"Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual."
Sounds all too familiar. Kind of like, "now, you gotta be nice. Forget about the rape, the stealing, the etc. , etc. and give the poor guy another chance".
There may be a different extreme- constantly reminding folks of all the little piddly mistakes, trying to put someone down in order to climb over them, etc. That's kind of devilish.
But on the other hand.. I would be an unfaithful watchman to allow somebody to unknowingly walk blindly into "the lions den" without warning. Nothing has changed there, but only for the worse since I left.
Things like: leadership telling their flock, or at least some, the most appropriate thing would be to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one would hear and beat the he** out of him.
Telling the wife to divorce her husband because he was "possessed" (i.e., did not agree fully with the ministry doctrine).
Talk about words that cut, words that kill. Words that stir up strife. Between husband and wife, even whole families. Best friends.
Those kind of words must be marked and remembered, and repeated. "Mad dog is loose, watch out".
Maybe you haven't seen it. It took Martindale quite a few years to get that kind of degredation to be readily apparent in my area. Before, they only thought these kind of suggestions. Shortly before I left, these were often COMMANDMENTS. I heard enough to straighten out my hair.
Shortcomings are one thing- I have enough to fill a dumpster.
Downright pure sin and evil on the other hand- deserves a little scrutiny.
mdvaden........just to clarify a bit, you are intermixing two different classifications here:
No, I'm not mixing. It's likely you read my posted replies, and if you did, you will be aware I know there are two separate aspects and ideas here.
It's not like any one person on the forum has an exclusive right to discuss multiple issues.
So what you said is nothing new to me.
Is it new to you? Did your read all my posts in this thread intirely. If so, then it should not be news that I made a distinction between a set of keys to walking by the spirit and the quality of a believer that would walk by the spirit.
It still changes little. It's a rare day an individual is walking by the spirit when violating the qualities I mentioned or others of that nature.
I think what we're seeing here is a classic TWI technique of changing the subject so as to avoid answering any questions or continuing any discussions that may cause discomfort. Sartori, correct me if I'm wrong. ;)--> OR, it could be that there is no standard TWI rhetoric with which to reply. Maybe we'll hear a more direct comment once MDVaden has been to fellowship and gotten the proper response to post on here....IF he is allowed to continue posting on here.
I've noticed that our Family Tables friend is no longer posting. :(-->
For what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts.
I think they should have left the PFAL series as the one class it was originally designed to be.
It was holy spirit for heaven's sake; it was SUPPOSED to be powerful.
The idea that it had to be dumbed down because people couldn't handle the whole thing is bull. I think that idea is partially a result of another bulldinky idea that somehow Dr. Wierwille was the only one in the whole world able to teach the thing, so therefore it had to be put into a taped format to keep up with the growth. He couldn't accomplish on tape what he could in person - that's why it had to be spread out into three classes.
Others could have and should have taught it powerfully as time went on. Not to do that was a quenching of the spirit and a centralization and a leavening.
I think the 16 keys to walking by the spirit ARE common sense - for the most part; although, I dont think some of the keys are even backed up by the scripture references given for them. For example "Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation." is hard to accept for people who received revelation before they spoke in tongues or without speaking in tongues daily, and the reference IICor. 4:16 is pretty loose documentation for that key. I believe there is an amazingly close and positive correlation between speaking in tongues and a lively life int he spirit in all regards & Dr. Wierwille was trying to teach that, but "prerequisite?" Nah, limits God. I hesitate to call it leaven because speaking in tongues is so intrinsic to the life in the spirit, but I remember people speaking in tongues for days on end and wondering why they weren't getting all this revelation in large part as a result of this little bit of leavening. The same person who taught that key said that these 16 weren't all the keys - as someone else on this thread pointed out, that same VP also said that one of the keys was never to let yourself get put into a dogmatic box because then the spirit of God can't work, so...
Be that as it may, the people I knew who were the most adept at walking by the spirit really had the advanced class down - the definitions, principles, keys. But a lot of that stuff we shared with each other in NY as we were learning that stuff before we ever took the advanced class.
It was common sense to walking by the spirit, but not so common because walking by the spirit wasn't so common. If a friend told me I was going to get a ticket because I was going too fast and there was a cop around, I might slow down. But when God told me the same thing, I started yelling at him, asking him why he didn't warn me instead of telling me I was going to get a ticket - until I learned the "common sense" of the thing that he WAS warning me and all I had to do was slow down & I woudln't have gotten that ticket.
