Hi Shifra. Yes, VP told me personally not to worry about the Book of Revelation.
The Book of Revelation is the fullfillment of the prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel - instead of Daniel's prophecies being closed for his time, they are now opened and understood.
I have read many books on Revelation, but "Revelation" by Donald Barnhouse is the best I've ever read (available on Amazon). He will show exactly from Daniel how the prophecies he was given are fullfilled in the "last days."
Interesting VP didn't want us to read Revelation or ever deal with Daniel.
Revelation says right there, its "written to the church" and is written for our comfort and to know what is to come. I think its important for us to understand - and it is understandable now.
I haven't read or done much reading on commentaries regarding Daniel, Ezekiel or Revelation, but I do suspect that it's fascinating. I know how thrilled I was to read the Gnostic Gospels, The Origin of Satan and other TWI verboten material.
It's been very enlightening to read and study things without TWI blinders on and amazing how ignorant we were given how wise we were told and believed we were. :ph34r:
I do hope you'll share what you're learning with us.
Thanks for the book recommendation Sunesis. I am always looking for new and interesting things to read. And this particular topic is most intriguing.
I do remember being taught not to bother with Revelations as it wasnt written to us anyway. I was further taught that all we needed to know as believers was written in Thessalonians. Once upon a time I half believed that drivel, (the part about Thessalonians) and worse yet I taught it as gospel. But I am no longer a child and can clearly see that Revelations is meant to be read and understood just like the rest of the Bible.
One guy who is always interesting to listen too and who I like is Jack VanImpe.
Jack has an incredible mind, has most sciptures memorized, and is a rather interesting guy to listen too.
I made the arguement that most of Daniel is unfullfilled prophecy once and got bashed. Most scholars agree that the Little Horn of the Daniel, is the man they call the AntiChrist. Some of the visions of Daniel talk about a fight between the Persian and Greek empires , thus some scholars believe this was the matter of Alexander the Great and his wars. While I tend to agree with this somewhat,( I think that it may have some dual application also) I think that vision is starting point of the rest of the book being prophetic about future events and no doubt must have overlap with the book of Revelation. From Chapter 7 on, it looks as if it is unfullfilled prophecy, tho even guys like EW Bullinger have attempted to fill in some of the blanks already. This is not however all inclusive. There appears to be parts of the first vision of Daniel that he gave to King Nebanezz. which also have futuristic thoughts.
It is very fascinating, especially the part about the goat and ram colliding, and the little horn rising out of this situation.
I think you might like VanImpe, he tries to sort out things and does a good job, still I think Jack would even say about some of it he is simply speculating.
The study of the "end times" is a field all in itself.
If one wants to learn the biblical "doctrine" - whether or not they agree with it, this site is the best I've found on the net so far. About a year ago, I really wanted to start understanding it. This site has some very good charts and comparisons on the front page (scroll down), that helps see things a bit easier. Then, go to their articles page.
They have some excellent writings on Daniel and how his prophecies fit today. I occassionally go to their forums too, a lot of questions are discussed. I have learned alot from this site (plus others).
I peruse this site (once every couple of months) to see if there are new articles, but it helped put the "timeline" together for me.
Whether you agree or disagree with escatology, as end times studies are called, it is interesting to know if one is interested.
Sky, does Van Impe have a specific book that you would recommend or maybe a website?
Sunesis and Belle, thanks for the other resources you mentioned.
Don't you think it's weird that there were books in the Bible that we were told to skip over? I just figure there must be some lessons in these books that might have freed us from TWI a little sooner. Or maybe some doctrinal issues that might have put VP's teachings in question. Even the gospels were minimized.
Anyhow, Daniel is short and easy to read, if anybody out there is interested in attempting their own "take" on this book. I just keep wondering if some of it doesn't pertain to our current war.
Sky, does Van Impe have a specific book that you would recommend or maybe a website?
I have never read any of his books Shifra. I just occasionally listen to him on TV and he always talks on Biblical prophecy. His wife Roxella provides a pretty good change up. Jack and Roxella are two of the few people that are genuinely interesting to listen too. Jack has an astonishing ability to recite scripture and Roxella provides sort of the play by play. Of the all the televangelists (Jack really isnt one) I have always thought they are two of the few people that are really suberb.
In my area they are on TV at 11:30 central time on Sunday nite.
