My office is just up a little hill from the smaller commuter airport in Cleveland, where the Cleveland National Air Show is held every year. The Blue Angels (or the Thunderbirds, who perform at the show here every other year) practice starting on Wednesday or Thursday before the show, and they fly so low over our building it seems like you could reach up and touch them.
Watching these precision flying teams (as well as hearing and even feeling them) is one of my top 5 favorite things! Thanks for reminding me what we have to look forward to soon!
We got to go see the Blue Angels in Seattle over Elliott Bay. They had been practicing a couple of days, very low over Magnolia Hill and greatly annoyed some of the uppity housewives who live there. Yeah, right, honey, go grab your peace sign and parade in protest! If it weren't for men like these, you might be locked in your house or worse.
I love the maneuver where the one guy is flying along peacefully all by himself and then WHOOSH! comes a fellow from the opposite direction, fast as can be, missing him by inches. They do fly only a couple feet from each other, by the way. Also where the guy sort of dances across the sky, his nose up at a severe angle, close to stalling out.
I am not much of a Tom Cruise fan, but I loved "Top Gun" for the Navy flying scenes. If a Blue Angel offered to take me up for a spin, I'd go in a minute if it was my last act on earth!
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
Yes they are fun to watch. That said, (while putting on my flak jacket), I think there are some valid questions to be asked about this type of show. I think questions SHOULD be asked for that matter, and I do so, trying NOT to be antagonistic.
1- Is the entertainment value of them justifiable to the risks? (10% of the Angels pilots and squad leaders have been killed in shows or training accidents)
2- Is the financial cost (both taxpayer and non-profit sponsorship) justifiable?
3- Is the fuel expenditure worth it? ($1400 per jet, per show)-NOT including the cost during practice or getting to the show.- and I have no idea how old that figure is, although it is not current.
4- Recruitment is listed as one of the prime benefits of these shows, is there a better way?
should they not be as conscientious as the rest of us need to be about where they can conserve?
6- The Duluth show also has an army virtual combat simulation team at it (which seems to be the major focus of the demonstrators Dmiller mentions) Does this glorify attributes of our society which we want to glorify?
And that's just a bit much for Michelle Naar-Obed, a prominent and passionate Duluth peace activist.
She's particularly unhappy with the Army's combat simulator, the Virtual Army Experience. Participants can gun down virtual terrorists. Naar-Obed has been to Iraq five times to work with war victims, and she's trying to get sponsors to tone down the air show's military theme.
I imagine there are many more questions that could be asked. I hereby state that I do not claim to have definitive answers to them, as MY answers would vary by each question, and they would STILL be only MY answers from MY perspective. I'll post these questions for your considerations anyway.
Yeah, i've got mixed feelings - at best - about the whole exhibition.
I remember when I was a kid, at the opening festivities of the Seattle World's Fair in '62, that the Blue Angels did a show. One of the planes crashed, killing a retired couple who were sitting down for breakfast in their own home. Is the show worth putting the performers AND the general populace's safety at risk? I dunno...
And the larger question is about the militarism and all. When they have displays like this in Red Square we all sorta deride them dirty commies for such blatant saber rattling, don't we? But when WE do it, well, it's just good fun (?).
All that being said, when they're practicing over the Lake in Seattle, I STILL stop and watch them for awhile. It certainly IS an awesome display of frightful technology...
Yes they are fun to watch. That said, (while putting on my flak jacket), I think there are some valid questions to be asked about this type of show. I think questions SHOULD be asked for that matter, and I do so, trying NOT to be antagonistic.
1- Is the entertainment value of them justifiable to the risks? (10% of the Angels pilots and squad leaders have been killed in shows or training accidents)
2- Is the financial cost (both taxpayer and non-profit sponsorship) justifiable?
3- Is the fuel expenditure worth it? ($1400 per jet, per show)-NOT including the cost during practice or getting to the show.- and I have no idea how old that figure is, although it is not current.
