By the way, I have two kids and I've tried to raise them the same way. (I know this is only marginally on topic, but I can't resist) :-)
My daughter is a freshman at OWU and, like yours, HCW, she hasn't put much emphasis on dating and boyfriends. She's a National Merit Scholar and on the Dean's List and was just nominated to an honor society for Freshmen.
My son is a very silly but bright and caring high school freshmen who would rather listen to country music and watch SpongeBob than get involved with the crap that is hip hop culture.
I have certainly fallen short from time to time in being able to give them what I wanted to, but they know that my love is unconditional. And they know that there are consequences for bad decisions, which helps to make them wise youngsters. There's definitely a balance between giving kids unconditional love and teaching them that they have to live with the consequences of bad decisions as well as enjoy the benefits of good ones.
As Dr Phil says, permissive parenting is the most insidious form of child abuse. My wife runs a Day Care business and we see it everyday. Most parents these days complain that they "can't get their kids" to do what they should. So they comee in tired and malnourished because they stay up too late and eat junk food. The kids have more respect and affection for my wife than they do for their own parents. When they're here, they're happy and well behaved. At home, they're monsters. And the parents still can't seem to figure out why.
Okay, that's enough derailing and soapboxing from me.
But that incorruptible seed we are given is called in Ephesians 1:14, the "earnest of our inheritance. We were taught that the word "earnest" means a token, like a subway token. It's not the real thing, just a downpayment of sorts. Which means that when the time for the token is over, we exchange it for the real thing, (the spiritual body perhaps?). Since it's the earnest of our inheritance and not the full inheritance itself, we can choose not to redeem it. We can get off the train and change destinations.
I've looked at about 10 other english Bible versions & they spin Ephesians 1:14 more like this:
quote:
The Holy Spirit is the first part of what we are to receive from God. This proves that we will get all God has promised. Some day we shall have them all. Praise God! He is very great and wonderful.
Most of them speak of the "earnest" as a down payment, or deposit that guarantees that there is definitely more to come than that.
I'm thinking the new body, living in the new heaven & earth thing is the balance of the promise, secured by the down payment.
I lean that way because the Word does speak specifically about our works, judgement and rewards, in terms of keeping or losing rewards.
quote:
Corinthins 3:13-15
v:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
v:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
v:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away
Noone in the new heaven and earth will remember what was burned.
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away
Noone in the new heaven and earth will remember what was burned.
Congrats on your kids too. You mentioned Dr. Phil.
Dangit, I'd agree with that Dr. Phil remark on child abuse too. I'm sure you've seen how applying discipline via guidance works on children, PERIOD. Even if they are not your own. I'm like "the favorite Dad" in both of my littleone's classes @ school. Its more because I apply a little "don't do that - do this, do what your teacher says" kinda discipline when I'm there more than how much fun I have with them.
Even kids I don't know, especially the Kindergarteners want to give me a hug right after I say, "Hey! STOP that." The discipline actually give children comfort. When they are helped to see boundaries they can work in, they actually chill out, relax & behave "better."
Don't you think? On the surface this is a derail but I do think it relates. I really believe that if we really BELIEVED God was an all powerful Fatrher with unlimited resources and a desire to love us, we'd NEVER consider that his salvation was anything BUT permanent.
Howard, I was looking for this experiment that was done with a group of children in a schoolhouse set on cliff with a fence along the cliff line. The children were very at ease playing all way up to that fence line. Then they took it away and the children without any provocation wouldn't leave the area surrounding the schoolhouse itself. They weren't even comfortable with the distance they normally would have been, it affected them that much. Of course as an adult I too would be intimidated by the fence being removed but it did illustrate in my mind the benefit to boundaries of a form. I learned it wasn't actually a bad word at all.
Well in my failed search I found an article and thought it had some worthy items mixed in. Gotta go. And sorry for the major derail y'all.
quote:
Without boundaries children will have problems in relationships, school, and life. Many times addictive behavior can be traced to lack of boundaries. Here are a few results that can occur:
• Children can have controlling behavior
• Children can be motivated by guilt or anger.
