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10 hours ago, waysider said:

I think the point being made here is that Jefferson did not believe in the supernatural.

But even more so to that same point, does anyone really think as chockfull said, is God going to sit up there and say "whoops - you got the password phrase wrong, try again"?  Or your "beliefs" didn't quite line up with the answer, might need a capital "B" and a capital "S". Or, "sorry, you got the wrong Jesus in your answer, it was really the Jefferson one"..

How far does that fundamentalist thinking go?  Because the Pharisees took it pretty far in their day also..

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yeah in PFAL  – didn’t wierwille say something along the lines of if you could do that it meant you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going...well, he lived like the devil so he cert

Most modern scholars believe the first gospel written was Mark and that it was written in about 70 CE. Paul's death is placed at 64 CE. Obviously, he would have written the epistles before the date of

Ok. My initial point here is salvation cannot be lost. If a man sows to the flesh, the old man nature, that man will reap the consequences of his actions - both now and loss of reward at the gathering

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

What doubts do you have?  

My point was that making Him Lord in your life indicates a living Lord, which has a prerequisite of a resurrection.  I guess you can focus on the resurrection, but that is one event in a long sequence.  Why that as opposed to the ascension?  Or the appearances in between?

Doubts about why or how a person thinks they "make him Lord."  If that requires a living Lord, which has a prerequisite of a resurrection, no problem.  Yes, it's one event, but it's the key issue. 

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12 hours ago, waysider said:

I think the point being made here is that Jefferson did not believe in the supernatural.

Simple obedience to the teachings of Jesus can be (and probably is) taken by some to mean "making him Lord" in your life.  However, while that may be a nice way to live life, there is nothing in that that involves believing anything more or beyond what can be known by your senses.  

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2 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

No, it's not still cursed. 

True, hasn't been since Noah. 

2 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

The earth is a wonderful regular garden of eden where peace reigns over all.  I have no enemies, do you?!

Your sarcasm overwhelms me. 

2 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

A better answer?!  Is there a better answer?!  Did we finish defining what being saved means then?

Nothing is finished.  I was fishing for a better or more detailed view of exactly what "trust" God means to you, and/or what you think it means to anyone else. And, your quotes are quite out of synch, and your questions don't have a short answer aside from noting that salvation involves both what's already done and what is yet to come.

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2 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

A fatalist.. No, and I would hope my post didn't seem to imply such. Free will, while I believe was as much of God's plan as anything else, I don't believe it is without limits.

Your saying that God always had it planned "one way" appeared to going that direction, and I didn't see where or how you left room for free will.

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On 6/27/2018 at 9:40 AM, TLC said:

True, hasn't been since Noah.

So what would you call the polluted ground we live on?  Blessed?  While the earth may not have been "cursed again" by God since Noah, it certainly hasn't been restored, which leaves it rather still cursed.  I would think that was rather plain to see in life. Thus my "sarcasm".. Not directed at you, nor to your belief, which I actually didn't realize you had, so if my sarcasm offended you, I apologize. But even Isa 24 speaks of a curse devouring this earth, and Romans 8 continues that theme.

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Nothing is finished.  I was fishing for a better or more detailed view of exactly what "trust" God means to you, and/or what you think it means to anyone else. And, your quotes are quite out of synch, and your questions don't have a short answer aside from noting that salvation involves both what's already done and what is yet to come.

 

You were fishing for a better answer.. And my "better" answer is, "does one exist?"... I don't believe one does, but feel free to share your own.  While people all day long wish to talk about "conditions" for salvation, it has never been about meeting conditions. God has promised it, made it available to all. It is by His grace and His gift that is promised. And it certainly isn't based on our thoughts, our works, and certainly not our mental beliefs. While I realize many like to say, do (A) and (B) and you'll be saved. And there's no doubt we read it in the scriptures, but there's context to that. There was no pat answer even our Lord gave when asked this question. He gave different answers to different people. Why? Because it's not about (A) or (B), it's about the heart. And no law, which is what (A) and (B) represent, can save.  So if you're asking me to define (A) or (B), it isn't going to happen.

