All I know is the the bible says "the goodness of God leads to repentance." most likely paraphased. So I treat them homosexuals, the same way I would want to be treated.
Hate never brings a person to God. Nobody should ever be treated with hatefully.
Here is how this thread sounds to me,I found this in Door Magazine
In a surprise announcement earlier today, Focus on the Family ended their long, tumultuous association with the LORD GOD, a.k.a. Adonai, due to what they are describing as His hidden gay agenda. Spokesman Lad Eesman claims that from Genesis to Revelation there is a shocking emphasis on the goodness of the whole creation.
Eesman gave the following statement to the press: "Those verses in Genesis 1 that keep repeating 'God saw it, and it was good'—that's the original source of this New Age baloney, 'It's All Good.' Well, it's not. It's mostly evil masquerading as good, and that's what we're here to protect … I mean to stop. We're here to protect the family.
"The first strong recognition of this deity's gay sympathies came during staff Bible study about a week ago when we were confronted with the rainbow as the sign of God's covenant with Noah. A freakin' rainbow! And what kind of a guy's name is Noah, anyway? How can we born again Christians overlook this? God is omniscient and omnipotent, for Pete's sake. He didn't have to use a symbol that He knew would eventually represent gays.
"As we began to discuss this hidden agenda, we also realized that God has always identified with the same symbol that outed that gay Teletubby—the triangle. It's supposed to mean that God is 3 in 1, but really, how far is that from the gay idea of "unity in diversity"? Is it an accident that God is triune? God could be 2 in 1, or 4 in 1, but instead God is a trinity, represented by what we now know is the gay triangle. No, we're not exactly sure why triangles are gay, but we don't have to be sure to know when we find truth. Gay triangles probably have something to do with the Greeks—they were big mathematicians and homosexuals. And we all know that the New Testament was written in Greek. We can't deny these homosexual affiliations any longer.
"For us, the most painful part of this breakup with God is that it has not come sooner. If we hadn't been so distracted with religion we could have paid a lot more attention to the homosexual forces causing the breakdown of society all around us. While we have been leading Bible studies, the Hostess Corporation has been blatantly producing Twinkies, Ho-Hos, Zingers, and Ding-Dongs—all clearly designed to desensitize our children to gayness. Yesterday, with tears in his eyes, James Dobson admitted that he had given big, pink, puffy Hostess Snoballs to his own children. Today Focus on the Family is sickened that through our neglect we have willingly participated in giving homosexual junk food to children. We have not even begun to fight Froot Loops, the ubiquitous 'sprinkles,' and all those talking Veggies with no pants."
After these remarks, a Focus on the Family staffer quietly led the highly agitated Mr. Eesman out of the room. Journalists standing closest to the exit claimed to hear him whispering, "the horror … the horror."
Dr. Dobson was not available for comment, other than to issue a printed statement, faxed to both Fox News and legitimate media outlets:
"We are calling on all Christians to close ranks—figuratively speaking— and join with us to oppose both activist judges and this shocking homosexual agenda. And for you liberals out there, I'll draw your attention to Galatians 3:28—'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' You will notice that nowhere in that verse does it say 'neither straight nor gay.'"
I play nice ... but you seem to be starting off with a lot of yelling ... and some threats about being judged ...
The thread starts with yelling and accusations and threats ... which to me, seems a rather large problem ... a lot like condemnation ....
Who are you yelling at Jeff? Who are these FOLKS that ARE mocking, backstabbing, and gossiping?
This seems like an angry and aggressive way to start a "civil" discussion.
well, i have the same question as rhino...
who are the "mocking, backstabbing, gossiping folks that you refer to?
i have seen no one at the greasespot exhibit any of these behaviors... nor have i seen anyone advocate the "mocking, backstabbing, or gossiping" of homosexuals...
so it seems like a straw man argument to me...
personally, i believe that homosexuals should be treated the same as everyone else... i'm not the one who is putting them into some special category that requires special treatment... seems to me that the bias belongs to those who list specific treatements for homosexuals... although most folks didn't take the bait and simply stated that homosexuals should be treated the same as everyone else (instead of singling them out for special treatment)...
but what are you so mad about, jeff??
peace,
jen-o
Dear Rhino and Jen-o,
Yelling, I'm so sorry, that was not my intent. I'm new to computers in general and didn't know that capitalization can mean yelling, sorry.
But my intention was to point out that condemning homosexuals because you believe that homosexuality is sin is wrong, and actually brings judgment from God onto yourself. I did not mean to point a finger at anyone here, but if someone thinks that I'm pointing a finger at them they are free to object to my point.
