Just a few thoughts here. There is so much involved - like Gen, I don't have the time to go into all the details, not do I have the present ability. God knows I've read about these things in the Word & other places and thought about them off and on for years. Lately, especially, I've been working many of these things.
I still basically believe (with additions) what Wierwille - and others - have and do teach on the matter(s).
Briefly, again, like Gen, I have a problem with what to so with the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Promise of the Father, that came on the day of Pentecost - if every believer in all time gets the same thing. Through the One Spirit, Jesus Christ is the head over all things that have to do with the One Body. God wants us to know as a reality the His power that He put in Christ when he raised him from the dead. Through the One Baptism of the church of the One Body, we have access to that realithy through the One Spirit. This reality started at a point in time and continues to this present day. This is different, no? One NEW man?
I'm reading Global Warning by Tim LaHaye. He covers many of the things that have been brought up in this discussion & seems to do a fine job placing what's going on presently and what has been going on in relation to the scriptures. Some are possibilities. Others are quite certain, biblically. He separates them nicely. I'm not an expert, so I can't definitively recommend it, but, from my limited viewpoint, I do highly recommend it. It is very readable. It is quite an education.
Looking at Jesus, the author and finisher of believing who is still finishing his work in all of us.
My NIV says that the firstfruits, Christ, was the guarantee of the resurrection of all who are redeemed, "Christ was raised in his own time in history and those who are identified with Christ will be raised at his second coming".
Also this, which you brought up...
Matthew 27
52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
It's interesting that that account only appears in Matthew. Who were these holy people?
Corinthians says only that Jesus appeared to "more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time" (v.6, which, as we discussed a while ago, is the only scripture that says that over 500 people saw Jesus after the resurrection), it doesn't say anyone else was with him.
The new ESV study bible says this about those saints who were raised...and it is important to remember(remind your friend next time this comes up :) )....that Matthew sometimes stays on topic....and is not necessarily chronologically arranged......
"saints who had fallen asleep. Probably pious OT figures and godly intertestamental Jews, reembodied to witness to the new order of things that was now in the process of dawning. This shows that the resurrection of people who died looking forward to the Messiah depends on Christ's actual death and resurrection, just as does the future resurrection of Jesus' disciples today.coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city. Matthew apparently jumps ahead here (treating materials topically, as he often does) and begins to speak of events that would happen after the resurrection. The wording suggests that these saints were not merely brought back to life (like Lazarus; John 11:44) but were "raised" (Matt. 27:52) with new, resurrection bodies, a foretaste of what would happen to all believers at Christ's return. No other historical information about this event has been found, but it is natural to suppose that if they had resurrection bodies, they would not have died again. They may have been taken up to heaven at or after Jesus' ascension......"
We just don't know a great deal about them. . . .our focus is not really drawn to that event....but, instead to who and what caused it to happen....so, it kind of begins and ends right there. We don't really know a lot about that part of what happened.
I was just playing with the reading of 1 Corinthians 15:23......One resurrection.....3 different timings.....Christ .....then the first fruits...those who believed in His coming (OT saints)Makes that verse about who those holy people were, at least fit......Next, we that are His at His return......and then the tribulation saints. It is still part of one resurrection of the Just...and it fits with the harvest analogy. I am not sold out to that......Just thinking out loud. :) You should hear me talk to myself!!
Okay, so I'm cruising along with the thought that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile now with respect to who can be saved in our day and time. This would necessitate a couple of things to happen. There would have to be a day when all of those alive (that will believe) comes to a conclusion, On that day, which God alone knows, he sends Christ to gather his people, and they meet him in the air, the dead and the living. This would be the first resurrection. The dead in Christ would be all the believers before the law that God judged worthy, all who lived under the law whom god judged worthy, and all the "born again" - along with any others God chose to have.
At that moment, the only people left on earth are,... well,... Unjust. When the last one of them dies, there would be nothing left for them than the resurrection of the unjust, which, at that point, would be anyone that God didn't get up earlier. As far as I can tell, they pretty much annihilate each other somehow.
So the only problem with all that, would be if the scripture starts mentioning people that are brought in between the two resurrections that believe, because they missed the Good ressurection boat.....
I wonder why it is necessary that all who will believe concludes before God can act? The gospel is to be preached every where....but, is there a understanding I am missing? During the tribulation period people believe. . . .I could be missing a point.
The gospel will still be heard after the saints are gathered, right? Even angels can preach the gospel?
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (take note TWI)
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
The time of tribulation where judgment is poured out is STILL a time for God's mercy.....people will still be brought to repentance. That is great mercy. They may die....but, Jesus has overcome death. What I don't quite understand is why we think God would spare us from the tribulation? He never has.
Just thinking out loud.
We are spared from the wrath to come......what wrath? God's final judgment? Or, the tribulation period which still reflects God's mercy?
Why would God spare one generation for 7 years?.....Remember, there are Christians suffering horrible persecution, tribulation, and martyrdom....right now. Christians under Nero were burned as garden lamps for his parties. Christians have never been spared tribulation.
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace.In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."
Simply things I am really beginning to wonder about.
Let's take this a step at a time because this is a difficult subject for me and I get confused...
Okay, so I'm cruising along with the thought that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile now with respect to who can be saved in our day and time.
Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6, NIV).
Since Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Savior, how can they be saved? It seems to me that for that to happen Jesus would have to return to earth and make Himself known to the whole world. How else can all men be "without excuse"? (see Romans 1:20)
So...Is there salvation apart from Jesus? The way I read scripture less that 33% of the human race (those Christians who truly believe in Jesus and the resurrection) will make it to God's kingdom. It seems to me that God would have liked better than a 33% yield on the seeds of his creation, don'tcha think?
BTW I'm not judging anyone's beliefs here (I'm undecided myself). I'm just playing "devil's advocate" for the sake of discussion.
I think there is somewhere in the tribulation where it says that all who believe are killed. I think that is what Gen is talking about.
Also, in Romans where Paul is talking to gentiles in regard to the branches being grafted into the olive tree, he is not talking to gentile believers. Paul is saying that if the gentiles continue in unbelief, their opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree will end just like Israel's did because of unbelief. And if Israel believes, they will be grafted in again.
Pretty sure of that.
Of course, Paul is saying more than what I just said - just trying to clarify.
I wonder why it is necessary that all who will believe concludes before God can act? The gospel is to be preached every where....but, is there a understanding I am missing? During the tribulation period people believe. . . .
First thing is, please educate me...when is the "tribulation period" supposed to begin?
