Garth you added "not tolerant" doesn't this mean wont be taught?
"Not tolerant", meaning has no tolerance towards, treats ill of, refuses to even consider, others who have a different point of view or belief system. And it can reach the point of doing the aforementioned harm/putting to death of those people. The non-tolerant individual can still be taught, but once the teaching/information he receives crosses or challenges what he believes in, the acceptance/consideration of the information then shuts down with no further consideration after that, and his behavior towards the information giver changes accordingly.
Now there are things that people should not be tolerant of; immoral and unethical behavior towards others, unprovoked abuse towards others (the aforementioned persecution of heretics/blasphemers being but one prime example), and the like. But differing religious beliefs (so long as they do not clearly abuse others of their rights and dignities) do not fall within the category of things that people should not be tolerant of. ... Calvin clearly didn't accept that.
I think you took that first part of my post wrong. I didnt mean to say that for people like you and me historical records make accepting the gospel difficult. What I meant to say is that historical records wether talking about Calvin or the Christian crusades, present reasons for some that want nothing to do with the gospel. Thus, I was trying to reference the point that the Calvin historical record which you talked about, makes for problems greater than people just accepting Calvin. In fact they give reason for others to doubt Christianity all together.
Garth u said:
Then how would you suggest we reference our views, sky? Scientific material doesn't seem to fly to the religious side of the river either.
No I agree 100 percent with you Garth they are great reference points. The only problem is the doctinal reasons for the Christian crusades of those people who held them and Calvinists, have to be undressed in order for people to see the true aspects of the gospel. Sorry I didnt say that better. You also make a great point about science because people of the gospel have to counterpoint athiesm. People of the gospel, have to say so much, to make someone see it.
THUS WE NEED LOTS OF MINDS, LIKE YOURS AND MINE AND GUYS LIKE MICHAEL BEHE (a Doctor who is a athiesm refuter)AND MANY MORE :) Which begs a simple point. When people do things in Christs name that is wrong, it gets to be a MESS. Somehow I think thats what God meant by not using his name in vain.
Then how would you suggest we reference our views, sky? Scientific material doesn't seem to fly to the religious side of the river either.
Sushi said that, not me.
I think you took that first part of my post wrong. I didnt mean to say that for people like you and me historical records make accepting the gospel difficult. What I meant to say is that historical records wether talking about Calvin or the Christian crusades, present reasons for some that want nothing to do with the gospel. Thus, I was trying to reference the point that the Calvin historical record which you talked about, makes for problems greater than people just accepting Calvin. In fact they give reason for others to doubt Christianity all together.
Methinks that you and I are more alike in what you are communicating here than you realize. :huh:
There's another possiblity here. Could it be, he wasn't interested in your particular version of God?
Actually, the guy is a pretty good friend of mine. When I talk to him I am not preaching, just interested in how people in that part of the world view Christianity, other faiths and such. I am not someone trying to tell like him what to do. He is an interesting man, having lived on the North Vietnam and China border in the former DMZ. He has some Chinese ancestory in him, so he can explain that part of the world like no one can. For example, I learned from him how Communist leaders treated Tibetan Budists in China under Mao and today. He also taught me how North Vietnamese Communists treat Buddahists and other religions. The stuff I mentioned here was only stuff we crossed after he TAUGHT me some rather fascinating things.
As far as your saying he wasn't interested in (my) version of God? I take that as an insult Sushi. The gospel isnt that diffiult to point out. The things I pointed out have stood for years in many Churches as basic stuff, except apparently with John Calvin. As far as this particular person goes? He's my freind, I dont insist he accept anything from me, but he doesn't get insulting if I talk about it either.
I am new here at your Christian webpage. Someone told me to read this and I did. Greetings to all and blessings in the wonderful name of Jesus and God.
I thought I would give you my opinion on this matter for it is interesting.
I thought to respond to people named Cynic and Sky4it.
I think you have differences of things which are helpful if everyone is nice and friendly.
Sky4it I think you have valid point about this thing, it is kind of like following dot to dot to see the picture. While your point is very clear and I see point, I think some times your tone is a little harsh and could be unfriendly taken by some. I think Jesus would want you to be friendly and nice and then they would understand what you say better. So be careful about that and I think it will be better.
Cynic it does seem that there is problem with these things sky4it talk about, but I understand that you love so very much the wonderful name of our Lord Jesus. So you keep on with Jesus and things will get better.
I would like to know if you people are women or men so I could call you Mr. or Ms. I hope I did not say to much and thank you for the time to be helpful. Greetings and may Gods love be with you to all.
I note your point, and will try and be "nice and friendly" Sometimes its a bit problematic for me, I dont see that as always necessary for conversation but since you asked I will try. When my father was a kid, they through him in a ditch and ....ed in his face, (Sorry for bieng blunt) When I was a kid, they beat me up after school because my sister was mentally ill. So I dont remember things ever bieng real nice. Anyway since you asked I will work on it. I am a man, but there is no need to call me MR. I will try another post and see if it meets to your satifaction a little better.
