faith and the word of god

[brainfixed]

this is a discussion stemming from the gift ministries discussion that i started to get off topic so i'm starting a new discussion here. this was my last post from that discussion:

i have learned to look at things from the perspective of "every day life" to help me keep my wits about me and not be carried away by wanting things so much that i don't see the reality of things but only see what i want to see in things so i apply that alot to alot of subjects and religion is one of those subjects. it was brought up about osama and that's a good example because it's a "today" thing and it's easily understood in "today's" world. in that perspective i bring up the elvis sightings. how many people have seen the "risen" elvis who also saw the living elvis? how many people believe that elvis has risen because of the testimony of those many that have seen the "risen" elvis? and what court of law would accept anybody's "testimony" that the "risen" elvis left "instructions" and his lyrics to the "authority" to someone that had hated elvis, killed elvis fans and stood and held the clothes of a famous fan while that fan was beaten to death but one day on the way to killng more fans the "risen" elvis "visited" him and he "changed" dramatically? it makes no sense and nobody here would buy it for a second.

[brainfixed]

i hope nobody thinks i'm out just to pick a fight or something because what i'm out to do is to really question what is faith and what makes something "the word of god" over something else and why people believe something is "holy" over something else. i honestly don't get it and i don't know if i want to get it or not but it's something i've wanted to talk about for a long time but most religious people can't tolerate deep questioning of their beliefs.

[TrustAndObey]

i hope nobody thinks i'm out just to pick a fight or something because what i'm out to do is to really question what is faith and what makes something "the word of god" over something else and why people believe something is "holy" over something else. i honestly don't get it and i don't know if i want to get it or not but it's something i've wanted to talk about for a long time but most religious people can't tolerate deep questioning of their beliefs.

What is faith?? I'm almost persuaded that is a pretty huge discussion in itself that we all have our own idea of.. If we are talking about "faith" or otherwise "pistis" in the Christian scriptures, it's entirely different than the "faith" or "believing" many associate faith with today.. The faith or "pistis" of the Christian scriptures is typically used for trusting in someone or something. Whereas today faith is more head/heart belief of a doctrine/precept rather than trust. At least, that's my take on it.

What makes something "The Word of God"?! I actually despise those words these days.. So old fashioned English at the least, or more so informal.. It's like someone saying they read the words of brainfixed today while reading the forums.. Instead of just spitting it out in normal American english.. God said something.. People record what they believe "God" tells them.. What's to understand? Either this "God" said it, or He didn't.. I would take what anyone says with a grain of salt.

The word "God" originally meant someone/something with "perceived" strength, power, and authority over them, be it a man, deity, alien, or statue. So speaking of any particular "God"'s words, and considering them as coming from a "God", really doesn't justify any intense awe and wonder unless you perceive this same same someone/something to have strength, power, and authority over you!

So what again are we discussing?

[waysider]

Before I "got in the word" in 1972, I considered myself a spiritual person. When I contemplated the amazing complexity of something so "seemingly" basic as the life cycle of a tree frog or the immense power in a lightning strike, I saw something profound yet indefinable. Call it God, if you choose, or call it a supreme force or being. All I know is that there seemed to be some sort of message being directed to me that transcended the boundaries of language. Then, along came TWI. "Oh, No!, you can't allow yourself to think like that! Those thoughts are the adversary trying to divert you from the greatness of "The Written Word". Yes, friends, if God needs or wants to talk to you, he'll simply have to do so by virtue of "word studies" and "literals according to usage".

And so, the lesson I learned in The Way is that the only proper way to really understand God is to put Him in a tiny little box where you can examine Him whenever you wish with a high powered microscope that can split infinitives and diagram sentences until God is left standing in the shadows shouting,"Hey! I'm not in your stupid, little, box. I'm out here in the roaring thunder and babbling of a brook."

