blood of Christ. Still, unless we see our responsibility

to guard our lives and doctrine as the Bible says we should, we may find ourselves repeating the same mistakes. Looking behind at a trail of ruined lives, some irrepairably, I can't just dismiss it all by saying, "Well, I didn't know what was going on." Bless God

I never recruited anyone into my cult and once I actually read the Bible for myself, I was out of there. Only because I loved the truth more than staying in the cult was I able to break free from the deluding spirit they are all bound by.

Bless you!

ChristAlone

[Catcup]

Catcup, I agree with most of what you said above. If someone did not know, they did not know. You were just as much

the victim as everyone else which was my point in response to saying the twig leaders tried to protect lower members.

However, Biblically that still doesn't quite leave us off the hook for what happens to others because of the bad

seed we have passed along:

"Watch your life and DOCTRINE closely. Preserve them because if you do so, you will save both yourself AND

your hearers. " 1 Timothy 4:16

See, it says watch your doctrine. Even if we were not privy to the sick antics of the cult leaders, we can assess

their doctrine against what the Bible actually says. Loose morals may have began at the top but I know others

were involved with immorality in the general membership too. That's why the Bible says we are to "watch our life and doctrine" because we will save both ourselves and our hearers. The salvation of OTHERS is involved in this!

Once again my point is that if the root is bad so will be the whole tree. Others may think otherwise, but Jesus said a good

tree can not bear bad fruit and by their fruits you will know them.

We all have the responsibility to make sure we are not preaching another Gospel as Paul said there would be ananthma's

or curses for doing so.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed!" Galations 1:8

Ouch!!!! This is the result of preaching another Gospel.... a cursed life. Perhaps this is why the Bible says that not many of us should be teachers?:

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1

So, it goes with the territory. Better make sure the stuff is right because we teachers will be judged more strictly! Perhaps we didn't know of the rape, drunkeness and other excesses at the top, but we should examine the doctrine which was clearly contray to what the Bible taught. Baptism was only one red flag. Jesus commanded his followers to baptize but Wierwille says don't bother. So whose doctrine did people follow? Yep.

Now, I believe that there is no sin that can not be covered under the blood of Christ. Still, unless we see our responsibility

to guard our lives and doctrine as the Bible says we should, we may find ourselves repeating the same mistakes. Looking behind at a trail of ruined lives, some irrepairably, I can't just dismiss it all by saying, "Well, I didn't know what was going on." Bless God

I never recruited anyone into my cult and once I actually read the Bible for myself, I was out of there. Only because I loved the truth more than staying in the cult was I able to break free from the deluding spirit they are all bound by.

Bless you!

ChristAlone

Good for you.

Let me introduce myself.

Nah, I won't. It would take too long.

Suffice it to say I have been there and done that.

Maybe you should teach doctrine, eh? Sounds like you could've saved us all a load of trouble if you had stuck around and reproved us all back then.

[ChristAlone]

C.A.

I find your posts to be insightful and enlightening.

Thanks Waysider!

I only want us to take control and responsibility for getting involved in a cult so we don't

end up being victimized again. If we don't assess what we could have done differently,

what is to stop us from falling into the next trap some loud-mouth sets?

Bless you much,

ChristAlone

[excathedra]

Maybe you should teach doctrine, eh? Sounds like you could've saved us all a load of trouble if you had stuck around and reproved us all back then.

well i'm thinkin'

doctrine

reproof

correction

[Catcup]

Thanks Waysider!

I only want us to take control and responsibility for getting involved in a cult so we don't

end up being victimized again. If we don't assess what we could have done differently,

what is to stop us from falling into the next trap some loud-mouth sets?

Bless you much,

ChristAlone

Take responsibility for getting involved in a cult, which is by its very nature deceptive?

I think most everyone here admits they were duped, except for those who never fail in their allegience to VP et al

I think most everyone here, at least those who have been out for some time, have already assessed what they could have done differently.

It's easy to be glib when you're using 20/20 hindsight.

And if you think YOU are too clever to ever fall for another trap, you've already fallen into one, my friend. Milgram pointed that out in the 1960's.

[excathedra]

what is to stop us from falling into the next trap some loud-mouth sets?

a loud mouth did not steal my soul

[ChristAlone]

Good for you.

Let me introduce myself.

Nah, I won't. It would take too long.

Suffice it to say I have been there and done that.

Maybe you should teach doctrine, eh? Sounds like you could've saved us all a load of trouble if you had stuck around and reproved us all back then.

