while i havent read his book, and ive only googled the rabbi
the many good points arising in this thread already seem very familiar to me
ive talked with and heard from and practiced with and read a number of different rabbis in the years since twi
many in the context of hospice, history, and medicine
...a lot of good stuff there
i especially like the kind of rabbis who can talk and eat with catholics and buddhists and hindus and hopi and such...all monks and nuns
...as if the "kingdom of God" is some very elaborate bar joke
and i have especially come to appreciate jewish wisdom and history for things such as:
+ the very vital roles of effective rites of passage and rituals in birthing, aging and dying and all the spiritual stages of life in between them
+ the critical distinctions between theology/theory and spiritually transforming practices/disciplines
+ a full body of spiritual practices... via breath, via the heart and breath, via dreams, via martial arts, via holy days, via song and dance and art, via diet, via contemplation, via envisioning, via the arts of dialogue, etc...the usual perennial suspects
+ and 4 millenia (or so) of profound interfaith and interreligious activity all around the globe
to me, these elements are all integrated and very mutually supportive and resonate with the hundreds of very good points ive read in this thread
i would even go as far as to say that they (rites, ritual, practice, dialogue, etc...) help "unfold" what one might call our "ethical line of development"
...which is also what invites those occasions of authentic interreligious and interdisciplinary and intergenerational dialogue in the first place
then on to stimulating peace on earth, good will towards all humanity...yada yada yada
...
to "be holy" is to "become whole"
which is really about "becoming all together here now"
by noticing and including all the various parts at play in your "self"
...parts we will find are simply already always here, hiding in shadows, waiting to feel the simplest light of our attention
(((((+odd))))) so good to see you! And, as usual, you contribute greatly to the discussion.
My brother maintains that those things we do not like in others are generally reflections of aspects of our own that we do not like. :) Interesting perspective and, in some cases, I believe that to be true. It's much easier to be angry with someone else than with ourselves.
Is it that we're holding others to the standard we, ourselves wish we would attain?
That theory does fall flat, however, when we judge someone who is a rapist, child abuser, murderer, etc. as most of us do not (I hope!) have those issues.
Likewise, I try to strive to consider that each person is doing the best they can. Their best may not be the same as mine and on certain days our "best" is going to be better than other days. Again, that seems to fall short in many ways, when considering the depraved individual.
The person who cuts us off in traffic, to continue with that example, is simply doing the best they can - e.g. they don't know how to drive any better, they are helplessly selfish when behind the wheel, they are doing their best to get home to a sick child, they didn't mean to do it, didn't realize they did it, etc.... doesn't matter - when we consider that they are doing the best they can, it makes it a bit easier, as Lindy said, to not be so angry. That anger does nothing to help anyone.
It does seem to me that every religion/belief system in the world boils down to "love" - loving your fellow man and, usually, whatever "god" is at the center of that system.
Its great to see you Sir! :) Some great thoughts in your post. To become holy is to become whole. But it isn't simply about the individual becoming whole (or as we were taught in TWI - body, soul, and then spirit makes us whole) it is about the COMMUNITY becoming whole. That is the glue that holds Judaism together - not doctrine or theology.
Ask any two Jews a theological or doctrinal question and you will probably get at least 3 answers. :). I have started reading a second book called "To Life" by Harold Kushner. He made an interesting point, in that before Judaism was a religion, it was a people, a community - the ritual and religion came later. Much later, really.
The laws weren't written so we could show our blind allegiance and obedience to a power tripping God, they were written so we could successfully live together as a community. God would rather we show our love to each other than to Him. Hence, there are exceptions to the laws and examples of when someone was right and justified in breaking them. It isn't supposed to be black and white - it can't be, because we are not.
And yes, I guess the rituals are important, I just haven't yet learned enough about them for all of them to have significance to me. :) I think another part of the idea behind the rituals is to live life in its fullest. To not just be happy but to be full of joy - to celebrate. To not just mourn, but to really deeply grieve - to cry, scream. To experience every part of it!
Anyway, I am still going to work my way through this book, and I may still post things on this thread as I am moved to do so. But in all honesty, I am find this book to be a bit of a sleeper - sort of elementary with very few "ah ha!" moments. The introduction was great and really hooked me, but now I sort of feel like I am sitting in a Sunday School classroom with a group of children. In fact, this book would probably be an excellant read for the kids if it were pared down a bit.
Still, I think there will be some good stuff in there, but my mind needs something a bit more than I am finding in it, so I will read a few pages a day here and there and work my way through the book (mentioned earlier in this post) that Sushi brought home from the library.
