The ghouls and goblins may be hiding in your bible.
I am not in favor of blaming anyone - especially Adam and Eve - for the situations that a person can find herself/himself in today. The idea that women and men act a certain way today is because Eve and Adam did something way back right after gawd made dirt, just smacks of blame shifting. (Not to mention that I"m finding the whole Adam, Eve, and serpent scenario a bit far fetched anyway.)
This just leads to a victim mentality that does more harm than good. I would rather see personal accountability and honesty in marriage, parenting, and life in general. Then you won't have any one sided affairs.
I'm all for personal accountability when it comes to relationships. It has been too far left undone, to just state that submission is only for the wife, when all along it has been the responsibility of both parties to make the marriage work. Sad, but true, unbelievers sometimes are wiser than Christians when it comes to wisdom....would be different if they asked God and not their church leaders. Especially, when the leaders only want to parrot what they have learned and not what they have personally discovered.
I think that I've come to be much more comfortable around people who know how to choose for themselves when to submit for "everyone's own good" as "everyone's own good" applies in any given situation.
But I am very uncomfortable with folks who just assume others should submit to them. And when it becomes bullying instead of strictly a practical situational concern I...just...may...figure...out...how...to...object...to that state of affairs.
And when it is more of a doctrinal issue as it is in TWI instead of being based on entirely practical concerns it seems that the door is wiiiiide open for it to become abusive.
This is relatively short but let me explain where it comes from.
Yale University press has published a modern spelling edition of the 1534 Tyndale new testament. And this is the paragraph that serves as William Tyndale's prologue to the book of Philemon...
"In this epistle St. Paul showeth a godly example of Christian love. Herein we see how Paul taketh poor Onesimus unto him and maketh intercession for him unto his master and helpeth him with all that he may, and behaveth himself none otherwise as though he himself were the said Onesimus. Which thing thing he doth not with power and authority, as he might well have done: but putteth off all authority and whatsoever he might of right do, that Philemon might do likewise to Onesimus, and with great meekness and wisdom teacheth Philemon to see his duty in Christ Jesus."
____________________________
When I compare this manner to kindly appearing but privately viscous Wierwille, or the thuggish and creepy Martindale, or my sociopathic former splinter group leader they all seem to fall far, far short of Paul's example.
My former splinter group leader once spit on a man who fell asleep during one of his sharings. And even though I did not witness this event my twig leader reported the event as if it were a good thing during fellowship. I'm certain that both these thugs enjoy seeing people squirm but probably would never publicly admit it.
And it never seems like I can think about Paul's example in Philemon enough to claim that I've made Paul's manner my own. But I do gladly consider it an unchanging example which to aspire to.
And I really, really feel for those who have been so beat up by TWI thuggery that that is all they tend to see, even in the bible.
Rascal I'll answer the above snippet in a minute. First, I have to say that this is a pretty funny thread. It reminds me of the 1960's when women stood up and militantly burned their bras and said to men, "up yours muthaphuka." Granted it was a worthy effort at the time BUT this is the USA and it is 2009 AD (Christian calendar). Times have changed and your (as in women's) lifestyles are under YOUR control as they SHOULD be like never before. If you wish to refute this I have a few countries I've visited that I'd like to recommend to you just for your observation of how cruel women are actually treated in other places. I BY NO MEANS think things are perfect in the US, however. by comparison - enjoy your margarita tonight.
Now to your quote above. Limiting this to some judean biblical cultural event is incredibly myopic and smacks of the Christian martyr syndrome. ALL RELIGIONS - ON EVERY CONTINENT I HAVE BEEN ON (six out of seven to be precise) keep women down and I mean down HARD through the use of religion - crushingly hard - slavery hard - where they are routinely mutilated physically for the slightest disobedience often resulting in permanent disfigurement - nothing like the milky pseudo-suppression of TWITS by force of words and a brainwashed belief system - nothing like the phenomenal advances made in Europe and the USA/Canada groups. It is NOT limited to, NOR did it originate in, judeo-christian culture and practice - it is also in Hindu, Buddhism, Shintoism, most African religions and others. In fact in some religions women are not allowed to even practice - religion (god) is between their man and the priest. The one exception I can think of is pure Taoism - and even that has some variants on the original themes.