Hey Catcup,

You know in your heart of hearts what I quoted from the Bible was true

and on point. EVERYBODY, me included, has made mistakes in this life,

some more serious and far reaching than others.

The Bible is simply telling us just how serious it is to ourselves and others'

salvation to make sure we have the right doctrine. The "reproof" you feel

from my post is really God speaking to your conscience from the Bible.

I've admitted my error and moved on. I wasn't trying to hit you with a guilt trip.

However, unless we can see and admit where we've "missed it", we are destined

to repeat the same mistakes, taking others down with us. So if you feel a little

uncomfortable, well, just think of people whose lives have never recovered

normalcy because of TWI and other cults like it.

Bless you in Jesus' name,

ChristAlone

[excathedra]

The "reproof" you feel from my post is really God speaking to your conscience from the Bible.

oh yeah, you're god now ?

[Catcup]

Hey Catcup,

You know in your heart of hearts what I quoted from the Bible was true

and on point. EVERYBODY, me included, has made mistakes in this life,

some more serious and far reaching than others

The Bible is simply telling us just how serious it is to ourselves and others'

salvation to make sure we have the right doctrine. The "reproof" you feel

from my post is really God speaking to your conscience from the Bible.

Sorry, No. I don't need you to explain to me what I am feeling. Nor do I need you to quote me the Bible. I had enough of that in TWI, thank you very much.

What I am feeling is frustration at someone who has no idea who I am or what I have done telling me what I should do or should have done. You have no idea.

I've admitted my error and moved on.

You seem to be implying I need to?

I wasn't trying to hit you with a guilt trip.

Coulda fooled me.

However, unless we can see and admit where we've "missed it", we are destined

to repeat the same mistakes, taking others down with us.

You seem to believe that people here have not admitted their mistakes, kiddo. Maybe you don't realize this, but you come off awfully preachy and self-righteous. In case you haven't noticed, preachy and self-righteous doesn't go over well here.

So if you feel a little uncomfortable, well, just think of people whose lives have never recovered

normalcy because of TWI and other cults like it.

I know of several people on this thread who could teach YOU more about THAT than you would care to know.

[ChristAlone]

Take responsibility for getting involved in a cult, which is by its very nature deceptive?

I think most everyone here admits they were duped, except for those who never fail in their allegience to VP et al

I think most everyone here, at least those who have been out for some time, have already assessed what they could have done differently.

It's easy to be glib when you're using 20/20 hindsight.

And if you think YOU are too clever to ever fall for another trap, you've already fallen into one, my friend. Milgram pointed that out in the 1960's.

Well, Catcup that is why I said admitting what I could have done according

to what the BIBLE has to offer could help. I never said anything about being

"too clever to fall for another trap".

Look, there are people here who no longer want to do the "victim thing". I can

say, I did not read the Bible to heed Jesus' & Paul's teachings about false shepards. That

was my bad! So I take some responsibility for what happened. If someone warns

me about something and I disregard their message to proceed anyway, did I do everything

I could to protect myself and others from the outcome? Probably not.

So I am saying this about myself but if someone sees it also applies to them, well fine.

Love ya!

ChristAlone

[Catcup]

The "reproof" you feel

from my post is really God speaking to your conscience from the Bible.

Just wanted you to see that again and think about what you said.

Pretty audacious to assume YOU are speaking for GOD to my conscience.

Like I said. Self-righteous doesn't go over too good herel. Go sell Mrs. Church Lady to someone who will believe you.

[ChristAlone]

Just wanted you to see that again and think about what you said.

Pretty audacious to assume YOU are speaking for GOD to my conscience.

Like I said. Self-righteous doesn't go over too good herel. Go sell Mrs. Church Lady to someone who will believe you.

Catcup,

It really doesn't matter what goes over where. I don't

speak to please people just what I have found has helped me.

Notice all of your replies have degraded to ad hominems and

personal attacks. I simply quoted the Bible, nothing more.

I'm sorry if by doing so, I have upset you. Be blessed and go in peace.

ChristAlone

[Catcup]

Catcup,

It really doesn't matter what goes over where. I don't

speak to please people just what I have found has helped me.

Notice all of your replies have degraded to ad hominems and

personal attacks. I simply quoted the Bible, nothing more.

I'm sorry if by doing so, I have upset you. Be blessed and go in peace.

ChristAlone

It's one thing to speak in order to please yourself and what helps you.

It's totally different to insinuate you are speaking for God to my conscience.

It's frankly delusional on your part.