This topic is a little advanced for me. I haven't finished the NT yet (I haven't read Revelation) nor have I read Daniel, Isiah or the later prophets. So I can't really talk about this subject intelligently.
However, I'm still wondering about those holy people resurrected after Jesus (Mat 27:51-53). My NIV doesn't have a lot to say about it.
I wonder why it is necessary that all who will believe concludes before God can act? The gospel is to be preached every where....but, is there a understanding I am missing? During the tribulation period people believe. . . .I could be missing a point.
well the point is - We don't know when. Jesus doesn't know when, Only the Father. ...could be today, tomorrow,... any day in the future.
The "...all who will believe concludes before God can act..." which you mention, isn't my idea, But I'll address it. When God acts, certain things will have concluded when He does. Think of it that way instead of in the reverse, with God as the cause.
Let's take this a step at a time because this is a difficult subject for me and I get confused...
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Gen-2, on 24 April 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:Okay, so I'm cruising along with the thought that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile now with respect to who can be saved in our day and time.
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Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6, NIV).
Since Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Savior, how can they be saved? It seems to me that for that to happen Jesus would have to return to earth and make Himself known to the whole world. How else can all men be "without excuse"? (see Romans 1:20)
So...Is there salvation apart from Jesus? The way I read scripture less that 33% of the human race (those Christians who truly believe in Jesus and the resurrection) will make it to God's kingdom. It seems to me that God would have liked better than a 33% yield on the seeds of his creation, don'tcha think?
BTW I'm not judging anyone's beliefs here (I'm undecided myself). I'm just playing "devil's advocate" for the sake of discussion.
The Jews between Pentecost and the return of Christ get saved in the same manner, My father was a Jew, born and raised. My mother was a Catholic, born and raised. They both got born again. They can both claim God as their Father. I didn't know anyone had a problem with this?
I'm sure the just and unjust is not talking about 2 groups of people.
Amen to that cman! How this all goes down, is all up to God to sort out. While I will assume the Resurrection of the Just will resurrect "just", and the Resurrection of the Unjust will resurrect "unjust", it is God who will decide who is who - AND it does not rule out the possibility that He will do marvelous things never mentioned.
Personally - I see many times, in the bible, that people "get up" and not all of them have the same disposition (they don't all go to the same place or do the same thing). What I believe doesn't exactly line up with VPW or with this Gathering/Resurrection thing (although it has it merits, it has a lot of bumps in its road, as is).
The Jews between Pentecost and the return of Christ get saved in the same manner, My father was a Jew, born and raised. My mother was a Catholic, born and raised. They both got born again. They can both claim God as their Father. I didn't know anyone had a problem with this?
Your father is saved because he converted to Christianity. But what about all the other Jews who haven't converted?
Having lived in NY all my life I know many, many Jewish people. Heck, I have neices, nephews and in-laws who are Jewish. I don't evaluate or judge their religion. It's not in me to do that.
And I don't talk about personal salvation with them. I'm not here to convert them, nor are they here to convert me. We honor and respect each other's religions and holidays.
Will they make it to God's kingdom according to Jesus? I'm certain they will, but then what do I know?
I had this discussion with some Calvinists in another forum. They seem to be very rigid in their thinking...it's the Jesus-way or no-way.
Your father is saved because he converted to Christianity. But what about all the other Jews who haven't converted?
Having lived in NY all my life I know many, many Jewish people. Heck, I have neices, nephews and in-laws who are Jewish. I don't evaluate or judge their religion. It's not in me to do that.
And I don't talk about personal salvation with them. I'm not here to convert them, nor are they here to convert me. We honor and respect each other's religions and holidays.
Will they make it to God's kingdom according to Jesus? I'm certain they will, but then what do I know?
I had this discussion with some Calvinists in another forum. They seem to be very rigid in their thinking...it's the Jesus-way or no-way.
My father told me this, soul-searcher. "To be honest, most Jews today do the law so poorly that they have little hope of achieving their salvation, unless God is willing to overlook or forgive the larger entirety of their lives." That's a note in his bible. If you discount the new testament, the Jews stand a better chance? ...maybe, maybe not. I guess it does depend on whether or not Christ is the Messiah. Most Jews (and I know a lot of them) rarely think about the messiah. Some (many) believe that it is a matter of little consequence in their lives.
So there you have it. If Christ was/is the messiah, then yeah, they've got some major problems in having Rejected God's Messiah. If he's not the Messiah, we all have major problems.... Hope that answers your Q!
Briefly, again, like Gen, I have a problem with what to so with the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Promise of the Father, that came on the day of Pentecost - if every believer in all time gets the same thing.
Looking at Jesus, the author and finisher of believing who is still finishing his work in all of us.
Tom
I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself. I think salvation is the Spirit of resurrection life promised in Ezekiel 37:14 that will be poured out when the Lord appears. I think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is the earnest of our inheritance (the Spirit of resurrection life) until the redemption of the purchased possession (in the age to come) according to Ephesians 1:14.
Receiving the gift of the holy Spirit is conditional upon confessing the Lord Jesus (however a person words it) and believing that God raised Him from the Dead. I think the master/servant relation a person enters into when he or she confesses the Lord Jesus is permanent. I don't think a person can "lose their salvation", but I think there are painful consequences, at least in the short term, for people who turn their backs on their Master.
I think that Jesus Christ Himself is going to be the judge of every single one of us, and His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy. I no longer try to put His judgment into my very little box. I can't judge other peoples' hearts. I am decieved by my own.
Also, in Romans where Paul is talking to gentiles in regard to the branches being grafted into the olive tree, he is not talking to gentile believers. Paul is saying that if the gentiles continue in unbelief, their opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree will end just like Israel's did because of unbelief. And if Israel believes, they will be grafted in again.
Pretty sure of that.
Of course, Paul is saying more than what I just said - just trying to clarify.
Things get much clearer when we read what's actually written in Romans 11:13-25, rather than simply go on Wierwille's unsupported word. The whole book of Romans addresses a rift that had arisen in that city between the believers of Jewish background and the believers of Gentile background. All of the Jews and all of the Gentiles addressed in the book of Romans are among "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Romans 1:7).
The Gentiles of Romans 11:13 are already Christians, because Paul calls them "brethren" in 11:25, a term he didn't throw around lightly. He also writes in verse 20 that these Gentiles "stand by faith".
The branches broken off were those of Israel who chose not to believe. The branches that were NOT broken off are the believing remnant of Israel, and Paul uses himself as an example of such in Romans 11:1. The branches that were grafted in are Gentiles who also chose to believe.