For the record Jen-o, I'm not pointing a finger at you. I have met Christians who fit the shoes that I shared about however, and I have been known to run out of patience with them if they're persecuting homosexuals however. I have been known to exhibit real anger under those circumstances.
Dear Doojable,
Thank you for pointing out that maybe I wasn't angry.
Dear Geisha779,
I'm glad that you posted on this topic, I wouldn't mind hearing some more from you at all. I think the subject of how a Christian should treat homosexuals is a much more relevant discussion than is it good, bad, or something else. I think how you treat homosexuals is a gem that's worth a lot more than two cents IMO.
Dear Bramble,
Do I understand you correctly that you are homosexual? I believe it is my responsibility to treat you with respect whether you are or not. Even though I do not believe that homosexuality is a good thing in and of itself, I hope that I would not treat you in any way at all badly if we were to meat out in the world or here at the Greasespot.
I will have nothing to do with these things spoken of in this article.
It seems to close to the same attitude of presumed superiority that my little splinter group had when they wrecked my life. I think that I'd rather be the Christian who tells them that their so-called Christian agenda for society is out of step with biblical Christianity.
I believe that within the church Christians are free to figure things out and do the best they can in regards to these issues, but to try to reform culture at large is pointless at best; and developes dangerous, harmful, and hateful attitudes at worst. Whatever happened to "Wise as serpents and HARMLESS as doves" anyway. Doctrinally this is about the best way that I know to approach not just this topic, but pretty much all of them.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
P.S.
I'll have to stop in about ten minutes, but I wish that I could stay and talk longer.
Heehee Jeff. No I am not a homosexual. I'm hetero, married almost 20 years with three teenagers. In TWi from college to my forties, I am now pagan/Wiccan. I know quite a few gay people in my community due to the pagan connections.
I will have nothing to do with these things spoken of in this article.
It seems to close to the same attitude of presumed superiority that my little splinter group had when they wrecked my life. I think that I'd rather be the Christian who tells them that their so-called Christian agenda for society is out of step with biblical Christianity.
I believe that within the church Christians are free to figure things out and do the best they can in regards to these issues, but to try to reform culture at large is pointless at best; and developes dangerous, harmful, and hateful attitudes at worst. Whatever happened to "Wise as serpents and HARMLESS as doves" anyway. Doctrinally this is about the best way that I know to approach not just this topic, but pretty much all of them.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
Jeff dear, I think what OK City posted was a joke..if it wasnt it should be as I was laughing like crazy!
Have to admit tho there were some interesting correlations drawn in that little 'article'.
I read this thread and I notice that the one thing that nobody (particularly the bible believing fundamentalists) will even consider touching is the possibility that the bible just might be wrong/flawed/erroneous/lacking in information as to its take on homosexuality. Ie., they read various scriptures as regarding homosexuality, and they take it as science. As irrevocable Truth that just cannot be challenged whatsoever. Particularly in dealing with homosexuality as an abomination.
Why? And why this topic? ... Many of you bible believers have shown some flexibility (at least in your behavior in life) as regards other 'sins' mentioned in the bible. ... Gluttony. Adultery. Stealing. Dismissing the poor. Greed. Etc. (<-- Basically, if the shoe fits, wear it) A lot of fundamentalists give lip service at saying "Oh yeah! Those are sins too." but (when nobody at your church is looking) there seems to be more behavior that is tolerant of said 'sins'.
But as far as homosexuality itself, aside from the obligatory goosesteppi--err I mean, mindles--ahh rather obedient loyalty to the "It Is Written" concept towards the Scriptures, ... how is it that homosexuals are indeed deviant (and I mean in a harmful manner too), immoral, a threat to the American Family, and where the allowance of homosexuality will spell the gloom and doom of our country as we know it!?
Where is the solid evidence of all this? Again, sorry, but quotes from the bible just doesn't cut it, any more than using the bible as an 'alternative' science text dealing with the beginnings of the earth and the universe. <_< Please demonstrate the _facts_ that justify why homosexuals must be dealt with as tho' what they do is so harmful, or why homosexuals asking for _equal protection and treatment under the law_ somehow amounts to 'special rights'?
Wordwolf, Rhino, et al, you guys whine--err talk about the 'uncivil' discourse in this thread, and maybe you're correct in the immediate sense, ... to a degree. But have you guys ever stop to think as to all the _real_ reasons why there are a lot of 'homo supporters' who bitch like we do as to this topic? Do you really think that its mainly due to us all shaking out collective fists at God and wanting to live a deviant, immoral, abusive lifestyle or to support those that do? Do you guys really think that we are just out to 'get you and persecute you' for your undying Christian faith? (Gad! Whatta bunch of drama queens you all are if that's the case! )
And frankly I think that a little dose of 'uncivility' is good in an open exchange of ideas. It's part of our human nature, and its part of a free society. And it's even sometimes part of the expression of opinions held by the so-called 'civil' people, especially when they are speaking that which they believe in.