4- Recruitment is listed as one of the prime benefits of these shows, is there a better way?
should they not be as conscientious as the rest of us need to be about where they can conserve?
6- The Duluth show also has an army virtual combat simulation team at it (which seems to be the major focus of the demonstrators Dmiller mentions) Does this glorify attributes of our society which we want to glorify?
And that's just a bit much for Michelle Naar-Obed, a prominent and passionate Duluth peace activist.
She's particularly unhappy with the Army's combat simulator, the Virtual Army Experience. Participants can gun down virtual terrorists. Naar-Obed has been to Iraq five times to work with war victims, and she's trying to get sponsors to tone down the air show's military theme.
I imagine there are many more questions that could be asked. I hereby state that I do not claim to have definitive answers to them, as MY answers would vary by each question, and they would STILL be only MY answers from MY perspective. I'll post these questions for your considerations anyway.
~HAP
I figured I might hear this from someone ---so I'll answer while (hopefully) NOT relegating this to the politics and tacs section. Hap -- I know you're NOT being confrontational, merely asking, surmising, etc.
With that being said ------- >>>>>
1.) Yes.
Not sure where your statistics came from, but according to you 90% of the air time is a success.
2.) Perhaps.
CIRRUS DESIGN, (local manufactuer of planes, and now jets) was the main sponsor. Not sure what their *take* in this was, nor am I aware of whatever negotiations went on finacially speaking, and what they may or may not have realized monetarily.
3.) Yes.
15 to 20,000 (or more) folks showed up to see the show (both paying) and non-paying customers.
There were at least 10,000 folks inside the gates, and (perhaps) twice as many lined up along the roadway outside the gates.
4.) Maybe, maybe not.
Seeing the Air Force in action (for those that have an inclination to fly), would be powerful indeed.
Many other branches of the Armed Forces were there as well, with booths set up for folks to visit.
They were talking, not flying.
5.) IMO --- not a valid objection. (see answer to #3)
Now --- the *tricky* one -------- >>>> Observation #6.
Yes -- It was indeed the *Virtual Army Experience* that Ms. Michelle Naar-Obed (member of the local Catholic *Loaves and Fishes* orginazation) objected to. She got prominent coverage in our local paper. Others here in the community chimed in voicing their opinions, saying something like *this* shouldn't be at a *family event*. Well, that's all fine and good --- EXCEPT there was (to the local newspaper's credit), ONE article describing that Virtual Army Experience.
The author of that LONE article told *the other side of the story*.
What Ms. Michelle Naar-Obed FAILED to mention was --- this VAE was for soldiers to RESCUE people.
Everyone that decides to do the VAE, has to sit through a session in order to understand who is a threat, and who is not. Nother words -- if yer a trigger happy guy, and just want to shoot folks, you're gonna flunk this thing ---- Yes -- you get graded on your *performance* when you leave the booth.
You are told IN DETAIL before you enter the booth who IS, and who IS NOT a *bad guy*. The objective is NOT to kill people, it's to rescue those who are being held against their will. Somehow --- the *peaceniks* missed that little tidbit of info, in their uncontrollable urge to protest any and all things that guarantee their freedom to spew such sh!! against those who provide that right to them.
So --- This is NOT a rebuttal. Merely telling you what things appear to be here in the *hood*.
But thank you for your observations/ questions. Made me think about why today was REALLY special!
As I said, I was posing some questions. thank you for your views, and I am glad you enjoyed the show with the guys.
bytheby, as to the statistic in #1- According to the BA website, there have been 232 pilots in their history and 32 commanders= 264. News reports say 26 fatal accidents have occured, hence the 10% (roughly) of their pilots have died in accidents during training or shows.
It is a given that answers to these questions will vary by each of us. I simply am not sure that in my view this expenditure for entertainment is warranted.
My only comment concerning #6 is that it is the Constitution that gives all of us the right to speak our views, not the US military. The military defends our shores, and in some cases, our interests abroad,from enemies, on orders from the President as I recall. I have no knowledge of the VAE booth other than what was Googled.