But we are defining salvation, yes? So, I think it'd be good to take the time to define what this "salvation" involves. Whether past/present/future. What are these verses showing past/present/future involving

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On 6/27/2018 at 9:52 AM, TLC said:

Your saying that God always had it planned "one way" appeared to going that direction, and I didn't see where or how you left room for free will.

Glad I could clear that up for you.  I think it's a rather large leap to jump from God having a plan, to us being without our own will just acting out said plan. Especially since part of that plan was not just for the messiah that would redeem us, but also for all whom were to be redeemed, which certainly weren't just robots playing a role in His galactic movie. I'm pretty sure we all can agree on that, yes?

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5 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

While the earth may not have been "cursed again" by God since Noah, it certainly hasn't been restored, which leaves it rather still cursed.  I would think that was rather plain to see in life

Perhaps it is rather difficult to imagine what it must have been like prior to the flood, and the change afterwards. (Hence, the reason for his name.  see Gen. 5:29.)
Frankly, I am amazed at what can grow and come out of a garden so quickly at times, with such little effort on my part.  And, I think if you follow the context of what is written in Isaiah 24, it looks to me more like the curse spoken of there is the result of a defiling of the earth by its inhabitants (because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant...)

6 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

And my "better" answer is, "does one exist?"

Now you're just plain being silly, as that's a question, not an answer.

6 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

Because it's not about (A) or (B), it's about the heart.

And it appears to me that you've only talking semantics.  Regardless of what salvation is about, if it's about anything, it's conditional.  
Are you a universalist? (You don't much sound like one, but thought I'd better ask.)

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10 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

Glad I could clear that up for you.  I think it's a rather large leap to jump from God having a plan, to us being without our own will just acting out said plan. Especially since part of that plan was not just for the messiah that would redeem us, but also for all whom were to be redeemed, which certainly weren't just robots playing a role in His galactic movie. I'm pretty sure we all can agree on that, yes?

Perhaps what something looks like and what it's called can vary quite a bit... depending on whether you consider the path (that was) as being fixed (only one way for it to happen), or whether any room for any tweaking is allowed along the way.   I'm sure Bobby Fischer had a plan when he played Spassky in '72.  Was Spassy forced to take the rook on his 3rd from last move? Yeah, looked like it at that point.  No other way would work or make sense. Did Fischer know he was going to win before Spassky made that move? Of course.  Did Spassky know it?  Evidently not.  How far ahead did Fischer see it?  Don't know.  Maybe how "fixed" we see things depends a bit on a few things... like when and where we view it from.  And I have no doubt that God sees things so far out in front of anyone else that it can be said that He declares the end (e.g., ...I win by checkmate) from the beginning.  Doesn't mean there aren't any tweaks along the way... it simply means He knows what the end will be and how to get there.    

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12 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

It is by His grace and His gift that is promised. And it certainly isn't based on our thoughts, our works, and certainly not our mental beliefs.

Mind if I parse a few things from that?  Feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding, or if you intended it as (or to mean) something else.

"It" - meaning salvation (which generally and basically speaking, I would take to mean the attainment of eternal life.)

"by His grace" - I'll agree that without His grace, it's not happening."

"and His gift that is promised"  -  it's actually very unclear to me exactly what you think this is, and/or what you intend it to refer to.  If something (whatever it is) is only promised, then it's yet to be received.

"mental beliefs" -  Believing (from what I understand of it) doesn't originate (or exist) in the mind (i.e., our thinking, or thoughts.)  It's much deeper than that.  It's an issue of (and resides in) the heart.  How things can, do, or might enter the heart (and how it is different from the mind) is a study in and of itself... something which far too few ever give much thought or enough consideration to.  And yes, man is ultimately accountable for what he allows and holds in his heart.  In other words... what he believes. 

