I think wolf has a valid point...Who knows where these legitimate christians and thier vibrant ministries would have gone had they not been wrestled off track by the deceiver wierwille?
Sure we THOUGHT we were serving God...but our efforts went to sate the sick lusts of wierwille...our tithe bought toys for an immoral man, supported his immoral habits and paid for his immoral mistakes hush money, abortions etc..our witnessing brought young women to his lair to be abused, families were placed under his influence to be torn asunder, children put under the power of pedophiles and abusers....sure we all THOUGHT we were serving God, sure we were selfless in our efforts...but look who the heck was actually served...look at the *fruit* the broken lives, the misery, the actual death...that is a pretty ugly thing to lay at the feet of God.
That is why deception is CALLED deception...DUH We are deceived into doing what someone ELSE wants CONTRARY to our own bests interests :(
there are many discernable spectrums of development in individual and group behavior and perspectives
which includes spectrums of values, morals, depths and span of care and concern, intelligences, etc...
but until we find a way to include these kinds of possibilities into such conversations
i feel we are going to continue to be stuck in flattened patterns of reasoning that will not produce a complex enough map to disclose what is actually a complex terrain ("wilderness")
causing us to go round and round in dead-end conversations about cults, cultures and religion, religions, and all the thousands of inter-religious histories of the world
and by "complex"...i am speaking of counting to 7 or so ("eating of a tree/system of life"), versus merely counting to 2 all the time ("eating of a tree/system of good or evil")
of course...such a conversation will also likely expose us all to our selves to some greater depths or degrees
It may not make sense to you Todd, but that doesn`t negate the value of the discussion here. In understanding the spiritually putrid nature of that in which we were involved....we are freed from the mental bonds that kept us in that dark little box of twi thinking.
We become free to begin learning and growing, blossoming once we discard the narrow minded arrogance aquired and sustained by twi doctrine.
and by "complex"...i am speaking of counting to 7 or so ("eating of a tree/system of life"), versus merely counting to 2 all the time ("eating of a tree/system of good or evil")
of course...such a conversation will also likely expose us all to our selves to some greater depths or degrees
just sayin...
I *think* I understand what you're saying SirG.
We've all seen how threads dealing with difficult subjects go. A topic gets started, bantered about a bit, and then Party A decides it doesn't like where it's going.
*Press* there goes a button.
Party B responds to the button being pushed (Danger! Danger! Evacuate the area until Party A has been dealt with.) *Press* there goes another button.
Now Party A is ticked and retorts back.
Button pushing, arms-a-flailing, before you know it a food fight has ensued and no one remembers the original topic.
"Lack of Information" served ala "Sloppy Joe" - at it's finest. Sure there's information to be found, but it has to be picked out of hair and clothing and off the walls and reassembled before it's even recognizable, much less palatable.
Perhaps (BIG perhaps here) SirG is suggesting PAUSING before pressing the button. Let the emotions and knee jerk reactions simmer just a bit instead of turning the heat up to bring a full boil.
Maybe it's like taking the ball out of the pinball machine and letting it roll about freely instead of always relying on the same old bumpers and flippers to get it to it's destination.
Though, knowing SirG as I've come to know him (not much, admittedly) he might suggest a brand new destination in yet another game.
So to go back to the original topic....
Can you honestly tell me if twi WAS normal ...as has been maintained....that brainwashing or extreme manipulation of some sort wasn`t employed.........if those of us who suffered really were personally at fault or to blame....
Why interaction with twi be so much more detrimental than the dozens of other organizations and activities that I have participated in in this life???
Why was I so mentally weak, handicapped (I have been told)... only during only that particular decade?
Why did I allow myself to be subjected to outrageous treatment, abuses and cruelty that I have never put up with before nor since???
Why did I comply with every order and edict issued, in spite of my personal misgivings, preferences, or opinions?
What about involvement in twi made me so weak and spineless when following it`s doctrines, (WHICH incidently were supposed to make me more than a conquerer...spiritually strong....enjoy abundance..etc)?
Why have the horrors suffered in twi, the manipulation, the deceit, that actions taken, had such great impact that I am still struggling, and haunted by after 15 years??
What is it about twi made us vulnerable and willing to endure the horror?
Why did so many people die following instructions?
Why were reputations savaged, lives destroyed?
Why were families torn apart?
Why were children cast to the streets?
Why were ailing family blamed, shunned and ignored?
Why is it that the actions enforced in twi still eat at so many of us 20 years later sad.:(
Why is it that in a life time of experiences with a variety of people, the only time that I tolerated this treatment was during the decade spent in twi.