Anyway - y'all have fun with this thread - I just had to expand this crushing of women to something more global and FAR more viscious than the goofball religious kooks from so called seat of man in the middle east - and the myopic incredibly self-centered view of judeo-christianity as somehow some special place for god - helluva a loser THAT god is if he couldn't figure out how to codify the absolute value of women.
Women have equal value to men - if you have a doctrine that suggests otherwise then I suggest you toss the entire thing out the window - if you trash or crush 52% of your population you probably got a boatload of other STUPID doctrinal IDIOCIES that need to be DUMPED (along with that IDIOT god of yours) unceremoniously into an already used but not yet flushed toilet.
That being said - all of you women on here send me your money and I will save you from eternal damnation and everlasting fires of hell - just repeat after me........... <=== please note humor - well heck y'all can just send me your money anyway - I'll send ya a personalized pink card or something
i looked to see if a man or a woman wrote this and was surprised to see that a 52 year old man wrote it. is this a california man's way of thinking or something? and how did you learn to think like this? it took me years and years to get all that bs out of my brain and i'm alot younger than you, so how'd you do it?
i looked to see if a man or a woman wrote this and was surprised to see that a 52 year old man wrote it. is this a california man's way of thinking or something? and how did you learn to think like this? it took me years and years to get all that bs out of my brain and i'm alot younger than you, so how'd you do it?
Welcome to the GSC brainfixed. My thinking has little or nothing to do with California. Hmmm how did I learn to think like this? I am a cynic...about almost everything. Simple eh? As for the TWI bs I guess I am one of the fortunate ones. I guess I never bought much of it at all. (Ask GrouchoMarxJr about the smoking story.) When I walked out in 86 (or perhaps 87) I never looked back. It wasn't until two or three years ago an old friend told me about this place so I occasionally show up and endeavor to cause hate and discontent amongst the masses.
I was thinking about submission to leadership, the church's submission to Christ, and I think that those particular passages should set an EXTREMELY high standard for leadership. If I'm supposed to submit myself to my home group leader, pastor, etc., HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT! And he better be able to show me book chapter and verse if it's Biblical, and a whole lot of documentation for everything else.
One of the most horrible things that I was ever taught regarding the above was during WOW training (1973) when I was taught to obey leadership and even if they were wrong, I would be blessed by God for my submission.
Since when does God bless the submissionee, if you will, for being stupid enough to submit to a self-centered, egotistical user, male or female, if that individual is just trying to play me like a violin? If my WOW leader had told me to go jump off a bridge and I jumped, would there be extra rewards in heaven? I think not.
Submission to leadership was used to control and abuse in my experience.
One of the most horrible things that I was ever taught regarding the above was during WOW training (1973) when I was taught to obey leadership and even if they were wrong, I would be blessed by God for my submission.
. . .
Isn't that the same standard for children and parents?
I was thinking about submission to leadership, the church's submission to Christ, and I think that those particular passages should set an EXTREMELY high standard for leadership. If I'm supposed to submit myself to my home group leader, pastor, etc., HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT! And he better be able to show me book chapter and verse if it's Biblical, and a whole lot of documentation for everything else.
One of the most horrible things that I was ever taught regarding the above was during WOW training (1973) when I was taught to obey leadership and even if they were wrong, I would be blessed by God for my submission.
Since when does God bless the submissionee, if you will, for being stupid enough to submit to a self-centered, egotistical user, male or female, if that individual is just trying to play me like a violin? If my WOW leader had told me to go jump off a bridge and I jumped, would there be extra rewards in heaven? I think not.
Submission to leadership was used to control and abuse in my experience.
WG
IMNSO the element to 'submission' that is sorely lacking is the love, respect, caring and intense concern on the person that is supposedly 'the leader' towards the 'follower.'
Take the parent/child relationship, for example. I give my kids advice, directives and even ultimatives NOT because I need the jolt of being in charge, but because I FREAKIN' LOVE THEM! I want them to be successful FOR THEM - and NOT as a reflection of my ego. I want to keep them alive and healthy and successful.