I will say this though - one of the reasons why I wanted to read this book was because I do want to teach my kids - another reason why I will stick with it, too. But as I was reading the other book, I realized something . . .
In Judaism, the kids go to Hebrew school from a young age, but most of what they learn is not so different than what I already try to teach them at home and in many respects not so different than what any kid in any Sunday School setting would learn. Then the kid goes through the Bar or Bat Mitzvah and the school ends. This is truly sad, because the reality is that they aren't really even mature enough to learn what it truly means to be/ live as a Jew (and probably this would be true in Christianity or any other religion) until they have reached that age of Bar or Bat Mitzvah.
So, I will continue to do what I've been doing. I may add some things here and there, but I think until they reach an age where they can really comprehend and question and put together some of this stuff, I don't need to worry about it too much. And by that age they will be mature enough to sit through Shabbat services, to ask questions about them, etc. . . .
hi abi and all
good thread
a lot of good points
thanks all
while i havent read his book, and ive only googled the rabbi
the many good points arising in this thread already seem very familiar to me
ive talked with and heard from and practiced with and read a number of different rabbis in the years since twi
many in the context of hospice, history, and medicine
...a lot of good stuff there
i especially like the kind of rabbis who can talk and eat with catholics and buddhists and hindus and hopi and such...all monks and nuns
...as if the "kingdom of God" is some very elaborate bar joke
and i have especially come to appreciate jewish wisdom and history for things such as:
+ the very vital roles of effective rites of passage and rituals in birthing, aging and dying and all the spiritual stages of life in between them
+ the critical distinctions between theology/theory and spiritually transforming practices/disciplines
+ a full body of spiritual practices... via breath, via the heart and breath, via dreams, via martial arts, via holy days, via song and dance and art, via diet, via contemplation, via envisioning, via the arts of dialogue, etc...the usual perennial suspects
+ and 4 millenia (or so) of profound interfaith and interreligious activity all around the globe
to me, these elements are all integrated and very mutually supportive and resonate with the hundreds of very good points ive read in this thread
i would even go as far as to say that they (rites, ritual, practice, dialogue, etc...) help "unfold" what one might call our "ethical line of development"
...which is also what invites those occasions of authentic interreligious and interdisciplinary and intergenerational dialogue in the first place
then on to stimulating peace on earth, good will towards all humanity...yada yada yada
...
to "be holy" is to "become whole"
which is really about "becoming all together here now"
by noticing and including all the various parts at play in your "self"
...parts we will find are simply already always here, hiding in shadows, waiting to feel the simplest light of our attention
though i'm not writing/posting much of anything anywhere these days
i found this thread to be a bit too compelling to pass up
but i do only have a few minutes to write
...
as ive often written around here before
effective rites of passage help mark the natural changes of life
and serve to give us permission to move along...transform
but without such effective rites, we continue to age, but do not transform
which is why such a large percentage of adults today live like children
and its becoming harder and harder for children to find wise elders for guidance
i feel that if we can somehow begin to find and remember the important role of story and ritual and rites
we can prepare this generation of children to become those wise elders we seem to lack today
in part, by holding space for them to begin to peer into their own shadows to get used to a more whole view of "self"
...
a few wikipedia links that seem to relate...
Rite of Passage...universal to all the world's great wisdom traditions.
Ritual. Of course its not enough just to learn traditional rituals. Learning the reasons and dynamics of ritual enable us to create ritual in times of joy and in times of sorrow, in times of peace and in times of trouble. Rituals help the participants step outside of "everyday time," giving us a fresh perspective of our experience.
here are a few wikipedia articles on some luminaries whose lives seem to flow with the themes of this thread:
Todd, I think you may very well be right about the significance of rituals. First, though, the rituals must have meaning to the individual.
I think, the Chabad website where I had been studying has a lot of very wonderful information. But some of it is just too literal for me - I can't buy in. I have found a book, however, written by a Conservative Rabbi, that explains the rituals in a way that has more meaning to me.
effective rites of passage help mark the natural changes of life
and serve to give us permission to move along...transform
but without such effective rites, we continue to age, but do not transform
which is why such a large percentage of adults today live like children
and its becoming harder and harder for children to find wise elders for guidance
i feel that if we can somehow begin to find and remember the important role of story and ritual and rites
we can prepare this generation of children to become those wise elders we seem to lack today
in part, by holding space for them to begin to peer into their own shadows to get used to a more whole view of "self"
Wow, +odd. Dunno how I missed that - or maybe wasn't ready to see - anyway.... Makes sense... I've never thought of rites of passage as permission to transform. I *have* seen it as a "shoving to change" though. "You're 18 now, be an adult" kind of thing.
