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Tartans and other things Scottish


Kit Sober
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I had a dear friend (now deceased), maiden name Lucy Williams, who was interested in Scottish things such as tartans and the Scottish festivals held in San Jose, CA, which she and her husband attended.

I know that the tartans are some of the prettiest materials out of which to have stuff made (clothes and blankets I have had).

I recently learned that two of my favorite skirts, black/grey/white plaids) were "mourning tartans."

Anyone else interested in these things currently? (Or is this from too long ago?)

What's the relationship between Irish and Scottish? (They appear to be so close yet so separate.)

Thanks.

Edited by Kit Sober
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The city I currently reside in was founded by Scottish settlers. The city hosts a Tartan Day Festival every year. Aside from that, though, I honestly don't know much about it.

Edited by waysider
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Im of Scotch-Irish ancestry so Ive picked up a few things out of general interest over the years.

Tartans are almost like a form of heraldry, if you know how to 'read' them they almost all mean something or another. Although people these days use them lightly--many of them are for specific purposes or represent certain people

My families clan has a specific set of colors and design that identify as a member of their clan, there are others for various purposes-I think there is some official registry somehwere online that you can probably google......

I have no idea what the relationship is now between the Irish and the Scots but Ive read some interesting books on the history of the subject with most of the focus on the time of my ancestors that came here (early 1700's)

There apparently was a pretty good three way power struggle for a good long time between England, Ireland and Scotland with usually 2 of the 3 aligned against the other one. It switched back and forth who was with who. It didnt help that they were three sepearte religions: England-Anglican, Ireland-Catholic and Scotland -Presbyterian.

I know my ancestors moved from Scotland to Ireland after England had warred with Ireland and then offered homesteading land in Ireland to poor Scots to provide a buffer to keep the Irish from regrouping against England.

My ancestors stayed in Ireland about a generation, realized they were being used by the English and came to the new world.

So ---in a word----Its complicated! and interesting too.

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hi kit. have never heard of an irish family tartan/plaid

on my scottish side, ours is the fraser plaid. i can't remember how to post a picture or i would

my cousin wore the fraser plaid kilt when he got married and our family has many items of clothing and such in the fraser family plaid

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What's the relationship between Irish and Scottish? (They appear to be so close yet so separate.)

You asked about this, Kit. And you're right - so close but so different, individual.

Both are considered Celtic in origin - Celts being a sort of tribal group that got pushed (or migrated voluntarily) westward until they reached the western edges of Europe. Then later tribes have stranded the Celts at the extremes of western Europe, into a few remaining areas comprising (mostly highland) Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall (extreme SW of England) and Brittany (extreme NW of France).

All of the western seaboard of Europe has since time (or at least boats) began been subject to invasion and counter-invasion from different tribal groups. Scotland was invaded from Scandinavia (think, Vikings); England - the very name is derived from Anglo-Saxon - Angles and Saxons being from different areas of what is now Germany; and so on.

The Celtic tribes gradually got pushed west until there was no further to go. Remnant cultures have remained and Gaelic (think Gaul, now France) is still spoken in France, Ireland and Scotland. Welsh is a variant Celtic language spoken in Wales. There has been a strong nationalistic tendency there and it is difficult to progress in council/administrative or teaching type professions unless one is bilingual in Welsh and English. Road signs are bilingual. Scotland has not got quite that radical - yet. Ireland has been divided on religious grounds but southern Ireland (Eire) has its own separate (Gaelic) language.

I don't know how interchangeable the Gaelic languages are from these remnant cultures from Scotland to France. I think they are mutually comprehensible. It might be rather like Brit English underlying American English but both have acquired different accents and use words a little differently so they have different meanings.

Language is only a way of representing shared culture and it's not surprising that there are a lot of common features among Celtic tribes. Scottish and Irish kilts are different, adapting to local needs; they have similar but different dancing styles, etc etc. In more recent history Scotland and Ireland have aided each other against the common enemy, England, in part because of common religious ties (Catholicism v Protestants/Anglicans) which may overlie ancient tribal differences.

How far back do you want to go? Could be one of those "endless genealogies," LOL. Who knows who was pushed out by the Celts - and what parts of those cultures became assimilated into Celtish culture?

There is no part of European culture that you could really call "pure" as there has been so much cross-culture and fertilisation of ideas (and people, heh heh) that has made all of Europe so richly varied in its background. The long view shows our current "national identities" to be continually changing.

Anyway, in case you're interested: Celts

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You asked about this, Kit. And you're right - so close but so different, individual.

Both are considered Celtic in origin - Celts being a sort of tribal group that got pushed (or migrated voluntarily) westward until they reached the western edges of Europe. Then later tribes have stranded the Celts at the extremes of western Europe, into a few remaining areas comprising (mostly highland) Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall (extreme SW of England) and Brittany (extreme NW of France).

All of the western seaboard of Europe has since time (or at least boats) began been subject to invasion and counter-invasion from different tribal groups. Scotland was invaded from Scandinavia (think, Vikings); England - the very name is derived from Anglo-Saxon - Angles and Saxons being from different areas of what is now Germany; and so on.

The Celtic tribes gradually got pushed west until there was no further to go. Remnant cultures have remained and Gaelic (think Gaul, now France) is still spoken in France, Ireland and Scotland. Welsh is a variant Celtic language spoken in Wales. There has been a strong nationalistic tendency there and it is difficult to progress in council/administrative or teaching type professions unless one is bilingual in Welsh and English. Road signs are bilingual. Scotland has not got quite that radical - yet. Ireland has been divided on religious grounds but southern Ireland (Eire) has its own separate (Gaelic) language.

I don't know how interchangeable the Gaelic languages are from these remnant cultures from Scotland to France. I think they are mutually comprehensible. It might be rather like Brit English underlying American English but both have acquired different accents and use words a little differently so they have different meanings.

Scots Gaelic is close to Irish Gaelic and Manx; Welsh, Cornish and Breton are a different branch. The Irish used to be called the Scotii by the Romans (probably from an earlier word, see "Scotia") and the word Scotland came from that (there was also a kingdom in Scotland at one point that belonged to an Irish kingdom). In the Republic of Ireland there are still areas and, outside of those, individual households and schools where Irish is the first language, but everybody has to study it from when they start school at four or five. This puts some pepople off it. In Northern ireland learning it is voluntary but there is quite a bit of enthusiasm for it, especially among adults, as far as I know (not getting into the religious/civil rights issues that are so hard to explain).

Some of the differences between Irish and Scottish cultures are to do with when the Anglicisation happened, eg, as far as I know, why there aren't Scottish "O" names (from the word for heir). Both Mc and Mac are found in both countries - each is from "mac" which means son. And then Scotland also had the Picts and later had different relationships with the continental europeans.

There were Celts all over Europe and in Turkey (Galatia). In the old stories, the Celts who came to Ireland came up from Spain (the Milesians), and originally from the middle east, and recently, I think, they found a strong genetic connection between the Irish and the Basques.

Excathedra, did you ever read a book called "How the Irish Saved Civilization"? Brilliant :)

Well maybe not really brilliant, but an easy read (if you didn't already know it)!

Edited by cara
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