Oh -- and lest you get the wrong idea (and I don't think you did) ----- >>>>
I'm in favor of peace myself. Wouldn't wish a war or international conflict on anyone.
Don't remember where it is now --- but there's that verse about *war and rumor of war*.
Best be prepared, if it happens. Don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight eh?
The greatest military men I have known much prefer peace, including my father and my grandfather, both career Army officers. that was never an issue with me, david.
The question of the Angels and Thunderbird demonstrations is whether it is necessary to show that training to us and spend this money in this dangerous and expensive format. I in no way am objecting to the extraordinary training necessary to prepare the pilots for actual possible wartime maneuvers.
This expensive machinery is not wartime ready, even though they can be retrofitted and repainted to be ready. (as long as they have not crashed during the entertainment, or training for the entertainment.)
The question of the Angels and Thunderbird demonstrations is whether it is necessary to show that training to us and spend this money in this dangerous and expensive format. I in no way am objecting to the extraordinary training necessary to prepare the pilots for actual possible wartime maneuvers.
This expensive machinery is not wartime ready, even though they can be retrofitted and repainted to be ready. (as long as they have not crashed during the entertainment, or training for the entertainment.)
Thought I might add an update. Local news media said today (Sunday, July 20th),
those viewing the airshow was over 40,000 folks, and NO accidents.
and --- since when does a paint job make a jet ready for wartime maneuver's??? Eh?
Methinks it's the pilot and the equipment *available* that determines that.
WG, the comparison I was making was with what we do.
We seem to take a dim view of military exhibitions in Red Square. Film clips of these events are often coupled with dire warnings of how diligent we should be so as to not allow our evil enemies to overtake us and such.
I'm just wondering, what's the difference between the "evil" displays in Red Square, and OUR displays of military might?
Is it because we're "good" and everyboby else is "bad"?
Or maybe showing off one's military prowess is a perfectly healthy and patriotic endeavor? I dunno. Convince me.
As with Hap's points, I see a horrendous expenditure of fuel, manpower, and materials, AND an unacceptable risk - at the least to the pilots, if not the populace. 1 in 10 DIES? If those numbers are right, I'm stunned. That many "cream of the crop" pilots are lost so we can be entertained for a few minutes?
Honestly, I think the excercise is an anachronism that will slowly fade away, just from sheer logistical considerations, if nothing else...
HAP, I get what you're saying in my head, but my heart still loves the thrill it gets from watching anyone do anything that looks that diffucult so unbelievably well. I love the precision, and I reallllllly love the sound of the planes rushing so low overhead. It makes me feel like a kid at my first parade.
Geo, I hardly think that these two precision flying teams bring to mind "military might." To me they show what well-trained people can do with a lot of discipline and courage. I think of the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds more like the aerial version of one of the military bands. They're soooooooo good it makes me proud.
This may be totally illogical and 100% emotional, but that's how I feel.
Recently my office shook and rattled till I thought my windows were going to shatter! As I ran outside I found the streets were filled with men, women and children and they were all standing with their mouths open staring towards the western horizon. Then like a flash a single fighter jet appeared like magic and ripped past performing various tricks and aerial acrobats. Mind you this is in an area under the "bubble" of one of the most liberal concentrations in the USA, but everyone stood there and hooped and hollered with delight for the single airman practicing loudly to draw the crowds. THERE HE IS shouted the children as they pointed, he would appear, twist, flip, roll, climb and dive! This went on for over a good ½ an hour.
Following a few minutes of silence, out of the eastern horizon lumbered a great WWII bomber, props roaring and the noise vibrating the very ground where we stood; an awesome reminder of history and a silent crowd watched. My 60 year old carpenter that bears a striking resemblance to St. Nick himself broke the silence with "Damn what a great country" and the gathered crowd of men, women and children all applauded.
Silly Santa still thinks patriotism is an admirable quality…….