I think that these questions... these "I" questions beg to be answered on a person-by-person basis. Not everyone fits this scenario so there are no one-size-fits-all answers. Plenty of room to speculate and toss around personal stories and find answers in the commonness of experience, but no one answer will do.
I don`t think TWI was your run of the mill garden variety religious group, as has been intimated by those who chose to blame the rest of us for our stupidity, or lack of compassion and understanding...who chose to call us psychotic liars, perpetually whining victims....indulging in vpm (victim mentality propoganda) or we just didn`t master the right teachings.......else we could have walked away from it just like we did every other activity that we have taken up and then grown weary of.
I think there was a deeper reason why we tolerated the abuse, the manipulation, that we allowed ourselves to be intimidated and stolen from. Why we stayed when things got bad...
To minimalize what happened to us, to try to make it seem not so bad, or that it was our fault, to act like there is something wrong because we won`t shut up, or just forgive and forget...that other groups have similar problems...I think is not looking at the whole picture as to why we were vulnerable.
I think that twi was religion - on steroids. The good, bad, and weird were all hyped up. It makes sense in a way that so much emotion runs around these boards.
To minimalize any experience is not right, in my book anyway.
The truth is that even if every other religion out there is abusive and wrong, it doesn't make any of the abuse any less abusive. It only makes it more common. One could argue that it makes it even MORE wrong because it's become accepted as a norm.
That's like the abusive husband pointing to his wife after hitting her and saying, "Hey, be thankful I didn't do like JimBob down the street did to his wife. He cut her into little pieces after he hit her."
The deeper reason.... that will be personal as well, since not everyone stayed. Not everyone saw the same level of abuse and manipulation.
There are other religious groups that show abusive, manipulative behavior. Fortunately, most of us have not experienced those religious experiences.
What makes one person stay and hope that things will get better?
Is it hope that it's not really happening? Not really going to last?
Is it denial that something is wrong to begin with?
Does manipulation grow more quickly when there are ideals and dreams attached to the one doing the manipulating and abusing?
I know. I've just thrown in more questions than answers, but lately I've found that the best way to get an answer is to ask the right questions.
I think that twi was religion - on steroids. The good, bad, and weird were all hyped up
Sounds more like crack cocaine..
like a lot of them had a "dealer's habit", where they'd shoot their own grandma for touching their latest stash..
true?
Some people were convinced to mark and avoid (or worse) those in their own families. For little or no reason outside of some meddler's suspicions. How powerful WAS the drug that twi offered?
To this day, many of those I loved and supported.. fellowshipped with.. even some I knew before way days who are still in wouldn't even DREAM of looking me up. Even before my first post on greasespot. I never was placed on some kind of special blacklist before.
a lot of offshoots are almost as bad.. they'll "play" if one wants to go to "twig".
You know dooj, In a normal world, you might be right.....but here at greasespot, those fights are started by intolerance of anybodies position other than ones own. I think that it a post cult thing...
In order to have no arguments, one person is required to submit and shut up in order to avoid conflict.
Sure, things are more peaceful, pleasant, but at what cost? If people hadn`t spoken up...we`d STILL be trying to live according to twi doctrines...spending the REST of our lives trying to live up to an impossible standard as presented by men we thought were holy and spiritual therefor right....instead of realising what totally sick evil bastards they are and how absolutely rediculous their religious beliefs were...
There is nothing that some people would love better than for everyone to just shut up and pretend all is hunky dory in the twi world, and that we were God`s spiritual giants :(
Apparently for some, the aching throbs from the addiction never wore off.
Was that the drug? To be gawd's spiritual "giants"?
Why can't some people just live a "normal" life? Don't have to be "special".. or hold some mystic power that others lack.. the sun will still come up the same way it does practically every morning..
Rascal... I have never said that we should be quiet. Never have I implied that a story be changed to make it more palatable.
I guess my understanding of what SirG was saying (and I'm proposing as well) is to wait a bit longer before responding to a button being pushed. Perhaps respond differently each time. It just seems that it's too easy for the same arguments to stop at the same... exact... tiresome... place... over and over and over and over and over again. That brass ring doesn't look so nice on the 5,000th turn around the carousel.
Debates like that leave both parties exhausted and in a pile of sweat and food, each side wondering what if anything was accomplished.
If this were a physical cafe and the same people came in everyday for several years - one thing is certain - something would have changed by now whether it is the style of debate or the depth of the debate.