[sirguessalot]

i dunno

overall...scripturally and otherwise

i find that one's "faith" is the nature and/or form of whatever interior container we use

to somehow hold the ideas for what we simply cannot bring our selves to deny

or...what we have found our selves to come to trust

or..our inner picturebook on that which we have come to rely on thus far in life

for example...

if we wishes for some thing and get it

we may gain some "faith in the power of wishing for things"

and if and when we notice that the wishing does not always work

our conscience pressures us to question the validity of what was once trusted to be our most reliable worldview

when we find that our faith lacks integrity...or "wholeness"

which is like saying that it "no longer covers everything like we once thought"

then the container has some sort of leak or a crack

our boat is taking on water

and we need a new vessel

and so begins a lifelong journey of leaping from faith to faith

rethrowing the clay

when life calls for it

is a skill that pays off

in the longest run

because its not that we start by controlling

or otherwise choosing our faith

or "getting" faith

but that whatever faith we do have

it is something we initially find

...perhaps even something hidden from us

in the unlit corners of our very self

faith is a most direct reflection of our experiences

the deepest part of our faith

is more like a background noise of convictions that move us along

and only once we find out the nature of our faith

can we begin to examine and test the integrity

like cultivating and weeding

our gardens of assumptions

[year2027]

God first

Faith

07-16-2009

As I think faith I am speech less yes I can tell what bible says and 100’s of other books say about faith but in my words talk about it. Does brainfixed know what he asking me to write about does he know my mind is only so big my friend a board I visit?

Ok I will pray about it and we see if the spirit gives something new or the same old things I knew before that my friend knew too. I know I have this faith but in the world do I make it real in my life and others.

So about now you know the box I got myself in but I must get out of this box so I can be heard. I hear the voice Jesus Christ and God himself talking at me the glories words of truth that can be said in my words.

Faith is something that you dream about but you could not focus on the picture right because your faith is only so big. Faith is something you hope for but things do not come because it not the right time.

Faith is something that real to you but you can put your hands on it yet but your still trying because one day you will. Faith is all of these things and more it is all things through the bible as believing, which builds faith you read the truth and now you believe it.

That believing is faith past tensed like the hope you are believing in or the dream you tried to focus in or the real thing that you have in part but the whole still coming. This faith is what keeps you going when it all seems dark and light is doom you find hope.

So my friend I hope I answer some your questions while Christ and God has more to share on these and many things my mind can only take so must in. Thank you for giving the room to share what little I know with loves Roy.

[year2027]

God first

Faith of the Atheist person!

07-16-2009

Yes I talk to Atheist people they may not have believe in God but how does that matter to the ball of things. Can the Atheist person have faith I say yes but there is that there no God at all just like I can prove there this God they cannot prove isn’t?

They believe God is not real making they’re believed past tense faith that there is no God but can this really be yes it can. Both sides do not know enough of even the human body to say God did not or God did.

There not enough know about why we have DNA because one can label a small amount of it now maybe one day but it not today. So yes the Atheist can have faith but while the believers faith gives him hope the Atheist faith does not.

Atheist is only the other side of the coin so an Atheism person has faith that their, no god. Thank you for letting me talked love Roy.

[kimberly]

Deep questioning.....waiting... (the Final Jeopardy tune is playing). Ain't been asked one yet. Deep question, that is. Lovies.

[George Aar]

I think it's only deep if we want it to be. For those of us with a more skeptical bent, there's just not much mystery or intrigue.

When viewed from a dispassionate, unconnected place, The Bible is really a pretty unremarkable book. And hardly unique in the claims made for it. I think probably every culture that ever existed had some sort of holy writ to laud for it's wisdom and guidance. Isn't the more likely scenario that religions are just something that people do?

People need something to soften the harsh reality of existence. Who really wants to grow old and die? Or - worse yet - watch all your loved ones do it. So we invent something to take the rough edges off of our lot. And once we get comfortable with that something, woe unto anyone who dares question it.

But still, getting comfortable with it doesn't make dogma anymore credible. And real, unbiased investigation of beliefs is never really welcomed. You just have to believe it 'cause you want to. The intellect is best bypassed in the pursuit of spiritual nirvana...

[sirguessalot]

another interpretation of tongues of angels...a range of possibilities

...a simple poetic game of how the logos of "the Word of God" seems to change from "faith" to "faith"...whether in a religious context or not

1) faith in some degree of subjectivity above all..."the word of God" is in supernatural forces...particularly those that "my me" finds most beautiful and miraculous...those that "are good to me." Forces that are "bad to me" are not to be trusted. "Its all about me." Interior individual view.

2) a reaction to the failure of subjectivity above all...as early as 3 or so:

...faith in some degree of inter-subjectivity above all..."the word of God" is in supernatural myths...where a culture shares their trust in a particular story of a supernatural universe. "We rely on this story" (as it is understand) above all to tell us what to trust. Members only. Group interior view.