And you don't think it's a personal attack on your part to insinuate people here are victims who need to admit it was their own fault they were deceived and to dump a guilt trip-- whether you say you intend to or not--- on people YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW?

Edited July 29, 2007 by Catcup

[waysider]

I can only speak for myself, and quite frankly, I don't always do THAT very well.

If I had known beforehand( for certain) what this amusement ride called TWI was going to be like, I surely would not have bought a ticket or stood in line to ride.

Yeah, I accept some blame for sticking around as long as I did, but I also think I was conned into buying a product that was promoted with false advertising.

Truth be known, I actually felt guilty about LEAVING until I came here and discovered that things were not as they had appeared to be. I had drifted away and did not know what had happened with TWI.

Some of the blame, ultimately, has to fall on the advertiser who duped unwitting customers.

edited for speeling.

Edited July 29, 2007 by waysider

[WordWolf]

CA,

Hello.

Your intent probably is to acknowledge the damage that was done,

and encourage people to acknowledge the hurts they received, and the conjobs that

conned them, so that they can heal and move on.

I applaud those goals. Generally, Catcup does, as well.

In this particular case, however, your METHODS are striking sparks with people

who would agree with you normally. Why?

Your approach has a lecturing tone. Many of us have been posting and reading here

for YEARS, and have already had a LOT of time processing all the information.

Your posts make it sound like the ideas you're presenting are novel and new to us.

Not here-we talk about this ALL THE TIME here, month after month, year after year,

and between all the iterations of the GSC and its predecessor,

that's been happening for A DECADE.

People who arrive and decide none of us understand anything and choose to lecture

don't get a favourable response- because they're not making a good impression.

"We were hoodwinked? We should seek to explore how, and achieve closure,

then move on with our lives?" That's the everyday report here. If you walked in

announcing it, your news is very, very late.

Your intentions are good, but your approaches are negating your intentions.

Please consider, and formulate future posts accordingly.

Thank you and have a nice day.

[Catcup]

CA,

Hello.

Your intent probably is to acknowledge the damage that was done,

and encourage people to acknowledge the hurts they received, and the conjobs that

conned them, so that they can heal and move on.

I applaud those goals. Generally, Catcup does, as well.

In this particular case, however, your METHODS are striking sparks with people

who would agree with you normally. Why?

Your approach has a lecturing tone. Many of us have been posting and reading here

for YEARS, and have already had a LOT of time processing all the information.

Your posts make it sound like the ideas you're presenting are novel and new to us.

Not here-we talk about this ALL THE TIME here, month after month, year after year,

and between all the iterations of the GSC and its predecessor,

that's been happening for A DECADE.

People who arrive and decide none of us understand anything and choose to lecture

don't get a favourable response- because they're not making a good impression.

"We were hoodwinked? We should seek to explore how, and achieve closure,

then move on with our lives?" That's the everyday report here. If you walked in

announcing it, your news is very, very late.

Your intentions are good, but your approaches are negating your intentions.

Please consider, and formulate future posts accordingly.

Thank you and have a nice day.

What WW said.

Thanks.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Catcup

[Eagle]

As A former TWI twig coordinator, I am ashamed to say I did not shield my people from TWI and their policies. That was a major reason for the exodus from the fellowship. It had been going pretty good and growing until micromanaging stepped in and I allowed it.

It was a lot to learn from.

I have been chosen to lead a small fellowship for people 40 and over in September from my United Brethren church. I have seen some micromanaging there from the lead pastor. I will not allow that to happen this time. I will resign first and leave the church.

Seems TWI is not the only micromanager in ministries and churches.

[Deciderator]

When I had a twig I wasn't micromanaged by anyone.

I had the meetings when and where I wanted, anyone who wanted to come was welcome and what was taught was up to me.

They weren't happy when I didn't tell them who was giving what in the abundant sharing, but I just ignored their grumbling and did things the way I wanted to.

Of course when I announced I was going to Gartmore it ruffled feathers.

I was welcome at another twig but I didn't go much because I was "the guy who went to Gartmore" and I didn't want to be a distraction.

Not being connected to TWI didn't make much difference other than I didn't have their branch and limb meetings to go to.

Otherwise I just kept doing what I always did with my twig.

I am pleased I didn't get caught up in the drama that still plagues others.

[WordWolf]

When I had a twig I wasn't micromanaged by anyone.

I had the meetings when and where I wanted, anyone who wanted to come was welcome and what was taught was up to me.

My experience was much the same.

They weren't happy when I didn't tell them who was giving what in the abundant sharing, but I just ignored their grumbling and did things the way I wanted to.