Here is a new post that I think is nice and friendly. Anyway, this is kind of where I was going with this thread, and observations about Calvism. Enjoy:
The steering wheel in Calvinism, is Calvin’s foray into the foreknowledge of God. Because God possesses this trait, Calvin makes everything unconditional. All of the scriptures are viewed through this prism or microscope. Need some remission of sins? Turn the Calvinistic steering wheel over there to pick it up. Need some reconciliation? Turn the Cavinator mobile over there to pick that up too. Calvinistic thinking doesn’t like things which have people appropriate things by there own choice. (The will has been degraded) In Calvinistic thinking the promises of God become automatic objects picked up when you need them. It is very clear from scripture this is wrong thinking, otherwise why would scripture say, “Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering...... Hebrews 4:1" Calvinists argue with the above, saying that the concepts above Christians are entitled too (which they are). The problem is with the point in time in which they are applied. With Calvinists its all the time because you need them for your behavior. The bible clearly indicates otherwise when it says. “ WHEREIN IN TIME PAST, you walked according to the course of this world......... Ephesians 2:2.
In a nut shell, I am trying to show you what looks to me like the “black box”. Does anyone see the closed off learning process here? (Hence it’s looks like a cult)
horses u may not get this last part since you are new here because many people here where in a different organization years ago:
I made the statement that Calvin was more slippery than VPW. VPW claimed some supernatural revelation to get some of his building blocks. Calvin doesn’t do this. Calvin gets there through long philosophical arguments. He makes arguments that look pious but then jumps to statements based upon them, to reach his faulty conclusions. He talks about things like humility, wretched man concepts and such, then jumps to erroneous conclusions. That why I think this guy was so diabolical. (I could show you guys how he does this stuff, but then I have to quote a page of Calvin with the conclusion. I just don’t think anyone want to see all that.)
Welcome to the cafe Horseshead. I'm Abigail and you can call me Abigail, Abi, Abbey, almost anything but late for dinner. :)
I do want you to know, so you aren't surprised, this place isn't limited to Christians. While the majority here probably are Christians, you will find people of many faiths and of no faith here.
Down here in the basement doctrinal section we do try (though we don't always succeed) to keep discussions friendly. In the "upper rooms" things can get rather tense at times. Please try not to take that too personally, we all work through our "stuff" differently.
So how do you like your coffee? Do you think you will stay around for desert?
I too, welcome you to the Cafe. One thing you no doubt noticed 'round here is that discussions/posts do get heated, and basically (to a point) it is a healthy thing. (Notice I said, to a point)
One reason I say this is that a lot of us here used to take part in an organization called The Way Ministry. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, or were ever a part of it, but one of its characteristics was its near rabid insistance of its members to be 'like minded'. Ie., everybody to believe and say the same thing. ... Ie., kinda like a 'borg mentality'.
Well we all here have thrown that mindset off, and for good. And one of the results of that is that there are going to be disagreements posted here, and perhaps a lot of us take it to a fault. I know I have from time to time. ;)
S-o-o, you're might see a good number of the aforementioned heated posts, and while they might look to blow up into a knock-down, drag-em-out fight, ... over time, it blows over, people (more or less) make up, ..... and then head to the next fight.
But seriously, we're a good group of folks here, from all stripes in life. ... So, if you can endure the *FOOD FIGHTS* in some of the sections, I think you'll enjoy Greasespot overall.
I'd like to simply add one thing to what Garth said. I personally am old school. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. As such, the Word of God is the Word of Truth. I also think its a simple message to understand.
Still, some people say the same as I do above, and come to vastly different conclussions. So when Garth says, its a healthy thing to discuss differences it really is. Some of the people in here are some of the sharpest minds on the planet, because they are honest with themselves, a key component in my view of the understanding.
Ms. Abigail: Thank you for welcoming me to this nice place. Thank you also for offering me coffee and desert. I laugh when you said it because I see that they made the place like a cafe. It is so nice to be made to feel welcome. That tells me much about what a nice person you are.
Mr. Garth: thank you also for making me feel welcome. I do not know much about The Way. It does not bother me when people argue, because I have seen people argue to the point that they throw things at each other about the Bible. So I understand that there is need to have discussion to have people see the point. I always try and tell people my point and to keep them from fighting at least to much. Anyway thank you so very much for your information.
Mr. Sky4it: Thank you too for welcoming me. I thought you made good points in your things you said. It points me to going to God and I think that is important. I thought what you said was nice but perhaps not really overly friendly. I would simply add that you tell people you are saying these things to point them to God. Other than that it is beautiful what you said. If you want to run things by me, thank you so very much and I will help add a few things to help you . I hope you don't mind.
When people argue I like to give people timeouts so they can be refreshed. I give people first a 3 day timeout, then a 7 day timeout then a 5 month timeout. In this way people can stop argueing and be refreshed.
Thank you all so very much for letting me share things and goodbye for now.