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Linda Z
Be still, my heart. Great video, DMiller!
My office is just up a little hill from the smaller commuter airport in Cleveland, where the Cleveland National Air Show is held every year. The Blue Angels (or the Thunderbirds, who perform at the show here every other year) practice starting on Wednesday or Thursday before the show, and they fly so low over our building it seems like you could reach up and touch them.
Watching these precision flying teams (as well as hearing and even feeling them) is one of my top 5 favorite things! Thanks for reminding me what we have to look forward to soon!
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Watered Garden
We got to go see the Blue Angels in Seattle over Elliott Bay. They had been practicing a couple of days, very low over Magnolia Hill and greatly annoyed some of the uppity housewives who live there. Yeah, right, honey, go grab your peace sign and parade in protest! If it weren't for men like these, you might be locked in your house or worse.
I love the maneuver where the one guy is flying along peacefully all by himself and then WHOOSH! comes a fellow from the opposite direction, fast as can be, missing him by inches. They do fly only a couple feet from each other, by the way. Also where the guy sort of dances across the sky, his nose up at a severe angle, close to stalling out.
I am not much of a Tom Cruise fan, but I loved "Top Gun" for the Navy flying scenes. If a Blue Angel offered to take me up for a spin, I'd go in a minute if it was my last act on earth!
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
Pilot Officer Gillespie Magee
No 412 squadron, RCAF
Killed 11 December 1941
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HAPe4me
oops
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HAPe4me
grrr what happened?
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HAPe4me
oh cmon! I did not click "post"
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HAPe4me
Ok, I will try this ONE more time.
Yes they are fun to watch. That said, (while putting on my flak jacket), I think there are some valid questions to be asked about this type of show. I think questions SHOULD be asked for that matter, and I do so, trying NOT to be antagonistic.
1- Is the entertainment value of them justifiable to the risks? (10% of the Angels pilots and squad leaders have been killed in shows or training accidents)
2- Is the financial cost (both taxpayer and non-profit sponsorship) justifiable?
3- Is the fuel expenditure worth it? ($1400 per jet, per show)-NOT including the cost during practice or getting to the show.- and I have no idea how old that figure is, although it is not current.
4- Recruitment is listed as one of the prime benefits of these shows, is there a better way?
5- The military is the largest consumer of fuel in our country according to http://sandersresearch.com/index.php?optio...&Itemid=103
should they not be as conscientious as the rest of us need to be about where they can conserve?
6- The Duluth show also has an army virtual combat simulation team at it (which seems to be the major focus of the demonstrators Dmiller mentions) Does this glorify attributes of our society which we want to glorify?
I imagine there are many more questions that could be asked. I hereby state that I do not claim to have definitive answers to them, as MY answers would vary by each question, and they would STILL be only MY answers from MY perspective. I'll post these questions for your considerations anyway.
~HAP
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George Aar
Yeah, i've got mixed feelings - at best - about the whole exhibition.
I remember when I was a kid, at the opening festivities of the Seattle World's Fair in '62, that the Blue Angels did a show. One of the planes crashed, killing a retired couple who were sitting down for breakfast in their own home. Is the show worth putting the performers AND the general populace's safety at risk? I dunno...
And the larger question is about the militarism and all. When they have displays like this in Red Square we all sorta deride them dirty commies for such blatant saber rattling, don't we? But when WE do it, well, it's just good fun (?).
All that being said, when they're practicing over the Lake in Seattle, I STILL stop and watch them for awhile. It certainly IS an awesome display of frightful technology...
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cheranne
Thanks for that video,I grew up on Air Force Bases often saw the Thunderbirds fly by my house
in San Antonio and went to EVERY airshow being my dad worked for Air Logistics C5's and Pentegon
and mom worked for Air Force One.
The sound of airplanes remind me of home and ..mmmmmmmmmmmm always LOVED a man in uniform!