3) a reaction to the failure of inter-subjectivity above all...as early as 7 or so:

...faith is some degree of objectivity above all..."the word of God" is in true reality...we only trust what can be proven to all people...what can be measured...what can be demonstrated...what can be explained...what can be controlled....what can be reduced. Proven experts only. Individual exterior view.

4) a reaction to the failure of objectivity above all...as early as 12 or so:

...faith in some degree of interobjectivity above all..."the word of God" is in truths and realities...where truths are found in contexts within contexts within contexts...trusting complex interdisciplinary comparisons and wider systems above all. Everyone is allowed to add. Group exterior view.

5) a reaction to the failure of inter-objectivity above all...as early as 18 or so:

...faith in some degree of aperspectivity above all..."the word of God" is in all perspectives...where all perspectives are parts of a whole...each are valid and support each other...and each has its own path of development to a "fullest." Not only can human conflict can be understood, but one's own innate perspectives and unconscious programs and habits.

6) a reaction to the failure of apersectivity above all...as early as 25 or so:

...faith in some degree of non-perspectivity above all..."the word of God" is concealed in shadow...whenever all previous perspectives fail and life throws a radical curve that challenges everything we thought we trusted...we learn how much there is to trust about not-knowing...how "the unknown majority" of "the word of God" is outside of our experience.

7) a reaction to the failure of non-perspectivity above all...perhaps prior to becoming some sort of "elder human being":

...faith in some degree of nonduality above all..."the word of God" is simply already always all alls and everywhere. We trust all perspectives of life...but not in opposition to the even greater mysteries we will never know. All are together in one. God has no opposite.

Edited July 17, 2009 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

seems...

the majority of people today live in the first four "faiths"

and the majority of religion today happens in the first and second "faiths"

and all degrees of "faiths" have happened, do happen, and will happen in the context of most all religions

and the ancient wisdom traditions of the world were inspired by (and aspire to) life in the "highest" "faith"

it is people who have different degrees of faith...and interpret and apply text from different "faiths"...NOT the religions

...

the "original" role of religion since the dawn of time

is like what geo pointed out ...and more

"religion" is not only a response to the severe nature of existence

but is a "chain reaction" of responses to responses

all "religions" contain the full range of responses

just as do "non-religions"

but the histories of all the old world religions

are full of people whose "faith" was of the 5th kind and beyond

not only did they include an objective worldview in their doctrine and practice

they served where rational thought fails like everything else

...they were "the ones who died while living."

not irrational...simply one or more degrees of post-rational

but as with all stages of faith

each is somehow hellbent on obliterating the neighboring stages

...particularly the previous one

...

in general...

...our selfishness resists others "taking our power away"

and so resists membership and rationality...but finds a home in pluralism

...our mythicality resists people being selfish

but also resists evidence that debunks our myths

...our rationality resists cultures and subjectivity

but also resists the wilderness of contextual complexity

...our pluralism resists all previous for being hierarchies

but also resists most natural hierarchies and structures of life

each "faith," when held above all others, offers a "flattened" view

..a view that we may cling to as if our lives depended on them

but each "faith" is perhaps best understood as a temporary place, at best

...a place we are already always being pushed and/or pulled through anyway

quite against our will ...or anyone else's

so perhaps more valuable than any one stage of "faith"

is 1) the capacity to honestly examine one's own "faith"

and 2) the capacity to "leap" from one "faith" to another

of course...i may be describing the most difficult act of all

..like flying through the space between two different realities

Edited July 18, 2009 by sirguessalot

[cman]

...our selfishness resists others "taking our power away"

and so resists membership and rationality...but finds a home in pluralism

amazingly ignorant creatures we are

with strokes of pure genius

recognizing who/what is our power reveals much

there is a self still being revealed

selfish? yes, but not all the time

an interesting way of listing the the seven sirg

like the conquering of something we never thought was there

could probably fit them all into transition/transforming.....anywhere

in all faiths and in awkwardly clear moments of in between faiths

certainly nothing much we can do to stop it happening

as if selfishness holds any power to attain

an instinct for preservation, not knowing who is preserving what

but letting go of self for the purpose of just wanting to know

a step back pushes us forward unwillingly

pulling us into worlds of faith, new eyes opening

inward/outward, seeing our nakedness open, we may think all see us

all works together I hear, it's timing is good for all

i think 4 can be the most vicious yet rewarding

but not the end, as it has flavors of all seven to be tasted

4 as i see it anyway, where you know it ain't you doing it anymore

and not to be held captive by it's illumination

a time of openness that requires honest emptying of the self (breath out)