Believe what? The promises God originally made to Israel that found fulfillment, both punishment and reward, in Jesus Christ.
The root of the tree are the promises God made to Israel. Gentile believers are not to boast against Jewish believers because the promises God made to Israel support the Gentile believers in Christ, not the other way around.
The Church consists of the believing remnant of Israel under the New Testament promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, with believing Gentiles grafted in on the same basis as believing Israel, by grace through faith. The believing remnant in the Gospels, the Bride of Christ, has become the Body of Christ after Pentecost, through the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24.
Darby, Bullinger, Scofield and Wierwille read foreign meanings into what was written, specifically, they misinterpreted oikonomia to mean "a period of time", in order to teach that the Chuerch is a "wholly new thing", completely separate and discontinuous from Israel.
Since your head is geared towards this, or any of you that have more time than I, I'll ask a favor. Do the concepts VPW taught concerning Bride & Body reconcile themselves in light of this? The Way's classes taught a division in Bride and Body that might have been artificial due to his divisions in Administrations, and what of the oikonomia and such?
I did a look at the word my Young's concordance transliterates as OIKONOMIA this weekend for a bit. It was translated as "dispensation" four times and also as "stewardship" thrice in the King James version......
Luke 16: (NKJV from here on out in this post)
1 He also said to His disciples: “There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods.
2 So he called him and said to him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your "STEWARDSHIP", for you can no longer be steward.’
3 “Then the steward said within himself, ‘What shall I do? For my master is taking the "STEWARDSHIP" away from me. I cannot dig; I am ashamed to beg.
4 I have resolved what to do, that when I am put out of the "STEWARDSHIP", they may receive me into their houses.Â’
For me it seems plain that "stewardship" involves being given responsibilities within a household and being accountable to the owner too.
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1 Co 9:
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!
17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a "STEWARDSHIP".
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
This section makes it plain to me that Paul was a servant in the Lord's house and had reponsibilities.
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Eph 3:
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the "DISPENSATION" of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
As before, I see plainly that Paul's responsibility was to bring the gentiles into the fold, but as I said before I believe the promises were there for Israel already. The secret part was that us gentiles would be "fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers..." Any more than that I believe is unwise considerations, even leading to a brand new hope that I don't believe is actually stated in the scriptures.
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Col 1:
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the "STEWARDSHIP" from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
IMO try as one might to make OIKONOMIA refer to a period of time, it simply refers to responsibility within the Lord's house, plain and simple. :)
There still is - something that happened on Pentecost that seperates us from believers of the days of yore, ... SO why (now) did Christ have to die if we're not getting something "special". I mean, I'd assume that Abraham and Noah, both gentiles, will be in the resurrection of the just, so why the sacrifice? Just to make it easier? Maybe that's the grace through which we were saved. God making it easier for us than the Law had been for them. But even the Jews that accept the new birth come in under this grace since pentecost, though they rebelled and wanted to keep the laws, rather than accept it.
Eph 1:
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the "DISPENSATION" of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Going along with what Steve posted earlier about this usage of "gather together" it seems that the Lord's job (responsibility, stewardship) is to head up everything. Heavenly Jerusalem, believers still on the earth, and all the rest. But here it says "IN ONE", not seperate hopes.
My best explanation for penacost is still what Pater said on that day.....
Acts 2: (comments in this color)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: (Wierwille said This is LIKE that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.... That's because he was wrong about his so called "dispensation."
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.Â’
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
25 For David says concerning Him:
‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.Â’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘ The LORD said to my Lord,
“ Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Yes, we gentiles have been blessed and brought into the fold through the events that initiated on the day of pentacost according as the scriptures and also our own Lord's words (also scripture I guess) record. But God did not make our time period a secret, just that the gentiles would become fellowheirs, of one body with them.
In order to separate the Church completely from Israel, Darby had to insert a "parenthetical" period of time into "God's plan for the ages". Darby chose Pentecost as the time for opening the parenthesis, and invented a "pre-tribulation rapture" of the Church to close it.
But Pentecost was not the beginning of a "wholly new thing". It was a well established and understood festival in the Jewish annual cycle.
Two Old Testament passages set the understanding of Pentecost, Leviticus 23:15-21 and Deuteronomy 16:9-11. Here is the passage from Deuteronomy 16,
"9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
"10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thy hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
"11 And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord hath chosen to place his name there.
The feast of Pentecost was the freewill thank offering of the firstfruit of the wheat harvest. The wheat harvest is often used as a symbol for the resurrection.
On the day of Pentecost recorded in Acts chapter 2, Jesus Christ, as the High Priest of the New Testament, offered Himself, as firstfruit of the resurrection, to God as a freewill thank offering. God accepted Jesus' sacrifice, exalted Him to the position of Lord of glory, gave Him the promised gift of holy Spirit, and Jesus in turn poured that Spirit out onto whosoever should call on the name of the Lord.
The recipients of the gift then gave back to God of that which with which they had been blessed, magnifying God with perfect prayer and praise, speaking in the Spirit.
And despite Wierwille's protestation that Peter meant "This is LIKE that which was spoken by the prophet Joel", Wierwille was dead wrong. It WAS that which was spoken by the prophet Joel!
I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself. I think salvation is the Spirit of resurrection life promised in Ezekiel 37:14 that will be poured out when the Lord appears. I think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is the earnest of our inheritance (the Spirit of resurrection life) until the redemption of the purchased possession (in the age to come) according to Ephesians 1:14.
Receiving the gift of the holy Spirit is conditional upon confessing the Lord Jesus (however a person words it) and believing that God raised Him from the Dead. I think the master/servant relation a person enters into when he or she confesses the Lord Jesus is permanent. I don't think a person can "lose their salvation", but I think there are painful consequences, at least in the short term, for people who turn their backs on their Master.
I think that Jesus Christ Himself is going to be the judge of every single one of us, and His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy. I no longer try to put His judgment into my very little box. I can't judge other peoples' hearts. I am decieved by my own.
Love,
Steve
Not sure what you are saying here, Steve, when you say, "I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself." Unless all you mean is that it is not the whole enchilada.
We have the spirit of a sound mind - there's wholeness in that. Via the One Spirit, we are members in particular in the One Body of Christ who IS the resurrection and the life. He is presently glorified and presently filling us up with the stuff of glory. That's salvation wholeness.