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dmiller
I figured I might hear this from someone ---so I'll answer while (hopefully) NOT relegating this to the politics and tacs section. Hap -- I know you're NOT being confrontational, merely asking, surmising, etc.
With that being said ------- >>>>>
1.) Yes.
Not sure where your statistics came from, but according to you 90% of the air time is a success.
2.) Perhaps.
CIRRUS DESIGN, (local manufactuer of planes, and now jets) was the main sponsor. Not sure what their *take* in this was, nor am I aware of whatever negotiations went on finacially speaking, and what they may or may not have realized monetarily.
3.) Yes.
15 to 20,000 (or more) folks showed up to see the show (both paying) and non-paying customers.
There were at least 10,000 folks inside the gates, and (perhaps) twice as many lined up along the roadway outside the gates.
4.) Maybe, maybe not.
Seeing the Air Force in action (for those that have an inclination to fly), would be powerful indeed.
Many other branches of the Armed Forces were there as well, with booths set up for folks to visit.
They were talking, not flying.
5.) IMO --- not a valid objection. (see answer to #3)
Now --- the *tricky* one -------- >>>> Observation #6.
Yes -- It was indeed the *Virtual Army Experience* that Ms. Michelle Naar-Obed (member of the local Catholic *Loaves and Fishes* orginazation) objected to. She got prominent coverage in our local paper. Others here in the community chimed in voicing their opinions, saying something like *this* shouldn't be at a *family event*. Well, that's all fine and good --- EXCEPT there was (to the local newspaper's credit), ONE article describing that Virtual Army Experience.
The author of that LONE article told *the other side of the story*.
What Ms. Michelle Naar-Obed FAILED to mention was --- this VAE was for soldiers to RESCUE people.
Everyone that decides to do the VAE, has to sit through a session in order to understand who is a threat, and who is not. Nother words -- if yer a trigger happy guy, and just want to shoot folks, you're gonna flunk this thing ---- Yes -- you get graded on your *performance* when you leave the booth.
You are told IN DETAIL before you enter the booth who IS, and who IS NOT a *bad guy*. The objective is NOT to kill people, it's to rescue those who are being held against their will. Somehow --- the *peaceniks* missed that little tidbit of info, in their uncontrollable urge to protest any and all things that guarantee their freedom to spew such sh!! against those who provide that right to them.
So --- This is NOT a rebuttal. Merely telling you what things appear to be here in the *hood*.
But thank you for your observations/ questions. Made me think about why today was REALLY special!
(edited to highlight Cirrus Design).
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HAPe4me
As I said, I was posing some questions. thank you for your views, and I am glad you enjoyed the show with the guys.
bytheby, as to the statistic in #1- According to the BA website, there have been 232 pilots in their history and 32 commanders= 264. News reports say 26 fatal accidents have occured, hence the 10% (roughly) of their pilots have died in accidents during training or shows.
It is a given that answers to these questions will vary by each of us. I simply am not sure that in my view this expenditure for entertainment is warranted.
My only comment concerning #6 is that it is the Constitution that gives all of us the right to speak our views, not the US military. The military defends our shores, and in some cases, our interests abroad,from enemies, on orders from the President as I recall. I have no knowledge of the VAE booth other than what was Googled.
~HAP
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dmiller
Oh -- and lest you get the wrong idea (and I don't think you did) ----- >>>>
I'm in favor of peace myself. Wouldn't wish a war or international conflict on anyone.
Don't remember where it is now --- but there's that verse about *war and rumor of war*.
Best be prepared, if it happens. Don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight eh?
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HAPe4me
The greatest military men I have known much prefer peace, including my father and my grandfather, both career Army officers. that was never an issue with me, david.
The question of the Angels and Thunderbird demonstrations is whether it is necessary to show that training to us and spend this money in this dangerous and expensive format. I in no way am objecting to the extraordinary training necessary to prepare the pilots for actual possible wartime maneuvers.
This expensive machinery is not wartime ready, even though they can be retrofitted and repainted to be ready. (as long as they have not crashed during the entertainment, or training for the entertainment.)