If homosexuals are all so deviant in their sex lives and practices, then why do they want to get married, anyway/ Wouldn't that put a damper on free wheeling promiscouos lifestyles?
if your doctrine demands the impossible of people--change your sexual orientation--or a lifestle that you yourself don't have to live--you didn't change so no sex/lovers/spouse ever for you!-- then you should expect people will want to know exactly how this doctrine helps the homosexual live a blessed and abundant life.
Because it looks like you are asking the impossible and then condemning people as abombinations and sinners for not meeting your standard.
Politically correct? Expedient? Or gentle, loving and kind. There is a big difference. It is expedient to say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality--everyone has a right--I don't care what people do in their own bedrooms. It is politically correct to support "Gay Rights" or join Rosies Cruise and march on pride day.
It is gentle, loving and kind to reach out to those who are lost--anyone who is lost.
I remember when I realised that God is HOLY and JUST! Post Way. It scared the H out of me--quite literally. But, not knowing Jesus from Adam, I set out to save myself with acts and words of righteousness. I was going to save everyone else as well. Turns out they were self-righteous works and words. I ran around telling people what God says is right and wrong. Nothing wrong with that--if I had done it in love, motivated by God's AMAZING graciousness. I was motivated by fear and frustration that people didn't see a Holy and frankly SCARY God.
He loves everyone right? I heard that alot. How can he condemn when He loves. He is Holy (A bad word in TWI) He cannot abide sin--he cannot tempt with evil and none of us--Not a one can stand before Him on our own merit. Each one of us needs a Saviour. Someone who is perfect and accepted on His merits--to stand in our place. We have been freely offered such an awesome gift. That is love.
If you liken God to a HUGE-POWERFUL - Storm--something you cannot stand-up in or control--You can liken Jesus to the sweet dry and tender shelter provided in that storm. A place to be loved and accepted.
If you see others out in the storm staggering -- unable to find shelter---do you yell out their sin to them in hopes they will change and make their own little shelter? Or do you reach out and say look--there is a way to be safe and loved. Here it is--join us. When we enter such a place we find the most amazing love and peace. We are drawn to such an unspeakably kind, merciful and loving presence. When we see that love --our hearts yearn to love Him back and to obey His words. That is how we change. Being accepted and loved. We love Him because He first loved us.
God never defends His existence. He declares it. He doesn't beg us for our obedience-He expects it. He doesn't call us to condemn--He calls us to love.
There is no condemnation of Christians here. Not any that I have seen. If you want to see what a persecuted Christian looks like--Go to the VOM (Voice of the Martyrs) website. While you are there--pick up a pen and paper and write a prisoner in chains for his or her faith. Otherwise--I would just suck up the few little comments here or there. We were all in a very destuctive and nasty cult--many still stagger in the storm. It is a different journey for each here. Have a little confidence that God is able.
Why? And why this topic? ... Many of you bible believers have shown some flexibility (at least in your behavior in life) as regards other 'sins' mentioned in the bible. ... Gluttony. Adultery. Stealing. Dismissing the poor. Greed. Etc. (<-- Basically, if the shoe fits, wear it) A lot of fundamentalists give lip service at saying "Oh yeah! Those are sins too." but (when nobody at your church is looking) there seems to be more behavior that is tolerant of said 'sins'.
I see adulterers gets slammed here quite strongly ... I have not seen homosexuals get slammed. I'm guessing most think thieves should be punished ... I don't seen anyone calling for homosexuals to be punished. Are you just making things up here?
But as far as homosexuality itself, aside from theobligatory goosesteppi--err I mean, mindles--ahh rather obedient loyalty to the "It Is Written" concept towards the Scriptures, ... how is it that homosexuals are indeed deviant (and I mean in a harmful manner too), immoral, a threat to the American Family, and where the allowance of homosexuality will spell the gloom and doom of our country as we know it!?
congrats ... you got the Hitler attack in there along with a TWI thinking accusation ...
A threat to the American family? I guess you are referring to the majority that don't want same sex marriage ... yet overall I think a majority do support civil unions.
Where is the solid evidence of all this?
Are you offering any solid evidence?
Please demonstrate the _facts_ that justify why homosexuals must be dealt with as tho' what they do is so harmful, or why homosexuals asking for _equal protection and treatment under the law_ somehow amounts to 'special rights'?
Who said they had to be dealt with as harmful?
Should homosexuals be listed as a protected civil rights group? That seems like "special rights".
Should schools be required to teach that homosexual behavior is moral?