• Without firm boundaries children are more likely to follow their peer group. For example, making unwise choices on sex, drinking, or driving.
• Children do not own their own behavior or consequences, which can lead to life of turmoil.
• Children may allow others to think for them.
• They may allow someone else to define what his or her abilities will be. This denies their maximum potential.
• When someone has weak boundaries they pick up other’s feelings.
• Weak boundaries may make it hard to tell where we end and another person begins.
What is a parent to do? Many times we hinder our children from developing boundaries. Realize we must teach our children boundaries; they are not born with them. Here are a few suggestions to help develop boundaries.
• Recognize and respect the child’s boundaries. For example, knock on their closed bedroom door instead of just walking in.
• Set our own boundaries and have consequences for crossing them.
• Avoid controlling the child.
• Give two choices; this helps our children learn decision-making skills.
• When you recognize that boundaries need to be set. Do it clearly, do it without anger, and use as few words as possible.
• We need to say what hurts us and what feels good.
• It may be difficult to set a boundary. You may feel afraid, ashamed, or nervous, that’s okay, do it anyway.
Another way to work with boundaries and children is to model these for our children.
• Recognize your physical boundaries.
• You have the right to request proper treatment, for example, poorly prepared meals in a restaurant should be sent back, ask others to smoke away from your space, and ask that loud music be turned down.
• Share your opinions with your children. Allow your children their opinions. Opinions are not right or wrong. This will help them think for themselves.
• Teach them how you decide on the choices you make.
• Lets own what we do and what we don’t do. Take responsibility for when things go wrong.
• Accept your thoughts, it is who you are.
• Discover what your limits are, emotional and physical.
Congrats on your kids too. You mentioned Dr. Phil.
Dangit, I'd agree with that Dr. Phil remark on child abuse too. I'm sure you've seen how applying discipline via guidance works on children, PERIOD. Even if they are not your own. I'm like "the favorite Dad" in both of my littleone's classes @ school. Its more because I apply a little "don't do that - do this, do what your teacher says" kinda discipline when I'm there more than how much fun I have with them.
Even kids I don't know, especially the Kindergarteners want to give me a hug right after I say, "Hey! STOP that." The discipline actually give children comfort. When they are helped to see boundaries they can work in, they actually chill out, relax & behave "better."
Don't you think?
Couldn't agree more HCW. Kids love adults who tell them what's okay and what's not. It makes them more peaceful.
I have a few more thoughts that might be able to comfort your hearts concerning this subject.
Hopefully it will help.
The words written in the bible addressed certain people at that time in their lives. If you try to apply it now literally, without the Lord's direction, it will not work, it will never work like that. We tryed it in twi and it didn't work, it will not work like Vince is trying to make it work.
We are to learn the scriptures and learn from other sources as well. That old saying-the word of God is our only rule of faith and practice-will not work. The Lord will put it together for you as you just live. He will bring it to your memory and open our eyes to it. And most likely not when you are reading the scriptures. But just take your time and learn them, especially what Jesus said, and the rest of the bible, what it says, and the Lord will open it to you as he wills.
But here is what we do-
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Ask, seek and knock.
Everyone is at a different place in their lives. So what he will show you may seem like the thing that everyone else needs. But it's for you, and you can teach it as the Lord directs from within. Now personally I've probably screwed this up more then once. But we just move on and hope that things will help people.
Like all this talk about fire and hell. If you have experienced the new birth, it continues to be an unfolding thing as we just live. No need to get anxious about seeing more, it'll come to you, just continue seeking and it will open up. There is no end to how much you can see.
That fire is a good thing you know? It will not even leave a scar. It just seems like hell especially if you have been way off the truth and have even hurt people with it. But Forgiveness is real, very real.
Earlier I said that the baptism of Holy Spirit and fire is unmistakeable. I was wrong. You may not really know what is happening to you. So you may need help from others. E-mail me and I will give you my phone number if you want to talk. Or we can just e-mail back and forth. I don't have all the answers but may be able to help.
If you have experienced the new birth you have passed from death to life. We are to comfort each other concerning this not put doubts about it in each other. That fire that will try everyones work for those who have the new birth will not hurt. You have escaped the wrath to come.