I thought I would kind of run down my thoughts for you on this stuff, because there is considerable disagreement amongst scholars on some of these topics. For example, John Hagee teaches that the white horse of the 4 horse apocolypse is the Anti-Christ, yet other scholars say the white horse and rider is Jesus Christ. Quite a difference no? In Revelation it talks about seals and the only one able to open the seals is "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" The skinny is if he is the only one who can do it why speculate about it because it isnt opened yet.
I think you would also find it interesting that for years (and you have probably heard this) Jack Van Impe and others have speculated that the Little Horn aka(Anti Christ) comes from a European 10 nation conglomerate. (I happen to disagree with this view in part, and I think Jack might also too because the European Common Union is greater than 10 nations) You might also find it interesting that the term Anti-Christ is a bit of a misnomer when applied to ONLY one person, because I John says there are many anti-Christs that are gone out into the world. Still the term Anti-Christ fits the Little Horn and his followers.
Here is my speculation on it. I think that we are getting close. It appears from scripture that the Little Horn will arise out of some sort of economic cataclymic event, perhaps some great attack and have great answers for the world climate of economics. He wont have been given right away "great power" but will come with 1,2 or 3 nations having solutions and speaking great things. What nations are these? I would suggest in my best guess the following: Greece, the Netherlands and perhaps a Baltic or small eastern european or asian country. Why countries like this? Because he appears to come with small or economically small beginnings, not from a large economic powerhouse. From this he consolidates power to 10 nations. Interestingly, that the Little Horn will prevail against the saints for a time.
Lastly, most people speculate and there are pre-tribulation rapture people and post tribulation rapture people. Yet when you study the bible, there seems to be a great deal of saints and people who resist the Little Horn. It is possible and likely that those "raptured" may be few in number. I base that upon Matthew where Jesus said when he returns will the Son of Man find faith here on earth. Some other useful things. Some people feel the "bear" is Russia, the "dragon" China and the woman with the moon under her feet the United States; the leopard other 3rd world countries. (Lepoards are nomadic) Kind of makes sense from the standpoint each symbol is some what symbolic of each countries emblems.
Anyway, I , like you am fasinated by the topic and thought to give you my take on it.
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Sunesis
Hi Shifra. Yes, VP told me personally not to worry about the Book of Revelation.
The Book of Revelation is the fullfillment of the prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel - instead of Daniel's prophecies being closed for his time, they are now opened and understood.
I have read many books on Revelation, but "Revelation" by Donald Barnhouse is the best I've ever read (available on Amazon). He will show exactly from Daniel how the prophecies he was given are fullfilled in the "last days."
Interesting VP didn't want us to read Revelation or ever deal with Daniel.
Revelation says right there, its "written to the church" and is written for our comfort and to know what is to come. I think its important for us to understand - and it is understandable now.
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Belle
I haven't read or done much reading on commentaries regarding Daniel, Ezekiel or Revelation, but I do suspect that it's fascinating. I know how thrilled I was to read the Gnostic Gospels, The Origin of Satan and other TWI verboten material.
It's been very enlightening to read and study things without TWI blinders on and amazing how ignorant we were given how wise we were told and believed we were. :ph34r:
I do hope you'll share what you're learning with us.
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Eyesopen
Thanks for the book recommendation Sunesis. I am always looking for new and interesting things to read. And this particular topic is most intriguing.
I do remember being taught not to bother with Revelations as it wasnt written to us anyway. I was further taught that all we needed to know as believers was written in Thessalonians. Once upon a time I half believed that drivel, (the part about Thessalonians) and worse yet I taught it as gospel. But I am no longer a child and can clearly see that Revelations is meant to be read and understood just like the rest of the Bible.
Heya Belle! Whatsup?
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sky4it
Shifira:
Great questions and comments.
One guy who is always interesting to listen too and who I like is Jack VanImpe.
Jack has an incredible mind, has most sciptures memorized, and is a rather interesting guy to listen too.
I made the arguement that most of Daniel is unfullfilled prophecy once and got bashed. Most scholars agree that the Little Horn of the Daniel, is the man they call the AntiChrist. Some of the visions of Daniel talk about a fight between the Persian and Greek empires , thus some scholars believe this was the matter of Alexander the Great and his wars. While I tend to agree with this somewhat,( I think that it may have some dual application also) I think that vision is starting point of the rest of the book being prophetic about future events and no doubt must have overlap with the book of Revelation. From Chapter 7 on, it looks as if it is unfullfilled prophecy, tho even guys like EW Bullinger have attempted to fill in some of the blanks already. This is not however all inclusive. There appears to be parts of the first vision of Daniel that he gave to King Nebanezz. which also have futuristic thoughts.