Should business be required to fulfill a quota of homosexuals in their offices.
There are many ramifications to listing homosexuals as a civil rights group. They already have the right to equal protection under the law. That is not enough for some that are leading the charge on this.
Maybe if you could stop your eyeballs from going in circles you could grasp this more readily.
Wordwolf, Rhino, et al, you guys whine--err talk about the 'uncivil' discourse in this thread, and maybe you're correct in the immediate sense, ... to a degree. But have you guys ever stop to think as to all the _real_ reasons why there are a lot of 'homo supporters' who bitch like we do as to this topic? Do you really think that its mainly due to us all shaking out collective fists at God and wanting to live a deviant, immoral, abusive lifestyle or to support those that do? Do you guys really think that we are just out to 'get you and persecute you' for your undying Christian faith? (Gad! Whatta bunch of drama queens you all areif that's the case!)
Well you have shown what YOU think ...
You made up that whole dramatic spiel from your own imagination ... doesn't that make YOU the drama queen?
And frankly I think that a little dose of 'uncivility' is good in an open exchange of ideas. It's part of our human nature, and its part of a free society. And it's even sometimes part of the expression of opinions held by the so-called 'civil' people, especially when they are speaking that which they believe in.
Clearly you think "uncivility" is good ... but in a request to have a civil discourse, it seemed odd to me to point out that you would "rot in h@ll" if you presented certain beliefs. Nobody has condemned homosexuals .. yet others have been condemned for holding what others have judged to be harmful beliefs.
I guess you haven't been paying attention Garth ... I haven't thumped a Bible in over 20 years (I don't recall ever "thumping"). My concern is more that political correctness is trumping the good morals of many.
Why should homosexuals get a special legal classification as a protected group? This would give them more legal clout than the "normal" citizen in court regarding jobs, housing, whatever.
In the late 14th and 15th centuries, many blamed their climate problems on witches, who were thought to control the weather. People looked for scapegoats to blame for their suffering and accused one another of witchcraft. Extensive witch hunts occurred during the years with the worst weather in the LIA. Within one German region alone, there were over 1,000 people burned to death for witchcraft in a span of forty years. Next Page
I think loy boy's paranoia and inquistion was as primitive. I mean, we all *know* that "god" wants to *bless* us with more abundance than we possibly could know what to do with in one lifetime, eh?
Well.. something's gotta be "wrong". Lessee.. what's "wrong" in America..
It's.. liberals. Yeah.. one "twig" in an offshoot I was lightly involved with said so. Why, you might not turn "homo" overnight, but such beliefs would open you up to devilish influences..
It's the practioners of Wicca. Sure, that's gotta be it.. making room for all kinds of debils..
maybe it's the Jews, like in Nazi Germany.. they got the blame for practically all of Germany's woe..
forget that the Kaiser bit off more than he could chew, got his donkey kicked..
I would say that most of us here were subjected to the same kind of categorization, fault, and blame.
what was "wrong" with the old ministry..
had to be the "homos".. they were the "biblical" number one target.. loy ran them off.. and did things get better? The skies turn from bronze to silver?
Then those considered "weak", "compromised" to the extent they wouldn't hand over fifteen percent of their income..
Then those "unproductive".. those who couldn't sell loyboy's package to the masses..
Then those in debt.. that's gotta be the problem.. get out of debt, or get out..
Then those who couldn't keep up with a family, two, three kids or more, clean leader's houses, AND keep the top of their refrigerator up to the standards of the latest loywanabe to visit the area..
So, in PRACTICAL terms, doesn't this categorization of a group of people as "sinful" or being some kind of living spiritual treachery at worst, or godless.. or from whom one must make up for lack of believing or spiritual attack by much prayer, intercession and the like..or to regard them as a (or the) cause of some woe, or such.. doesn't it sound kinda, well, "Wayish"?
Heehee Jeff. No I am not a homosexual. I'm hetero, married almost 20 years with three teenagers. In TWi from college to my forties, I am now pagan/Wiccan. I know quite a few gay people in my community due to the pagan connections.
Dear Bramble,
I am very glad that I did not offend you by missreading your "I'm out" comment on your post, and I'm glad that I asked too.
Jeff dear, I think what OK City posted was a joke..if it wasnt it should be as I was laughing like crazy!
Dear Eyesopen,
I didn't get the joke then Eyesopen, but I was glad to consider the matter more taking OKCwow78's post seriously. Even the Christian's with the best popular reputations are not immune to needing grow a little in their application of the scripture IMO. Now that I am bound to agree with Excathedra that VPW was a bastud, going up against a Shuller point doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, but I'm still thinking about how much my bad experiences have colored my perspective anyway.