Sure we are saved to & by the Hope. But likewise, the Spirit also helps us (Rom. 24-26). "Likewise?" Like what wise? Like the Hope will make us whole, so the Spirit makes us whole now. As far as I can see, the word likewise can mean:
1. in a similar manner
2. partly in the same manner while partly in a different manner
3. entirely in the same way because it IS the same way
Also, as far as I can see it, Romans is using the 3rd sense of "likewise." I think the whole of the rest of Rom. 8 swings on this word "likewise." The Spirit is the reality of the Hope of Glory - the glorified Christ - changing us now to be like him (as Rom. 8:28-30 goes on to say). Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, is just not finished with the work yet, but it is the same work.
Also Steve, I sense a tone of heavy judgment on yourself by yourself. Perhaps I'm wrong, but RE: "His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy." I would say rather than mercy tempering justice, mercy rejoices against justice, brother. Psalms 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
You know the truth of your deceitful heart better than anyone, & Lord knows I know mine, but God is greater than our hearts. I believe, to our amazement, if we could see ourselves through God's eyes instead of our own, we would see him holding us in the palms of his hands calling us faithful because he sees the continual yearning in our hearts to know him. And we would cry and be unburdened (or maybe burdened with the burden of Christ which is light:))
Well, we CAN know THAT much about our loving heavenly Father
I think that Jesus Christ Himself is going to be the judge of every single one of us, and His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy. I no longer try to put His judgment into my very little box. I can't judge other peoples' hearts. I am decieved by my own.
Love,
Steve
I think the bible teaches us to judge too Steve, Paul did seem to spend some time working with the Corinthians concerning good judgement, right?
When I read your statement about judgement as pertaining to His and yours I couldn't help but wonder what the specific lessons were for you. I like it when we learn the easy way, but it seems to not happen like that for me all the time either. :B)
Romans 2 (NIV)
God's Righteous Judgment
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares
________________________________
The thing about all this for me is that I don't expect to know other people, their cultures, or their secrets. But I do expect that God will and does, and I expect Him to get it right for everybody. I have no time for a preacher who expects God to condemn everybody but US (Whoever "US" is) because my bible doesn't say He will condemn them, it says He will judge them.
Both Jew, and Gentile will be judged according to their works, consciences, and secrets. And it's not my job to guess how God will judge them, but I do expect it to be just when HE HIMSELF judges His judgement...Ghandi?, I don't know.... Sadat?, I don't know!...Saladin?, I don't know!...David Ben Gurion?, I don't know!
But as with what Paul was seemingly trying to show the Corinthians there is a good place for judgement too in this life.....
1 Corinthians 6:
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
I just looked at the word "judge" in the epistles...lots of places, lots of things we are apparently supposed to learn to judge.
Not sure what you are saying here, Steve, when you say, "I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself." Unless all you mean is that it is not the whole enchilada.
...
Bless you brother,
Tom
Yeah... what you said about the enchilada. Except, not only do I not think we have the whole enchilada yet, it's more like we can only smell it right now. Salvation is a lot bigger than Wierwille taught.
I John 3:1-3
"1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world [cosmos] knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
"2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
Wierwille didn't purify himself. His hope of salvation must have been defective. I think Wierwille's own over-inflated sense of self-importance left little room in his heart for the magnitude of the salvation that Christ wrought. The purpose of thinking that is not to condemn Wierwille, but to remind myself not to over-inflate my own sense of self-importance.
I think the bible teaches us to judge too Steve, Paul did seem to spend some time working with the Corinthians concerning good judgement, right?
When I read your statement about judgement as pertaining to His and yours I couldn't help but wonder what the specific lessons were for you. I like it when we learn the easy way, but it seems to not happen like that for me all the time either. :B)
Romans 2 (NIV)
God's Righteous Judgment
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares
________________________________
The thing about all this for me is that I don't expect to know other people, their cultures, or their secrets. But I do expect that God will and does, and I expect Him to get it right for everybody. I have no time for a preacher who expects God to condemn everybody but US (Whoever "US" is) because my bible doesn't say He will condemn them, it says He will judge them.
Both Jew, and Gentile will be judged according to their works, consciences, and secrets. And it's not my job to guess how God will judge them, but I do expect it to be just when HE HIMSELF judges His judgement...Ghandi?, I don't know.... Sadat?, I don't know!...Saladin?, I don't know!...David Ben Gurion?, I don't know!
But as with what Paul was seemingly trying to show the Corinthians there is a good place for judgement too in this life.....
1 Corinthians 6:
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
I just looked at the word "judge" in the epistles...lots of places, lots of things we are apparently supposed to learn to judge.
Good stuff, Jeff!
When I was looking at uses of "judgment" in the epistles, I was struck by Phillipians 1:9, "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;"
The use of the preposition "in" of this verse is instrumental, that is to say, love increasingly overflows by the instruments of knowledge and all judgment. The word translated "judgment" is aisthesis, which is the Greek word we get "aesthetics" from. Aistheterion, a cognate of aisthesis, also occurs in Hebrews 5,
"14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses [aistheteria] exercised to discern both good and evil."
I think "judgment" can be viewed as the mental activity of comparing two or more pieces of knowledge and concluding how they are related. I think God designed our minds to do this, and gave us His Word so that we could tell the difference between things that are right and things that are wrong. I think exercising judgment is a key element in walking by the Spirit, which enables our love to overflow yet more and more.
However, I know I am not qualified to judge any person, not even myself, in the sense of justifying or condemning that person. Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ ONLY, is qualified to do that, because He is the only one who has been tempted in all things like as we are, yet without sin. That's why God the Father turned the job over to Jesus. God has not been tempted. He CAN'T be tempted.
The thing about all this for me is that I don't expect to know other people, their cultures, or their secrets. But I do expect that God will and does, and I expect Him to get it right for everybody. I have no time for a preacher who expects God to condemn everybody but US (Whoever "US" is) because my bible doesn't say He will condemn them, it says He will judge them.
Yes, but doesn't the first part of Romans do a pretty good job in laying out the case that all men are sinners? Wouldn't that condemn us already? No one seeks God? That is a judgment and a sentence passed already.....Romans is....Righteousness denied....Righteousness supplied...and Righteousness applied.
Now, I may be reading you wrong.....but, there is no other righteousness than what God Himself supplies....right? And that is through the atoning work of Christ? This also includes our righteous deeds.(Filthy rags) We are condemned already...we are under the condemnation of sin. That is where righteousness supplied comes in.
When Paul is speaking of God judging according to works.....do you think that means whether someone merits salvation according to their works? Or am I confused? I don't want to jump to conclusions.
Or are you saying....works which come from obedience....which comes from genuine faith....given by God, that will be judged?