Now there are things that people should not be tolerant of; immoral and unethical behavior towards others, unprovoked abuse towards others (the aforementioned persecution of heretics/blasphemers being but one prime example), and the like. But differing religious beliefs (so long as they do not clearly abuse others of their rights and dignities) do not fall within the category of things that people should not be tolerant of. ... Calvin clearly didn't accept that.
When I first came to the cafe here, I ran into a guy named (Invisible Dan) I believe who was really an expert on 1st century church history. I thought you would find it interesting that both he and I came to roughly the same conclusions on TWI, yet FROM VASTLY DIFFERENT RESOURCES. My reference point from your points above, are noted. I, personally, have a tendency to wander to the edge because anyone with a bible possessing such traits, looks a tad despotic or at least capable of it. :)
One other topic is noteworthy. Some would consider my view extreme. I would like to show you why I don't think it is. (First the website page I recited) Here is a quote from a Calvinistic preacher while preaching about predestination:
Perspectives on Predestination
By Barry Hofstetter
Web Link : www.reformed.org/calvinism/bh_predestination.html
Under caption: What its not,(First paragraph under) A Sermon by Barry in which he says,
"A famous televangelist was quoted as saying that Calvin had sent more people to hell based on "his" doctrine of predestination than anyone else in the history of the church."
This quote is from Calvinistic Barry himself. Obviously from the text of his own mouth, there were those who thought Calvinism in general was very extreme.
My simple point is that examining Calvinsim in this thread here, it isnt extreme at all.In fact, one
My simple point is that examining Calvinsim in this thread here, it isnt extreme at all.In fact, one
should consisder it mainstream to do so.
It should be examined, and I'm glad of that, ... so long as one does so with an independent & scrutinizing mind, one willing to question. Even if it goes as far as challenging what one believes.
yeah well I tell you pal, I like my pancakes only in the morning with some syrup, just not too much syrup please. Its a little hard to do the Watsui for the Sushi if you can follow. I was kinda wondering about your timeout policy, since I get a little to much spring in legs some days. Is it possible that if I blew it and got a timeout I could earn the timeout back? I dont want to hit to many buttons all in a row and be looking for a way back in after 5 months. I might have to test you too, to see if you can lift those timeouts or not. (Trying real hard)
Ok horseshead, I'll run this by you and do my best:
Revelation 2:14-16 ... But I have a few things against thee, because thou there them that hold the doctine of Baalim which taught Balac...... to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication...
..... Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Same doctrine, Old Test, New Test and future. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8 Past present and future that doctine holds place. The Unconditional component of the Calvin Canard, wants a timeless element for themselves in today and forever. I got a problem with that. Ah yeah here ( I am saying these things to point the Calvin canard to God)( you helped me with this part), but they gotta do the Repent part up there too.
Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for asking me, I am a Mr. I laugh about something you say with pancakes, you are very funny thank you.
Mr. Sky4it you may run things by me to show Bible anytime, I like reading good things. I thought your last post was most wonderful and refreshing. I see that you take my advice and point them to God, this is nice and friendly. I see that you are growing in friendliness. I am so happy I could help.
Mr. Sky4it, no one ever asked me if they could earn timeout back, thank you for asking. I see you want to grow in friendliness, so yes you can earn timeout back. Thank you so much for asking again. If someone get 3 day time out, then they could earn it back by being nice and friendly for 7 days. If someone get 2 timeouts in 7 day period, then they can earn a timeout back by bieng nice and friendly for 14 day in row. How does this sound because I want you to grow in niceness and friendliness? So please run more things by me so I can help you and you can help me ok, Mr. Sky4it?
You are growing so much now and that is good. I am growing too by reading and studing God.
Yeah well ok, there Mr. Horses. I tell you what, I try work on your dorkiness and you can work on my friendliness and niceness. By dork I simply mean someone unable to adapt to the circumstances or that you’re a tad clumsy in seeing some stuff. I think you need some help with this. So you have that friendliness meter going and I will have my dork meter working and we will to make each other better. You asked me how it sounds? Well I’d like to tell you pal, but we will work on it. I’m still wondering what your going to do with those “timeouts”, I want to see if you can lift one. Look Mr. Horses, when you tell people the truth and what your thinking, if they don’t like what your saying they arent going to think your nice and friendly anyhow. So stick that one in your mouth and chew on it for a while.
Need some more Calvin ok I’m here for the show:
Calvinism, essentially could work like a computer virus, moving in and taking over an entire church. To do so it would have to take hold on those running the place. The maker of the calvin credo, essentially he designed it for this purpose. The people that walk around with the contraption and the ideology, its so sophisticated they don’t even know how many things it can do.
Previously, it was mentioned that Calvinism is a practice. Here is what the practice is like: In a Calvinistic church, you would have two groups of people. One is an uninitiated and the other a initiated Calvinist. An uninitiated Calvinist does not perform the “trick.” They don’t really much understand what the practice is, they are by and large innocent bystanders. The secret club inside the group, is in fact the initiated Calvinist. The initiation ceremony would in all likelihood take place “afterhours”. They are actual practioners of the Unconditonal ceremony because its free. A lonely night of total depravity because one is totally unable is bound to happen for there are no restraints in the Calvin credo. It is by design by Calvin. It’s the way he and the practioners want it to be.