Have to admit tho there were some interesting correlations drawn in that little 'article'.
hi jeff!
no problemo...
it just sounded like you were mad at someone...
but maybe you are mad at folks who condemn homosexuals (since you mention that you've run across these kinds of people)
but i still haven't seen anyone here at the greasespot condemning or persecuting homosexuals...
actually, i haven't run across anyone who is persecuting homosexuals...
(it is just not the politically correct thing to do)
although i think that it does seem to be open season for condemning christians...
anyway, not a problem...
peace, my friend,
jen-o
p.s. (not directed to jeff)
the bit from the door magazine was suppose to be funny??
it just sounded like a bunch of rambling mindless nonsense...
Dear Jen-o,
I think the fact that I have seen Christians condemning homosexuals led to my post carrying through with some of that anger, but I am glad that it didn't disrupt the point of this thread.
Peace right back at you too friend Jen-o.
This might be a little off topic, maybe not.. mabe it's how NOT to treat a homosexual..
I think loy boy's paranoia and inquistion was as primitive. I mean, we all *know* that "god" wants to *bless* us with more abundance than we possibly could know what to do with in one lifetime, eh?
Well.. something's gotta be "wrong". Lessee.. what's "wrong" in America..
It's.. liberals. Yeah.. one "twig" in an offshoot I was lightly involved with said so. Why, you might not turn "homo" overnight, but such beliefs would open you up to devilish influences..
It's the practioners of Wicca. Sure, that's gotta be it.. making room for all kinds of debils..
maybe it's the Jews, like in Nazi Germany.. they got the blame for practically all of Germany's woe..
forget that the Kaiser bit off more than he could chew, got his donkey kicked..
I would say that most of us here were subjected to the same kind of categorization, fault, and blame.
what was "wrong" with the old ministry..
had to be the "homos".. they were the "biblical" number one target.. loy ran them off.. and did things get better? The skies turn from bronze to silver?
Then those considered "weak", "compromised" to the extent they wouldn't hand over fifteen percent of their income..
Then those "unproductive".. those who couldn't sell loyboy's package to the masses..
Then those in debt.. that's gotta be the problem.. get out of debt, or get out..
Then those who couldn't keep up with a family, two, three kids or more, clean leader's houses, AND keep the top of their refrigerator up to the standards of the latest loywanabe to visit the area..
So, in PRACTICAL terms, doesn't this categorization of a group of people as "sinful" or being some kind of living spiritual treachery at worst, or godless.. or from whom one must make up for lack of believing or spiritual attack by much prayer, intercession and the like..or to regard them as a (or the) cause of some woe, or such.. doesn't it sound kinda, well, "Wayish"?
I really am glad for your post Ham,
Many leaders both religious and worldly have needed to manufacture enemies to have people follow them. Personally, I am not nearly as upset when a country or a politician does it as when a minister does it.
If it is true that as we judge, so shall we be judged then it looks like TWI leadership is in deep.
Dear Geisha779,
Thank you again for your post, but especially your points.
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Keith
All I know is the the bible says "the goodness of God leads to repentance." most likely paraphased. So I treat them homosexuals, the same way I would want to be treated.
Hate never brings a person to God. Nobody should ever be treated with hatefully.
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cheranne
Here is how this thread sounds to me,I found this in Door Magazine
In a surprise announcement earlier today, Focus on the Family ended their long, tumultuous association with the LORD GOD, a.k.a. Adonai, due to what they are describing as His hidden gay agenda. Spokesman Lad Eesman claims that from Genesis to Revelation there is a shocking emphasis on the goodness of the whole creation.
Eesman gave the following statement to the press: "Those verses in Genesis 1 that keep repeating 'God saw it, and it was good'—that's the original source of this New Age baloney, 'It's All Good.' Well, it's not. It's mostly evil masquerading as good, and that's what we're here to protect … I mean to stop. We're here to protect the family.
"The first strong recognition of this deity's gay sympathies came during staff Bible study about a week ago when we were confronted with the rainbow as the sign of God's covenant with Noah. A freakin' rainbow! And what kind of a guy's name is Noah, anyway? How can we born again Christians overlook this? God is omniscient and omnipotent, for Pete's sake. He didn't have to use a symbol that He knew would eventually represent gays.
"As we began to discuss this hidden agenda, we also realized that God has always identified with the same symbol that outed that gay Teletubby—the triangle. It's supposed to mean that God is 3 in 1, but really, how far is that from the gay idea of "unity in diversity"? Is it an accident that God is triune? God could be 2 in 1, or 4 in 1, but instead God is a trinity, represented by what we now know is the gay triangle. No, we're not exactly sure why triangles are gay, but we don't have to be sure to know when we find truth. Gay triangles probably have something to do with the Greeks—they were big mathematicians and homosexuals. And we all know that the New Testament was written in Greek. We can't deny these homosexual affiliations any longer.