What rites do you think we've lost today that are the reason adults are acting like children?
Belle...a deep thank you for this direct, non-loaded question.
What rites do you think we've lost today that are the reason adults are acting like children?
All of them, sadly. Birthing rites, male initiation rites, midlife rites, sage-ing and eldering rites, death rites, etc... But not that we've lost them entirely, just that the versions we have are much much less effective. Almost non. They dont functionally allow us to move through the natural stages of life. So we age, but dont age.
And it doesnt help that most of our parents most likely missed the rites as well, and so simply did not know. We are indeed reeling from at least a century or so of radical cultural changes that we are not very aware of. And that our cultural inheritance is very rich in some ways actually works against us if it is very poor in others.
So, in general, most are unable to fail with grace, unable to grieve without shame, unable to lose without vengeance, unable to connect, unable to age with grace, and are in extreme denial of our very mortality. The natural egocentricity of a toddler lasts far too long into adulthood, which contributes to extreme magical thinking and narcissism. The natural ethnocentricity of a child lasts far too long into adulthood, which contributes to cultic grouping and mythic fundamentalism (jewish, christian, muslim or other). Being hellbent on endless progress and endless growth is a sure sign of a teenage mind who missed a male initiation rite. As the ancients might say "Woe to the culture whose uninitiated boys also miss the rites of midlife." Because this is how we get victory-only minded leaders like Hitler. Or, at the risk of offending some...childish leaders like VPW or LCM.
One good thing, is that hundred of thousands of years of evolutionary conditioning cannot be erased by a few centuries of neglect. In other words, it does not take centuries to relearn all this. Our intuitions are active, alive and well. Most all of what one might read and learn about rites of passage (and ritual) can tap into our deep memory and have us nodding our head and jumping back in the saddle quite easily.
Re-cognition. Seems Saint Peter wrote much about such drawing latent wisdom from within others, rather than teaching them something new. Makes me wonder if Jesus and his contemporaries were involved in reviving ancient Jewish rites of passage in a culture that had forgotten.
I wish i could sit and write more, as i feel i have left too much out and written overly simple. Maybe some day I'll win the space and time to write a bona-fide book on such things. Although there is no guarantee i will. Besides, I feel i do better talking than writing anyway.
Abi, here is something I read from Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living Christ" that seems to add to the overall topic of this thread. He is writing about insight into "inter-being."
When we look into the heart of a flower, we see clouds, sunshine, minerals, time, the earth, and everything else in the cosmos in it. Without clouds, there would be no rain, and there would be no flower. Without time, the flower could not bloom. In fact, the flower is made entirely of non-flower elements; it has no independent, individual existence. It "inter-is" with everything else in the universe.
Just as a flower is made only of non-flower elements, Buddhism is made only of non-Buddhist elements, including Christian ones, and Christianity is made of non-Christian elements, including Buddhist ones.
This reminded me of what it is to practice a "holy view" or "view of the whole."
First, though, the rituals must have meaning to the individual.
i agree, but want to take it a few steps further by writing out what have been described to me by ritual elders as necessary elements of effective ritual:
+ Story. The ritual must help my personal story of meaning somehow connect to the larger story.
+ Community. The ritual helps reflect a mutual experience involving more than any single person.
+ Symbol. The ritual utilizes a metaphor to translate the ordinary into the sacred and transcendent.
+ Action. The ritual involves physical contact with the symbol and some sort of activity.
+ Space. The ritual takes place in an environment where time can be transcended.
A ritual "space holder" creates a ritual "from scratch" that effectively include at least all of these elements.
Here are a few more notes on ritual some of you may appreciate...
- As normalcy decreases, the need for ritual increases. As normalcy returns, the need for ritual decreases.
- Effective ritual must naturally emerge from a person's spirit and connect to symbols that are real and meaningful.
- The role of "ritualizer" is to be a "mid-wife" or "threshold person."
- Listen and accept the truth of another's experience before creating ritual.
- Modernity has replaced ritual with ceremony.
- Ritual has the power to move us from the inessential to the essential, from the peripheral to the center, and from the surface to the depth.
- Its easier to know ritual more from its effect than its definition.
- Ritual can be described as the art of translating the ordinary into the sacred.
- Ritual moves us from a literal to a transcendent state.
- Ritual moves us from "yes" to "no" to "yes" again.
again...over-simplified and incomplete, but enough to help anyone understand some of the differences between empty routine and transformative ritual for times of change.