By the way, I am saying these things so that people can be pointed to God and Jesus.
Thank you so much for your information. I do not mind you helping me with my dork part of my life. Mr. Sky4it it is funny that you would say so because other people say things like that which are much worse about me than you ever do. I will help you be nice and friendly and you can help me see things better. Thank you so much for this. I see you are helping me like I am helping you so this is very good.
I see no need to give you timeout for what you say. I do understand that you are talking about sex and think you maybe should have a warning not to talk like that, because it is not nice. So this time I will just tell you that if you talk like that again I will give you a 3 day timeout. I do understand the point you are making to me about that. So that I would be careful about getting involved with Calvinism, but mostly to the extent only of what you say which is very good. You did say that you said these things to point them to God and Jesus and for that this is very good.
Please run your other thoughts by me as I would very much like to read more of what you have to say.
Thank you so very much for what you have to say regarding all of this. I so much like to study things like this so thank you for your help.
Something you don’t know much about, a slick card dealer named VPW used to say, “sincerity is no guarantee for truth” This statement turned out to be false. A person can prove it from the Bible. “Seek and you shall find” Matt: 7:7. If your seeking you have to be looking for something that you don’t have, thus you have to be sincere. (There is no black box ideology in Christianity) In fact, it has to open ended, otherwise you wouldn’t need to seek. Still, there are enough things given bible wise that one can say that about somethings people have to know. Ie (Ignorance is not an excuse for some behavior. (What I loathe about Calvinism is that they try to make that not so) I Corinth 5:5 describes the “unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”In fact, sincerity is a requirement, you have to have it with the truth if you want to get it right. You know how they say the hand is quicker than the eye? Well watch my hand now I am going to move it slow so you can see it. A person can be sincere and be nice and friendly. A person can be sincere and not necessarily be nice and friendly, because sometimes the truth is blunt. But there is a flip side to this. A person can be nice and friendly and not be sincere. (I am not saying that is you) For example, someone can be nice and friendly, and have a knife in the back of there hand to stick it in you. What we call those people are actors. Notice I didn’t say that was you, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere.
It’s always easier to give a short statement describing something and be right to the point. This is problematic though. You have to be blunt. That’s the one I like, because people don’t like long winded arguments. Now here’s a little pun fun. The long winded version in fact it is the “short” version. The short winded version if fact it is the “long” version. Don’t ask me three times to explain this or I might have to give you the short version, which is one you don’t like to hear.
So anyway here is some long winded stuff, which makes me huff and puff to get there (because that’s the one you want):
In book 2 of chapter 5 Section 3 under the subtext: Third absurdity borrowed from the words of Chrysotom Answer in the negative
In which Calvin says, “ .. Perseverance is the gift of God, which he does not lavish promiscuously on all, but imparts to whom he pleases.
This is a summation of Calvin of this topic. This summation is absurd. Perseverance is not a gift of God Right out of the dictionary it means to uphold, CONTINUE, CARRY ON, bear on. People do this by there will. This sounds stupid, but you go to work everyday to CONTINUE or CARRY ON your job. Right? If you told your boss you couldn’t CONTINUE until you got the gift, you would in fact be fired. (You can’t make this stuff up, this is the retards mind). Don’t trust me though, look up the bible concepts themselves. Look up close akin words like endure and strive. These concepts are closely akin to perseverance and Calvin thinks they are a “GIFT” Endure or endured is used quite a few times in the N.T. For brevity, I cite one example, Hebrews 6:15, which describes Abraham as “and so after that he had patiently endured obtained the promise.” It was Abraham who endured, out of his own choice. (This is what your reduced to with Calvin, describing obvious things because Calvinism is so retarded. ) Here’s the dynamics: Imagine if you told a Doctor you can’t CARRY ON at home until you get the gift. He would increase your dose of thorzine. Yet, oddly, this is how BIZZARE Calvin is, its that retarded.
I think what he means by that is that if I am "not nice and friendly", I will get a "timeout" or told not to post for 3 days so that I can get "refreshed". Wether or not that holds true for other people< I dunno????????
As some Calvinists have the "gift of perseverance", looks like this fellow has the "gift of timeouts".
I missed the free “Unconditonal ceremony” involving a “night of total depravity” that you say is held for initiated Calvinists that perform the “trick”.
I need to find some 32nd degree Calvinist I can talk to about this. I WAS ROBBED!!!
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GarthP2000
And Calvin and his mindset was the 'Honey Wagon'.
Mark Clarke
God doesn't cause the problems, but He does allow them, because He is God and He is in charge. That is comforting to me, because it assures me that nothing is beyond His control. But He doesn't allo
Cynic
My-my! What wild flailings at the doctrine of unconditional election. You have struck only a few “hyper-Calvinists” (e.g. some Primitive Baptists), who reputedly held election to work salvation in s
GarthP2000
Sky4it,
"Not tolerant", meaning has no tolerance towards, treats ill of, refuses to even consider, others who have a different point of view or belief system. And it can reach the point of doing the aforementioned harm/putting to death of those people. The non-tolerant individual can still be taught, but once the teaching/information he receives crosses or challenges what he believes in, the acceptance/consideration of the information then shuts down with no further consideration after that, and his behavior towards the information giver changes accordingly.