I think that avoiding the knee jerk reactions would allow for more truth to be presented because the bait for derail wouldn't be taken.
If the point is to tell "the other side of the story" then get on with the telling and leave the bickering on the side of the road. The derails only can happen if the derail tracks are followed.
You know dooj? I think things have improved greatly since baiting, personal attacks and stalking has been cracked down upon.
I think that a great amount of information is being put forth and examined. I think people are getting answeres. I don`t know what else you want, but there will probably always be someone who perceives questioning of ideas as personal attacks and respond with nastiness...the challenge is to continue on with the conversation at hand in spite of the disruptions.
I don`t understand how you just see that as a food fight and carnage. Maybe there is good being accomplished, points being made, understanding that brings healing that you are unaware of?
I think people don`t want to feel like they were fooled. You base your entire adult life on a belief system, on perceptions ....you don`t want to believe that you are wrong....It is mighty tough to re evaluate a life time of views on ones self and the universe at large.
id like to try to restate what i was trying to say before
because i was really trying to address this kind of question:
Was TWI no worse than other religions?
and i think this next quote really hits a very valid important point
I think people don`t want to feel like they were fooled. You base your entire adult life on a belief system, on perceptions ....you don`t want to believe that you are wrong....It is mighty tough to re evaluate a life time of views on ones self and the universe at large.
because what i am trying to say (along with what dooj said about pausing)
is that we can recognize how our belief systems are moving through an entire spectrum of being wrong
an entire spectrum of being fooled
an entire spectrum of humiliations
an entire spectrum of re-evaluating our worldviews
not just 2 worldviews
...where we go from a bad worldview to a good one
...or where we wonder if our worldview is good or evil
but where every worldview we experience is seen as valid for a time
...until we are done with it and discover its wisdom
...and it limitations
and until we can start handling this kind of possibility in our conversations
we will continue to respond to very important questions like "Was TWI no worse than other religions?" in a 2-dimensional way
i am trying to suggest that we might do well to also try to locate the overall TWI value system
(as well as other religions being used for comparison)
on a map that has more options than mere good or evil (monochromatic)
so when we look at religious history...we can see a spectrum of values at play within religions
and when we look at the twi experiences...we can see spectrums of values at play within twi
etc...
...a more biblical map
where "the mind of christ" is often vividly described as being surrounded by a rainbow
I really think that we are saying the same thing only different ways Todd. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...
But like we are on this journey...we are all at different places in our travels, enjoying different sights, learning different lessons...eventually we all arrive at the same spot, even if we end up branching off on different trails ...we seem to be going in the same general direction.
Now....where dooj sees food fights...I see people actively blocking the trail which I wish to travel. They have traveled as far as they intend to go...and are actively trying to dissuade others from going on.
Now....as far as twi, and the idea of this thread....I saw a bunch of good hearted people get detoured into a swamp...with promises of a shortcut to our destination....a stinking oozing entrapping mire....some of us have fought our way to solid ground...some of us lost friends and family members to the viscuous filth that sucked away their energy and life....alligators lurked there...feeding on the entrapped...yet ...by God`s grace....some of us...we emerge dirty...weary, exhausted from the fight to free ourselves.
We stand on the banks...in sunshine and freedom, safe from the danger...we know what we endured, we know how we struggled, we know that our friends lost their lives.....we try to hand out maps, nail warning signes to the trees directing the unwary from the muck and mire...we help hose the stink and ooze off of one another, bandage and treat one anothers bleeding wounds.
You THEN have these yahoos claiming that the swamp wasn`t REALLY a swamp...that we could have left any time that we chose...that it was really no different from any OTHER body of water .... that people frolick in and sail their boats or fish or water ski......that truly only the mentally weak or unstable could not leave...
This thread started because of the accusations on the kristin skedgil podcast thread that twi was no worse than any OTHER religious group to leave...that we were simply indulging in victim mentality propaganda.
I maintain that this is not true, a lie...for the reasons that I listed.
end up branching off on different trails ...we seem to be going in the same general direction.
Now....where dooj sees food fights...I see people actively blocking the trail which I wish to travel. They have traveled as far as they intend to go...and are actively trying to dissuade others from going on.
I'm going to address this because my name was mentioned.
It takes two sides to derail a thread - one side to throw the bait out and the other to bite it and take the hook.
THEN the food fights take the thread so far off course that the original point is so lost it's under the table under a pile of the Blue Plate Special.
I'm going to repeat this....
I am all for telling the other side of the story - but it's not "telling" anything when it degrades into arguing and namecalling. If you want to tell the story - TELL IT - please, please, please...stop addressing the hecklers....please.