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On 6/29/2018 at 11:04 AM, TLC said:

Perhaps it is rather difficult to imagine what it must have been like prior to the flood, and the change afterwards. (Hence, the reason for his name.  see Gen. 5:29.)
Frankly, I am amazed at what can grow and come out of a garden so quickly at times, with such little effort on my part.  And, I think if you follow the context of what is written in Isaiah 24, it looks to me more like the curse spoken of there is the result of a defiling of the earth by its inhabitants (because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant...)

Yes, it's rather impossible to know many specifics of the past.  And while God's creation "still" can amaze us, it is very much "still" cursed because of it's inhabitants as Isaiah 24 AND Genesis 3 says. So I'm glad you agree, it's still cursed! Because of it's inhabitants.. And they both say just that. It hasn't been fixed. While I love how plants are still able to grow. The ground has had it's minerals and nutrients leeched, and most "fruit" from the ground no longer contains all that it used to in times past. Fertilizers are used to try and add some back in, but no human is able to put humpty dumpty back together again. It's broke, it's cursed, has been since Adam and Eve turned from trsting God. Yes, it's our fault!

Just one source out of a million of the decline of plant nutrients.. And that's just in the past 50years. How about the last 1000s? I'm sure we'd all be amazed at how much plants are really lacking, and yet amazed that God's creation still is able to keep us alive! That's some awesome foreplanning!
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/science/a-decline-in-the-nutritional-value-of-crops.html

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And it appears to me that you've only talking semantics.  Regardless of what salvation is about, if it's about anything, it's conditional.  
Are you a universalist? (You don't much sound like one, but thought I'd better ask.)


 

Conditional.. Only in the sense that it is conditioned on God fulfilling His promise, that blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.  And even on that alone, we have confidence in His salvation.  No need to play semantics, or add conditions.  Granted, God has given us much more, and everything He has said and given we can trust in.

And it really would depend on your definition of a universalist.

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On 6/29/2018 at 4:48 PM, TLC said:

Perhaps what something looks like and what it's called can vary quite a bit... depending on whether you consider the path (that was) as being fixed (only one way for it to happen), or whether any room for any tweaking is allowed along the way.   I'm sure Bobby Fischer had a plan when he played Spassky in '72.  Was Spassy forced to take the rook on his 3rd from last move? Yeah, looked like it at that point.  No other way would work or make sense. Did Fischer know he was going to win before Spassky made that move? Of course.  Did Spassky know it?  Evidently not.  How far ahead did Fischer see it?  Don't know.  Maybe how "fixed" we see things depends a bit on a few things... like when and where we view it from.  And I have no doubt that God sees things so far out in front of anyone else that it can be said that He declares the end (e.g., ...I win by checkmate) from the beginning.  Doesn't mean there aren't any tweaks along the way... it simply means He knows what the end will be and how to get there.    

While I can't say much in regard to chess, novice would be an overstatement. I don't think either of us would be saying that God is just playing a big galactic game with us as actors or pawns in that game, would we?

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On 6/29/2018 at 5:20 PM, TLC said:

Mind if I parse a few things from that?  Feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding, or if you intended it as (or to mean) something else.

"It" - meaning salvation (which generally and basically speaking, I would take to mean the attainment of eternal life.)

"by His grace" - I'll agree that without His grace, it's not happening."

"and His gift that is promised"  -  it's actually very unclear to me exactly what you think this is, and/or what you intend it to refer to.  If something (whatever it is) is only promised, then it's yet to be received.

"mental beliefs" -  Believing (from what I understand of it) doesn't originate (or exist) in the mind (i.e., our thinking, or thoughts.)  It's much deeper than that.  It's an issue of (and resides in) the heart.  How things can, do, or might enter the heart (and how it is different from the mind) is a study in and of itself... something which far too few ever give much thought or enough consideration to.  And yes, man is ultimately accountable for what he allows and holds in his heart.  In other words... what he believes. 