It is very fascinating, especially the part about the goat and ram colliding, and the little horn rising out of this situation.
I think you might like VanImpe, he tries to sort out things and does a good job, still I think Jack would even say about some of it he is simply speculating.
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Sunesis
The study of the "end times" is a field all in itself.
If one wants to learn the biblical "doctrine" - whether or not they agree with it, this site is the best I've found on the net so far. About a year ago, I really wanted to start understanding it. This site has some very good charts and comparisons on the front page (scroll down), that helps see things a bit easier. Then, go to their articles page.
They have some excellent writings on Daniel and how his prophecies fit today. I occassionally go to their forums too, a lot of questions are discussed. I have learned alot from this site (plus others).
I peruse this site (once every couple of months) to see if there are new articles, but it helped put the "timeline" together for me.
Whether you agree or disagree with escatology, as end times studies are called, it is interesting to know if one is interested.
http://www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/whypretrib.shtml
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Shifra
Sky, does Van Impe have a specific book that you would recommend or maybe a website?
Sunesis and Belle, thanks for the other resources you mentioned.
Don't you think it's weird that there were books in the Bible that we were told to skip over? I just figure there must be some lessons in these books that might have freed us from TWI a little sooner. Or maybe some doctrinal issues that might have put VP's teachings in question. Even the gospels were minimized.
Anyhow, Daniel is short and easy to read, if anybody out there is interested in attempting their own "take" on this book. I just keep wondering if some of it doesn't pertain to our current war.
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sky4it
I have never read any of his books Shifra. I just occasionally listen to him on TV and he always talks on Biblical prophecy. His wife Roxella provides a pretty good change up. Jack and Roxella are two of the few people that are genuinely interesting to listen too. Jack has an astonishing ability to recite scripture and Roxella provides sort of the play by play. Of the all the televangelists (Jack really isnt one) I have always thought they are two of the few people that are really suberb.
In my area they are on TV at 11:30 central time on Sunday nite.
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sky4it
Shifra:
(see above also)
I thought I would kind of run down my thoughts for you on this stuff, because there is considerable disagreement amongst scholars on some of these topics. For example, John Hagee teaches that the white horse of the 4 horse apocolypse is the Anti-Christ, yet other scholars say the white horse and rider is Jesus Christ. Quite a difference no? In Revelation it talks about seals and the only one able to open the seals is "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" The skinny is if he is the only one who can do it why speculate about it because it isnt opened yet.
I think you would also find it interesting that for years (and you have probably heard this) Jack Van Impe and others have speculated that the Little Horn aka(Anti Christ) comes from a European 10 nation conglomerate. (I happen to disagree with this view in part, and I think Jack might also too because the European Common Union is greater than 10 nations) You might also find it interesting that the term Anti-Christ is a bit of a misnomer when applied to ONLY one person, because I John says there are many anti-Christs that are gone out into the world. Still the term Anti-Christ fits the Little Horn and his followers.
Here is my speculation on it. I think that we are getting close. It appears from scripture that the Little Horn will arise out of some sort of economic cataclymic event, perhaps some great attack and have great answers for the world climate of economics. He wont have been given right away "great power" but will come with 1,2 or 3 nations having solutions and speaking great things. What nations are these? I would suggest in my best guess the following: Greece, the Netherlands and perhaps a Baltic or small eastern european or asian country. Why countries like this? Because he appears to come with small or economically small beginnings, not from a large economic powerhouse. From this he consolidates power to 10 nations. Interestingly, that the Little Horn will prevail against the saints for a time.
Lastly, most people speculate and there are pre-tribulation rapture people and post tribulation rapture people. Yet when you study the bible, there seems to be a great deal of saints and people who resist the Little Horn. It is possible and likely that those "raptured" may be few in number. I base that upon Matthew where Jesus said when he returns will the Son of Man find faith here on earth. Some other useful things. Some people feel the "bear" is Russia, the "dragon" China and the woman with the moon under her feet the United States; the leopard other 3rd world countries. (Lepoards are nomadic) Kind of makes sense from the standpoint each symbol is some what symbolic of each countries emblems.
Anyway, I , like you am fasinated by the topic and thought to give you my take on it.
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Twinky
Okay, who's been reading Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind"? :)
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