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oldiesman
What a disparaging thing to say about brothers in Christ.
Heefner, Doop, Fugit et al. WERE serving God during their participation in twi.
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WordWolf
They were serving him BETTER BEFORE their participation in twi.
Distorting what I said doesn't change what I said-it just shows you're either
unable or unwilling to read it and understand it.
MOST posters have no difficulty with that.
Ever wonder why you do, so often?
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rascal
Who was disparaged?
I think wolf has a valid point...Who knows where these legitimate christians and thier vibrant ministries would have gone had they not been wrestled off track by the deceiver wierwille?
Sure we THOUGHT we were serving God...but our efforts went to sate the sick lusts of wierwille...our tithe bought toys for an immoral man, supported his immoral habits and paid for his immoral mistakes hush money, abortions etc..our witnessing brought young women to his lair to be abused, families were placed under his influence to be torn asunder, children put under the power of pedophiles and abusers....sure we all THOUGHT we were serving God, sure we were selfless in our efforts...but look who the heck was actually served...look at the *fruit* the broken lives, the misery, the actual death...that is a pretty ugly thing to lay at the feet of God.
That is why deception is CALLED deception...DUH We are deceived into doing what someone ELSE wants CONTRARY to our own bests interests :(
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sirguessalot
like ive said before...
there are many discernable spectrums of development in individual and group behavior and perspectives
which includes spectrums of values, morals, depths and span of care and concern, intelligences, etc...
but until we find a way to include these kinds of possibilities into such conversations
i feel we are going to continue to be stuck in flattened patterns of reasoning that will not produce a complex enough map to disclose what is actually a complex terrain ("wilderness")
causing us to go round and round in dead-end conversations about cults, cultures and religion, religions, and all the thousands of inter-religious histories of the world
and by "complex"...i am speaking of counting to 7 or so ("eating of a tree/system of life"), versus merely counting to 2 all the time ("eating of a tree/system of good or evil")
of course...such a conversation will also likely expose us all to our selves to some greater depths or degrees
just sayin...
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cheranne
hello?
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rascal
It may not make sense to you Todd, but that doesn`t negate the value of the discussion here. In understanding the spiritually putrid nature of that in which we were involved....we are freed from the mental bonds that kept us in that dark little box of twi thinking.
We become free to begin learning and growing, blossoming once we discard the narrow minded arrogance aquired and sustained by twi doctrine.
A FREAKIN men OCW!
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doojable
I *think* I understand what you're saying SirG.
We've all seen how threads dealing with difficult subjects go. A topic gets started, bantered about a bit, and then Party A decides it doesn't like where it's going.
*Press* there goes a button.
Party B responds to the button being pushed (Danger! Danger! Evacuate the area until Party A has been dealt with.) *Press* there goes another button.
Now Party A is ticked and retorts back.
Button pushing, arms-a-flailing, before you know it a food fight has ensued and no one remembers the original topic.
"Lack of Information" served ala "Sloppy Joe" - at it's finest. Sure there's information to be found, but it has to be picked out of hair and clothing and off the walls and reassembled before it's even recognizable, much less palatable.
Perhaps (BIG perhaps here) SirG is suggesting PAUSING before pressing the button. Let the emotions and knee jerk reactions simmer just a bit instead of turning the heat up to bring a full boil.
Maybe it's like taking the ball out of the pinball machine and letting it roll about freely instead of always relying on the same old bumpers and flippers to get it to it's destination.
Though, knowing SirG as I've come to know him (not much, admittedly) he might suggest a brand new destination in yet another game.
So to go back to the original topic....
I think that these questions... these "I" questions beg to be answered on a person-by-person basis. Not everyone fits this scenario so there are no one-size-fits-all answers. Plenty of room to speculate and toss around personal stories and find answers in the commonness of experience, but no one answer will do.I think that twi was religion - on steroids. The good, bad, and weird were all hyped up. It makes sense in a way that so much emotion runs around these boards.
To minimalize any experience is not right, in my book anyway.
The truth is that even if every other religion out there is abusive and wrong, it doesn't make any of the abuse any less abusive. It only makes it more common. One could argue that it makes it even MORE wrong because it's become accepted as a norm.
That's like the abusive husband pointing to his wife after hitting her and saying, "Hey, be thankful I didn't do like JimBob down the street did to his wife. He cut her into little pieces after he hit her."
The deeper reason.... that will be personal as well, since not everyone stayed. Not everyone saw the same level of abuse and manipulation.