However, I know I am not qualified to judge any person, not even myself, in the sense of justifying or condemning that person. Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ ONLY, is qualified to do that, because He is the only one who has been tempted in all things like as we are, yet without sin. That's why God the Father turned the job over to Jesus. God has not been tempted. He CAN'T be tempted.
Love,
Steve
I'm afraid my weakness for hyperbole clouded my judgment when I wrote the paragraph above. It's God who does the judging. But He does it through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our advocate. His endurance of temptation without giving in to sin is what qualifies Jesus to be our advocate with God. My bad...
However, I know I am not qualified to judge any person, not even myself, in the sense of justifying or condemning that person. Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ ONLY, is qualified to do that, because He is the only one who has been tempted in all things like as we are, yet without sin. That's why God the Father turned the job over to Jesus. God has not been tempted. He CAN'T be tempted.
Love,
Steve
Well, when you are tempted with evil.....what should your response be? Now, things can come at you....but, you won't be tempted to DO them. Someone can offer you a bag of heroin....that is being tempted with an evil...clearly your response would not be to take it and run. Why? Because of who you are...right?
God is tempted all the time by man...the children in the wilderness for example...but, God can't be tempted because He is good....there is no bad in Him.....it doesn't mean people or Satan don't try.....Satan accuses people before God all the time. To tempt Him. Provoke Him.
Because God is Holy and perfect....He can't be tempted.....evil doesn't tempt Him....He as no sinful inclination. No desire for evil.
Well, when you are tempted with evil.....what should your response be? Now, things can come at you....but, you won't be tempted to DO them. Someone can offer you a bag of heroin....that is being tempted with an evil...clearly your response would not be to take it and run. Why? Because of who you are...right?
God is tempted all the time by man...the children in the wilderness for example...God can't be tempted because He is good....there is no bad in Him.....it doesn't mean people or Satan don't try.....Satan accuses people before God all the time. To tempt Him. Provoke Him.
Because God is Holy and perfect....He can't be tempted.....evil doesn't tempt Him....He as no sinful inclination. No desire for evil.
Did Jesus?
James 1:
"12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation [peirasmos 'trial', 'proof']: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
"13 Let no man say when he is tempted [peirazo 'to try'], I am tempted [peirazo] of God: for God cannot be tempted [apeirastos 'incapable of trial'] with evil, neither tempteth [peirazo] he any man:
"14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [epithumia 'over-desire'], and enticed [deleazo 'to catch by bait'].
"15 Then when lust [epithumia] hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
People are tempted when they allow their own over-desires to draw them beyond what God wants them to properly desire, and the adversary puts bait in front of them. If the people don't go for the bait, there is no sin. Sin is brought forth when the people go for the bait.
Hebrews 4:
"14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
"15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted [peirazo] like as we are, yet without sin.
"16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Jesus was indeed tempted in all things like as we are. He was occassionally drawn away of his own over-desire. He was yet without sin because He never rose to the bait.
Luke 22:
"15 And he [Jesus] said unto them [Jesus' disciples], With desire [epithumia 'over-desire'] I have desired [epithumeo 'to over-desire'] to eat this passover with you before I suffer:"
Jesus was indeed tempted in all things like as we are. He was occassionally drawn away of his own over-desire. He was yet without sin because He never rose to the bait.
Luke 22:
"15 And he [Jesus] said unto them [Jesus' disciples], With desire [epithumia 'over-desire'] I have desired [epithumeo 'to over-desire'] to eat this passover with you before I suffer:"
Love,
Steve
I wrote out a response, but I am deleting it...Jesus was occasionally drawn away with over desire....and you use the passover meal before He suffered as an example. As if somehow this could lead to a sin? Okay.
As long as you are not ascribing a motive to Jesus by reading a greek word, and as long as you are not reading into it at all. Couldn't be He earnestly or passionately desired...and if He did..this is bad?
It sure shoots the whole "I have come to do my fathers will" right out of the water.
What were His other sinful inclinations or over desires?
Which of you convicts me of sin....and no man dared answer Him
So, in other words....in answer to my question.....you think Jesus did have a sin nature.
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Tom
Not sure what you are saying here, Steve, when you say, "I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself." Unless all you mean is that it is not the
JeffSjo
I like it. Much better to be able to face it and deal. Much easier to keep it stuffed away out of sight. Much easier to write them off for the very same faults I myself have. Much easier to think
Gen-2
Since you cannot be PM'd Mark I'll leave this not here for you I'm not sure why you assumed I am one of those "unbiblical" "Rapture" people whom you seem to detest, or why you simply refused to respo
Tom
Just a few thoughts here. There is so much involved - like Gen, I don't have the time to go into all the details, not do I have the present ability. God knows I've read about these things in the Word & other places and thought about them off and on for years. Lately, especially, I've been working many of these things.
I still basically believe (with additions) what Wierwille - and others - have and do teach on the matter(s).
Briefly, again, like Gen, I have a problem with what to so with the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Promise of the Father, that came on the day of Pentecost - if every believer in all time gets the same thing. Through the One Spirit, Jesus Christ is the head over all things that have to do with the One Body. God wants us to know as a reality the His power that He put in Christ when he raised him from the dead. Through the One Baptism of the church of the One Body, we have access to that realithy through the One Spirit. This reality started at a point in time and continues to this present day. This is different, no? One NEW man?
I'm reading Global Warning by Tim LaHaye. He covers many of the things that have been brought up in this discussion & seems to do a fine job placing what's going on presently and what has been going on in relation to the scriptures. Some are possibilities. Others are quite certain, biblically. He separates them nicely. I'm not an expert, so I can't definitively recommend it, but, from my limited viewpoint, I do highly recommend it. It is very readable. It is quite an education.
Looking at Jesus, the author and finisher of believing who is still finishing his work in all of us.
Tom
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geisha779
The new ESV study bible says this about those saints who were raised...and it is important to remember(remind your friend next time this comes up :) )....that Matthew sometimes stays on topic....and is not necessarily chronologically arranged......
"saints who had fallen asleep. Probably pious OT figures and godly intertestamental Jews, reembodied to witness to the new order of things that was now in the process of dawning. This shows that the resurrection of people who died looking forward to the Messiah depends on Christ's actual death and resurrection, just as does the future resurrection of Jesus' disciples today. coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city. Matthew apparently jumps ahead here (treating materials topically, as he often does) and begins to speak of events that would happen after the resurrection. The wording suggests that these saints were not merely brought back to life (like Lazarus; John 11:44) but were "raised" (Matt. 27:52) with new, resurrection bodies, a foretaste of what would happen to all believers at Christ's return. No other historical information about this event has been found, but it is natural to suppose that if they had resurrection bodies, they would not have died again. They may have been taken up to heaven at or after Jesus' ascension......"