"For us, the most painful part of this breakup with God is that it has not come sooner. If we hadn't been so distracted with religion we could have paid a lot more attention to the homosexual forces causing the breakdown of society all around us. While we have been leading Bible studies, the Hostess Corporation has been blatantly producing Twinkies, Ho-Hos, Zingers, and Ding-Dongs—all clearly designed to desensitize our children to gayness. Yesterday, with tears in his eyes, James Dobson admitted that he had given big, pink, puffy Hostess Snoballs to his own children. Today Focus on the Family is sickened that through our neglect we have willingly participated in giving homosexual junk food to children. We have not even begun to fight Froot Loops, the ubiquitous 'sprinkles,' and all those talking Veggies with no pants."
After these remarks, a Focus on the Family staffer quietly led the highly agitated Mr. Eesman out of the room. Journalists standing closest to the exit claimed to hear him whispering, "the horror … the horror."
Dr. Dobson was not available for comment, other than to issue a printed statement, faxed to both Fox News and legitimate media outlets:
"We are calling on all Christians to close ranks—figuratively speaking— and join with us to oppose both activist judges and this shocking homosexual agenda. And for you liberals out there, I'll draw your attention to Galatians 3:28—'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' You will notice that nowhere in that verse does it say 'neither straight nor gay.'"
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JeffSjo
Dear Rhino and Jen-o,
Yelling, I'm so sorry, that was not my intent. I'm new to computers in general and didn't know that capitalization can mean yelling, sorry.
But my intention was to point out that condemning homosexuals because you believe that homosexuality is sin is wrong, and actually brings judgment from God onto yourself. I did not mean to point a finger at anyone here, but if someone thinks that I'm pointing a finger at them they are free to object to my point.
For the record Jen-o, I'm not pointing a finger at you. I have met Christians who fit the shoes that I shared about however, and I have been known to run out of patience with them if they're persecuting homosexuals however. I have been known to exhibit real anger under those circumstances.
Dear Doojable,
Thank you for pointing out that maybe I wasn't angry.
Dear Geisha779,
I'm glad that you posted on this topic, I wouldn't mind hearing some more from you at all. I think the subject of how a Christian should treat homosexuals is a much more relevant discussion than is it good, bad, or something else. I think how you treat homosexuals is a gem that's worth a lot more than two cents IMO.
Dear Bramble,
Do I understand you correctly that you are homosexual? I believe it is my responsibility to treat you with respect whether you are or not. Even though I do not believe that homosexuality is a good thing in and of itself, I hope that I would not treat you in any way at all badly if we were to meat out in the world or here at the Greasespot.
(edited for grammar)
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JeffSjo
Dear Oklahoma City WOW 78,
I will have nothing to do with these things spoken of in this article.
It seems to close to the same attitude of presumed superiority that my little splinter group had when they wrecked my life. I think that I'd rather be the Christian who tells them that their so-called Christian agenda for society is out of step with biblical Christianity.
I believe that within the church Christians are free to figure things out and do the best they can in regards to these issues, but to try to reform culture at large is pointless at best; and developes dangerous, harmful, and hateful attitudes at worst. Whatever happened to "Wise as serpents and HARMLESS as doves" anyway. Doctrinally this is about the best way that I know to approach not just this topic, but pretty much all of them.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
P.S.
I'll have to stop in about ten minutes, but I wish that I could stay and talk longer.
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Bramble
Heehee Jeff. No I am not a homosexual. I'm hetero, married almost 20 years with three teenagers. In TWi from college to my forties, I am now pagan/Wiccan. I know quite a few gay people in my community due to the pagan connections.
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Eyesopen
Jeff dear, I think what OK City posted was a joke..if it wasnt it should be as I was laughing like crazy!
Have to admit tho there were some interesting correlations drawn in that little 'article'.
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jen-o
hi jeff!
no problemo...
it just sounded like you were mad at someone...
but maybe you are mad at folks who condemn homosexuals (since you mention that you've run across these kinds of people)
but i still haven't seen anyone here at the greasespot condemning or persecuting homosexuals...
actually, i haven't run across anyone who is persecuting homosexuals...
(it is just not the politically correct thing to do)
although i think that it does seem to be open season for condemning christians...
anyway, not a problem...
peace, my friend,
jen-o
p.s. (not directed to jeff)
the bit from the door magazine was suppose to be funny??
it just sounded like a bunch of rambling mindless nonsense...