1 Thessolonians 1:9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
turned to God - past tense, already done
which delivered us - past tense, already done
we only have part of that which will come from heaven
Some say it's right after this mortal body passes away
Some say there will be a future gathering together
Both beliefs are from those who have experienced the new birth.
I think it's right after this mortal body passes away. Why would God
wait to bring you to the fullness of what you have received?
If this is true and they are in the new heaven and earth then don't
waste your time trying to talk to them because for them this old
heaven and earth is gone.
Titus 3:3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
We are saved by Grace not by works.
Of course we are encouraged to do good works, we need that encouragement.
But not threats, we do them with love or it's a wasted effort anyway.
For those who have not experienced the new birth and know it, don't worry about it. It'll come in time-if you continue to ask seek and knock. If you think you have the answers by some special formula like many come up with from the bible. You most likely have stopped asking, seeking and knocking. Their is no "doctrine" that will save you. God does the saving.
For those who pass away without having experienced the new birth, is still some what of a mystery to me. I don't know what they will have to deal with. Wrath, yes, but what that means I haven't quite put my finger on it yet. Many people have done great things for others but have not experienced the new birth. Others, of course, have done some very bad things but have not experienced the new birth. But can a person be 100% all bad? I don't think so. And others just cruise through life, not doing anything really wrong and do some good stuff, thinking that they will just have to accept death in the end.
So I think it's going to be an individual thing. Not some group kind of wrath.
As always I believe He works individually with every one on everything.
Our God is a personal God
I do know
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (this includes the old testament people)
And God is Love. Whatever wrath or fire that has or had to be experienced may be, or seem like hell to deal with, but will be gone and forgotten in the new heaven and earth.
We are to learn the scriptures and learn from other sources as well. That old saying-the word of God is our only rule of faith and practice-will not work. The Lord will put it together for you as you just live.
..."Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Thats what GOD says about it. We have no excuses to make about not knowing Him because He's already shown Himself to us - - in EVERYTHING that He made that surrounds us each and every day. (that was Romans 1:19 & 20 above)
Ask, seek, knock; in other words, LOOK FOR HIM.... WHERE?
EVERYWHERE.
If you want to recieve anything from God, first "Ye MUST be BORN - - again. (Again is a simple reminder that it was HIS desire that we bo born in the first place. It is HIS desire the we be BORN - - again.... HE wants US alive not dead.
Then. You must believe IN God and believe that He IS a rewarder of them who diligently seek him.
Where?
Everywhere.
When?
Now.
You want some UNDENIABLE proof of the existence of God???
Huh?
DO ya?
Ok. Here's one.
Tell me why, when it is freezing cold outside, so caold that when your hands get wet they freeze, almost instantly - - but YOUR EYES, which are ALWAYS wet never even get cold?
If you want to recieve anything from God, first "Ye MUST be BORN - - again. (Again is a simple reminder that it was HIS desire that we bo born in the first place. It is HIS desire the we be BORN - - again.... HE wants US alive not dead.
Well actually we have a lot from him without the new birth. We do have everything we need to find him. Just have to look.
And technically he is our Father (new birth or not)because he started this ball of humans rolling in the first place.
Even if someone said something today, as they were moved by the holy spirit, would only apply then. Don't take it and build a freaking ministry around it, worship it, and make it an idol.
Idolatry leads to sacrificing. And it would be people's lives that are sacrificed. It happened in twi and it will happen with V & Co. if they continue in this idolatry!
Hello all. I thought of something en route to work this morning in response to HCW & Chatty Kathy's comments about the love of God. But before I go one step further, let me offer a disclaimer of sorts. This thread began with someone asking about exWay clergy teaching that salvation isn't necessarily permanent. Raf responded by quoting Vince Finnegan's website and giving us a very brief synopsis of what CBC now teaches. I replied by saying that I can understand why they've gone that way, and, in the ensuing week or so, it seems that I have been the only poster on this side of the fence.