The power struggle over getting 'obeyed' is all out of whack. There needs to be a lot of balance and earned respect. I may not always be right - but I strive to be right when I tell my kids what to do - BECAUSE I expect them to listen and follow my directions. There's a real difference between flinging orders about because it makes one feel powerful and carefully considering how to best help someone. Sometimes the best thing to do is to let a person figure it out on their own.
During WOW training I was sitting eating lunch at a picnic table outside with a whole bunch of people and VPW came and sat with us. We had little Jello cups and the girl next to me said she wished she had another. VPW stated a minute or two later he didn't want his and offered to give it away. I nudged the girl next to me who was shy, and was afraid to speak up. So, unwittingly and probably really out of turn but without a thought, I said she would take it. VP handed it to me and said, "Here, you opened your mouth! YOU eat it!"
I freakin' hate Jello. But someone else at the table gave me a stern look and said "DO WHAT THE MAN OF GOD SAYS!" Of course VP loved that, and I almost threw up the Jello after I submissively ate the damn slimy stuff.
That was a huge lesson that year. Submission to leadership, no matter what.
I admit, I was a stupid kid at that point and should have kept my mouth shut. But it certainly was a great spiritual lesson learned. If the Man of God says to eat ...., you eat it. Period.
I am s-o-o-o tempted to come up with a scathing zinger to that kind of mindless prattle, .... but Paw would ban me for good!
Come on!!! post it...we already know what the malignant one (VPW) meant when he said "you eat it." I just want to see your sense of humor get one more twist around the loony pole.
First of all I was referring originally to the dang Jello. I certainly don't agree with that particular doctrine any more than I enjoyed the lemon and lime Jello I ate the day before my colonoscopy, which was in total strikingly similar to my WOW year, come to think of it.
But that is the kind of organic fertilizer we were taught about submission. That was the point.
I really didn't intend anything remotely resembling a Freudian slip and now I feel bad.
Not to sweat. I wasn't aiming anything at you, and I know _you_ were referring to Jell-O. My retort was something that I wish was said in VPW's direction, accompanied with the obligatory one-finger salute (and I ain't talking about the pinky either.)
RR,
Nahhh! As tempting as it really is, ... I like my account here.
Plus I imagine that Paw wants to keep his blood pressure down for health reasons. :P
During WOW training I was sitting eating lunch at a picnic table outside with a whole bunch of people and VPW came and sat with us. We had little Jello cups and the girl next to me said she wished she had another. VPW stated a minute or two later he didn't want his and offered to give it away. I nudged the girl next to me who was shy, and was afraid to speak up. So, unwittingly and probably really out of turn but without a thought, I said she would take it. VP handed it to me and said, "Here, you opened your mouth! YOU eat it!"
I freakin' hate Jello. But someone else at the table gave me a stern look and said "DO WHAT THE MAN OF GOD SAYS!" Of course VP loved that, and I almost threw up the Jello after I submissively ate the damn slimy stuff.
That was a huge lesson that year. Submission to leadership, no matter what.
I admit, I was a stupid kid at that point and should have kept my mouth shut. But it certainly was a great spiritual lesson learned. If the Man of God says to eat ...., you eat it. Period.
WG
That's what's wrong when submission is done without the full knowledge of the Scriptures. Like you said....submission....or else. I know back then we would have been totally undone to be banned from our euphoric source....but I wished when I quit the first time, I wouldn't have been sucked back in the for the second. At least I didn't go down for the third time....I might never have come up!
I was listening to a teaching on marriage and wives today and the guy was pretty accurate - and said that wives do not always have to agree with their husbands - which shocked me. I was taught that I was to line up my thinking with that of my husband so that I was always without exception, completely likeminded with him. I was told that was the reason our son didn't always obey; he saw me not being sufficiently likeminded with my spouse and consequently thought being rebellious and defiant was okay.
I was never rebellious and defiant, nor did we have any discussions or disagreements within his earshot.
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Bolshevik
You mean something like they never existed?
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brideofjc
I'm all for personal accountability when it comes to relationships. It has been too far left undone, to just state that submission is only for the wife, when all along it has been the responsibility of both parties to make the marriage work. Sad, but true, unbelievers sometimes are wiser than Christians when it comes to wisdom....would be different if they asked God and not their church leaders. Especially, when the leaders only want to parrot what they have learned and not what they have personally discovered.