"It" is salvation in any sense. Past, present, or future. Tiny or Large. Any and all, by His grace and promise, his gift.

And, "it" has been promised and fulfilled many a times over in varied ways. Just as much as "it" refers to current, and there are future promises. Again "it" is not one specific thing outside of God's deliverance, His saving, and His restoration in part or in whole. Gifts of healing.  Gifts of rescue. Gifts of God.. By His grace and promise. But of course, since the word "salvation" is singular, we use singular nouns of "gift" and "promise", but it gets a bit tough when speaking of a myriad of things that are considered as His salvation.

"Believing" is an English word with many views or "feelings" attached to it. Thanks for sharing yours.

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On 6/29/2018 at 3:35 AM, TrustAndObey said:

So what would you call the polluted ground we live on?  Blessed?  While the earth may not have been "cursed again" by God since Noah, it certainly hasn't been restored, which leaves it rather still cursed.  I would think that was rather plain to see in life. Thus my "sarcasm".. Not directed at you, nor to your belief, which I actually didn't realize you had, so if my sarcasm offended you, I apologize. But even Isa 24 speaks of a curse devouring this earth, and Romans 8 continues that theme.

I'm not so sure I am really liking the whole concept of living in a "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Time" where everything around me is cursed, polluted, and barren.  I like to grow lettuce, tomatoes, and herbs, and cook food.  I know everyone says that seed company Monsanto is born of the devil or something but they could just be engineers too.  

The American Indians had a much more peace producing mental image, of "Mother Earth" who provides for us and we interact with.  

Would those two mental models be called an "innately negative model" versus an "innately positive model"  ????

 

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7 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

Yes, it's rather impossible to know many specifics of the past.  And while God's creation "still" can amaze us, it is very much "still" cursed because of it's inhabitants as Isaiah 24 AND Genesis 3 says. So I'm glad you agree, it's still cursed! Because of it's inhabitants.. And they both say just that. It hasn't been fixed. While I love how plants are still able to grow. The ground has had it's minerals and nutrients leeched, and most "fruit" from the ground no longer contains all that it used to in times past. Fertilizers are used to try and add some back in, but no human is able to put humpty dumpty back together again. It's broke, it's cursed, has been since Adam and Eve turned from trsting God. Yes, it's our fault!

Just one source out of a million of the decline of plant nutrients.. And that's just in the past 50years. How about the last 1000s? I'm sure we'd all be amazed at how much plants are really lacking, and yet amazed that God's creation still is able to keep us alive! That's some awesome foreplanning!
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/science/a-decline-in-the-nutritional-value-of-crops.html

So, prize-winning 500 kilo watermelons in the Garden of Eden?  And we just have to suffer and get by with the 5 kg ones today?

Fresh basil?

Thyme?

Oregano?

Come on now, the farmer's market is in full swing with some of the greatest delicacies in all of life.    Don't be raining on my parade LOL.  

Also, I did see on CBS news a contradictory viewpoint at least with one crop:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marijuana-far-more-potent-than-it-used-to-be-tests-find/

 

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8 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

I don't think either of us would be saying that God is just playing a big galactic game with us as actors or pawns in that game, would we?

Not nice to call it "just playing a big galactic game" given the seriousness (and the consequences) of it, but from a much more sober and strategic perspective, yes.  

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8 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

"It" is salvation in any sense. Past, present, or future. Tiny or Large. Any and all, by His grace and promise, his gift.

And, "it" has been promised and fulfilled many a times over in varied ways. Just as much as "it" refers to current, and there are future promises. Again "it" is not one specific thing outside of God's deliverance, His saving, and His restoration in part or in whole. Gifts of healing.  Gifts of rescue. Gifts of God.. By His grace and promise. But of course, since the word "salvation" is singular, we use singular nouns of "gift" and "promise", but it gets a bit tough when speaking of a myriad of things that are considered as His salvation.