We just don't know a great deal about them. . . .our focus is not really drawn to that event....but, instead to who and what caused it to happen....so, it kind of begins and ends right there. We don't really know a lot about that part of what happened.
I was just playing with the reading of 1 Corinthians 15:23......One resurrection.....3 different timings.....Christ .....then the first fruits...those who believed in His coming (OT saints)Makes that verse about who those holy people were, at least fit......Next, we that are His at His return......and then the tribulation saints. It is still part of one resurrection of the Just...and it fits with the harvest analogy. I am not sold out to that......Just thinking out loud. :) You should hear me talk to myself!!
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geisha779
I wonder why it is necessary that all who will believe concludes before God can act? The gospel is to be preached every where....but, is there a understanding I am missing? During the tribulation period people believe. . . .I could be missing a point.
The gospel will still be heard after the saints are gathered, right? Even angels can preach the gospel?
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (take note TWI)
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
The time of tribulation where judgment is poured out is STILL a time for God's mercy.....people will still be brought to repentance. That is great mercy. They may die....but, Jesus has overcome death. What I don't quite understand is why we think God would spare us from the tribulation? He never has.
Just thinking out loud.
We are spared from the wrath to come......what wrath? God's final judgment? Or, the tribulation period which still reflects God's mercy?
Why would God spare one generation for 7 years?.....Remember, there are Christians suffering horrible persecution, tribulation, and martyrdom....right now. Christians under Nero were burned as garden lamps for his parties. Christians have never been spared tribulation.
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."
Simply things I am really beginning to wonder about.
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soul searcher
Let's take this a step at a time because this is a difficult subject for me and I get confused...
Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6, NIV).
Since Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Savior, how can they be saved? It seems to me that for that to happen Jesus would have to return to earth and make Himself known to the whole world. How else can all men be "without excuse"? (see Romans 1:20)
So...Is there salvation apart from Jesus? The way I read scripture less that 33% of the human race (those Christians who truly believe in Jesus and the resurrection) will make it to God's kingdom. It seems to me that God would have liked better than a 33% yield on the seeds of his creation, don'tcha think?
BTW I'm not judging anyone's beliefs here (I'm undecided myself). I'm just playing "devil's advocate" for the sake of discussion.
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Tom
Clarifation - I hope.
I think there is somewhere in the tribulation where it says that all who believe are killed. I think that is what Gen is talking about.
Also, in Romans where Paul is talking to gentiles in regard to the branches being grafted into the olive tree, he is not talking to gentile believers. Paul is saying that if the gentiles continue in unbelief, their opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree will end just like Israel's did because of unbelief. And if Israel believes, they will be grafted in again.
Pretty sure of that.
Of course, Paul is saying more than what I just said - just trying to clarify.
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cman
I'm sure the just and unjust is not talking about 2 groups of people.
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soul searcher
First thing is, please educate me...when is the "tribulation period" supposed to begin?
This topic is a little advanced for me. I haven't finished the NT yet (I haven't read Revelation) nor have I read Daniel, Isiah or the later prophets. So I can't really talk about this subject intelligently.
However, I'm still wondering about those holy people resurrected after Jesus (Mat 27:51-53). My NIV doesn't have a lot to say about it.
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Gen-2
well the point is - We don't know when. Jesus doesn't know when, Only the Father. ...could be today, tomorrow,... any day in the future.
The "...all who will believe concludes before God can act..." which you mention, isn't my idea, But I'll address it. When God acts, certain things will have concluded when He does. Think of it that way instead of in the reverse, with God as the cause.
The Jews between Pentecost and the return of Christ get saved in the same manner, My father was a Jew, born and raised. My mother was a Catholic, born and raised. They both got born again. They can both claim God as their Father. I didn't know anyone had a problem with this?
Amen to that cman! How this all goes down, is all up to God to sort out. While I will assume the Resurrection of the Just will resurrect "just", and the Resurrection of the Unjust will resurrect "unjust", it is God who will decide who is who - AND it does not rule out the possibility that He will do marvelous things never mentioned.
Personally - I see many times, in the bible, that people "get up" and not all of them have the same disposition (they don't all go to the same place or do the same thing). What I believe doesn't exactly line up with VPW or with this Gathering/Resurrection thing (although it has it merits, it has a lot of bumps in its road, as is).
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soul searcher
Your father is saved because he converted to Christianity. But what about all the other Jews who haven't converted?
Having lived in NY all my life I know many, many Jewish people. Heck, I have neices, nephews and in-laws who are Jewish. I don't evaluate or judge their religion. It's not in me to do that.
And I don't talk about personal salvation with them. I'm not here to convert them, nor are they here to convert me. We honor and respect each other's religions and holidays.
Will they make it to God's kingdom according to Jesus? I'm certain they will, but then what do I know?
I had this discussion with some Calvinists in another forum. They seem to be very rigid in their thinking...it's the Jesus-way or no-way.
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Gen-2
My father told me this, soul-searcher. "To be honest, most Jews today do the law so poorly that they have little hope of achieving their salvation, unless God is willing to overlook or forgive the larger entirety of their lives." That's a note in his bible. If you discount the new testament, the Jews stand a better chance? ...maybe, maybe not. I guess it does depend on whether or not Christ is the Messiah. Most Jews (and I know a lot of them) rarely think about the messiah. Some (many) believe that it is a matter of little consequence in their lives.
So there you have it. If Christ was/is the messiah, then yeah, they've got some major problems in having Rejected God's Messiah. If he's not the Messiah, we all have major problems.... Hope that answers your Q!
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Steve Lortz
I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself. I think salvation is the Spirit of resurrection life promised in Ezekiel 37:14 that will be poured out when the Lord appears. I think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is the earnest of our inheritance (the Spirit of resurrection life) until the redemption of the purchased possession (in the age to come) according to Ephesians 1:14.
Receiving the gift of the holy Spirit is conditional upon confessing the Lord Jesus (however a person words it) and believing that God raised Him from the Dead. I think the master/servant relation a person enters into when he or she confesses the Lord Jesus is permanent. I don't think a person can "lose their salvation", but I think there are painful consequences, at least in the short term, for people who turn their backs on their Master.
I think that Jesus Christ Himself is going to be the judge of every single one of us, and His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy. I no longer try to put His judgment into my very little box. I can't judge other peoples' hearts. I am decieved by my own.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Things get much clearer when we read what's actually written in Romans 11:13-25, rather than simply go on Wierwille's unsupported word. The whole book of Romans addresses a rift that had arisen in that city between the believers of Jewish background and the believers of Gentile background. All of the Jews and all of the Gentiles addressed in the book of Romans are among "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Romans 1:7).