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Watered Garden
As I said before, I think Mr. Garden and I do better without Bible classes, religious helpers, or anyone else trying to tell us what to do.
And there are two areas of my life that are by invitation only - my checkbook and my bedroom!
WG
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JeffSjo
I think that I've come to be much more comfortable around people who know how to choose for themselves when to submit for "everyone's own good" as "everyone's own good" applies in any given situation.
But I am very uncomfortable with folks who just assume others should submit to them. And when it becomes bullying instead of strictly a practical situational concern I...just...may...figure...out...how...to...object...to that state of affairs.
And when it is more of a doctrinal issue as it is in TWI instead of being based on entirely practical concerns it seems that the door is wiiiiide open for it to become abusive.
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JeffSjo
This is relatively short but let me explain where it comes from.
Yale University press has published a modern spelling edition of the 1534 Tyndale new testament. And this is the paragraph that serves as William Tyndale's prologue to the book of Philemon...
"In this epistle St. Paul showeth a godly example of Christian love. Herein we see how Paul taketh poor Onesimus unto him and maketh intercession for him unto his master and helpeth him with all that he may, and behaveth himself none otherwise as though he himself were the said Onesimus. Which thing thing he doth not with power and authority, as he might well have done: but putteth off all authority and whatsoever he might of right do, that Philemon might do likewise to Onesimus, and with great meekness and wisdom teacheth Philemon to see his duty in Christ Jesus."
____________________________
When I compare this manner to kindly appearing but privately viscous Wierwille, or the thuggish and creepy Martindale, or my sociopathic former splinter group leader they all seem to fall far, far short of Paul's example.
My former splinter group leader once spit on a man who fell asleep during one of his sharings. And even though I did not witness this event my twig leader reported the event as if it were a good thing during fellowship. I'm certain that both these thugs enjoy seeing people squirm but probably would never publicly admit it.
And it never seems like I can think about Paul's example in Philemon enough to claim that I've made Paul's manner my own. But I do gladly consider it an unchanging example which to aspire to.
And I really, really feel for those who have been so beat up by TWI thuggery that that is all they tend to see, even in the bible.
gentle, gentle.....
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Watered Garden
And it's not limited to the thugs we know; I fear the thugs we don't know.
"The devil can quote Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness is like a goodly apple rotten at the core."
William Shakespeare, "The Merchant of Venice"
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Shellon
HA! WG, perfect!
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brainfixed
i looked to see if a man or a woman wrote this and was surprised to see that a 52 year old man wrote it. is this a california man's way of thinking or something? and how did you learn to think like this? it took me years and years to get all that bs out of my brain and i'm alot younger than you, so how'd you do it?
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RumRunner
Welcome to the GSC brainfixed. My thinking has little or nothing to do with California. Hmmm how did I learn to think like this? I am a cynic...about almost everything. Simple eh? As for the TWI bs I guess I am one of the fortunate ones. I guess I never bought much of it at all. (Ask GrouchoMarxJr about the smoking story.) When I walked out in 86 (or perhaps 87) I never looked back. It wasn't until two or three years ago an old friend told me about this place so I occasionally show up and endeavor to cause hate and discontent amongst the masses.
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Bolshevik
so you guys think they should outlaw marriage someday?
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brideofjc
No, but outlaw chauvanistic and minimalistic doctrines that affect either gender, ....humbly....IMO.
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Bolshevik
so does this stuff you mention not happen in gay marriages?
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brideofjc
How would I know???
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Watered Garden
I was thinking about submission to leadership, the church's submission to Christ, and I think that those particular passages should set an EXTREMELY high standard for leadership. If I'm supposed to submit myself to my home group leader, pastor, etc., HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT! And he better be able to show me book chapter and verse if it's Biblical, and a whole lot of documentation for everything else.
One of the most horrible things that I was ever taught regarding the above was during WOW training (1973) when I was taught to obey leadership and even if they were wrong, I would be blessed by God for my submission.