to be filled

[geisha779]

this is a discussion stemming from the gift ministries discussion that i started to get off topic so i'm starting a new discussion here. this was my last post from that discussion:

i have learned to look at things from the perspective of "every day life" to help me keep my wits about me and not be carried away by wanting things so much that i don't see the reality of things but only see what i want to see in things so i apply that alot to alot of subjects and religion is one of those subjects. it was brought up about osama and that's a good example because it's a "today" thing and it's easily understood in "today's" world. in that perspective i bring up the elvis sightings. how many people have seen the "risen" elvis who also saw the living elvis? how many people believe that elvis has risen because of the testimony of those many that have seen the "risen" elvis? and what court of law would accept anybody's "testimony" that the "risen" elvis left "instructions" and his lyrics to the "authority" to someone that had hated elvis, killed elvis fans and stood and held the clothes of a famous fan while that fan was beaten to death but one day on the way to killng more fans the "risen" elvis "visited" him and he "changed" dramatically? it makes no sense and nobody here would buy it for a second.

How deeply have you looked into these things? I sometimes need to examine other perspectives to help me cultivate a more rounded understanding. Mine is a limited scope held prisoner by my own everyday life experience. . . . unless I actively pursue outward considerations my view can be narrow indeed.

Not to point out the obvious, but Elvis never claimed to be the Son of God. The King Of Rock n Roll maybe. . . but not the King of Kings. I don't think people believe he was raised from the dead. . . but that he never died. I get the analogy, but the thing that makes Jesus unique is that He claimed to be the Son of God. The evidence that Paul saw what he saw WAS the life altering change in him. That is a strong witness. He left relative comfort for outright persecution. . . .

There is a really good book by Lee Strobel called The Case for Christ. You should pick it up at the library. It covers so much of this stuff and is well written. It might really interest you. Another is by Josh McDowell called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict".

Mock up trials with real lawyers and judges have been done on the resurrection. . . I bet if you Google it you could find a bunch. The verdict might just surprise you. Law professors have weighed in on this topic. . . it passes the evidence test. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html

Either way, I hope you give it some more serious consideration than equating it to Elvis sightings.

[brainfixed]

having "proof" seems like it's no longer "faith" from the common understanding of that word when it comes to religion. but when it comes to every day things i see "faith" as something more akin to "trust" and that is something that is earned from a proven track record or not earned from a proven track record. what i don't understand is why that would change to accommodate religion?

[cman]

that seems to describe a faith that is more of a wish for something

based upon ideas, thoughts, dreams, imagination (which isn't bad btw)

faith has substance as Hebrews says

something seen, heard, felt, without doubt that it happened or happening

even more then seen, heard felt and others

a inner sense, a knowing, an enlightenment, an entering, if you will

perhaps not much difference between ideas and actual experience

except that to point out that faith does not exclude either

i do like this topic, and it can be explored from within one's self

or from seeing our selves from outside of ourselves....

yeah, it is possible, happens all the time as you may know

good subject brainfixed, thanks

ready for more, cause the possibles are endless

Edited July 20, 2009 by cman

[TrustAndObey]

having "proof" seems like it's no longer "faith" from the common understanding of that word when it comes to religion. but when it comes to every day things i see "faith" as something more akin to "trust" and that is something that is earned from a proven track record or not earned from a proven track record. what i don't understand is why that would change to accommodate religion?

I don't think so much that there was a change to "accommodate" religion, as much as there is more awareness and examination in the process required to put your trust in someone/something than one normally would ever think about and closely examine when it comes to everyday things..

The process of learning to trust in something/someone in everyday life many times begins with unknowns, and a hesitant and cautious approach. But as you grow more aware, the unknowns start to disappear, you start to trust more, and soon you're doing flips into the pool from the 10 meter high-dive that before you were pretty scared to do before. Or you slowly begin that relationship with the significant other with no proof they will reciprocate or it will work out, but later on you're willing to marry that person.

I don't think it is any different with religion. Just religion is examined to the Nth degree compared to other things. But it is the same. That faith/trust begins with many unknowns. So very little proof, except maybe the proof someone said it was so, and you take that first baby step. And it develops (or does not develop) from there depending on like everything else, whether it turns out to be trust worthy or not..