Of course when I announced I was going to Gartmore it ruffled feathers.

I was welcome at another twig but I didn't go much because I was "the guy who went to Gartmore" and I didn't want to be a distraction.

Not being connected to TWI didn't make much difference other than I didn't have their branch and limb meetings to go to.

Otherwise I just kept doing what I always did with my twig.

Since NY State went with Gartmore when the 1989 split came down, you would have fit right

in locally here. I went to Gartmore, too.

I am pleased I didn't get caught up in the drama that still plagues others.

[Deciderator]

Since NY State went with Gartmore when the 1989 split came down, you would have fit right

in locally here. I went to Gartmore, too.

My twig coordinator gave me and some others material Mr. Geer taught, the History of the Mystery was one, but we also fellowshipped with the Limb of D.C. He didn't push people either way, he just taught the Word the best he could and gave us what he believed would bless us the most.

He got nailed for copying the material and was blackballed. When I went to Gartmore, right after I got there Mr. Geer picked me up hitchiking and I told him I had with me some stuff I understood I was not supposed to have and wanted to give it back. I told him I had made no copies and that it blessed me much. I told him he could send me packing for it, but I insisted he make things right with my twig coordinator and he did. He also told me to keep the material.

My twig coordinator did not tell us about the whole Gartmore split or when he gave us things like what I mentioned above.

None of us cared what the source was.

And not only did this twig coordinator not mention it, but I had made several trips to Paris and the believers there didn't, either.

We didn't talk about what the brass was doing.

We were too busy talking about God's Word.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Deciderator

[skyrider]

And not only did this twig coordinator not mention it, but I had made several trips to Paris and the believers there didn't, either.

We didn't talk about what the brass was doing.

We were too busy talking about God's Word.

Reminds me of Acts 15.

When Paul and Barnabus traveled among the small fellowships and gatherings......."declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren [v. 3]."

BUT......when Paul and Barnabus got to Jerusalem and were to meet with "the brass" THAT IS WHEN it was necessary to confront the wrong doctrines, the contentions and malice that were creeping into the Church of God. Leaders needed to confront other leaders.....and to confront the growing legalism.

In twi, wierwille set up a pyramid structure and drove off any schism, any critiquing.......heck, didn't Pxter J. W@de split away from vpw in 1968? Martindale followed in the same mog-revered structure.....so did geer. The legalism continued to grow and grow......any leader who opposed the mog was shouted down, driven off. The europeans have said the same about geer's thing at gartmore. I know Wolfgang S.....the German country coordinator split off from geer's leadership around 1987 (?). Same deal.

Yeah.....we talk about God's Word.

But.......when it's time to deal with Acts 15 stuff, then LEADERS should have rolled up their sleeves and dealt with it. Even Geer's POP has NO CREDIBILITY OF CHURCH DIALOGUE AND OPEN CONFRONTATION. Just same deal, different mog, different shift of authority.

Edited August 6, 2007 by skyrider

[WordWolf]

Reminds me of Acts 15.

When Paul and Barnabus traveled among the small fellowships and gatherings......."declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren [v. 3]."

BUT......when Paul and Barnabus got to Jerusalem and were to meet with "the brass" THAT IS WHEN it was necessary to confront the wrong doctrines, the contentions and malice that were creeping into the Church of God. Leaders needed to confront other leaders.....and to confront the growing legalism.

In twi, wierwille set up a pyramid structure and drove off any schism, any critiquing.......heck, didn't Pxter J. W@de split away from vpw in 1968? Martindale followed in the same mog-revered structure.....so did geer. The legalism continued to grow and grow......any leader who opposed the mog was shouted down, driven off. The europeans have said the same about geer's thing at gartmore. I know Wolfgang S.....the German country coordinator split off from geer's leadership around 1987 (?). Same deal.

Yeah.....we talk about God's Word.

But.......when it's time to deal with Acts 15 stuff, then LEADERS should have rolled up their sleeves and dealt with it. Even Geer's POP has NO CREDIBILITY OF CHURCH DIALOGUE AND OPEN CONFRONTATION. Just same deal, different mog, different shift of authority.

IIRC, PW left when he saw which way the wind was blowing. (He didn't elaborate very much when he posted here.)

Correction: Wolfie didn't leave cg around 1987. He was on-grounds at Gartmore House in 1989, and was working translation

with at least one Advanced class. He was also the assistant coordinator of that class. Say what you will, he was dedicated-

while the Berlin Wall was falling, he was running a class outside of Germany.

Whether that dedication was properly placed is a seperate discussion.