Stephen Mansfield, Con-Man for Christ

[Mister P-Mosh]

I don't want this to turn into a political or dogmatic thread, but there is an author claiming to be a historian that wrote a book that seems to be popular amongst dominionist Christians these days. I haven't seen anyone discuss it here, but the book is called "Ten Tortured Words: How the Founding Fathers Tried to Protect Religion in America and What's Happened Since." It's a book I'm sure a lot of people here would be interested in for various reasons, but there's a problem.

It's basically an amalgam of lies and ignorance of history. He gets a lot of facts wrong, and where no facts exist, he just makes stuff up. A perfect example of this is from an Amazon.com review of his book (which I won't link to because I don't want to help his google rank.):

On pages 143 to 148 of his book, Mansfield presents a list of twenty quotes, the purpose of which is to argue against the idea that, while many of the founders were personally religious, the government they created was secular. Some of these quotes are accurately presented, but most are either out of context, complete fabrications, or in some other way deceptive....

a striking example of Stephen Mansfield's own brand of word torturing, in the form of the following Madison "quote," found on page 146.

Religion is the basis and foundation of government. -- JAMES MADISON

Where does this quote come from? Well, according to Mansfield's note, Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments. Here is the untortured paragraph from that document, with the words assembled by Mansfield to create his quote in bold.

15. Because finally, "the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience" is held by the same tenure with all his other rights. If we recur to its origin, it is equally the gift of nature; if we weigh its importance, it cannot be less dear to us; if we consider the "Declaration of those rights which pertain to the good people of Virginia, as the basis and foundation of government," it is enumerated with equal solemnity, or rather studied emphasis.

The quote does reflect positively on the right of people to follow their own religion and views it as an important right. What it doesn't do is infer his mangled quote. There are many other examples of this, but I think Mansfield sounds like another VPW, just out to make a buck and brainwash people in the process.

[waysider]

Careful, Mister P

Next thing you know some Mansfield apologist will come crawling out of the woodwork to herald the wonderful time he had on a week long fishing trip with Mr. Mansfield and proclaim how Mr. M. taught him methods of baiting the hook that had previously been unknown to mankind.

Holy cats!!!

You may be correct about that similarity of the two men!

[Bluzeman]

Just curious, what is a "dominionist Christian"?

Rick(A Christian who is a FIRM believer in the seperation of Church and State)

[bulwinkl]

Wikipedia-

Dominionism describes a movement among socially conservative Christians to gain influence or control over secular civil government through political action — seeking either a nation governed by Christians or a nation governed by a Christian understanding of biblical law. The use and application of this terminology is a matter of controversy.

That's the definition I found.

[Bluzeman]

Thanks bullwinkl.

Rick

[GarthP2000]

... and they _definitely_ do NOT believe in the separation of church and state.

Not by a long shot!

[Mister P-Mosh]

Just curious, what is a "dominionist Christian"?

Rick(A Christian who is a FIRM believer in the seperation of Church and State)

bulwinkl got it right. You're not a dominionist. I don't even know if we really have any here.

I saw a movie called "Jesus Camp" that was a documentary following some dominionist children going to a summer camp. Having grown up in TWI I definitely felt sympathy towards the brainwashing those kids were going through. They were being raised to be "soldiers for Christ" and the woman running the camp was praising Islamic suicide bombers for their dedication and saying that Americans needed to raise Christian kids to be that dedicated. I knew these people existed, but seeing them in their element made it even more shocking and makes Martindale-era TWI insanity seem quaint.

[Dot Matrix]

Careful, Mister P

Next thing you know some Mansfield apologist will come crawling out of the woodwork to herald the wonderful time he had on a week long fishing trip with Mr. Mansfield and proclaim how Mr. M. taught him methods of baiting the hook that had previously been unknown to mankind.

Holy cats!!!

You may be correct about that similarity of the two men!

Okay, I think this is pretty funny!

[TheEvan]

A distinction needs to be made between dominionist theology which gives rise to the more political description in the above wiki link. Dominionists believe that more and more souls can be won to Christ resulting in an eventual kingdom of God on earth in the spiritual sense.

I've seen the biblical justifications but they seem rather tortured. I think the Bible teaches exactly the opposite. While I certainly believe in separation of church and state, I think the greater danger is the elimination of church from state. While such fools as Mansfield are the poster child-boogey man for those who fear church incursions into the state, the real evil that lurks around the corner (imo, of course) is wholesale persecution of Christians and Christian ideas.

[Mister P-Mosh]

A distinction needs to be made between dominionist theology which gives rise to the more political description in the above wiki link. Dominionists believe that more and more souls can be won to Christ resulting in an eventual kingdom of God on earth in the spiritual sense.

I've seen the biblical justifications but they seem rather tortured. I think the Bible teaches exactly the opposite. While I certainly believe in separation of church and state, I think the greater danger is the elimination of church from state. While such fools as Mansfield are the poster child-boogey man for those who fear church incursions into the state, the real evil that lurks around the corner (imo, of course) is wholesale persecution of Christians and Christian ideas.

That's precisely why the separation of church and state (which is a two-way street) is so important. Religion should not control the government because religion is non-democratic and authoritarian. At the same time, banning certain thoughts and speech, including religion, is non-democratic and authoritarian as well. There is a balance that must be met to ensure freedom is protected both ways.

[Bolshevik]

Where does "separation of church and state" come from?

[GarthP2000]

... largely from the Enlightenment period, methinks.

[Mister P-Mosh]

Where does "separation of church and state" come from?

A few places. For example, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Injecting Christianity into government to pass laws would be establishing a state religion." from the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution, or one of our early treaties, the Treaty of Tripoli that states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." It's very obvious if you look. However, like I said, I didn't want to turn this into a political thread, but simply to announce that an author is posting nonsense in an apparent attempt to deceive people.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Mister P-Mosh

[waysider]

Where does "separation of church and state" come from?

In a letter addressed to The Danbury Baptists, dated 1802, Thomas Jefferson stated the following in regard to The First Amendment to The United States Constitution:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

[Mister P-Mosh]

In a letter addressed to The Danbury Baptists, dated 1802, Thomas Jefferson stated the following in regard to The First Amendment to The United States Constitution:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

I agree with you that this is useful for establishing the intent of the first amendment, but the dominionists often argue that since this letter was not law, it doesn't count. However, as you said, it further explains the 1st amendment, so I agree that it is a valid piece of information.