Native Americans

[rhino]

It seems fairly recent study has found the Indians did not all arrive from the land bridge that connected Asia and North America some 15,000 years ago. That had been so widely accepted, I thought this was post worthy.

WHO were the

FIRST

Americans?

The accumulating skeletal and genetic evidence suggests that the earliest populations to move into the Americas were not Asians whose primary genetic background was that of residents of northeastern Asia and eastern Mongolia (the old view). At the end of 1999 scientists meet in California and New Mexico to mull over the implications of recently discovered or restudied

ancient American skeletons

, most of which date between 8,600 and 11,000 years ago. And what they discovered has shaken the foundations of the anthropological communities. Instead of resembling the historically known American Indians, the wide range of skull shapes which have come to light so far display affinities with populations as diverse as the

Ainu

of Japan, peoples of central

Asia

,

Australasia

,

India

,

southwest Asia

, even the Neandertals of Europe (see

Ancestors of the New World Had Multiple Origins

for more information about the possible Neandertal connection). Genetic evidence also supports the idea of multiple migrations of people coming from distinctly different genetic poplations: perhaps as many as

four or five different genetic populations

. For an idea of what some of these earliest Americans may have looked like,

go here

.

And then I found this ...

Human footprints discovered beside an ancient Mexican lake have been dated to 40,000 years ago. If the finding survives the controversy it is bound to stir up, it means that humans must have moved into the New World at least 30,000 years earlier than previously thought.

....

But when were they made? It has taken the team two years, using a panoply of high-tech dating techniques, to determine that the prints are about 40,000 years old.

The key date came from shells in the lake sediments, which the team carbon-dated to 38,000 years ago. Sand grains baked into the ash and dated using optically stimulated luminescence corroborated the finding.

It is interesting how I accepted things as true, but only in the last several years have some things that were and are commonly accepted, found to be completely wrong.

Maybe it doesn't really matter, but it does seem interesting .... who were the first peoples on these lands? I have found a few Indian artifacts around here ... and have several more that my uncles found on the farm ...

[rhino]

And some Indians may be my relatives ... and I want my land back ... and we were here before those darn Siberian Indians ...

A Controversial Theory

"To produce a modern European out of a Neanderthal, all you have to do is reduce the robustness," Brace said. Scale down the heavy teeth, jaws and brow of the Neanderthal and you have a European, he said. It is a controversial theory because most scientists believe that Neanderthals were an evolutionary dead-end, people who lived side-by-side with the Cro-Magnons who were the earliest Homo sapiens but who did not interbreed with them.

But Loring said his measurements that compare the skulls of people all over the world suggest a resemblance among peoples living in Europe, along the coastlines of Asia and into ancient North America.

He also found two distinct groups among the Native Americans. "It is clear there are two major groups and they are not closely related to each other at all,

" Brace said. One group physically more resembles East Asians, especially modern Chinese, while the second looks a lot like the

Ainu

. "

Some of the Plains Indians don't look Native American at all," Brace said. He thinks they may have come from the same lineage as

Kennewick Man

did.

[excathedra]

wow

[cheranne]

Gee...lots of people i knew in Oklahoma City looked just like that too! hmm.......

[Jim]

Then there's the whole Kennewick man controversy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

[dmiller]

The *Native American* monicker --- what a crock!!!

I was born here in America -- I'm *native American*.

Chances are you were too --- you're *native American*.

Sad thing is *native American* (these days) refers to American Indians and not the rest of us,

(who by definition of birth) --- deserve the same title --- AND benefits afforded the *others*.

*Native Americans/ American indians (hereafter referred to as Naai)

are getting the *best* of the deaL, to the detriment of other folks.

Not sure what it's like in YOUR states -- but here in Minney-soda, lots of *native American white folk* are being run roughshod over, in the name of *political correctness*. Sorry -- but this issue p!$$es me off big time. Rights/ privilidges that are given to one group are denied to another, and to put it bluntly --- THAT SUCKS.

Mom and Pop businesses are being forced out of business by laws that directly influence their customer base. Do these same laws apply to the Naai?? No -- Not so's you'd notice. The Naai seem to get a repeal on their operations whenever it comes to smoking indoors, alcohol, or gambling --- all the *sins* that seem to plague most cities (these days). Recently -- Minnesota passed a law saying no smoking in bars. Gambling is also illegal in bars here. Did that apply to all bars?? No. Indian (woops -- I meant Naai) establishments are exempt.

For what it's worth -- I don't gamble nor do I frequent bars --- but when the Naai bars/ casinos/ (etc.) are allowed to have any AND ALL practices going on in their establishments that used to be *enjoyed* by the Mom and Pop places (but no longer because of city ordinances that apply to only a *select* few), that's when the Sh!! really starts to stink.