See? The keys taught me how God talks to me. Invaluable. I love them.
I think it is a lot like someone who takes martial arts. Bruce Lee said that before he started to learn the classic moves, a punch was a punch & a kick was a kick. But as he was trying to learn the classics, his sense of a punch and a kick was lost in the details. But after the moves became natural, again, a kick was a kick and a punch was a punch - only now he was doing it much more effectively.
I don't think I ever screwed up on the "revelation given once can change" thing again quite so badly after that ticket.
And the key about revelation given twice is established - God used that one in just an exquisite fashion to get me out of a ministry turned out of control machine known as TWI - without regret.
Could intro to the walk in the spirit have been done better? Yes. Were the deficiencies part of the leavening? I think so - many of them at least.
Hey, it was what it was.
God still wants people to walk with him. And we still can. That's a very good thing.
For what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts.
I think they should have left the PFAL series as the one class it was originally designed to be.
Well.....if we are talking "originally designed".....I'd have much preferred B.G. Leonard's class on receiving holy spirit and then, given a suggested reading list of books like JE Stiles' and EW Bullinger's works.
As wierwille centralized twi....and moved further from its origins of Leonard, Stiles, and Bullinger....the leavening process continued.
The corps program had 5 corps objectives:
1) Acquire an indepth spiritual perception and awareness.
2) Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.
3) Physical......making your body the vehicle of commmunication....
4) Practice believing ......(financial abundance to you & ministry)
5) Go forth as leaders...... (and go where twi sends you!)
These five corps objectives were ideas and concepts of wierwille. Seemingly harmless at first..... these objectives are leavened with ONE DOMINANT INGREDIENT......CENTRALIZATION OF POWER.
How do you acquire???........you listen to wierwille !!
How to you receive???........you submit to wierwille !!
How to be vital???...........you go in the corps!!!
How to practice believing....you follow the teachings!!!
How to go forth???...........you go where twi sends you !!!
If you start a long journey ....and from the onset, you're off say 2 degrees.....the LONGER YOU JOURNEY.....THE FARTHER OFF COURSE YOU'LL END UP.
I got into twi in '72, and at that time what later became the Intermediate class was "TIP" (Tongues, Interpretation & Prophecy). It was very short and, if I remember correctly, pretty low key. I know for a fact that it didn't include all Earl BXrton's claptrap about the lengths of the tongue and interpretation matching and all those other rules and regulations.
Earl's revision of that class ruined it, as far as I was concerned. Maybe it wasn't his fault. Maybe he was just doing VP's bidding, but it sucked. People I knew who were comfortable with the manifestations for many years were suddenly put into fear over whether they were doing it "right."
I don't know how long before '72 the Intermediate part of the class was still in PFAL. I never heard that it was, but it very well could have been in the really early years.
The things I do remember that were removed from PFAL were "The Day Jesus Christ Died" (which I think was still in when I first took the class) and "The Unforgiveable Sin," which I don't think was still in but was shown separately shortly after the class ended.
Earl's revision of that class ruined it, as far as I was concerned. Maybe it wasn't his fault. Maybe he was just doing VP's bidding, but it sucked. People I knew who were comfortable with the manifestations for many years were suddenly put into fear over whether they were doing it "right."
Linda.....yeah, revision after revision! :)-->
What year was Earl's class, anyways? 1980? ...1982?...or thereabouts? And, it did set off lots of questions and concerns about "doing it right." Which again raises OTHER QUESTIONS about this whole area of interpretation of tongues & prophecy in a believers meeting for exhortation and comfort.
Could it be that there were different versions of "right doctrine" amongst wierwille's top leaders....like Earl, Craig, Vince, Johnnie, JAL, & Cgeer? Why was Earl selected? Anybody know?
After 1989 (and Earl Bxrtxn had left twi).....the old tapes of vpw were reintroduced until WAP swallowed up the old wineskins.
Earl's class came out in '82 or '83. I know it wasn't before '82, because I worked on the syllabus in Way Pub my first year on staff, which started 8/82.
I never heard why he was chosen to teach it. I do know he didn't much like having his syllabus edited for grammar and clarity.
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Ham
"Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual."