Great stuff, Sir Todd – and thanks for that link to Rites of Change…I haven't thought about rituals in a long time – but I see their value from what you've said. Effective ritual draws something out of the person – but it's not taking something away from them – maybe more like helping the person fully engage the experience.
I like the opening paragraph on that link:
"Life is made up of constant change and some change is more significant than others. Ritual is a way that we can acknowledge the significant changes in our lives. A rite of passage is an intentional process that moves us from where we are to where we are headed."
Some of the rites were familiar to me [moving to adolescence, birthdays, weddings, etc.] but further down the page there's a bunch that really struck my interest – on career change, supporting therapy, letting go of anger, mid-life adjustments, prep for surgery & dealing with illness, etc…I'm thinking these are ways to …don't know how to articulate it…was going to say "transcend" – but maybe it's not so much me rising above the situation as much as me taking it all in…becoming aware of all details - which includes my responses/feelings. Embracing it all…dealing with it head-on…being spiritual…being holy…being whole…being totally connected to the experience.
This is a very deep topic and surprisingly enjoyable to follow. Thanks, Abigail for a great thread…your posts/threads are so thought provoking…and great input by everyone else too!
I'm thinking these are ways to …don't know how to articulate it…was going to say "transcend" – but maybe it's not so much me rising above the situation as much as me taking it all in…becoming aware of all details - which includes my responses/feelings. Embracing it all…dealing with it head-on…being spiritual…being holy…being whole…being totally connected to the experience.
sounds true...
like...
to first transcend
and then embrace what has been transcended
where rising above the whole situation is what enables us to "take it all in" in the first place
because mere transcendance is not enough...necessary, but not sufficient
to try and "deal with it head-on" without first "rising above"
is not being whole...but being in part
and leaves us "shadow-boxing" with truth fragments
...
it seems we progress through stages of life and consciousness like that...
where each step outside of our "sense of self" gives us a more whole view of who we are becoming in the first place
until we no longer "see through a glass darkly"
...but see face-to-face ...in a clear bright mirror
by way of a series of many small deaths and resurrections
a full-spectrum dance of ascensions and descensions
a marriage of masculine and feminine forms of divine love
This sub-topic discussion of teenage "old people" is right on, in my opinion.
Energetically speaking we need to be resolving energetic issues - energetically. But most people do not know how to do such in their lives. Therefore, most people do no such thing; generally people blame others for what moves in their OWN hearts. This is vey immature and irresponsible. Yet, we see it all around us. Road rage. Politics. Even people who stay ....ed a life time because of some offense (which is living in them). Without the guidance of the mature people in our lives, we simply ride the not-so-merry-go-round again and again.
The energy which pumps through one's body when we are teenagers is not to be enshrined. It was to be resolved - transformed if you prefer - - when and if we resolve it - it will not be abandoned. But it will morph into the next phase of development. The energy of a teen, properly matured and transformed – will blossom into the next phase and so on.
But it is in the aspect of the transformation phase where people seem to get lost... we wait for others to transform us because we do not know how to do it. We find others who want our energy – but can not help us. Still we recapitulate or re-visit those energies again and again. But when we do, we only find we are gaining more and more neurosis through this process and are resolving little or nothing.
Recapitulation is something we see in the development of stages of the embryo and has good scientific footing. It means: The principle that living organisms develop only from other living organisms and not from nonliving matter. I bring it up as a metaphor. We develop our next phase of energetic living from these living energies in us, now.
We (Western Man) may appear to be "stuck" in perpetual puberty thinking and feeling... but maybe we are merely recapitulating. :) If we would resolve instead of try and re-capture the youthful feelings we would no longer need to recapitulate that feeling state. We could move on.
Yeah, TGN, and I don't think it's a matter of loosing anything of the great things of youth or it's many virtues and living qualities. But capitalizing on them and being able to see another step with clearness and decisive progress into new things. Though not fully known but certainly seen and then experienced and living with more vision and perception.
Cman, Agreed. Not loosing one's youth - but having the energy of it "roll-over" and be part of the transformation to the next phase.
Let me talk to myself here - not directing this towards any poster or post in particular... Just a bunch of rhetorical questions.
In my metaphor of Recapitulation one could say it offers a basis for the book which started this thread: Ye Shall Be Holy.
Now I have not read the book. Just pointing at the phrase - the title. How is it that we become holy? Performance? Keeping of external behavior rules? Being infused with holy spirit? New Birth? (Of course, most of us on these boards spent years with a pre-packaged answer to that question of "how" - God makes you Holy - period.). Is it not possible for one to become holy by multiple means and processes? Must there be only one answer or component in this process?