I don't give a ratzz azz who was here first, or second, or third.

Folks that are here now are the one's who count.

How hard is it to treat all equally???

[rhino]

Right DMiller ... I'm not sure about these 200 year old treaties ... but special treatment based on a trace of bloodline seems unfair.

Thanks for the link, Jim .... from that they seem to say it really is conclusive all original americans came from one source. So I'm unclear again.

I'm not prepared to study much more on what the evidence of haplogroup x means, but I found the Solutrean hypothesis also suggesting earlier Eurpean roots.

The

Solutrean hypothesis

proposes that stone tool technology of the

Solutrean

culture in prehistoric Europe may have later influenced the development of the

Clovis

tool-making culture in the Americas, and that peoples from Europe may have been among the earliest settlers in the Americas.

^[1]

. First proposed in

1998

, its key proponents include

Dennis Stanford

of the

Smithsonian Institution

and Bruce Bradley of the

University of Exeter

.

[cheranne]

Cry me a river! How about a TRAIL OF TEARS!

[cheranne]

The Trail of Tears is generally considered to be one of the most regrettable episodes in American history. To commemorate the event, the U.S. Congress designated the Trail Of Tears National Historic Trail in 1987. It stretches for 2,200 miles (3,540 km) across nine states.

In 2004, Senator Sam Brownback (Republican of Kansas) introduced a joint resolution (Senate Joint Resolution 37) to “offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States” for past “ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian Tribes. The United States Senate has yet to take action on the measure

[cheranne]

more food for thought at GS cafeThere were ten million Native Americans on this continent when the first non-Indians arrived. Over the next 300 years, 90% of all Native American original population was either wiped out by disease, famine, or warfare imported by the whites

[J0nny Ling0]

I don't think anybody here will disagree that this was a terrible injustice to the Indians. You will, however, find that there are probably people here who disagree with how the Indians have been dealt with since we White Men have concluded that a terrible injustice had been done to the ancestors of todays American Indian.

I see lots of discrimination toward White People here in Alaska coming from the indians. For instance, one of my "favorite" adds that I see in the newspapers here in Alaska. One add that I see alot reads like this:

Tlingit-Haida Corporation now hiring carpenters for housing project

$28.00 an hour for journeymen, $16.00 an hour for apprentices

Call ***_****

Tlingit-Haida Corporation, an Equal Opportunity Employer

Exercising Native Preference Hiring Rights

Now, that one just cracks me up! Talk about a contradiction of terms! An "equal opportunity employer" now practicing "Native Preference Hiring Rights?" What in the world is "equal" about that? What a crock of crapola! I have Indian buddies who think it's a crock of sheet also. Once, a friend named Jimmy, a nearly full blooded Tlingit, call me from a Native village called Hoonah. He wanted me to come there and help him hang sheetrock for T and H (Tlingit-Haida) on a housing project. I told him that I wasn't allowed to work on that job because I am not an Indian. He told me not to worry, because that's a bunch of bullsheet. And, he said, none of us Indians here know how to hang sheetrock like you do, so come on down. "We need you White Man!" He said they were all staying in a bunk house and they had lots of whiskey and the food would be free and that the weekly per diem was $250.00. I told him that I was busy with a different job, and that I would have to pass. Sounded like an uncool scene down there in good old Hoonah. Sometimes it's not smart to hang around a village as a lone White Man with all of that drinking going on. The money would have been nice, but I had work right at home anyway, so, I didn't go.

And so, I disagree with the Native Preference thing, especially when the money funding the Native Housing projects comes straight from the Federal Gubmint, which means straight from my tax dollars. You mean; "I get to pay for it", but I don't even get to apply for the job and work to get some of my tax money back? Eet ees a crock of sheet mi amigos...

Ya know Amigos, I am editing this to add a thought. This thread really isn't about how White Man treated the Indians in the past. And it is also not about how today's treatment of the Native Americans (I really don't have a problem with calling them Native Americans) is bad or good. But rather, it seems, this thread is about the interesting study that Rhino presented concerning just what People may have been the First Immigrants to come to North America. We could de-rail and discuss the politics of Native American Affairs, and no doubt many points of view would be discussed. But, it really is fascinating when looking at some of the archeological findings that shed light on Who was Here way back when. And really, I don't care if we find that Native Americans as we know them today were the first, or whether there were some more caucasian/European types here first. I just think that the facts are very interesting to look at.

Like Excathedra said; "Wow".

Edited March 29, 2008 by Jonny Lingo

[Ron G.]