Sounds all too familiar. Kind of like, "now, you gotta be nice. Forget about the rape, the stealing, the etc. , etc. and give the poor guy another chance".
There may be a different extreme- constantly reminding folks of all the little piddly mistakes, trying to put someone down in order to climb over them, etc. That's kind of devilish.
But on the other hand.. I would be an unfaithful watchman to allow somebody to unknowingly walk blindly into "the lions den" without warning. Nothing has changed there, but only for the worse since I left.
Things like: leadership telling their flock, or at least some, the most appropriate thing would be to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one would hear and beat the he** out of him.
Telling the wife to divorce her husband because he was "possessed" (i.e., did not agree fully with the ministry doctrine).
Talk about words that cut, words that kill. Words that stir up strife. Between husband and wife, even whole families. Best friends.
Those kind of words must be marked and remembered, and repeated. "Mad dog is loose, watch out".
Maybe you haven't seen it. It took Martindale quite a few years to get that kind of degredation to be readily apparent in my area. Before, they only thought these kind of suggestions. Shortly before I left, these were often COMMANDMENTS. I heard enough to straighten out my hair.
Shortcomings are one thing- I have enough to fill a dumpster.
Downright pure sin and evil on the other hand- deserves a little scrutiny.
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mdvaden
No, I'm not mixing. It's likely you read my posted replies, and if you did, you will be aware I know there are two separate aspects and ideas here.
It's not like any one person on the forum has an exclusive right to discuss multiple issues.
So what you said is nothing new to me.
Is it new to you? Did your read all my posts in this thread intirely. If so, then it should not be news that I made a distinction between a set of keys to walking by the spirit and the quality of a believer that would walk by the spirit.
It still changes little. It's a rare day an individual is walking by the spirit when violating the qualities I mentioned or others of that nature.
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skyrider
Looks like lindyhopper's post...that immediately followed your post mdvaden.... made an attempt to clarify this as well.
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Belle
I think what we're seeing here is a classic TWI technique of changing the subject so as to avoid answering any questions or continuing any discussions that may cause discomfort. Sartori, correct me if I'm wrong.
;)--> OR, it could be that there is no standard TWI rhetoric with which to reply. Maybe we'll hear a more direct comment once MDVaden has been to fellowship and gotten the proper response to post on here....IF he is allowed to continue posting on here.
I've noticed that our Family Tables friend is no longer posting.
:(-->
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Belle
MDVaden, since you did try to change the subject and focus of the discussion, I'm ever so curious to hear what you think of my reply to your post.
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Tom
For what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts.
I think they should have left the PFAL series as the one class it was originally designed to be.
It was holy spirit for heaven's sake; it was SUPPOSED to be powerful.
The idea that it had to be dumbed down because people couldn't handle the whole thing is bull. I think that idea is partially a result of another bulldinky idea that somehow Dr. Wierwille was the only one in the whole world able to teach the thing, so therefore it had to be put into a taped format to keep up with the growth. He couldn't accomplish on tape what he could in person - that's why it had to be spread out into three classes.
Others could have and should have taught it powerfully as time went on. Not to do that was a quenching of the spirit and a centralization and a leavening.
I think the 16 keys to walking by the spirit ARE common sense - for the most part; although, I dont think some of the keys are even backed up by the scripture references given for them. For example "Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation." is hard to accept for people who received revelation before they spoke in tongues or without speaking in tongues daily, and the reference IICor. 4:16 is pretty loose documentation for that key. I believe there is an amazingly close and positive correlation between speaking in tongues and a lively life int he spirit in all regards & Dr. Wierwille was trying to teach that, but "prerequisite?" Nah, limits God. I hesitate to call it leaven because speaking in tongues is so intrinsic to the life in the spirit, but I remember people speaking in tongues for days on end and wondering why they weren't getting all this revelation in large part as a result of this little bit of leavening. The same person who taught that key said that these 16 weren't all the keys - as someone else on this thread pointed out, that same VP also said that one of the keys was never to let yourself get put into a dogmatic box because then the spirit of God can't work, so...
Be that as it may, the people I knew who were the most adept at walking by the spirit really had the advanced class down - the definitions, principles, keys. But a lot of that stuff we shared with each other in NY as we were learning that stuff before we ever took the advanced class.