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GarthP2000
I read this thread and I notice that the one thing that nobody (particularly the bible believing fundamentalists) will even consider touching is the possibility that the bible just might be wrong/flawed/erroneous/lacking in information as to its take on homosexuality. Ie., they read various scriptures as regarding homosexuality, and they take it as science. As irrevocable Truth that just cannot be challenged whatsoever. Particularly in dealing with homosexuality as an abomination.
Why? And why this topic? ... Many of you bible believers have shown some flexibility (at least in your behavior in life) as regards other 'sins' mentioned in the bible. ... Gluttony. Adultery. Stealing. Dismissing the poor. Greed. Etc. (<-- Basically, if the shoe fits, wear it) A lot of fundamentalists give lip service at saying "Oh yeah! Those are sins too." but (when nobody at your church is looking) there seems to be more behavior that is tolerant of said 'sins'.
But as far as homosexuality itself, aside from the obligatory goosesteppi--err I mean, mindles--ahh rather obedient loyalty to the "It Is Written" concept towards the Scriptures, ... how is it that homosexuals are indeed deviant (and I mean in a harmful manner too), immoral, a threat to the American Family, and where the allowance of homosexuality will spell the gloom and doom of our country as we know it!?
Where is the solid evidence of all this? Again, sorry, but quotes from the bible just doesn't cut it, any more than using the bible as an 'alternative' science text dealing with the beginnings of the earth and the universe. <_< Please demonstrate the _facts_ that justify why homosexuals must be dealt with as tho' what they do is so harmful, or why homosexuals asking for _equal protection and treatment under the law_ somehow amounts to 'special rights'?
Wordwolf, Rhino, et al, you guys whine--err talk about the 'uncivil' discourse in this thread, and maybe you're correct in the immediate sense, ... to a degree. But have you guys ever stop to think as to all the _real_ reasons why there are a lot of 'homo supporters' who bitch like we do as to this topic? Do you really think that its mainly due to us all shaking out collective fists at God and wanting to live a deviant, immoral, abusive lifestyle or to support those that do? Do you guys really think that we are just out to 'get you and persecute you' for your undying Christian faith? (Gad! Whatta bunch of drama queens you all are if that's the case!
)
And frankly I think that a little dose of 'uncivility' is good in an open exchange of ideas. It's part of our human nature, and its part of a free society. And it's even sometimes part of the expression of opinions held by the so-called 'civil' people,
especially when they are speaking that which they believe in.
Keeps things from getting boring in any event.
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Bramble
If homosexuals are all so deviant in their sex lives and practices, then why do they want to get married, anyway/ Wouldn't that put a damper on free wheeling promiscouos lifestyles?
if your doctrine demands the impossible of people--change your sexual orientation--or a lifestle that you yourself don't have to live--you didn't change so no sex/lovers/spouse ever for you!-- then you should expect people will want to know exactly how this doctrine helps the homosexual live a blessed and abundant life.
Because it looks like you are asking the impossible and then condemning people as abombinations and sinners for not meeting your standard.
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geisha779
Hi Again,
Politically correct? Expedient? Or gentle, loving and kind. There is a big difference. It is expedient to say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality--everyone has a right--I don't care what people do in their own bedrooms. It is politically correct to support "Gay Rights" or join Rosies Cruise and march on pride day.
It is gentle, loving and kind to reach out to those who are lost--anyone who is lost.
I remember when I realised that God is HOLY and JUST! Post Way. It scared the H out of me--quite literally. But, not knowing Jesus from Adam, I set out to save myself with acts and words of righteousness. I was going to save everyone else as well. Turns out they were self-righteous works and words. I ran around telling people what God says is right and wrong. Nothing wrong with that--if I had done it in love, motivated by God's AMAZING graciousness. I was motivated by fear and frustration that people didn't see a Holy and frankly SCARY God.
He loves everyone right? I heard that alot. How can he condemn when He loves. He is Holy (A bad word in TWI) He cannot abide sin--he cannot tempt with evil and none of us--Not a one can stand before Him on our own merit. Each one of us needs a Saviour. Someone who is perfect and accepted on His merits--to stand in our place. We have been freely offered such an awesome gift. That is love.
If you liken God to a HUGE-POWERFUL - Storm--something you cannot stand-up in or control--You can liken Jesus to the sweet dry and tender shelter provided in that storm. A place to be loved and accepted.
If you see others out in the storm staggering -- unable to find shelter---do you yell out their sin to them in hopes they will change and make their own little shelter? Or do you reach out and say look--there is a way to be safe and loved. Here it is--join us. When we enter such a place we find the most amazing love and peace. We are drawn to such an unspeakably kind, merciful and loving presence. When we see that love --our hearts yearn to love Him back and to obey His words. That is how we change. Being accepted and loved. We love Him because He first loved us.