Now there are things that people should not be tolerant of; immoral and unethical behavior towards others, unprovoked abuse towards others (the aforementioned persecution of heretics/blasphemers being but one prime example), and the like. But differing religious beliefs (so long as they do not clearly abuse others of their rights and dignities) do not fall within the category of things that people should not be tolerant of. ... Calvin clearly didn't accept that.
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sky4it
Garth:
I think you took that first part of my post wrong. I didnt mean to say that for people like you and me historical records make accepting the gospel difficult. What I meant to say is that historical records wether talking about Calvin or the Christian crusades, present reasons for some that want nothing to do with the gospel. Thus, I was trying to reference the point that the Calvin historical record which you talked about, makes for problems greater than people just accepting Calvin. In fact they give reason for others to doubt Christianity all together.
Garth u said:
Then how would you suggest we reference our views, sky? Scientific material doesn't seem to fly to the religious side of the river either.
No I agree 100 percent with you Garth they are great reference points. The only problem is the doctinal reasons for the Christian crusades of those people who held them and Calvinists, have to be undressed in order for people to see the true aspects of the gospel. Sorry I didnt say that better. You also make a great point about science because people of the gospel have to counterpoint athiesm. People of the gospel, have to say so much, to make someone see it.
THUS WE NEED LOTS OF MINDS, LIKE YOURS AND MINE AND GUYS LIKE MICHAEL BEHE (a Doctor who is a athiesm refuter)AND MANY MORE :) Which begs a simple point. When people do things in Christs name that is wrong, it gets to be a MESS. Somehow I think thats what God meant by not using his name in vain.
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GarthP2000
Sky4it,
Sushi said that, not me.Methinks that you and I are more alike in what you are communicating here than you realize. :huh:
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sky4it
Garth and Sushi:
Garth: I didnt even see the name, my mistake tks
Sushi: see above post
sushi u said:
There's another possiblity here. Could it be, he wasn't interested in your particular version of God?
Actually, the guy is a pretty good friend of mine. When I talk to him I am not preaching, just interested in how people in that part of the world view Christianity, other faiths and such. I am not someone trying to tell like him what to do. He is an interesting man, having lived on the North Vietnam and China border in the former DMZ. He has some Chinese ancestory in him, so he can explain that part of the world like no one can. For example, I learned from him how Communist leaders treated Tibetan Budists in China under Mao and today. He also taught me how North Vietnamese Communists treat Buddahists and other religions. The stuff I mentioned here was only stuff we crossed after he TAUGHT me some rather fascinating things.
As far as your saying he wasn't interested in (my) version of God? I take that as an insult Sushi. The gospel isnt that diffiult to point out. The things I pointed out have stood for years in many Churches as basic stuff, except apparently with John Calvin. As far as this particular person goes? He's my freind, I dont insist he accept anything from me, but he doesn't get insulting if I talk about it either.
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horseshead
Dear people:
I am new here at your Christian webpage. Someone told me to read this and I did. Greetings to all and blessings in the wonderful name of Jesus and God.
I thought I would give you my opinion on this matter for it is interesting.
I thought to respond to people named Cynic and Sky4it.
I think you have differences of things which are helpful if everyone is nice and friendly.
Sky4it I think you have valid point about this thing, it is kind of like following dot to dot to see the picture. While your point is very clear and I see point, I think some times your tone is a little harsh and could be unfriendly taken by some. I think Jesus would want you to be friendly and nice and then they would understand what you say better. So be careful about that and I think it will be better.
Cynic it does seem that there is problem with these things sky4it talk about, but I understand that you love so very much the wonderful name of our Lord Jesus. So you keep on with Jesus and things will get better.
I would like to know if you people are women or men so I could call you Mr. or Ms. I hope I did not say to much and thank you for the time to be helpful. Greetings and may Gods love be with you to all.
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sky4it
horses:
Welcome to the forum gathering here.
I note your point, and will try and be "nice and friendly" Sometimes its a bit problematic for me, I dont see that as always necessary for conversation but since you asked I will try. When my father was a kid, they through him in a ditch and ....ed in his face, (Sorry for bieng blunt) When I was a kid, they beat me up after school because my sister was mentally ill. So I dont remember things ever bieng real nice. Anyway since you asked I will work on it. I am a man, but there is no need to call me MR. I will try another post and see if it meets to your satifaction a little better.