"Believing" is an English word with many views or "feelings" attached to it. Thanks for sharing yours.

You're talking in circles, away from any direction I can make any kind of sense of. 

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On 6/29/2018 at 3:48 PM, TLC said:

Perhaps what something looks like and what it's called can vary quite a bit... depending on whether you consider the path (that was) as being fixed (only one way for it to happen), or whether any room for any tweaking is allowed along the way.   I'm sure Bobby Fischer had a plan when he played Spassky in '72.  Was Spassy forced to take the rook on his 3rd from last move? Yeah, looked like it at that point.  No other way would work or make sense. Did Fischer know he was going to win before Spassky made that move? Of course.  Did Spassky know it?  Evidently not.  How far ahead did Fischer see it?  Don't know.  Maybe how "fixed" we see things depends a bit on a few things... like when and where we view it from.  And I have no doubt that God sees things so far out in front of anyone else that it can be said that He declares the end (e.g., ...I win by checkmate) from the beginning.  Doesn't mean there aren't any tweaks along the way... it simply means He knows what the end will be and how to get there.    

Interesting that our human perspective includes the time in which people become aware of something.  How many moves ahead did Fischer think?  Spassky?  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer)

How about Kasparov?  He didn't think quite as far ahead as Deep Blue, but then again he seemed to survive in the world of humans and just about ran for Russian president lately.

It's hard for me to give myself a "God complex" and try to think like I am not constrained by time.  But then again I'm not in the Way anymore either LOL.

 

 

 

 

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On 7/2/2018 at 3:34 PM, chockfull said:

I'm not so sure I am really liking the whole concept of living in a "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Time" where everything around me is cursed, polluted, and barren.  I like to grow lettuce, tomatoes, and herbs, and cook food.  I know everyone says that seed company Monsanto is born of the devil or something but they could just be engineers too.  

The American Indians had a much more peace producing mental image, of "Mother Earth" who provides for us and we interact with.  

Would those two mental models be called an "innately negative model" versus an "innately positive model"  ????

I understand what you're saying.  Will it ever get as bad as the Thunderdome?! Who knows.. It certainly isn't headed in the right direction.

Monsanto (now part of Bayer) has good and bad employees like all others. Those looking for money, and those just doing their job needing to make a living. Some brilliant scientists and genetic engineers. But then, God created those seeds with more thought than all mankind put together, so I doubt their resulting product will end up being any better for the entire worldwide eco-system.  Especially since the majority of companies are in the end, for profit.

I woukln't lump all American natives together either.  Some were all about ravaging the other tribes, while others were great lovers of nature. The earth God gave to help sustain us.  Plants and animals give their lives every day that we may live. While most never think about what it costs daily to keep humanity alive.

But then, what does this have to do with salvation?!  The world needs saved?! 

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On 7/2/2018 at 3:45 PM, chockfull said:

So, prize-winning 500 kilo watermelons in the Garden of Eden?  And we just have to suffer and get by with the 5 kg ones today?

Come on now, the farmer's market is in full swing with some of the greatest delicacies in all of life.    Don't be raining on my parade LOL.  

Also, I did see on CBS news a contradictory viewpoint at least with one crop:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marijuana-far-more-potent-than-it-used-to-be-tests-find/

 

I'm not sure I would call that "contradictory"..  Since the world began, people have been breeding plants and animals for certain traits.  That article just shows the progression of THC content in the marijuana plant.  That's not even close to what I was talking about.  This isn't about breeding, this is about worldwide decline.  And I would have no doubt that our "breeding" for certain traits plays into ruining the nutritional value of plants.  Whether breeding for brighter reds or more output, as a whole, our organic food is not as healthy as it used to be.  And as most point out, it just means we have to eat more fruits and veggies than we used to.. So enjoy that 5kg watermelon!