That's all very sad...the history and all...but I doubt any Indians today have any personal recollection of it as I, a native American, have no personal recollection of it. When it happened, nobody consulted me nor did I know anything about it. When it happened, I wasn't born yet.

For that reason, I owe nothing to the Indians.

I wonder how many liberals feel personally responsible and guilt ridden for all those innocent people Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow terrorized and murdered. I had an aunt who had to lay on the floor while they were robbing a Piggly Wiggly store in Oklahoma, once. Maybe I should seek reparations and a formal apology from somebody for mental cruelty to my, now deceased, aunt.

Where does the cultural marxism end, anyway?

[cheranne]

In most Native American cultures their are the old stories passed down,you don't forget where you came from.

thats lil native american(usa born)and Native American(usa born),check the box,white,black,hispanic,native american etc...

sorry about your aunt at Piggly Wiggly.

[dmiller]

Cry me a river! How about a TRAIL OF TEARS!

TRAIL OF TEARS.

OKLAHOMA CITY WOW --- Hey there. :)

I'm thinking you misunderstood my post. I have NOTHING against Naai. Nor do I deny that a terrible injustice was done to them. I'm wondering if you think that we should somehow *compensate* all those to whom injustices were done in the past?? Personally -- I don't think so. Past injustices are a stain on history, and (looking at it logistically) there's-not-a-helluva-lot-one-can-do-about-it (these days), except for to recognize that it happened, and acknowledge the fact.

There's a world of hurt out there -- and it isn't up to us to recognize one hurt over another.

Black folks were -------- you know the story;

Irish folks were --------- you know the story;

Japanese folks were ---- you know the story;

Naai folks were ---------- you know the story;

Whatcha gonna do?? How does one recompense all the injustices done in the past??

Can't be done (imo). Shouldn't be done either. Admit it happened, and be done with it.

Now --- what I AM RAILING/ RANTING against -- is the CONTINUED discrimination.

If a purple guy from Mars got *preferential treatment*, I'd say the same thing.

What's happening (these days) is a continuation of what happened in the past ---

with new players involved, but the same old same old in the name of *political correctness*.

Should you care to champion the *poor Naai* and all they have suffered ---

I would hope you have *los cojones* to do the same for folks today.

Admitting past intolerances is acceptable. Continuing them is not.

[cheranne]

Hail to the chief!

[Ductape]

Yes the Trail of Tears was a horrible chapter in the history of the USA. Many Whites fought to prevent this atrocity, including Davy Crocket and the highest court ruled against the removal. How did it happen then? Some tribal members signed away the rights of the tribe making it legal to force the removal. Crocket chose for his career in DC to be ruined because he stood with the Cherokee. Congress had to ratify the treaty and it passed by 1 vote in the Senate, strongly opposed were Daniel Webster and Henry Clay. General John Wool resigned in protest to the removal.

While so many like to point fingers and put all the blame on the Whites, they never mention facts like it took tribe members to sign the treaty after it had been defeated. Just like it took White Abolitionists fighting to bring slavery to an end to free the slaves…..

[pond]

i do not get why they have such high alcoholic rates in their populations.

the reservation in new york are most beautiful country but the home trailers mostly are ghetto like and run down most are unemployed and have serious drinking problems and recieve medical care paid by tax payers (of which they do not contribrute( money.

im not being racist it is a serious issue on the reverations here, proverty is rampant and alcoholic issues.

they are and have been suing the state for the exclusive rights for the gambling business on the res.

so they have the ability to generate HUGE amounts yet still live for the most part below poverty level why?

[J0nny Ling0]

I think a good deal of the problem may have to do with genetics. Europeans have been drinking alcohol for centuries and centuries. Wine, brandy, hard liquor etc. And when "White Man" (Europeans) showed up and introduced the Red Man to alcohol, the tolerance level amongst our Red Brothers was so low, that it hurt them far more than was expected. To this day, here in Alaska, I see many an Indian far more "ruined" by alcohol than the many White alcoholics that I know. I know many a White guy who is an alcoholic who is also very productive when it comes to work, paying the bills, being responsible in the pecuniary matters of life, etc, but is still an alcoholic. But when it comes to the many Red Men here who drink, they just do not handle it well at all, and become extremely non productive, complacent, and willing to waste each and every day in a drunken stupor.

Shoot, a young man who used to come to my twig with his Mom back in 1982 when he was only fourteen, came up to me on the downtown street and "pan handled" money from me, and it was sooo sad. I looked at him and said; "Joe? Is that you? Why, you are so big and tall!" And he was so bleary eyed and drunk, and he broke into tears and hugged me saying; "Kevin! Kevin! I loved you Kevin!" and I was choked to the max. And, thank God I actually had no money in my pocket, so I could honestly say that I didn't have anything to give him. I wanted to give, but then again, I didn't want to give him booze money either, And so, I was let off the hook by not having any money. I did get his number from him, but, as it turns out, his cousin told me that he had moved back to Hoonah (a tiny Native village) by the time I had called him.