Regards
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sky4it
horses:
Here is a new post that I think is nice and friendly. Anyway, this is kind of where I was going with this thread, and observations about Calvism. Enjoy:
The steering wheel in Calvinism, is Calvin’s foray into the foreknowledge of God. Because God possesses this trait, Calvin makes everything unconditional. All of the scriptures are viewed through this prism or microscope. Need some remission of sins? Turn the Calvinistic steering wheel over there to pick it up. Need some reconciliation? Turn the Cavinator mobile over there to pick that up too. Calvinistic thinking doesn’t like things which have people appropriate things by there own choice. (The will has been degraded) In Calvinistic thinking the promises of God become automatic objects picked up when you need them. It is very clear from scripture this is wrong thinking, otherwise why would scripture say, “Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering...... Hebrews 4:1" Calvinists argue with the above, saying that the concepts above Christians are entitled too (which they are). The problem is with the point in time in which they are applied. With Calvinists its all the time because you need them for your behavior. The bible clearly indicates otherwise when it says. “ WHEREIN IN TIME PAST, you walked according to the course of this world......... Ephesians 2:2.
In a nut shell, I am trying to show you what looks to me like the “black box”. Does anyone see the closed off learning process here? (Hence it’s looks like a cult)
horses u may not get this last part since you are new here because many people here where in a different organization years ago:
I made the statement that Calvin was more slippery than VPW. VPW claimed some supernatural revelation to get some of his building blocks. Calvin doesn’t do this. Calvin gets there through long philosophical arguments. He makes arguments that look pious but then jumps to statements based upon them, to reach his faulty conclusions. He talks about things like humility, wretched man concepts and such, then jumps to erroneous conclusions. That why I think this guy was so diabolical. (I could show you guys how he does this stuff, but then I have to quote a page of Calvin with the conclusion. I just don’t think anyone want to see all that.)
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Abigail
Welcome to the cafe Horseshead. I'm Abigail and you can call me Abigail, Abi, Abbey, almost anything but late for dinner. :)
I do want you to know, so you aren't surprised, this place isn't limited to Christians. While the majority here probably are Christians, you will find people of many faiths and of no faith here.
Down here in the basement doctrinal section we do try (though we don't always succeed) to keep discussions friendly. In the "upper rooms" things can get rather tense at times. Please try not to take that too personally, we all work through our "stuff" differently.
So how do you like your coffee? Do you think you will stay around for desert?
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GarthP2000
Horsehead,
I too, welcome you to the Cafe. One thing you no doubt noticed 'round here is that discussions/posts do get heated, and basically (to a point) it is a healthy thing. (Notice I said, to a point)
One reason I say this is that a lot of us here used to take part in an organization called The Way Ministry. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, or were ever a part of it, but one of its characteristics was its near rabid insistance of its members to be 'like minded'. Ie., everybody to believe and say the same thing. ... Ie., kinda like a 'borg mentality'.
Well we all here have thrown that mindset off, and for good. And one of the results of that is that there are going to be disagreements posted here, and perhaps a lot of us take it to a fault. I know I have from time to time. ;)
S-o-o, you're might see a good number of the aforementioned heated posts, and while they might look to blow up into a knock-down, drag-em-out fight, ... over time, it blows over, people (more or less) make up, ..... and then head to the next fight.
But seriously, we're a good group of folks here, from all stripes in life. ... So, if you can endure the *FOOD FIGHTS* in some of the sections, I think you'll enjoy Greasespot overall.
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sky4it
horses:
I'd like to simply add one thing to what Garth said. I personally am old school. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. As such, the Word of God is the Word of Truth. I also think its a simple message to understand.
Still, some people say the same as I do above, and come to vastly different conclussions. So when Garth says, its a healthy thing to discuss differences it really is. Some of the people in here are some of the sharpest minds on the planet, because they are honest with themselves, a key component in my view of the understanding.
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cman
What's a Christian?
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horseshead
Ms. Abigail: Thank you for welcoming me to this nice place. Thank you also for offering me coffee and desert. I laugh when you said it because I see that they made the place like a cafe. It is so nice to be made to feel welcome. That tells me much about what a nice person you are.
Mr. Garth: thank you also for making me feel welcome. I do not know much about The Way. It does not bother me when people argue, because I have seen people argue to the point that they throw things at each other about the Bible. So I understand that there is need to have discussion to have people see the point. I always try and tell people my point and to keep them from fighting at least to much. Anyway thank you so very much for your information.
Mr. Sky4it: Thank you too for welcoming me. I thought you made good points in your things you said. It points me to going to God and I think that is important. I thought what you said was nice but perhaps not really overly friendly. I would simply add that you tell people you are saying these things to point them to God. Other than that it is beautiful what you said. If you want to run things by me, thank you so very much and I will help add a few things to help you . I hope you don't mind.
When people argue I like to give people timeouts so they can be refreshed. I give people first a 3 day timeout, then a 7 day timeout then a 5 month timeout. In this way people can stop argueing and be refreshed.
Thank you all so very much for letting me share things and goodbye for now.
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sky4it
Garth:
U said:
Now there are things that people should not be tolerant of; immoral and unethical behavior towards others, unprovoked abuse towards others (the aforementioned persecution of heretics/blasphemers being but one prime example), and the like. But differing religious beliefs (so long as they do not clearly abuse others of their rights and dignities) do not fall within the category of things that people should not be tolerant of. ... Calvin clearly didn't accept that.