I just want to say that I myself have not yet read or heard what Rev Finnegan is teaching about this. What I'm posting is merely based on what I've had the opportunity to study and ponder over the last couple of years. So it is entirely possible that there are serious and noteworthy issues, points, and aspects to this that I haven't even thought about. And, unfortunately, no one here seems to be wiling and able to represent CBC's teaching on this thread. So, if you really want to fully consider both sides of this question, don't stop with me. Get Vince Finnegan's tapes and give them a listen. That's what I'm going to do...
We LEARN from the bible and other sources as well. But we live by the spirit. It's God who is Spirit who is Christ in us that guides us and that will give life and love will energize it.
And shoot, just live love and don't worry about it.
We are not to be GUIDED by letters written long ago. It should not be our rule book. Love is the rule, the balance, the measuring instrument.
Now as I was saying, HCW and Chatty Kathy made some good points about God's love being too big for him to save us and then deny us eternal life. I would say that is a common sentiment. But I think we have two issues to consider here. On one hand we have good people arguing that God loves us too much to let us fail to receive the fulness of his promise. On the other we have people--or person--arguing that God is too righteous to accept people into his kingdom who have chosen a life of sin.
The question is, what's God's primary criteria in judgment; love or righteousness? I dont' intend to try to answer that question here. Partly because I think it would just start another endless debate. But it reminded me of something rather startling that I saw a few years ago as I read the book of Job.
We are all familiar with the story of Job, who, in the words of VP went "victim to victor". Job was a righteous man who loved God and eschewed evil. And to prove that point, God allowed the Devil to afflict Job with instant poverty, heartache, sickness and persecution. I submit that the entire point of the sufferings of Job was so that God could shut the mouth of Job's accuser. God allowed all of this to transpire just to prove in the court of heaven that Job was a genuinely righteous man whose love for God was not based on blessings, but on the integrity of his heart.
Satan told God that Job loved him only because he was blessed and said..."But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face." But Job didn't yield to that temptation and was, in the end, proven to be genuinely righteous.
The story has a happy ending because all that the Devil took away, God restored. But waitaminute. The story has a happy ending...for Job. Widen the scope for a minute and look at the rest of the people involved in this morality play.
quote:
14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
All but one of Job's servants who were tending the oxen and asses were brutally murdered. Their lives were cut short. Why?
quote:
16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
All but one of Job's shepherds were consumed by fire from heaven. God allowed that. Why?
quote:
18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
All of Job's sons were killed in an instant. Now, we look at the book of Job as the trials that befell Job and we rejoice at the happy ending. But for the shepherds murdered by the Sabeans and for the shepherds burned alive by fire from heaven, and for his children crushed to death in the collapsed housee, there was no happy ending. Their lives were sacrificed on the altar of Job's righteousness. God allowed them to be killed to prove that Job was a just man.
Think about that for a minute. Did he love those people? Of course He did. God is love.
But you'll say, "that was under the Law, under the Old Testament, God doesn't do that anymore!"
Malachi says, "I am the Lord, I change not." God was just a loving then as he is now.
Consider also the penalty for the sin of King David's census.(II Samuel chapter 24) For brevity's sake I'll summarize rather than quote it. King David sinned by taking a census of Israel and Judah. He repented and Gad the prophet came in the name of the Lord and offered him three punishements--seven years of famine, three months being pursued by his enemies, or three days of pestilence in Israel. David opted not to be turned over to man and threw himself on the mercy of the Lord. The result was...the angel of death being let loose in Israel. Seventy thousand men died before God "repented of the evil" and stopped it. I hesitate to even mention this because it just blows my mind that seventy thousand people who had nothing to do with King David's sin died for it.
But God is love. And I don't say that sarastically, I believe it with all my heart. But He is also holy and He is a righteous judge and when love and judgment clash, apparently, judgment wins. CM says we're not to live in fear of judgment. The Apostle Peter thought otherwise.
quote:
I Peter 1:13-17[br]13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
And I think that's all I'll say about this for a while.
Jerry, I read your post and see your point. For God to allow such death to relatively innocent people, and we saw another example of this in the recent tidal wave in Asia, God would have to make it up to these people some how. Since they are now dead the only way God could make it up to them is at the final resurrection where he judges mankind. Otherwise for God to allow such a thing to happen He would be neither loving, nor righteous, nor just. Fortunately, I believe God will make it up to these people who have by circumstance received such a relatively unfair fate.