But I think that because the North American Native Americans had no access to hard booze over the centuries, the effect on them is way worse on them than it is on we of European descent...

[RottieGrrrl]

That's interesting Johnny. I remember my dad saying that my grandpa (who was probably just like a quarter Native American) couldn't even handle having a beer. I didn't really buy the story about Indians and alchohol, but as I grew up I had other people, a couple of NA's included tell me the same thing about the alcohol effect. I't still puzzles me but you threw out an interesting theory there.

Edited March 31, 2008 by RottieGrrrl

[cheranne]

not all Native Americans live on reservations,in a trailer in the ghetto,drinking themselves to death!

[Ron G.]

not all Native Americans live on reservations,in a trailer in the ghetto,drinking themselves to death!

you're absolutely correct. I'm a Native American (of Scottish descent) and I don't live like that and neither do any of the other Native Americans I know.

I seriously doubt all American Indians live like that, either.

[JeffSjo]

Prejudice against the local native americans was the only racial prejudice that I grew up around. It's no better than any other.

Some were good upstanding folks. Some of them I partied with, just like my fellow white dumbfoot burnout friends when I was a teen.

[pond]

Im not speaking about the folks who relatives had a baby with an indian. who romance what their blood line means .. Im speaking about a nation of people that have been reserved to live within their own nation to be accepted in a tribe menas more than having "indian" dna in your genes.

the reservation is a seperate community it is where they all live they have RIGHTS and are granted them through the tribe and to the landetc, If your an indian you belong to a tribe all tribes live on reservations. they do not vote they do not pay taxes they do not go to war many many many facets of life is not at all what AMERICA defines as citizens they are NOT citizens of the usa they are a SEPERATEnation within the USA . get it?

land granted to them as a SEPERATE nation. they are not part of the USA they are sperate. their land and rights and LAWS are RESERVED for their people which is NOT USA. hence the idea of reservation for them to live as THEIR PEOPLE decide SEPERATE from AMERICA. helllo

doubt all you want you may want to get educated first.

yes some do have homes on the res.. but for the most part the reservations are a mess here. beautiful country but the lifestyle is extreme poverty.

If an indian is not part of their tribe( I have never ever heard of such a thing) they will not be a member of their NATION which has been reserved by the treaty alliances to live within certain borders of land. those borders are the reservations.

it is romantic for white men to think hey i got some indian blood doesnt mean a thing to the indian other than you screwed a indian woman or your mama did a brown skin do not be foolish.. your not native american unless your have the papers.. and with the "papers" come some very erious rules of engagement.

look up do some reading on how the tribes are doing in america it isnt pretty . maybe out west they do better here in the north they suffer badly by their own hand and alcohol is a very rampant problem, although the casino's are helping to change the situations . we can ONLY have gambling ON the reservations per the treaty alliance BUT it is being contested in the courts now and if the indians LOSE well things will change again.

my grandmother who is still alive was bought and paid for by a white man for a sum of money when she was fourteen years old she left the res... and spawnded five children with that man .. they look very indian but they are not she has no rights to tribal privilidge.. nor does her children my father her son was a officer in the ARMY etc. they are citizen of the USA she was married to a white man. a baby with indian DNA does not have any rights to the RESERVATION UNLESS the tribe decides they want him/her. it is more than blood it is a spiritual community steeped in traditions and culture.

Edited April 2, 2008 by pond

[cheranne]

Facts About American Indians Today

Source: Bureau of Indian Affairs, U.S. Department of the Interior

Who is an Indian?

No single federal or tribal criterion establishes a person's identity as an Indian. Tribal membership is determined by the enrollment criteria of the tribe from which Indian blood may be derived, and this varies with each tribe. Generally, if linkage to an identified tribal member is far removed, one would not qualify for membership.

To be eligible for Bureau of Indian Affairs services, an Indian must (1) be a member of a tribe recognized by the federal government, (2) be of one-half or more Indian blood of tribes indigenous to the United States; or (3) must, for some purposes, be of one-fourth or more Indian ancestry. By legislative and administrative decision, the Aleuts, Eskimos and Indians of Alaska are eligible for BIA services. Most of the BIA's services and programs, however, are limited to Indians living on or near Indian reservations.

[J0nny Ling0]

Pond, by your description of the Rez, it seems as if your Grandmother was blessed by having been sold to that white man so that she and her kids could be American Citizens as opposed to a life on the Rez...