For me, I trust in God, not because I have no proof, but because He has time and again proven He takes care of me. But it didn't start that way, as many things in life don't..

[sirguessalot]

and too, it seems the shape of our "faith" can also be understood as the lense through which we interpret our experiences.

different people can have nearly identical experiences, yet interpret it based on our "faith"...or what we have come to trust...or perhaps even what we want to trust.

...

here is another loose range of examples...in no particular order

"Whenever I dream of Jesus...i am reminded of the stories i read as a child in church. Reminds me to help the poor and the sick."

"Jesus appeared in our pastor's dream last night. He said it was a miracle for the church. And it proves that our church is right."

"I had a dream of Jesus last night. It must have been something I ate. Or it was just that Jesus movie lingering in my brain."

"Jesus appeared for me in a dream last night. It was a miracle for me. And it proves he is my personal supernatural lord."

etc...

Edited July 21, 2009 by sirguessalot

[geisha779]

having "proof" seems like it's no longer "faith" from the common understanding of that word when it comes to religion. but when it comes to every day things i see "faith" as something more akin to "trust" and that is something that is earned from a proven track record or not earned from a proven track record. what i don't understand is why that would change to accommodate religion?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Who says it does change to accommodate a religious faith, more specifically the Christian faith? Remember, we came out of a cult. . . . where faith was deeply imbeded in a certain interpretation of the bible.

Christians put their faith in Jesus Christ. It is an entirely different faith than in TWI where people put their faith in their own knowledge and understanding of the "word".

The Christian faith is a very reasonable faith. However, one must first weigh all the evidence presented and examine it to make a decision to actually believe. Otherwise, it is a blind faith. I am not saying blind faith doesn't happen. . . but, I have yet to understand how that can be real faith. In what. . . a cuz I believe it. . . . kinda thing? Why do we believe it?

A Christian knows. . . "The proof of your faith, being more precious than gold, which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have NOT seen Him you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" 1 Peter 1 7-9

How does one get to that point? Blind faith? No, but what makes one even consider faith in God? The creation?. . . . It can call us to consider. . . all that you can see may cause you to wonder about the unseen or a creator. . . .

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The creation points to a maker. . . not all will see that or agree with that. . . . BUT, does that change that some of us DO see it. . . it is SEEN. . . evidence to us.

The bible. . . a touchy subject. . . I understand that. . . but, the uniqueness of the bible. It is seen by people. . . Its continuity, circulation, survival, prophecy, teaching. . . all unique.

Proven track record? Written over a 1500 year span. . . 40 generations, 40 authors. . . written on different continents. . . 3 different languages. . . all about one unfolding story. . . . Jesus and the redemption of mankind. It is actually amazing.

The witness of not only those in the bible, but the witness of countless Christian martyrs. Countless transformed lives. Paul was not the only man changed by what he saw and believed.

External historical and archeological evidence that lends creedence to the validity of the bible. . . .prophecy. . . the history of the Jewish people.. . .the Christian faith in contrast to other faiths. . . the uniqueness of Christianity. . . . all these things and so much more I could spout. . .

These evidences add up to a decision. . . to believe. Not blind faith, but in things seen and understood. Maybe not in things seen by all or things that can be touched. . . . or held or even smelled. . . but nonetheless. . . real.

People make life and death decisions. . . important life choices. . . based on a whole lot less evidence than there is to believe in God. . . . . to have faith.

Edited July 22, 2009 by geisha779

[Bramble]

Faith and proof are individually decided within a person, not validated or invalidated by others. An 'inner knowing.' People know what they know. That is why it is so hard to force others to believe a certain way, some 'know' something else deep within.

We can decide they lie or are faking, or choose to join them in their beliefs because we think they are right, or accept that they have a different inner reality than we ourselves do.

You are the one who decides if the track record proves anything to you. Or if you want to walk that path and see where it takes you.

[cman]

i don't think faith is limited to Christian or any other religion

the word 'faith' seems to get to thinking of religions

i suppose most would see it as an inner thing

but i do believe it's outwardly expressed as well

which has been and is about religion...sometimes

to say that one has nothing to do with the other wouldn't work with everyone

although i don't have any numbers to back that up

i would say we have been influenced or taught something from many religions

i can change my perspective to see another religion's perspective

...i think.........most of the time....

well.....i've done it with a few anyway....

how's that?

not being bound by any of them i can roam

and learn

without any strings attached

though i have picked up some different,

broader perspectives along the road

so yeah i can change my thinking....

my heart, i don't know...faith/trust/belief

whatever sticks stays till it gets busted up-

or rearranged, destroyed and built again

there's always something good out of it i believe

[Bramble]

The problem I see with looking for outward expressions of faith is that humans can fake very well. They can even fool themselves and refuse to examine what is really with in(like in TWI unrenewed mind stop thought action). They can auto pilot and they can mimic.