It was common sense to walking by the spirit, but not so common because walking by the spirit wasn't so common. If a friend told me I was going to get a ticket because I was going too fast and there was a cop around, I might slow down. But when God told me the same thing, I started yelling at him, asking him why he didn't warn me instead of telling me I was going to get a ticket - until I learned the "common sense" of the thing that he WAS warning me and all I had to do was slow down & I woudln't have gotten that ticket.
See? The keys taught me how God talks to me. Invaluable. I love them.
I think it is a lot like someone who takes martial arts. Bruce Lee said that before he started to learn the classic moves, a punch was a punch & a kick was a kick. But as he was trying to learn the classics, his sense of a punch and a kick was lost in the details. But after the moves became natural, again, a kick was a kick and a punch was a punch - only now he was doing it much more effectively.
I don't think I ever screwed up on the "revelation given once can change" thing again quite so badly after that ticket.
And the key about revelation given twice is established - God used that one in just an exquisite fashion to get me out of a ministry turned out of control machine known as TWI - without regret.
Could intro to the walk in the spirit have been done better? Yes. Were the deficiencies part of the leavening? I think so - many of them at least.
Hey, it was what it was.
God still wants people to walk with him. And we still can. That's a very good thing.
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skyrider
Well.....if we are talking "originally designed".....I'd have much preferred B.G. Leonard's class on receiving holy spirit and then, given a suggested reading list of books like JE Stiles' and EW Bullinger's works.
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Tom
Good point, skyrider; I'm in complete agreement.
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skyrider
As wierwille centralized twi....and moved further from its origins of Leonard, Stiles, and Bullinger....the leavening process continued.
The corps program had 5 corps objectives:
1) Acquire an indepth spiritual perception and awareness.
2) Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.
3) Physical......making your body the vehicle of commmunication....
4) Practice believing ......(financial abundance to you & ministry)
5) Go forth as leaders...... (and go where twi sends you!)
These five corps objectives were ideas and concepts of wierwille. Seemingly harmless at first..... these objectives are leavened with ONE DOMINANT INGREDIENT......CENTRALIZATION OF POWER.
How do you acquire???........you listen to wierwille !!
How to you receive???........you submit to wierwille !!
How to be vital???...........you go in the corps!!!
How to practice believing....you follow the teachings!!!
How to go forth???...........you go where twi sends you !!!
If you start a long journey ....and from the onset, you're off say 2 degrees.....the LONGER YOU JOURNEY.....THE FARTHER OFF COURSE YOU'LL END UP.
It's a mathmatical law.
:)-->
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Linda Z
I got into twi in '72, and at that time what later became the Intermediate class was "TIP" (Tongues, Interpretation & Prophecy). It was very short and, if I remember correctly, pretty low key. I know for a fact that it didn't include all Earl BXrton's claptrap about the lengths of the tongue and interpretation matching and all those other rules and regulations.
Earl's revision of that class ruined it, as far as I was concerned. Maybe it wasn't his fault. Maybe he was just doing VP's bidding, but it sucked. People I knew who were comfortable with the manifestations for many years were suddenly put into fear over whether they were doing it "right."
I don't know how long before '72 the Intermediate part of the class was still in PFAL. I never heard that it was, but it very well could have been in the really early years.
The things I do remember that were removed from PFAL were "The Day Jesus Christ Died" (which I think was still in when I first took the class) and "The Unforgiveable Sin," which I don't think was still in but was shown separately shortly after the class ended.
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skyrider
Linda.....yeah, revision after revision!
:)-->
What year was Earl's class, anyways? 1980? ...1982?...or thereabouts? And, it did set off lots of questions and concerns about "doing it right." Which again raises OTHER QUESTIONS about this whole area of interpretation of tongues & prophecy in a believers meeting for exhortation and comfort.
Could it be that there were different versions of "right doctrine" amongst wierwille's top leaders....like Earl, Craig, Vince, Johnnie, JAL, & Cgeer? Why was Earl selected? Anybody know?
After 1989 (and Earl Bxrtxn had left twi).....the old tapes of vpw were reintroduced until WAP swallowed up the old wineskins.
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Linda Z
Skyrider:
Earl's class came out in '82 or '83. I know it wasn't before '82, because I worked on the syllabus in Way Pub my first year on staff, which started 8/82.
I never heard why he was chosen to teach it. I do know he didn't much like having his syllabus edited for grammar and clarity.
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