A tragedy of Christianity, IMO is the notion that Jesus did it (does it) all -
When it comes to dealing with the energy which is in one's own heart - we have a very significant role to play. And the energy which is in us has a huge bearing upon our performance and our becoming.
Can one become or Shall Be Holy by some means which includes paying no attention to transforming what is within?
As SG said, a moment to light all the candles and a lifetime to open all the seals. Certainly, transforming what is within us is one of those life-time type of events... which can and does from time to time, happen in a moment.
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sirguessalot
hi abi and all
good thread
a lot of good points
thanks all
while i havent read his book, and ive only googled the rabbi
the many good points arising in this thread already seem very familiar to me
ive talked with and heard from and practiced with and read a number of different rabbis in the years since twi
many in the context of hospice, history, and medicine
...a lot of good stuff there
i especially like the kind of rabbis who can talk and eat with catholics and buddhists and hindus and hopi and such...all monks and nuns
...as if the "kingdom of God" is some very elaborate bar joke
and i have especially come to appreciate jewish wisdom and history for things such as:
+ the very vital roles of effective rites of passage and rituals in birthing, aging and dying and all the spiritual stages of life in between them
+ the critical distinctions between theology/theory and spiritually transforming practices/disciplines
+ a full body of spiritual practices... via breath, via the heart and breath, via dreams, via martial arts, via holy days, via song and dance and art, via diet, via contemplation, via envisioning, via the arts of dialogue, etc...the usual perennial suspects
+ and 4 millenia (or so) of profound interfaith and interreligious activity all around the globe
to me, these elements are all integrated and very mutually supportive and resonate with the hundreds of very good points ive read in this thread
i would even go as far as to say that they (rites, ritual, practice, dialogue, etc...) help "unfold" what one might call our "ethical line of development"
...which is also what invites those occasions of authentic interreligious and interdisciplinary and intergenerational dialogue in the first place
then on to stimulating peace on earth, good will towards all humanity...yada yada yada
...
to "be holy" is to "become whole"
which is really about "becoming all together here now"
by noticing and including all the various parts at play in your "self"
...parts we will find are simply already always here, hiding in shadows, waiting to feel the simplest light of our attention
...
still flickering
+ODD
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Belle
(((((+odd))))) so good to see you! And, as usual, you contribute greatly to the discussion.
My brother maintains that those things we do not like in others are generally reflections of aspects of our own that we do not like. :) Interesting perspective and, in some cases, I believe that to be true. It's much easier to be angry with someone else than with ourselves.
Is it that we're holding others to the standard we, ourselves wish we would attain?
That theory does fall flat, however, when we judge someone who is a rapist, child abuser, murderer, etc. as most of us do not (I hope!) have those issues.
Likewise, I try to strive to consider that each person is doing the best they can. Their best may not be the same as mine and on certain days our "best" is going to be better than other days. Again, that seems to fall short in many ways, when considering the depraved individual.
The person who cuts us off in traffic, to continue with that example, is simply doing the best they can - e.g. they don't know how to drive any better, they are helplessly selfish when behind the wheel, they are doing their best to get home to a sick child, they didn't mean to do it, didn't realize they did it, etc.... doesn't matter - when we consider that they are doing the best they can, it makes it a bit easier, as Lindy said, to not be so angry. That anger does nothing to help anyone.
It does seem to me that every religion/belief system in the world boils down to "love" - loving your fellow man and, usually, whatever "god" is at the center of that system.
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Abigail
Its great to see you Sir! :) Some great thoughts in your post. To become holy is to become whole. But it isn't simply about the individual becoming whole (or as we were taught in TWI - body, soul, and then spirit makes us whole) it is about the COMMUNITY becoming whole. That is the glue that holds Judaism together - not doctrine or theology.
Ask any two Jews a theological or doctrinal question and you will probably get at least 3 answers. :). I have started reading a second book called "To Life" by Harold Kushner. He made an interesting point, in that before Judaism was a religion, it was a people, a community - the ritual and religion came later. Much later, really.
The laws weren't written so we could show our blind allegiance and obedience to a power tripping God, they were written so we could successfully live together as a community. God would rather we show our love to each other than to Him. Hence, there are exceptions to the laws and examples of when someone was right and justified in breaking them. It isn't supposed to be black and white - it can't be, because we are not.
And yes, I guess the rituals are important, I just haven't yet learned enough about them for all of them to have significance to me. :) I think another part of the idea behind the rituals is to live life in its fullest. To not just be happy but to be full of joy - to celebrate. To not just mourn, but to really deeply grieve - to cry, scream. To experience every part of it!