The Gentiles of Romans 11:13 are already Christians, because Paul calls them "brethren" in 11:25, a term he didn't throw around lightly. He also writes in verse 20 that these Gentiles "stand by faith".
The branches broken off were those of Israel who chose not to believe. The branches that were NOT broken off are the believing remnant of Israel, and Paul uses himself as an example of such in Romans 11:1. The branches that were grafted in are Gentiles who also chose to believe.
Believe what? The promises God originally made to Israel that found fulfillment, both punishment and reward, in Jesus Christ.
The root of the tree are the promises God made to Israel. Gentile believers are not to boast against Jewish believers because the promises God made to Israel support the Gentile believers in Christ, not the other way around.
The Church consists of the believing remnant of Israel under the New Testament promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, with believing Gentiles grafted in on the same basis as believing Israel, by grace through faith. The believing remnant in the Gospels, the Bride of Christ, has become the Body of Christ after Pentecost, through the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24.
Darby, Bullinger, Scofield and Wierwille read foreign meanings into what was written, specifically, they misinterpreted oikonomia to mean "a period of time", in order to teach that the Chuerch is a "wholly new thing", completely separate and discontinuous from Israel.
Love,
Steve
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JeffSjo
I did a look at the word my Young's concordance transliterates as OIKONOMIA this weekend for a bit. It was translated as "dispensation" four times and also as "stewardship" thrice in the King James version......
Luke 16: (NKJV from here on out in this post)
1 He also said to His disciples: “There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods.
2 So he called him and said to him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your "STEWARDSHIP", for you can no longer be steward.’
3 “Then the steward said within himself, ‘What shall I do? For my master is taking the "STEWARDSHIP" away from me. I cannot dig; I am ashamed to beg.
4 I have resolved what to do, that when I am put out of the "STEWARDSHIP", they may receive me into their houses.Â’
For me it seems plain that "stewardship" involves being given responsibilities within a household and being accountable to the owner too.
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1 Co 9:
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!
17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a "STEWARDSHIP".
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
This section makes it plain to me that Paul was a servant in the Lord's house and had reponsibilities.
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Eph 3:
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the "DISPENSATION" of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
As before, I see plainly that Paul's responsibility was to bring the gentiles into the fold, but as I said before I believe the promises were there for Israel already. The secret part was that us gentiles would be "fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers..." Any more than that I believe is unwise considerations, even leading to a brand new hope that I don't believe is actually stated in the scriptures.
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Col 1:
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the "STEWARDSHIP" from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
IMO try as one might to make OIKONOMIA refer to a period of time, it simply refers to responsibility within the Lord's house, plain and simple. :)
Eph 1:
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the "DISPENSATION" of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Going along with what Steve posted earlier about this usage of "gather together" it seems that the Lord's job (responsibility, stewardship) is to head up everything. Heavenly Jerusalem, believers still on the earth, and all the rest. But here it says "IN ONE", not seperate hopes.
My best explanation for penacost is still what Pater said on that day.....
Acts 2: (comments in this color)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: (Wierwille said This is LIKE that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.... That's because he was wrong about his so called "dispensation."
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.Â’
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
25 For David says concerning Him:
‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.Â’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘ The LORD said to my Lord,
“ Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Yes, we gentiles have been blessed and brought into the fold through the events that initiated on the day of pentacost according as the scriptures and also our own Lord's words (also scripture I guess) record. But God did not make our time period a secret, just that the gentiles would become fellowheirs, of one body with them.
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Steve Lortz
In order to separate the Church completely from Israel, Darby had to insert a "parenthetical" period of time into "God's plan for the ages". Darby chose Pentecost as the time for opening the parenthesis, and invented a "pre-tribulation rapture" of the Church to close it.
But Pentecost was not the beginning of a "wholly new thing". It was a well established and understood festival in the Jewish annual cycle.
Two Old Testament passages set the understanding of Pentecost, Leviticus 23:15-21 and Deuteronomy 16:9-11. Here is the passage from Deuteronomy 16,
"9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
"10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thy hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
"11 And thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the Lord hath chosen to place his name there.
The feast of Pentecost was the freewill thank offering of the firstfruit of the wheat harvest. The wheat harvest is often used as a symbol for the resurrection.
On the day of Pentecost recorded in Acts chapter 2, Jesus Christ, as the High Priest of the New Testament, offered Himself, as firstfruit of the resurrection, to God as a freewill thank offering. God accepted Jesus' sacrifice, exalted Him to the position of Lord of glory, gave Him the promised gift of holy Spirit, and Jesus in turn poured that Spirit out onto whosoever should call on the name of the Lord.
The recipients of the gift then gave back to God of that which with which they had been blessed, magnifying God with perfect prayer and praise, speaking in the Spirit.
And despite Wierwille's protestation that Peter meant "This is LIKE that which was spoken by the prophet Joel", Wierwille was dead wrong. It WAS that which was spoken by the prophet Joel!
Glory! Halleluyah! Praise God! Amen!
Love,
Steve
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Tom
Not sure what you are saying here, Steve, when you say, "I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself." Unless all you mean is that it is not the whole enchilada.
We have the spirit of a sound mind - there's wholeness in that. Via the One Spirit, we are members in particular in the One Body of Christ who IS the resurrection and the life. He is presently glorified and presently filling us up with the stuff of glory. That's salvation wholeness.
Sure we are saved to & by the Hope. But likewise, the Spirit also helps us (Rom. 24-26). "Likewise?" Like what wise? Like the Hope will make us whole, so the Spirit makes us whole now. As far as I can see, the word likewise can mean:
1. in a similar manner
2. partly in the same manner while partly in a different manner
3. entirely in the same way because it IS the same way
Also, as far as I can see it, Romans is using the 3rd sense of "likewise." I think the whole of the rest of Rom. 8 swings on this word "likewise." The Spirit is the reality of the Hope of Glory - the glorified Christ - changing us now to be like him (as Rom. 8:28-30 goes on to say). Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, is just not finished with the work yet, but it is the same work.