Ultimately, God is responsible for the fate of man. He created man in his own image. He created the earth and the natural and spiritual world which through cause and effect can bring destruction or great blessings to man. If God is truly sovereign He would have to have a way to restore man to his originaly nature created in his own image. Otherwise God is a failure. Fortunately, I think God will ultimately restore man. God might take his sweet time about this, but I do believe in the sovereignty of God who created all things.
I went and read all of this thread. Don't know why I started at the end, but Vince & Company caught my eye.
From his websight,
quote:
Through Jesus Christ, salvation is available as an indisputable free gift to man (Romans 3:21-24). Man cannot save himself (Ephesians 2:5-10). Man has the responsibility to have faith in God and the redeeming work of Christ (Romans 10:9 and 10). Faith implies obedience (James 2:14-26). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must obey. We are required to maintain faith unto the end (Hebrews 3; 6; 10) in order to enter the Kingdom.
These work based theoligies never see the finished work of Christ. They alway return to the vomit from whence they came.
These words jump out of the page, responsibility, obedience, obey, and maintain.
Law Law Law.
Looks to me he gave up on Galatians and chose the book of straw to be his guide.
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def59
JB
Josh McDowell is famous for
"More than a Carpenter"
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Jbarrax
By the way, I have two kids and I've tried to raise them the same way. (I know this is only marginally on topic, but I can't resist) :-)
My daughter is a freshman at OWU and, like yours, HCW, she hasn't put much emphasis on dating and boyfriends. She's a National Merit Scholar and on the Dean's List and was just nominated to an honor society for Freshmen.
My son is a very silly but bright and caring high school freshmen who would rather listen to country music and watch SpongeBob than get involved with the crap that is hip hop culture.
I have certainly fallen short from time to time in being able to give them what I wanted to, but they know that my love is unconditional. And they know that there are consequences for bad decisions, which helps to make them wise youngsters. There's definitely a balance between giving kids unconditional love and teaching them that they have to live with the consequences of bad decisions as well as enjoy the benefits of good ones.
As Dr Phil says, permissive parenting is the most insidious form of child abuse. My wife runs a Day Care business and we see it everyday. Most parents these days complain that they "can't get their kids" to do what they should. So they comee in tired and malnourished because they stay up too late and eat junk food. The kids have more respect and affection for my wife than they do for their own parents. When they're here, they're happy and well behaved. At home, they're monsters. And the parents still can't seem to figure out why.
Okay, that's enough derailing and soapboxing from me.
Peace
JerryB
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CM
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away
Noone in the new heaven and earth will remember what was burned.
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HCW
Yo. CM
If THAT's not cool, I don't know what is...
I can't wait for the day the trumpet sounds.
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HCW
Jb,
Congrats on your kids too. You mentioned Dr. Phil.
Dangit, I'd agree with that Dr. Phil remark on child abuse too. I'm sure you've seen how applying discipline via guidance works on children, PERIOD. Even if they are not your own. I'm like "the favorite Dad" in both of my littleone's classes @ school. Its more because I apply a little "don't do that - do this, do what your teacher says" kinda discipline when I'm there more than how much fun I have with them.
Even kids I don't know, especially the Kindergarteners want to give me a hug right after I say, "Hey! STOP that." The discipline actually give children comfort. When they are helped to see boundaries they can work in, they actually chill out, relax & behave "better."
Don't you think? On the surface this is a derail but I do think it relates. I really believe that if we really BELIEVED God was an all powerful Fatrher with unlimited resources and a desire to love us, we'd NEVER consider that his salvation was anything BUT permanent.
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CM
Vince & Co. are promoting a deadly doctrine.
It promotes thoughts of suicide, not Life and living FREELY to do the Lord's will from the Heart with Love by the Spirit of God.
God loved us First and he Gave. We are to Give from the Heart of Love not by threats.
Do not make the bible your IDOL.