Anyway, I am still going to work my way through this book, and I may still post things on this thread as I am moved to do so. But in all honesty, I am find this book to be a bit of a sleeper - sort of elementary with very few "ah ha!" moments. The introduction was great and really hooked me, but now I sort of feel like I am sitting in a Sunday School classroom with a group of children. In fact, this book would probably be an excellant read for the kids if it were pared down a bit.
Still, I think there will be some good stuff in there, but my mind needs something a bit more than I am finding in it, so I will read a few pages a day here and there and work my way through the book (mentioned earlier in this post) that Sushi brought home from the library.
I will say this though - one of the reasons why I wanted to read this book was because I do want to teach my kids - another reason why I will stick with it, too. But as I was reading the other book, I realized something . . .
In Judaism, the kids go to Hebrew school from a young age, but most of what they learn is not so different than what I already try to teach them at home and in many respects not so different than what any kid in any Sunday School setting would learn. Then the kid goes through the Bar or Bat Mitzvah and the school ends. This is truly sad, because the reality is that they aren't really even mature enough to learn what it truly means to be/ live as a Jew (and probably this would be true in Christianity or any other religion) until they have reached that age of Bar or Bat Mitzvah.
So, I will continue to do what I've been doing. I may add some things here and there, but I think until they reach an age where they can really comprehend and question and put together some of this stuff, I don't need to worry about it too much. And by that age they will be mature enough to sit through Shabbat services, to ask questions about them, etc. . . .
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cman
Just the phrase
You shall be Holy
is quite interesting in itself
as if it's a definite
like there is no way you won't be
kindof like it's already done even
perhaps we have not looked at certain other perspectives here
is it possible that Genesis is not only the beginning but the end
as well as Revelations with it's great last phrases of healing and light
being not only the end but the beginning
and not to leave out any scripture from any inspired writings
like these things were already done sort of
you shall....
is that fore telling or just stating a fact that hasn't been realized
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Abigail
Interesting take, Cman and I agree. I think this entire life is the process of being and becoming holy. :)
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sirguessalot
thanks for the warm welcome abi and belle
and for the reflections
though i'm not writing/posting much of anything anywhere these days
i found this thread to be a bit too compelling to pass up
but i do only have a few minutes to write
...
as ive often written around here before
effective rites of passage help mark the natural changes of life
and serve to give us permission to move along...transform
but without such effective rites, we continue to age, but do not transform
which is why such a large percentage of adults today live like children
and its becoming harder and harder for children to find wise elders for guidance
i feel that if we can somehow begin to find and remember the important role of story and ritual and rites
we can prepare this generation of children to become those wise elders we seem to lack today
in part, by holding space for them to begin to peer into their own shadows to get used to a more whole view of "self"
...
a few wikipedia links that seem to relate...
Rite of Passage...universal to all the world's great wisdom traditions.
Ritual. Of course its not enough just to learn traditional rituals. Learning the reasons and dynamics of ritual enable us to create ritual in times of joy and in times of sorrow, in times of peace and in times of trouble. Rituals help the participants step outside of "everyday time," giving us a fresh perspective of our experience.
here are a few wikipedia articles on some luminaries whose lives seem to flow with the themes of this thread:
Rabbi Zalman Schachter Shalomi. Has done much work with "eldering" and "saging."
Father Richard Rohr. Worldwide, has done much work with rites of passage for men.
Martin Buber. Especially known for his work on the "I-Thou" relationship.
Victor Frankl. His book "Man's Search for Meaning" (first published in 1946) chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate.
Baal Shem Tov. Founder of Hasidic Judaism, and certainly a teacher of nondual panentheism.
i hope there are some links in here that lead to info that might help you parents with the kids
as well as perhaps stir our own memories, so that we look back and see where we missed a step
space and grace...
+ODD
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Abigail
Todd, I think you may very well be right about the significance of rituals. First, though, the rituals must have meaning to the individual.
I think, the Chabad website where I had been studying has a lot of very wonderful information. But some of it is just too literal for me - I can't buy in. I have found a book, however, written by a Conservative Rabbi, that explains the rituals in a way that has more meaning to me.
Perhaps some day I will get there yet. :)
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Belle
Wow, +odd. Dunno how I missed that - or maybe wasn't ready to see - anyway.... Makes sense... I've never thought of rites of passage as permission to transform. I *have* seen it as a "shoving to change" though.
"You're 18 now, be an adult" kind of thing.
What rites do you think we've lost today that are the reason adults are acting like children?
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sirguessalot
Belle...a deep thank you for this direct, non-loaded question.