Also Steve, I sense a tone of heavy judgment on yourself by yourself. Perhaps I'm wrong, but RE: "His judgment will be justice tempered with mercy." I would say rather than mercy tempering justice, mercy rejoices against justice, brother. Psalms 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
You know the truth of your deceitful heart better than anyone, & Lord knows I know mine, but God is greater than our hearts. I believe, to our amazement, if we could see ourselves through God's eyes instead of our own, we would see him holding us in the palms of his hands calling us faithful because he sees the continual yearning in our hearts to know him. And we would cry and be unburdened (or maybe burdened with the burden of Christ which is light:))
Well, we CAN know THAT much about our loving heavenly Father
Bless you brother,
Tom
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cman
a little box
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JeffSjo
I think the bible teaches us to judge too Steve, Paul did seem to spend some time working with the Corinthians concerning good judgement, right?
When I read your statement about judgement as pertaining to His and yours I couldn't help but wonder what the specific lessons were for you. I like it when we learn the easy way, but it seems to not happen like that for me all the time either. :B)
Romans 2 (NIV)
God's Righteous Judgment
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares
________________________________
The thing about all this for me is that I don't expect to know other people, their cultures, or their secrets. But I do expect that God will and does, and I expect Him to get it right for everybody. I have no time for a preacher who expects God to condemn everybody but US (Whoever "US" is) because my bible doesn't say He will condemn them, it says He will judge them.
Both Jew, and Gentile will be judged according to their works, consciences, and secrets. And it's not my job to guess how God will judge them, but I do expect it to be just when HE HIMSELF judges His judgement...Ghandi?, I don't know.... Sadat?, I don't know!...Saladin?, I don't know!...David Ben Gurion?, I don't know!
But as with what Paul was seemingly trying to show the Corinthians there is a good place for judgement too in this life.....
1 Corinthians 6:
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
I just looked at the word "judge" in the epistles...lots of places, lots of things we are apparently supposed to learn to judge.
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Steve Lortz
Thank you for your kind encouragement, Tom!
Yeah... what you said about the enchilada. Except, not only do I not think we have the whole enchilada yet, it's more like we can only smell it right now. Salvation is a lot bigger than Wierwille taught.
I John 3:1-3
"1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world [cosmos] knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
"2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
Wierwille didn't purify himself. His hope of salvation must have been defective. I think Wierwille's own over-inflated sense of self-importance left little room in his heart for the magnitude of the salvation that Christ wrought. The purpose of thinking that is not to condemn Wierwille, but to remind myself not to over-inflate my own sense of self-importance.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Good stuff, Jeff!
When I was looking at uses of "judgment" in the epistles, I was struck by Phillipians 1:9, "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;"
The use of the preposition "in" of this verse is instrumental, that is to say, love increasingly overflows by the instruments of knowledge and all judgment. The word translated "judgment" is aisthesis, which is the Greek word we get "aesthetics" from. Aistheterion, a cognate of aisthesis, also occurs in Hebrews 5,
"14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses [aistheteria] exercised to discern both good and evil."
I think "judgment" can be viewed as the mental activity of comparing two or more pieces of knowledge and concluding how they are related. I think God designed our minds to do this, and gave us His Word so that we could tell the difference between things that are right and things that are wrong. I think exercising judgment is a key element in walking by the Spirit, which enables our love to overflow yet more and more.
However, I know I am not qualified to judge any person, not even myself, in the sense of justifying or condemning that person. Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ ONLY, is qualified to do that, because He is the only one who has been tempted in all things like as we are, yet without sin. That's why God the Father turned the job over to Jesus. God has not been tempted. He CAN'T be tempted.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Yes, but doesn't the first part of Romans do a pretty good job in laying out the case that all men are sinners? Wouldn't that condemn us already? No one seeks God? That is a judgment and a sentence passed already.....Romans is....Righteousness denied....Righteousness supplied...and Righteousness applied.
Now, I may be reading you wrong.....but, there is no other righteousness than what God Himself supplies....right? And that is through the atoning work of Christ? This also includes our righteous deeds.(Filthy rags) We are condemned already...we are under the condemnation of sin. That is where righteousness supplied comes in.
When Paul is speaking of God judging according to works.....do you think that means whether someone merits salvation according to their works? Or am I confused? I don't want to jump to conclusions.
Or are you saying....works which come from obedience....which comes from genuine faith....given by God, that will be judged?
--------------------------------------
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Steve Lortz
I'm afraid my weakness for hyperbole clouded my judgment when I wrote the paragraph above. It's God who does the judging. But He does it through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our advocate. His endurance of temptation without giving in to sin is what qualifies Jesus to be our advocate with God. My bad...
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Well, when you are tempted with evil.....what should your response be? Now, things can come at you....but, you won't be tempted to DO them. Someone can offer you a bag of heroin....that is being tempted with an evil...clearly your response would not be to take it and run. Why? Because of who you are...right?
God is tempted all the time by man...the children in the wilderness for example...but, God can't be tempted because He is good....there is no bad in Him.....it doesn't mean people or Satan don't try.....Satan accuses people before God all the time. To tempt Him. Provoke Him.
Because God is Holy and perfect....He can't be tempted.....evil doesn't tempt Him....He as no sinful inclination. No desire for evil.
Did Jesus?
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Steve Lortz
James 1:
"12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation [peirasmos 'trial', 'proof']: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
"13 Let no man say when he is tempted [peirazo 'to try'], I am tempted [peirazo] of God: for God cannot be tempted [apeirastos 'incapable of trial'] with evil, neither tempteth [peirazo] he any man:
"14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [epithumia 'over-desire'], and enticed [deleazo 'to catch by bait'].
"15 Then when lust [epithumia] hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
People are tempted when they allow their own over-desires to draw them beyond what God wants them to properly desire, and the adversary puts bait in front of them. If the people don't go for the bait, there is no sin. Sin is brought forth when the people go for the bait.
Hebrews 4:
"14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
"15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted [peirazo] like as we are, yet without sin.
"16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Jesus was indeed tempted in all things like as we are. He was occassionally drawn away of his own over-desire. He was yet without sin because He never rose to the bait.
Luke 22:
"15 And he [Jesus] said unto them [Jesus' disciples], With desire [epithumia 'over-desire'] I have desired [epithumeo 'to over-desire'] to eat this passover with you before I suffer:"
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
I wrote out a response, but I am deleting it...Jesus was occasionally drawn away with over desire....and you use the passover meal before He suffered as an example. As if somehow this could lead to a sin? Okay.
As long as you are not ascribing a motive to Jesus by reading a greek word, and as long as you are not reading into it at all. Couldn't be He earnestly or passionately desired...and if He did..this is bad?
It sure shoots the whole "I have come to do my fathers will" right out of the water.
What were His other sinful inclinations or over desires?
Which of you convicts me of sin....and no man dared answer Him
So, in other words....in answer to my question.....you think Jesus did have a sin nature.
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