When I first came to the cafe here, I ran into a guy named (Invisible Dan) I believe who was really an expert on 1st century church history. I thought you would find it interesting that both he and I came to roughly the same conclusions on TWI, yet FROM VASTLY DIFFERENT RESOURCES. My reference point from your points above, are noted. I, personally, have a tendency to wander to the edge because anyone with a bible possessing such traits, looks a tad despotic or at least capable of it. :)
One other topic is noteworthy. Some would consider my view extreme. I would like to show you why I don't think it is. (First the website page I recited) Here is a quote from a Calvinistic preacher while preaching about predestination:
Perspectives on Predestination
By Barry Hofstetter
Web Link : www.reformed.org/calvinism/bh_predestination.html
Under caption: What its not,(First paragraph under) A Sermon by Barry in which he says,
"A famous televangelist was quoted as saying that Calvin had sent more people to hell based on "his" doctrine of predestination than anyone else in the history of the church."
This quote is from Calvinistic Barry himself. Obviously from the text of his own mouth, there were those who thought Calvinism in general was very extreme.
My simple point is that examining Calvinsim in this thread here, it isnt extreme at all.In fact, one
should consisder it mainstream to do so.
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GarthP2000
It should be examined, and I'm glad of that, ... so long as one does so with an independent & scrutinizing mind, one willing to question. Even if it goes as far as challenging what one believes.
... and that is difficult for a lot of people.
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sky4it
Horseshead: (you Mr or Ms)
yeah well I tell you pal, I like my pancakes only in the morning with some syrup, just not too much syrup please. Its a little hard to do the Watsui for the Sushi if you can follow. I was kinda wondering about your timeout policy, since I get a little to much spring in legs some days. Is it possible that if I blew it and got a timeout I could earn the timeout back? I dont want to hit to many buttons all in a row and be looking for a way back in after 5 months. I might have to test you too, to see if you can lift those timeouts or not. (Trying real hard)
Ok horseshead, I'll run this by you and do my best:
Revelation 2:14-16 ... But I have a few things against thee, because thou there them that hold the doctine of Baalim which taught Balac...... to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication...
..... Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Same doctrine, Old Test, New Test and future. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8 Past present and future that doctine holds place. The Unconditional component of the Calvin Canard, wants a timeless element for themselves in today and forever. I got a problem with that. Ah yeah here ( I am saying these things to point the Calvin canard to God)( you helped me with this part), but they gotta do the Repent part up there too.
there how does that work for you pal?
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horseshead
Mr. Sky4it:
Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for asking me, I am a Mr. I laugh about something you say with pancakes, you are very funny thank you.
Mr. Sky4it you may run things by me to show Bible anytime, I like reading good things. I thought your last post was most wonderful and refreshing. I see that you take my advice and point them to God, this is nice and friendly. I see that you are growing in friendliness. I am so happy I could help.
Mr. Sky4it, no one ever asked me if they could earn timeout back, thank you for asking. I see you want to grow in friendliness, so yes you can earn timeout back. Thank you so much for asking again. If someone get 3 day time out, then they could earn it back by being nice and friendly for 7 days. If someone get 2 timeouts in 7 day period, then they can earn a timeout back by bieng nice and friendly for 14 day in row. How does this sound because I want you to grow in niceness and friendliness? So please run more things by me so I can help you and you can help me ok, Mr. Sky4it?
You are growing so much now and that is good. I am growing too by reading and studing God.
Thanks to all for letting me share with you.
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sky4it
Yeah well ok, there Mr. Horses. I tell you what, I try work on your dorkiness and you can work on my friendliness and niceness. By dork I simply mean someone unable to adapt to the circumstances or that you’re a tad clumsy in seeing some stuff. I think you need some help with this. So you have that friendliness meter going and I will have my dork meter working and we will to make each other better. You asked me how it sounds? Well I’d like to tell you pal, but we will work on it. I’m still wondering what your going to do with those “timeouts”, I want to see if you can lift one. Look Mr. Horses, when you tell people the truth and what your thinking, if they don’t like what your saying they arent going to think your nice and friendly anyhow. So stick that one in your mouth and chew on it for a while.
Need some more Calvin ok I’m here for the show:
Calvinism, essentially could work like a computer virus, moving in and taking over an entire church. To do so it would have to take hold on those running the place. The maker of the calvin credo, essentially he designed it for this purpose. The people that walk around with the contraption and the ideology, its so sophisticated they don’t even know how many things it can do.
Previously, it was mentioned that Calvinism is a practice. Here is what the practice is like: In a Calvinistic church, you would have two groups of people. One is an uninitiated and the other a initiated Calvinist. An uninitiated Calvinist does not perform the “trick.” They don’t really much understand what the practice is, they are by and large innocent bystanders. The secret club inside the group, is in fact the initiated Calvinist. The initiation ceremony would in all likelihood take place “afterhours”. They are actual practioners of the Unconditonal ceremony because its free. A lonely night of total depravity because one is totally unable is bound to happen for there are no restraints in the Calvin credo. It is by design by Calvin. It’s the way he and the practioners want it to be.