All of them, sadly. Birthing rites, male initiation rites, midlife rites, sage-ing and eldering rites, death rites, etc... But not that we've lost them entirely, just that the versions we have are much much less effective. Almost non. They dont functionally allow us to move through the natural stages of life. So we age, but dont age.And it doesnt help that most of our parents most likely missed the rites as well, and so simply did not know. We are indeed reeling from at least a century or so of radical cultural changes that we are not very aware of. And that our cultural inheritance is very rich in some ways actually works against us if it is very poor in others.
So, in general, most are unable to fail with grace, unable to grieve without shame, unable to lose without vengeance, unable to connect, unable to age with grace, and are in extreme denial of our very mortality. The natural egocentricity of a toddler lasts far too long into adulthood, which contributes to extreme magical thinking and narcissism. The natural ethnocentricity of a child lasts far too long into adulthood, which contributes to cultic grouping and mythic fundamentalism (jewish, christian, muslim or other). Being hellbent on endless progress and endless growth is a sure sign of a teenage mind who missed a male initiation rite. As the ancients might say "Woe to the culture whose uninitiated boys also miss the rites of midlife." Because this is how we get victory-only minded leaders like Hitler. Or, at the risk of offending some...childish leaders like VPW or LCM.
One good thing, is that hundred of thousands of years of evolutionary conditioning cannot be erased by a few centuries of neglect. In other words, it does not take centuries to relearn all this. Our intuitions are active, alive and well. Most all of what one might read and learn about rites of passage (and ritual) can tap into our deep memory and have us nodding our head and jumping back in the saddle quite easily.
Re-cognition. Seems Saint Peter wrote much about such drawing latent wisdom from within others, rather than teaching them something new. Makes me wonder if Jesus and his contemporaries were involved in reviving ancient Jewish rites of passage in a culture that had forgotten.
I wish i could sit and write more, as i feel i have left too much out and written overly simple. Maybe some day I'll win the space and time to write a bona-fide book on such things. Although there is no guarantee i will. Besides, I feel i do better talking than writing anyway.
Here is another fair rites of passage link
...
Abi, here is something I read from Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living Christ" that seems to add to the overall topic of this thread. He is writing about insight into "inter-being."
This reminded me of what it is to practice a "holy view" or "view of the whole."
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sirguessalot
i agree, but want to take it a few steps further by writing out what have been described to me by ritual elders as necessary elements of effective ritual:
+ Story. The ritual must help my personal story of meaning somehow connect to the larger story.
+ Community. The ritual helps reflect a mutual experience involving more than any single person.
+ Symbol. The ritual utilizes a metaphor to translate the ordinary into the sacred and transcendent.
+ Action. The ritual involves physical contact with the symbol and some sort of activity.
+ Space. The ritual takes place in an environment where time can be transcended.
A ritual "space holder" creates a ritual "from scratch" that effectively include at least all of these elements.
Here are a few more notes on ritual some of you may appreciate...
- As normalcy decreases, the need for ritual increases. As normalcy returns, the need for ritual decreases.
- Effective ritual must naturally emerge from a person's spirit and connect to symbols that are real and meaningful.
- The role of "ritualizer" is to be a "mid-wife" or "threshold person."
- Listen and accept the truth of another's experience before creating ritual.
- Modernity has replaced ritual with ceremony.
- Ritual has the power to move us from the inessential to the essential, from the peripheral to the center, and from the surface to the depth.
- Its easier to know ritual more from its effect than its definition.
- Ritual can be described as the art of translating the ordinary into the sacred.
- Ritual moves us from a literal to a transcendent state.
- Ritual moves us from "yes" to "no" to "yes" again.
again...over-simplified and incomplete, but enough to help anyone understand some of the differences between empty routine and transformative ritual for times of change.
All Love,
+ODD
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cman
It seems that there are 12 rites of passage.
Perhaps more.
Digging deep into the net and ignoring the bs.
Reveals that for the most part these are not honored either.
Neither in most religions and societies.
Not honored as a rite and a godly part of life.
Instead of posting the numerous pages I found.
I'll just say the info is here and now, if we want to look in this direction.
As well as many things that we have not been aware of.
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T-Bone
Great stuff, Sir Todd – and thanks for that link to Rites of Change…I haven't thought about rituals in a long time – but I see their value from what you've said. Effective ritual draws something out of the person – but it's not taking something away from them – maybe more like helping the person fully engage the experience.
I like the opening paragraph on that link:
"Life is made up of constant change and some change is more significant than others. Ritual is a way that we can acknowledge the significant changes in our lives. A rite of passage is an intentional process that moves us from where we are to where we are headed."