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dmiller
Thought I might add an update. Local news media said today (Sunday, July 20th),
those viewing the airshow was over 40,000 folks, and NO accidents.
and --- since when does a paint job make a jet ready for wartime maneuver's??? Eh?
Methinks it's the pilot and the equipment *available* that determines that.
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Watered Garden
Personally, when I look at the Blue Angels, I just thank God for men like these, and for technology and weapons like these to defend my freedom.
I don't appreciate being compared to a dirty Commie. I don't appreciate the men and women of the United States military being derided, either.
Those jets don't carry armaments. They don't carry so much as a BB gun; it would be too much extra weight.
Lighten up; will ya?
WG
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cheranne
yes ,there have been accidents and thats the risk,life is FULL of risks,a bee sting can kill some
people.
My husband was in 82nd Airborne Skydived for 20 yrs,had 1 bad accident,and their are a whole lot
of soldiers with broken legs from landing wrong or in trees,One Golden Knight lost "both legs" in a
collision with another skydiver,he now still jumps with prostatic limbs.
There are always risks, gotta live.
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George Aar
WG, the comparison I was making was with what we do.
We seem to take a dim view of military exhibitions in Red Square. Film clips of these events are often coupled with dire warnings of how diligent we should be so as to not allow our evil enemies to overtake us and such.
I'm just wondering, what's the difference between the "evil" displays in Red Square, and OUR displays of military might?
Is it because we're "good" and everyboby else is "bad"?
Or maybe showing off one's military prowess is a perfectly healthy and patriotic endeavor? I dunno. Convince me.
As with Hap's points, I see a horrendous expenditure of fuel, manpower, and materials, AND an unacceptable risk - at the least to the pilots, if not the populace. 1 in 10 DIES? If those numbers are right, I'm stunned. That many "cream of the crop" pilots are lost so we can be entertained for a few minutes?
Honestly, I think the excercise is an anachronism that will slowly fade away, just from sheer logistical considerations, if nothing else...
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Watered Garden
deleted by WG who is just not very nice right now.
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Linda Z
HAP, I get what you're saying in my head, but my heart still loves the thrill it gets from watching anyone do anything that looks that diffucult so unbelievably well. I love the precision, and I reallllllly love the sound of the planes rushing so low overhead. It makes me feel like a kid at my first parade.
Geo, I hardly think that these two precision flying teams bring to mind "military might." To me they show what well-trained people can do with a lot of discipline and courage. I think of the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds more like the aerial version of one of the military bands. They're soooooooo good it makes me proud.
This may be totally illogical and 100% emotional, but that's how I feel.
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HAPe4me
You are allowed to be totally illogical and 100% emotional! <_<
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Linda Z
Sure I am, cuz who's gonna stop me???
Thanks, HAP.
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Ductape
Recently my office shook and rattled till I thought my windows were going to shatter! As I ran outside I found the streets were filled with men, women and children and they were all standing with their mouths open staring towards the western horizon. Then like a flash a single fighter jet appeared like magic and ripped past performing various tricks and aerial acrobats. Mind you this is in an area under the "bubble" of one of the most liberal concentrations in the USA, but everyone stood there and hooped and hollered with delight for the single airman practicing loudly to draw the crowds. THERE HE IS shouted the children as they pointed, he would appear, twist, flip, roll, climb and dive! This went on for over a good ½ an hour.
Following a few minutes of silence, out of the eastern horizon lumbered a great WWII bomber, props roaring and the noise vibrating the very ground where we stood; an awesome reminder of history and a silent crowd watched. My 60 year old carpenter that bears a striking resemblance to St. Nick himself broke the silence with "Damn what a great country" and the gathered crowd of men, women and children all applauded.
Silly Santa still thinks patriotism is an admirable quality…….
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HAPe4me
Linda- somehow I knew YOU would take my comment in the vein in which it was given, totally in jest. thanks for being you!
~HAP
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