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ChattyKathy
Howard, I was looking for this experiment that was done with a group of children in a schoolhouse set on cliff with a fence along the cliff line. The children were very at ease playing all way up to that fence line. Then they took it away and the children without any provocation wouldn't leave the area surrounding the schoolhouse itself. They weren't even comfortable with the distance they normally would have been, it affected them that much. Of course as an adult I too would be intimidated by the fence being removed but it did illustrate in my mind the benefit to boundaries of a form. I learned it wasn't actually a bad word at all.
Well in my failed search I found an article and thought it had some worthy items mixed in. Gotta go. And sorry for the major derail y'all.
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Jbarrax
Couldn't agree more HCW. Kids love adults who tell them what's okay and what's not. It makes them more peaceful.
Peace
JerryB
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def59
People either live in a libertine fashion, absuing grace, or they promote legalism.
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Oakspear
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def59
You could move to vegas.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hey Def, you're not giving Oak the finger are yea?
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Oakspear
Is it the law that you have to be a libertine there? Or is it just strongly encouraged?
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CM
I have a few more thoughts that might be able to comfort your hearts concerning this subject.
Hopefully it will help.
The words written in the bible addressed certain people at that time in their lives. If you try to apply it now literally, without the Lord's direction, it will not work, it will never work like that. We tryed it in twi and it didn't work, it will not work like Vince is trying to make it work.
We are to learn the scriptures and learn from other sources as well. That old saying-the word of God is our only rule of faith and practice-will not work. The Lord will put it together for you as you just live. He will bring it to your memory and open our eyes to it. And most likely not when you are reading the scriptures. But just take your time and learn them, especially what Jesus said, and the rest of the bible, what it says, and the Lord will open it to you as he wills.
But here is what we do-
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Ask, seek and knock.
Everyone is at a different place in their lives. So what he will show you may seem like the thing that everyone else needs. But it's for you, and you can teach it as the Lord directs from within. Now personally I've probably screwed this up more then once. But we just move on and hope that things will help people.
Like all this talk about fire and hell. If you have experienced the new birth, it continues to be an unfolding thing as we just live. No need to get anxious about seeing more, it'll come to you, just continue seeking and it will open up. There is no end to how much you can see.
That fire is a good thing you know? It will not even leave a scar. It just seems like hell especially if you have been way off the truth and have even hurt people with it. But Forgiveness is real, very real.
Earlier I said that the baptism of Holy Spirit and fire is unmistakeable. I was wrong. You may not really know what is happening to you. So you may need help from others. E-mail me and I will give you my phone number if you want to talk. Or we can just e-mail back and forth. I don't have all the answers but may be able to help.
If you have experienced the new birth you have passed from death to life. We are to comfort each other concerning this not put doubts about it in each other. That fire that will try everyones work for those who have the new birth will not hurt. You have escaped the wrath to come.
1 Thessolonians 1:9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
turned to God - past tense, already done
which delivered us - past tense, already done
we only have part of that which will come from heaven
Some say it's right after this mortal body passes away
Some say there will be a future gathering together
Both beliefs are from those who have experienced the new birth.
I think it's right after this mortal body passes away. Why would God
wait to bring you to the fullness of what you have received?
If this is true and they are in the new heaven and earth then don't
waste your time trying to talk to them because for them this old
heaven and earth is gone.
Titus 3:3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
We are saved by Grace not by works.
Of course we are encouraged to do good works, we need that encouragement.
But not threats, we do them with love or it's a wasted effort anyway.
For those who have not experienced the new birth and know it, don't worry about it. It'll come in time-if you continue to ask seek and knock. If you think you have the answers by some special formula like many come up with from the bible. You most likely have stopped asking, seeking and knocking. Their is no "doctrine" that will save you. God does the saving.
For those who pass away without having experienced the new birth, is still some what of a mystery to me. I don't know what they will have to deal with. Wrath, yes, but what that means I haven't quite put my finger on it yet. Many people have done great things for others but have not experienced the new birth. Others, of course, have done some very bad things but have not experienced the new birth. But can a person be 100% all bad? I don't think so. And others just cruise through life, not doing anything really wrong and do some good stuff, thinking that they will just have to accept death in the end.