Some of the rites were familiar to me [moving to adolescence, birthdays, weddings, etc.] but further down the page there's a bunch that really struck my interest – on career change, supporting therapy, letting go of anger, mid-life adjustments, prep for surgery & dealing with illness, etc…I'm thinking these are ways to …don't know how to articulate it…was going to say "transcend" – but maybe it's not so much me rising above the situation as much as me taking it all in…becoming aware of all details - which includes my responses/feelings. Embracing it all…dealing with it head-on…being spiritual…being holy…being whole…being totally connected to the experience.
This is a very deep topic and surprisingly enjoyable to follow. Thanks, Abigail for a great thread…your posts/threads are so thought provoking…and great input by everyone else too!
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sirguessalot
T-Bone...you wrote:
sounds true...
like...
to first transcend
and then embrace what has been transcended
where rising above the whole situation is what enables us to "take it all in" in the first place
because mere transcendance is not enough...necessary, but not sufficient
to try and "deal with it head-on" without first "rising above"
is not being whole...but being in part
and leaves us "shadow-boxing" with truth fragments
...
it seems we progress through stages of life and consciousness like that...
where each step outside of our "sense of self" gives us a more whole view of who we are becoming in the first place
until we no longer "see through a glass darkly"
...but see face-to-face ...in a clear bright mirror
by way of a series of many small deaths and resurrections
a full-spectrum dance of ascensions and descensions
a marriage of masculine and feminine forms of divine love
masculine = transcend/evolve
feminine = embrace/include
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Too Gray Now
This sub-topic discussion of teenage "old people" is right on, in my opinion.
Energetically speaking we need to be resolving energetic issues - energetically. But most people do not know how to do such in their lives. Therefore, most people do no such thing; generally people blame others for what moves in their OWN hearts. This is vey immature and irresponsible. Yet, we see it all around us. Road rage. Politics. Even people who stay ....ed a life time because of some offense (which is living in them). Without the guidance of the mature people in our lives, we simply ride the not-so-merry-go-round again and again.
The energy which pumps through one's body when we are teenagers is not to be enshrined. It was to be resolved - transformed if you prefer - - when and if we resolve it - it will not be abandoned. But it will morph into the next phase of development. The energy of a teen, properly matured and transformed – will blossom into the next phase and so on.
But it is in the aspect of the transformation phase where people seem to get lost... we wait for others to transform us because we do not know how to do it. We find others who want our energy – but can not help us. Still we recapitulate or re-visit those energies again and again. But when we do, we only find we are gaining more and more neurosis through this process and are resolving little or nothing.
Recapitulation is something we see in the development of stages of the embryo and has good scientific footing. It means: The principle that living organisms develop only from other living organisms and not from nonliving matter. I bring it up as a metaphor. We develop our next phase of energetic living from these living energies in us, now.
We (Western Man) may appear to be "stuck" in perpetual puberty thinking and feeling... but maybe we are merely recapitulating. :) If we would resolve instead of try and re-capture the youthful feelings we would no longer need to recapitulate that feeling state. We could move on.
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cman
Yeah, TGN, and I don't think it's a matter of loosing anything of the great things of youth or it's many virtues and living qualities. But capitalizing on them and being able to see another step with clearness and decisive progress into new things. Though not fully known but certainly seen and then experienced and living with more vision and perception.
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sirguessalot
yeah
a moment to light all the candles
a lifetime to open all the seals
some whole holy bandwidth
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Too Gray Now
Cman, Agreed. Not loosing one's youth - but having the energy of it "roll-over" and be part of the transformation to the next phase.
Let me talk to myself here - not directing this towards any poster or post in particular... Just a bunch of rhetorical questions.
In my metaphor of Recapitulation one could say it offers a basis for the book which started this thread: Ye Shall Be Holy.
Now I have not read the book. Just pointing at the phrase - the title. How is it that we become holy? Performance? Keeping of external behavior rules? Being infused with holy spirit? New Birth? (Of course, most of us on these boards spent years with a pre-packaged answer to that question of "how" - God makes you Holy - period.). Is it not possible for one to become holy by multiple means and processes? Must there be only one answer or component in this process?
A tragedy of Christianity, IMO is the notion that Jesus did it (does it) all -
When it comes to dealing with the energy which is in one's own heart - we have a very significant role to play. And the energy which is in us has a huge bearing upon our performance and our becoming.
Can one become or Shall Be Holy by some means which includes paying no attention to transforming what is within?
As SG said, a moment to light all the candles and a lifetime to open all the seals. Certainly, transforming what is within us is one of those life-time type of events... which can and does from time to time, happen in a moment.
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