By the way, I am saying these things so that people can be pointed to God and Jesus.
How does this one work for you Mr. Horses?
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horseshead
Dear Mr. Sky4it:
Thank you so much for your information. I do not mind you helping me with my dork part of my life. Mr. Sky4it it is funny that you would say so because other people say things like that which are much worse about me than you ever do. I will help you be nice and friendly and you can help me see things better. Thank you so much for this. I see you are helping me like I am helping you so this is very good.
I see no need to give you timeout for what you say. I do understand that you are talking about sex and think you maybe should have a warning not to talk like that, because it is not nice. So this time I will just tell you that if you talk like that again I will give you a 3 day timeout. I do understand the point you are making to me about that. So that I would be careful about getting involved with Calvinism, but mostly to the extent only of what you say which is very good. You did say that you said these things to point them to God and Jesus and for that this is very good.
Please run your other thoughts by me as I would very much like to read more of what you have to say.
Thank you so very much for what you have to say regarding all of this. I so much like to study things like this so thank you for your help.
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sky4it
yeah ok Mr Horse,
Something you don’t know much about, a slick card dealer named VPW used to say, “sincerity is no guarantee for truth” This statement turned out to be false. A person can prove it from the Bible. “Seek and you shall find” Matt: 7:7. If your seeking you have to be looking for something that you don’t have, thus you have to be sincere. (There is no black box ideology in Christianity) In fact, it has to open ended, otherwise you wouldn’t need to seek. Still, there are enough things given bible wise that one can say that about somethings people have to know. Ie (Ignorance is not an excuse for some behavior. (What I loathe about Calvinism is that they try to make that not so) I Corinth 5:5 describes the “unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”In fact, sincerity is a requirement, you have to have it with the truth if you want to get it right. You know how they say the hand is quicker than the eye? Well watch my hand now I am going to move it slow so you can see it. A person can be sincere and be nice and friendly. A person can be sincere and not necessarily be nice and friendly, because sometimes the truth is blunt. But there is a flip side to this. A person can be nice and friendly and not be sincere. (I am not saying that is you) For example, someone can be nice and friendly, and have a knife in the back of there hand to stick it in you. What we call those people are actors. Notice I didn’t say that was you, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere.
It’s always easier to give a short statement describing something and be right to the point. This is problematic though. You have to be blunt. That’s the one I like, because people don’t like long winded arguments. Now here’s a little pun fun. The long winded version in fact it is the “short” version. The short winded version if fact it is the “long” version. Don’t ask me three times to explain this or I might have to give you the short version, which is one you don’t like to hear.
So anyway here is some long winded stuff, which makes me huff and puff to get there (because that’s the one you want):
In book 2 of chapter 5 Section 3 under the subtext: Third absurdity borrowed from the words of Chrysotom Answer in the negative
Weblink: http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?...oks/institutes/
In which Calvin says, “ .. Perseverance is the gift of God, which he does not lavish promiscuously on all, but imparts to whom he pleases.
This is a summation of Calvin of this topic. This summation is absurd. Perseverance is not a gift of God Right out of the dictionary it means to uphold, CONTINUE, CARRY ON, bear on. People do this by there will. This sounds stupid, but you go to work everyday to CONTINUE or CARRY ON your job. Right? If you told your boss you couldn’t CONTINUE until you got the gift, you would in fact be fired. (You can’t make this stuff up, this is the retards mind). Don’t trust me though, look up the bible concepts themselves. Look up close akin words like endure and strive. These concepts are closely akin to perseverance and Calvin thinks they are a “GIFT” Endure or endured is used quite a few times in the N.T. For brevity, I cite one example, Hebrews 6:15, which describes Abraham as “and so after that he had patiently endured obtained the promise.” It was Abraham who endured, out of his own choice. (This is what your reduced to with Calvin, describing obvious things because Calvinism is so retarded. ) Here’s the dynamics: Imagine if you told a Doctor you can’t CARRY ON at home until you get the gift. He would increase your dose of thorzine. Yet, oddly, this is how BIZZARE Calvin is, its that retarded.
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cman
What's a 'timeout' horsehead?
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sky4it
Cman:
I think what he means by that is that if I am "not nice and friendly", I will get a "timeout" or told not to post for 3 days so that I can get "refreshed". Wether or not that holds true for other people< I dunno????????
As some Calvinists have the "gift of perseverance", looks like this fellow has the "gift of timeouts".
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cman
hmmm...into controlling people he seems to be
that's not nice :)
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sky4it
cman:
lmao, yeah well I guess these days I'll talk to whoever wants to control freak or not.
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Cynic
Sky4it,
Is "horseshead" your sock puppet?
By the way,
I missed the free “Unconditonal ceremony” involving a “night of total depravity” that you say is held for initiated Calvinists that perform the “trick”.
I need to find some 32nd degree Calvinist I can talk to about this. I WAS ROBBED!!!
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