As an aside, in Numbers 13, it talks of them butting down a cluster of grapes and having 2 people carry it on a pole. Now, was that really just one cluster?  Were they just being fancy in displaying it? We really don't know.. But seeing that the world record is almost 21lbs for a cluster of grapes, it's not too far to think it could have been a single cluster needing 2 people to carry on a pole.

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13 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

If I'm talking in circles for you, then feel free to point out what doesn't make sense..

You said, "It is by His grace and His gift that is promised."

After noting that I understood you intended "it" to be referring to salvation, I asked for clarification on what you thought or meant by "His gift that is promised" (given that it referred rather specifically to salvation.)  But, when you ran around the barn and then went out to pasture to pick daisies and sing to the trees, I was quite lost as to what you were doing (and talking about) and pretty much figured you either didn't have a clue what was asked or were purposely avoiding it. (Either one bringing an end to the matter.)

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On 7/6/2018 at 1:02 AM, TLC said:

You said, "It is by His grace and His gift that is promised."

After noting that I understood you intended "it" to be referring to salvation, I asked for clarification on what you thought or meant by "His gift that is promised" (given that it referred rather specifically to salvation.)  But, when you ran around the barn and then went out to pasture to pick daisies and sing to the trees, I was quite lost as to what you were doing (and talking about) and pretty much figured you either didn't have a clue what was asked or were purposely avoiding it. (Either one bringing an end to the matter.)

So in not so many words, you didn't quite grasp my "supposed" clarification of "His gift that is promised"?  Seeing that it was my attempt at clarification, and it didn't seem to do that, maybe you can explain what you don't understand..

His gift? Yes, salvation... You understand I don't use the term salvation as being just one event, yes? Not one future event, nor past, nor present. But many events. Understandable? 

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3 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

So in not so many words, you didn't quite grasp my "supposed" clarification of "His gift that is promised"?  Seeing that it was my attempt at clarification, and it didn't seem to do that, maybe you can explain what you don't understand..

His gift? Yes, salvation...

Sometimes people's thinking process seems to be on such different wavelengths (as appears to be the case here), communication between them is virtually impossible.  For instance, the other day I said to the person that happen to sit next to me at a church barbecue (second attempt to engage in friendly conversation with them), "It sure is nice weather...," which prompted the immediate (canned) response of, "Yes, it's a gift of God..."  which was the second  time for what struck me between the eyes as... way, Way, WAY too pious for me to continue with.  

So, if you're perfectly content seeing (most) everything good as a gift from God, or any improvement in the condition of man as a part, a piece, or another step towards salvation... well, maybe that works just fine for you and your fellowship and believing with the Lord.  And that's great, if that's the case.  However, it doesn't work for me in my head.  Unfortunately, I have to (undoubtedly its part of my background and my genetics) work much harder at it.  

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7 minutes ago, TLC said:

Sometimes people's thinking process seems to be on such different wavelengths (as appears to be the case here), communication between them is virtually impossible.  For instance, the other day I said to the person that happen to sit next to me at a church barbecue (second attempt to engage in friendly conversation with them), "It sure is nice weather...," which prompted the immediate (canned) response of, "Yes, it's a gift of God..."  which was the second  time for what struck me between the eyes as... way, Way, WAY too pious for me to continue with.  

Could you possibly consider the phrase as a euphemism or some form of generalization figure of speech from a human who is enjoying a particular aspect of God's creation at the moment who may tend to speak in more "pollyanna" terms?

I mean obviously we are not hearing verbal queues like you did and don't have visuals like you did, and perhaps the person themselves has a tendency towards making "canned" statements in an area that turn you off, and maybe a particular blend of those at a particular moment turned you off.

But is your behavior more indicative of Christ's body and appreciating members in particular or is it more towards the divisional fundamentalist type like we experienced in the Way?  I don't know.  Everyone has to draw lines with respect to how much of another member in particular they can stand for how long because people have different specialties in areas and sometimes quirks to go with it. 

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