So I think it's going to be an individual thing. Not some group kind of wrath.
As always I believe He works individually with every one on everything.
Our God is a personal God
I do know
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (this includes the old testament people)
And God is Love. Whatever wrath or fire that has or had to be experienced may be, or seem like hell to deal with, but will be gone and forgotten in the new heaven and earth.
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HCW
..."Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Thats what GOD says about it. We have no excuses to make about not knowing Him because He's already shown Himself to us - - in EVERYTHING that He made that surrounds us each and every day. (that was Romans 1:19 & 20 above)
Ask, seek, knock; in other words, LOOK FOR HIM.... WHERE?
EVERYWHERE.
If you want to recieve anything from God, first "Ye MUST be BORN - - again. (Again is a simple reminder that it was HIS desire that we bo born in the first place. It is HIS desire the we be BORN - - again.... HE wants US alive not dead.
Then. You must believe IN God and believe that He IS a rewarder of them who diligently seek him.
Where?
Everywhere.
When?
Now.
You want some UNDENIABLE proof of the existence of God???
Huh?
DO ya?
Ok. Here's one.
Tell me why, when it is freezing cold outside, so caold that when your hands get wet they freeze, almost instantly - - but YOUR EYES, which are ALWAYS wet never even get cold?
Random evolutionary chance, right?
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CM
Well actually we have a lot from him without the new birth. We do have everything we need to find him. Just have to look.
And technically he is our Father (new birth or not)because he started this ball of humans rolling in the first place.
But some good points there HCW.
Yeah...he wants us alive not dead...
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CWF
CM,
I missed something. What's the deadly doctrine?
CWF
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CM
Trying to live by the letter of the Law-the bible-new or old testament-kills.
It's the spirit that gives life.
Look at those verses in this light.
You cannot make the bible work and give life on it's own. It will kill. Haven't we learned anything from our experience in twi?
V & Co. are taking things literally from the bible and trying to apply it today. It will not work.
Go back and look at the one who started this thread and see what thoughts it promoted there.
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CM
Even if someone said something today, as they were moved by the holy spirit, would only apply then. Don't take it and build a freaking ministry around it, worship it, and make it an idol.
Idolatry leads to sacrificing. And it would be people's lives that are sacrificed. It happened in twi and it will happen with V & Co. if they continue in this idolatry!
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Jbarrax
Hello all. I thought of something en route to work this morning in response to HCW & Chatty Kathy's comments about the love of God. But before I go one step further, let me offer a disclaimer of sorts. This thread began with someone asking about exWay clergy teaching that salvation isn't necessarily permanent. Raf responded by quoting Vince Finnegan's website and giving us a very brief synopsis of what CBC now teaches. I replied by saying that I can understand why they've gone that way, and, in the ensuing week or so, it seems that I have been the only poster on this side of the fence.
I just want to say that I myself have not yet read or heard what Rev Finnegan is teaching about this. What I'm posting is merely based on what I've had the opportunity to study and ponder over the last couple of years. So it is entirely possible that there are serious and noteworthy issues, points, and aspects to this that I haven't even thought about. And, unfortunately, no one here seems to be wiling and able to represent CBC's teaching on this thread. So, if you really want to fully consider both sides of this question, don't stop with me. Get Vince Finnegan's tapes and give them a listen. That's what I'm going to do...
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CM
CWF, here's a little more to consider....
We LEARN from the bible and other sources as well. But we live by the spirit. It's God who is Spirit who is Christ in us that guides us and that will give life and love will energize it.
And shoot, just live love and don't worry about it.
We are not to be GUIDED by letters written long ago. It should not be our rule book. Love is the rule, the balance, the measuring instrument.
Where's the love in what they are doing?
(done for tonight, it's been a long day)
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Jbarrax
Now as I was saying, HCW and Chatty Kathy made some good points about God's love being too big for him to save us and then deny us eternal life. I would say that is a common sentiment. But I think we have two issues to consider here. On one hand we have good people arguing that God loves us too much to let us fail to receive the fulness of his promise. On the other we have people--or person--arguing that God is too righteous to accept people into his kingdom who have chosen a life of sin.