There are other religious groups that show abusive, manipulative behavior. Fortunately, most of us have not experienced those religious experiences.
What makes one person stay and hope that things will get better?
Is it hope that it's not really happening? Not really going to last?
Is it denial that something is wrong to begin with?
Does manipulation grow more quickly when there are ideals and dreams attached to the one doing the manipulating and abusing?
I know. I've just thrown in more questions than answers, but lately I've found that the best way to get an answer is to ask the right questions.
Sorry for the derail if I've done so...
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Ham
Sounds more like crack cocaine..
like a lot of them had a "dealer's habit", where they'd shoot their own grandma for touching their latest stash..
true?
Some people were convinced to mark and avoid (or worse) those in their own families. For little or no reason outside of some meddler's suspicions. How powerful WAS the drug that twi offered?
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Ham
To this day, many of those I loved and supported.. fellowshipped with.. even some I knew before way days who are still in wouldn't even DREAM of looking me up. Even before my first post on greasespot. I never was placed on some kind of special blacklist before.
a lot of offshoots are almost as bad.. they'll "play" if one wants to go to "twig".
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rascal
You know dooj, In a normal world, you might be right.....but here at greasespot, those fights are started by intolerance of anybodies position other than ones own. I think that it a post cult thing...
In order to have no arguments, one person is required to submit and shut up in order to avoid conflict.
Sure, things are more peaceful, pleasant, but at what cost? If people hadn`t spoken up...we`d STILL be trying to live according to twi doctrines...spending the REST of our lives trying to live up to an impossible standard as presented by men we thought were holy and spiritual therefor right....instead of realising what totally sick evil bastards they are and how absolutely rediculous their religious beliefs were...
There is nothing that some people would love better than for everyone to just shut up and pretend all is hunky dory in the twi world, and that we were God`s spiritual giants :(
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Ham
Apparently for some, the aching throbs from the addiction never wore off.
Was that the drug? To be gawd's spiritual "giants"?
Why can't some people just live a "normal" life? Don't have to be "special".. or hold some mystic power that others lack.. the sun will still come up the same way it does practically every morning..
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sirguessalot
thanks dooj, yeah
just trying to help, rascal
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rascal
Thanks Todd, I will try to understand.
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sirguessalot
thanks rascal, me too
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doojable
Rascal... I have never said that we should be quiet. Never have I implied that a story be changed to make it more palatable.
I guess my understanding of what SirG was saying (and I'm proposing as well) is to wait a bit longer before responding to a button being pushed. Perhaps respond differently each time. It just seems that it's too easy for the same arguments to stop at the same... exact... tiresome... place... over and over and over and over and over again. That brass ring doesn't look so nice on the 5,000th turn around the carousel.
Debates like that leave both parties exhausted and in a pile of sweat and food, each side wondering what if anything was accomplished.
If this were a physical cafe and the same people came in everyday for several years - one thing is certain - something would have changed by now whether it is the style of debate or the depth of the debate.
I think that avoiding the knee jerk reactions would allow for more truth to be presented because the bait for derail wouldn't be taken.
If the point is to tell "the other side of the story" then get on with the telling and leave the bickering on the side of the road. The derails only can happen if the derail tracks are followed.
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rascal
You know dooj? I think things have improved greatly since baiting, personal attacks and stalking has been cracked down upon.
I think that a great amount of information is being put forth and examined. I think people are getting answeres. I don`t know what else you want, but there will probably always be someone who perceives questioning of ideas as personal attacks and respond with nastiness...the challenge is to continue on with the conversation at hand in spite of the disruptions.
I don`t understand how you just see that as a food fight and carnage. Maybe there is good being accomplished, points being made, understanding that brings healing that you are unaware of?
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doojable
I'll just drop this....
Back to the subject of the thread...
Was TWI no worse that other religions?
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cheranne
..and the golden turd award goes too............(drum roll pleeze) TWI
not a religon but a cult
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rascal
Ham, I think that you are on to something there.
I think people don`t want to feel like they were fooled. You base your entire adult life on a belief system, on perceptions ....you don`t want to believe that you are wrong....It is mighty tough to re evaluate a life time of views on ones self and the universe at large.