God never defends His existence. He declares it. He doesn't beg us for our obedience-He expects it. He doesn't call us to condemn--He calls us to love.
There is no condemnation of Christians here. Not any that I have seen. If you want to see what a persecuted Christian looks like--Go to the VOM (Voice of the Martyrs) website. While you are there--pick up a pen and paper and write a prisoner in chains for his or her faith. Otherwise--I would just suck up the few little comments here or there. We were all in a very destuctive and nasty cult--many still stagger in the storm. It is a different journey for each here. Have a little confidence that God is able.
Another two cents please!
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rhino
I see adulterers gets slammed here quite strongly ... I have not seen homosexuals get slammed. I'm guessing most think thieves should be punished ... I don't seen anyone calling for homosexuals to be punished. Are you just making things up here?
congrats ... you got the Hitler attack in there along with a TWI thinking accusation ...
A threat to the American family? I guess you are referring to the majority that don't want same sex marriage ... yet overall I think a majority do support civil unions.
Are you offering any solid evidence?Who said they had to be dealt with as harmful?
Should homosexuals be listed as a protected civil rights group? That seems like "special rights".
Should schools be required to teach that homosexual behavior is moral?
Should business be required to fulfill a quota of homosexuals in their offices.
There are many ramifications to listing homosexuals as a civil rights group. They already have the right to equal protection under the law. That is not enough for some that are leading the charge on this.
Maybe if you could stop your eyeballs from going in circles you could grasp this more readily.
Well you have shown what YOU think ...
You made up that whole dramatic spiel from your own imagination ... doesn't that make YOU the drama queen?
Clearly you think "uncivility" is good ... but in a request to have a civil discourse, it seemed odd to me to point out that you would "rot in h@ll" if you presented certain beliefs. Nobody has condemned homosexuals .. yet others have been condemned for holding what others have judged to be harmful beliefs.
I guess you haven't been paying attention Garth ... I haven't thumped a Bible in over 20 years (I don't recall ever "thumping"). My concern is more that political correctness is trumping the good morals of many.
Why should homosexuals get a special legal classification as a protected group? This would give them more legal clout than the "normal" citizen in court regarding jobs, housing, whatever.
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Ham
This might be a little off topic, maybe not.. mabe it's how NOT to treat a homosexual..
I'm not angry. These are just a few observations.
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1505/features/lia2.htm
I think loy boy's paranoia and inquistion was as primitive. I mean, we all *know* that "god" wants to *bless* us with more abundance than we possibly could know what to do with in one lifetime, eh?
Well.. something's gotta be "wrong". Lessee.. what's "wrong" in America..
It's.. liberals. Yeah.. one "twig" in an offshoot I was lightly involved with said so. Why, you might not turn "homo" overnight, but such beliefs would open you up to devilish influences..
It's the practioners of Wicca. Sure, that's gotta be it.. making room for all kinds of debils..
maybe it's the Jews, like in Nazi Germany.. they got the blame for practically all of Germany's woe..
forget that the Kaiser bit off more than he could chew, got his donkey kicked..
I would say that most of us here were subjected to the same kind of categorization, fault, and blame.
what was "wrong" with the old ministry..
had to be the "homos".. they were the "biblical" number one target.. loy ran them off.. and did things get better? The skies turn from bronze to silver?
Then those considered "weak", "compromised" to the extent they wouldn't hand over fifteen percent of their income..
Then those "unproductive".. those who couldn't sell loyboy's package to the masses..
Then those in debt.. that's gotta be the problem.. get out of debt, or get out..
Then those who couldn't keep up with a family, two, three kids or more, clean leader's houses, AND keep the top of their refrigerator up to the standards of the latest loywanabe to visit the area..
So, in PRACTICAL terms, doesn't this categorization of a group of people as "sinful" or being some kind of living spiritual treachery at worst, or godless.. or from whom one must make up for lack of believing or spiritual attack by much prayer, intercession and the like..or to regard them as a (or the) cause of some woe, or such.. doesn't it sound kinda, well, "Wayish"?
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JeffSjo
Dear Bramble,
I am very glad that I did not offend you by missreading your "I'm out" comment on your post, and I'm glad that I asked too.
Dear Jen-o,
I think the fact that I have seen Christians condemning homosexuals led to my post carrying through with some of that anger, but I am glad that it didn't disrupt the point of this thread.
Peace right back at you too friend Jen-o.
I really am glad for your post Ham,
Many leaders both religious and worldly have needed to manufacture enemies to have people follow them. Personally, I am not nearly as upset when a country or a politician does it as when a minister does it.
If it is true that as we judge, so shall we be judged then it looks like TWI leadership is in deep.
Dear Geisha779,
Thank you again for your post, but especially your points.
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