The question is, what's God's primary criteria in judgment; love or righteousness? I dont' intend to try to answer that question here. Partly because I think it would just start another endless debate. But it reminded me of something rather startling that I saw a few years ago as I read the book of Job.
We are all familiar with the story of Job, who, in the words of VP went "victim to victor". Job was a righteous man who loved God and eschewed evil. And to prove that point, God allowed the Devil to afflict Job with instant poverty, heartache, sickness and persecution. I submit that the entire point of the sufferings of Job was so that God could shut the mouth of Job's accuser. God allowed all of this to transpire just to prove in the court of heaven that Job was a genuinely righteous man whose love for God was not based on blessings, but on the integrity of his heart.
Satan told God that Job loved him only because he was blessed and said..."But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face." But Job didn't yield to that temptation and was, in the end, proven to be genuinely righteous.
The story has a happy ending because all that the Devil took away, God restored. But waitaminute. The story has a happy ending...for Job. Widen the scope for a minute and look at the rest of the people involved in this morality play.
All but one of Job's servants who were tending the oxen and asses were brutally murdered. Their lives were cut short. Why?
All but one of Job's shepherds were consumed by fire from heaven. God allowed that. Why?
All of Job's sons were killed in an instant. Now, we look at the book of Job as the trials that befell Job and we rejoice at the happy ending. But for the shepherds murdered by the Sabeans and for the shepherds burned alive by fire from heaven, and for his children crushed to death in the collapsed housee, there was no happy ending. Their lives were sacrificed on the altar of Job's righteousness. God allowed them to be killed to prove that Job was a just man.
Think about that for a minute. Did he love those people? Of course He did. God is love.
But you'll say, "that was under the Law, under the Old Testament, God doesn't do that anymore!"
Malachi says, "I am the Lord, I change not." God was just a loving then as he is now.
Consider also the penalty for the sin of King David's census.(II Samuel chapter 24) For brevity's sake I'll summarize rather than quote it. King David sinned by taking a census of Israel and Judah. He repented and Gad the prophet came in the name of the Lord and offered him three punishements--seven years of famine, three months being pursued by his enemies, or three days of pestilence in Israel. David opted not to be turned over to man and threw himself on the mercy of the Lord. The result was...the angel of death being let loose in Israel. Seventy thousand men died before God "repented of the evil" and stopped it. I hesitate to even mention this because it just blows my mind that seventy thousand people who had nothing to do with King David's sin died for it.
But God is love. And I don't say that sarastically, I believe it with all my heart. But He is also holy and He is a righteous judge and when love and judgment clash, apparently, judgment wins. CM says we're not to live in fear of judgment. The Apostle Peter thought otherwise.
And I think that's all I'll say about this for a while.
Peace
JerryB
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Mark Sanguinetti
Jerry, I read your post and see your point. For God to allow such death to relatively innocent people, and we saw another example of this in the recent tidal wave in Asia, God would have to make it up to these people some how. Since they are now dead the only way God could make it up to them is at the final resurrection where he judges mankind. Otherwise for God to allow such a thing to happen He would be neither loving, nor righteous, nor just. Fortunately, I believe God will make it up to these people who have by circumstance received such a relatively unfair fate.
Ultimately, God is responsible for the fate of man. He created man in his own image. He created the earth and the natural and spiritual world which through cause and effect can bring destruction or great blessings to man. If God is truly sovereign He would have to have a way to restore man to his originaly nature created in his own image. Otherwise God is a failure. Fortunately, I think God will ultimately restore man. God might take his sweet time about this, but I do believe in the sovereignty of God who created all things.
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CWF
CM
I went and read all of this thread. Don't know why I started at the end, but Vince & Company caught my eye.
From his websight,
These work based theoligies never see the finished work of Christ. They alway return to the vomit from whence they came.
These words jump out of the page, responsibility, obedience, obey, and maintain.
Law Law Law.
Looks to me he gave up on Galatians and chose the book of straw to be his guide.
First thing understood is the first thing lost.
CWF
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