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sirguessalot
id like to try to restate what i was trying to say before
because i was really trying to address this kind of question:
and i think this next quote really hits a very valid important pointbecause what i am trying to say (along with what dooj said about pausing)
is that we can recognize how our belief systems are moving through an entire spectrum of being wrong
an entire spectrum of being fooled
an entire spectrum of humiliations
an entire spectrum of re-evaluating our worldviews
not just 2 worldviews
...where we go from a bad worldview to a good one
...or where we wonder if our worldview is good or evil
but where every worldview we experience is seen as valid for a time
...until we are done with it and discover its wisdom
...and it limitations
and until we can start handling this kind of possibility in our conversations
we will continue to respond to very important questions like "Was TWI no worse than other religions?" in a 2-dimensional way
i am trying to suggest that we might do well to also try to locate the overall TWI value system
(as well as other religions being used for comparison)
on a map that has more options than mere good or evil (monochromatic)
so when we look at religious history...we can see a spectrum of values at play within religions
and when we look at the twi experiences...we can see spectrums of values at play within twi
etc...
...a more biblical map
where "the mind of christ" is often vividly described as being surrounded by a rainbow
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doojable
Maybe this is like seeing the validity of Kindergarten when you're 5 or 6 and how inappropriate it is for a 19 year old.
Maybe instead of looking at religious experiences as being "in for life," we should look at them as "in for a season."
Am I understanding you, SirG?
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rascal
I really think that we are saying the same thing only different ways Todd. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...
But like we are on this journey...we are all at different places in our travels, enjoying different sights, learning different lessons...eventually we all arrive at the same spot, even if we end up branching off on different trails ...we seem to be going in the same general direction.
Now....where dooj sees food fights...I see people actively blocking the trail which I wish to travel. They have traveled as far as they intend to go...and are actively trying to dissuade others from going on.
Now....as far as twi, and the idea of this thread....I saw a bunch of good hearted people get detoured into a swamp...with promises of a shortcut to our destination....a stinking oozing entrapping mire....some of us have fought our way to solid ground...some of us lost friends and family members to the viscuous filth that sucked away their energy and life....alligators lurked there...feeding on the entrapped...yet ...by God`s grace....some of us...we emerge dirty...weary, exhausted from the fight to free ourselves.
We stand on the banks...in sunshine and freedom, safe from the danger...we know what we endured, we know how we struggled, we know that our friends lost their lives.....we try to hand out maps, nail warning signes to the trees directing the unwary from the muck and mire...we help hose the stink and ooze off of one another, bandage and treat one anothers bleeding wounds.
You THEN have these yahoos claiming that the swamp wasn`t REALLY a swamp...that we could have left any time that we chose...that it was really no different from any OTHER body of water .... that people frolick in and sail their boats or fish or water ski......that truly only the mentally weak or unstable could not leave...
This thread started because of the accusations on the kristin skedgil podcast thread that twi was no worse than any OTHER religious group to leave...that we were simply indulging in victim mentality propaganda.
I maintain that this is not true, a lie...for the reasons that I listed.
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doojable
I'm going to address this because my name was mentioned.
It takes two sides to derail a thread - one side to throw the bait out and the other to bite it and take the hook.
THEN the food fights take the thread so far off course that the original point is so lost it's under the table under a pile of the Blue Plate Special.
I'm going to repeat this....
I am all for telling the other side of the story - but it's not "telling" anything when it degrades into arguing and namecalling. If you want to tell the story - TELL IT - please, please, please...stop addressing the hecklers....please.
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sirguessalot
yeah...i think that is a good way to start looking at it
and even further...is how humanity is developing through larger collective waves much like an individual does
...parallel tracks on very different scales
in other words, for example...there was a time when mythic fundamentalism was the cutting edge
and was a new and better alternative to the self-centered governing style of tyrannical god-kings
in one sense, this was when human governmental structures and patterns first started leaving the "terrible 2s"
and people started learning how to join as groups for reasons of a shared ideal
just as there was an age when reason was the lapping edge of history
...once we found that mythic virtues did not do everything we needed
another way to see it...
how it is in the "religious season" of life (and history) that "we" and "our" first became highest priority
before that, "me" was the highest value system
which is also a big part of why i think there was authentic value and healing found in entering twi
because in spite of how limited and distorted the doctrines and practices
TWI genuinely served to help many move from being focused on "me"
to tasting a deeper sense of "we"
"it was the fellowship" we hear so often
but the experiencing a "we" was only the first step on a much longer journey of many steps
...not the last step
whether an individual
or a wave of individuals
...
i hope that helps see what i see a bit more
as it relates to this thread...
once we start to see that there IS such thing as depths and degrees of human values and interactions
we can start to evaluate the quality of a religious communities values with a much wider scale
...a scale that allows for a much broader spectrum of both reasons and meanings
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