Since when does God bless the submissionee, if you will, for being stupid enough to submit to a self-centered, egotistical user, male or female, if that individual is just trying to play me like a violin? If my WOW leader had told me to go jump off a bridge and I jumped, would there be extra rewards in heaven? I think not.
Submission to leadership was used to control and abuse in my experience.
WG
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Bolshevik
Isn't that the same standard for children and parents?
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doojable
IMNSO the element to 'submission' that is sorely lacking is the love, respect, caring and intense concern on the person that is supposedly 'the leader' towards the 'follower.'
Take the parent/child relationship, for example. I give my kids advice, directives and even ultimatives NOT because I need the jolt of being in charge, but because I FREAKIN' LOVE THEM! I want them to be successful FOR THEM - and NOT as a reflection of my ego. I want to keep them alive and healthy and successful.
The power struggle over getting 'obeyed' is all out of whack. There needs to be a lot of balance and earned respect. I may not always be right - but I strive to be right when I tell my kids what to do - BECAUSE I expect them to listen and follow my directions. There's a real difference between flinging orders about because it makes one feel powerful and carefully considering how to best help someone. Sometimes the best thing to do is to let a person figure it out on their own.
Respect is a two-way relationship.
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Bolshevik
I don't know. Maybe someone else does.
Just wondering how married gays/lesbians could follow these "male-favored doctrines". They could never pull the gender card.
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Watered Garden
During WOW training I was sitting eating lunch at a picnic table outside with a whole bunch of people and VPW came and sat with us. We had little Jello cups and the girl next to me said she wished she had another. VPW stated a minute or two later he didn't want his and offered to give it away. I nudged the girl next to me who was shy, and was afraid to speak up. So, unwittingly and probably really out of turn but without a thought, I said she would take it. VP handed it to me and said, "Here, you opened your mouth! YOU eat it!"
I freakin' hate Jello. But someone else at the table gave me a stern look and said "DO WHAT THE MAN OF GOD SAYS!" Of course VP loved that, and I almost threw up the Jello after I submissively ate the damn slimy stuff.
That was a huge lesson that year. Submission to leadership, no matter what.
I admit, I was a stupid kid at that point and should have kept my mouth shut. But it certainly was a great spiritual lesson learned. If the Man of God says to eat ...., you eat it. Period.
WG
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GarthP2000
I am s-o-o-o tempted to come up with a scathing zinger to that kind of mindless prattle, .... but Paw would ban me for good!
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RumRunner
Come on!!! post it...we already know what the malignant one (VPW) meant when he said "you eat it." I just want to see your sense of humor get one more twist around the loony pole.
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Watered Garden
Garth, honey,
First of all I was referring originally to the dang Jello. I certainly don't agree with that particular doctrine any more than I enjoyed the lemon and lime Jello I ate the day before my colonoscopy, which was in total strikingly similar to my WOW year, come to think of it.
But that is the kind of organic fertilizer we were taught about submission. That was the point.
I really didn't intend anything remotely resembling a Freudian slip and now I feel bad.
WG
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GarthP2000
WG,
Not to sweat. I wasn't aiming anything at you, and I know _you_ were referring to Jell-O. My retort was something that I wish was said in VPW's direction, accompanied with the obligatory one-finger salute (and I ain't talking about the pinky either.)
RR,
Nahhh! As tempting as it really is, ... I like my account here.
Plus I imagine that Paw wants to keep his blood pressure down for health reasons. :P
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brideofjc
That's what's wrong when submission is done without the full knowledge of the Scriptures. Like you said....submission....or else. I know back then we would have been totally undone to be banned from our euphoric source....but I wished when I quit the first time, I wouldn't have been sucked back in the for the second. At least I didn't go down for the third time....I might never have come up!
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Watered Garden
I was listening to a teaching on marriage and wives today and the guy was pretty accurate - and said that wives do not always have to agree with their husbands - which shocked me. I was taught that I was to line up my thinking with that of my husband so that I was always without exception, completely likeminded with him. I was told that was the reason our son didn't always obey; he saw me not being sufficiently likeminded with my spouse and consequently thought being rebellious and defiant was okay.
I was never rebellious and defiant, nor did we have any discussions or disagreements within his earshot.
What BS.
WG
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