I think it takes time to really see what motivates another, because what they might say motivates them might not actually be so--and not even that they are deliberately lying, but because they are unaware. It takes time to really know.

[geisha779]

i have learned to look at things from the perspective of "every day life" to help me keep my wits about me and not be carried away by wanting things so much that i don't see the reality of things but only see what i want to see in things so i apply that alot to alot of subjects and religion is one of those subjects. it was brought up about osama and that's a good example because it's a "today" thing and it's easily understood in "today's" world. in that perspective i bring up the elvis sightings. how many people have seen the "risen" elvis who also saw the living elvis? how many people believe that elvis has risen because of the testimony of those many that have seen the "risen" elvis? and what court of law would accept anybody's "testimony" that the "risen" elvis left "instructions" and his lyrics to the "authority" to someone that had hated elvis, killed elvis fans and stood and held the clothes of a famous fan while that fan was beaten to death but one day on the way to killng more fans the "risen" elvis "visited" him and he "changed" dramatically? it makes no sense and nobody here would buy it for a second.

brainfixed,

Again. . . reading this I have to point out that Elvis never claimed to be the Son of God . . . . he was a god of sorts to many. . . but not the Son of God Himself.

Your reasoning process intrigues me though. . . . :)

I have to ask you . . . why the transformation illustrated in Paul's life is not considered by you to be a powerful witness . . . . supporting the events he describes on the road to Damascus.

He was formerly a religious zealot. Not some guy just doing his job stoning Christians. . . . he was a violent persecutor. . . . feared. . . he was convinced he was doing the right thing in trying to destroy the church.

You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting the church of God and was trying to destroy it. I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors.

His conversion at the very least is convincing enough to believe he BELIEVED what he saw. . . . no?

How about Jesus' own family? His brothers. They mocked Him. . . James was hanging out with the Pharisees. They were embarrassed by Him. Their brother went around claiming to be the way, the truth, and the life! They were around for the miracles too. . . . "Oh, that is just our crazy brother Jesus. . . thinks He is the Son of God or something".

After the crucifixion they were different. . . James died a martyrs death. . . what changed him? Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:7 That he (Jesus) appeared to James after the resurrection. That may have been what got his attention. Would mine.

It is not just one or two eyewitnesses or transformed lives. . . amazing is the account of women as witnesses to the resurrection . . . women witnesses?? They were considered invalid as witnesses. . .they were the first ones to see Him. . . Hostile witnesses. . . alive to be questioned during Paul's life and the time he wrote these things. They could refute these things.

There is a compelling case to be made that the resurrection happened and Paul saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. . . it is not just one instance of an Elvis sighting. . . considering these things does not lead one into some kind of blind faith IMHO.

[cman]

i think i get what brainfixed is saying

basing a belief on a story

either told or written

or not as a base, but just believing it

whatever, can't say it right probably

i hear stories

and i see stories

and i can live a story

that's the breaking point

living it

puts it on the fire

till something or nothing is left

[cman]

see if you can live this

or pick another story

or let the story pick you

http://member.thinkfree.com/myoffice/show.se?f=1285928cc33dce26b47b92dbc4d6a1bc

(over 200 pages, high speed net recommended)

[sirguessalot]

seems to my me...

that just because a story doesn't "make sense" does not make it untrue

and just because a story seems "amazing" does not make it true (or "the most" true)

the ongoing war between "faith" and "reason" seems mostly a misunderstanding

where one is trying to claim that their subjective perspective is an objective one

and the other sees it for the subjectivity it is...but dismisses the value of subjectivity

both positions are too fragmented to resolve the conflict

...

there are also depths and degrees of both subjectivity and objectivity

such as how some find beauty in a flower, or a bird, or the ocean

but not find it in a broken slab of concrete, or puss in a wound

or how someone can take an objective perspective of biochemistry

but not take an objective perspective of religious history

Edited July 22, 2009 by sirguessalot