Well, fasteel, here's my take. I'm no Bible scholar, but off the top of my head, I think Paul did say something to Timothy about using wine as a remedy for his "infirmities." I'm sure others will come along and show us references to other pharmaceuticals, such as they were in Biblical times. Mostly herbs, I would think. Considering the Bible was written a couple of thousand years before the advent of Prozac, I think it's unrealistic to think that the Bible would have anything authoritative to say about it.
You went to four professional counselors. All four diagnosed you with depression. All four recommended an anti-depressant. If I understand your objections, they are:
1. Drugs, even pot, were condemned by Dr. Wierwille.
2. Revenue from tobacco and alcohol sales may be financing witchcraft operations.
3. Taking an antidepressant is somehow analogous to being stoned in church.
4. Taking an antidepressant means you're not in control of your moods.
Okay, let's look more closely at your objections, keeping in mind that your goal, as stated in your post, is to find a resolution to your "relationship problems."
1. I'm skipping this one, except to mention that "Dr." Wierwille did seek medical care when he was ill.
2. If you really believe this, and object to witchcraft, then don't drink or smoke. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant in your current situation.
3. Antidepressants are not addictive, nor are they "mind-altering" drugs. Unless you have an allergic reaction, you won't hallucinate, have delusions, or feel euphoric. If the drug is working in your body, what you'll feel is normal.
4. If you're severely depressed, then your moods are in control of you right now. From what you've indicated, your dark moods are negatively affecting your relationships. The professionals you consulted recommend medication. The purpose for the medication is to get you back in control.
If you had diabetes or high blood pressure, would you object as strongly to the idea of taking medication to correct your body's deficiency?
I don't think God objects to you finding healing in whatever form it takes.
If your counselors are correct in their diagnosis, then you have a treatable illness, for which the right medications can be found. Whether you take the medication or not is up to you, but if you decide not to I hope you find another way to aggressively treat your depression.
Anti-depressants are not going to be addictive or to have you out of control in your mind. It will help with manufacturing of certain chemicals that will aid in your ability to see things more clearly.
Pot does not help one see more clearly, nor does acid or anything like that. It makes it difficult to function in life.
How about an epileptic should he forego the use of anti-seizure medicine because it goes to correct brain activity?
I do think your question is a very good one as well as well written, but if you are trying to say that an aspirin and pot would be the same in the eyes of God I have to disagree.
I think medicinal drugs can be very Godly and perhaps the counterfeit would be the misuse or using of certain other drugs.
While selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants like Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, etc. are fairly benign drugs, there are common side effects and withdrawal problems. Effexor, and especially Paxil, can interfere with or inhibit orgasm in the male. If this is of concern to you, you may wish to ask for Welbutrin instead. You have a slightly higher risk of seizures on Welbutrin, so you have to weigh the risk yourself.
Antidepressants aren't "happy pills", but they do work. After the first week, you notice that little things just don't bother you as much as they did before. They don't make you high, they don't dull your mind, they just make you feel "better", even though you may not have realized how bad you felt in the first place. I started Effexor to combat carbohydrate cravings (which worked only minimally) but the mood-lifting properties took a lot of stress away.
Once you're on them though, you cannot just quit cold turkey. Even though they are non-addicitive, you have to taper off of them gradually. When switching from Effexor to Welbutrin, I had debilitating bouts of dizziness for nearly 2 weeks. This was coming off of a very low dose, 75mg/day. Those on the more common dose of 150-300mg/day report much more severe withdrawal effects. Your mileage may vary.
I am not depressed! I said they told me I was. Me, I AMM HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY EVERY DAY IN EVERYWAY I AM GETTING BETTER AND BETTRER.
Seriously, I think "depression" is a buzzword to sell more drugs. Wow wonder how much more money the Pzizer company (no the make viagra), or the other companies that profit off of SSRI's sales after 9/11 in the USA? Bet a lot more "depressed people about. I think greif is part of the human existence and usually is gotten through with the help of God not the insurance company. (If you don't have coverage that is like me). You KNow Elijah was really down, wonder what would have happened if he popped a pill to sort throught things.
Anyways I found some sites by victims and consumors of prozac and such and there stories were not as rosie as those comming from the big pharmacy companies. Some claimed to fall in deeper depression when they tried to withdraw from them. This makes sense to me since the brain works as an equilibrium. If you continue to take anything the body compensates. Then if you take away the external stimulus the brain chemistry goes the opposite way.. down.
Another buzz word is ADD. When my daughter was 7 years old the Teachers and Shrinks wanted to convince me Katrina may need some of that Ritalin (the "cure" for Attention Deficiency Syndrome.. what will they think of next... Erection Disfunction?). I think it was wise I emphatically said screw that. She is 17 years old been a B student and is very self confidently beautiful. I heard Cocaine users snort that stuff if they can't get blow.
You know, life is for learning. I did not look so judgementally at others using illegal mind altering drugs, when its OK to go to "church" if you can legally take mind altering drugs. But I SAY NO TO DRUGs as much as I can. DO have an occasional drink and a smoke with it.
I just had a nice peaceful breakfast with the wife I married over 25 years ago with the Way Monisteries guidance. We had just agreed our marriage isn't going to work out but lets be friends anyways. I just said lets not make some lawyers rich now. Besides we already had all our assets taken away by ususry. So life is interesting. I am begining to see resolution to the relation problem i had searched out family therapists to resolve. Sounds good to me now that our kids are just about raised and we don't have much in common (geuss it was the way ministerie beliefs)
I went through a lot of greif and as I get older (one month to the half century mark) I probably will have to face more, alone...... no just me and God. I am not exhibiting the classic sysmpton nor was I. I eat, I sleep, I do other body things and I travel, collect minerals, write poetry, paint murals and make more money than ever. (you can send your abundant sharing to my new ministery.... only kidding). I am resolving things without the help of the mind changing drugs(except what I choose) and It is Me that is doing it. (All because of God's grace of course)
This subject is a hot button in many conservative Churches. Yes, God is supposed to heal us if we believe and because of that, many honest and genuine Christians have been persecuted and pressured if they do not seem to get the results their Church expects.
Sure we ought to go to God if we need healing, but if for some reason we do not receive it even after we have gotten ministered to by another believer, we should go to a doctor for help. The thing that many people don't realize is that there are many forms of treatment for many ailments. We do not need to take just one MD's diagnosis and treatment recommendations as gospel. We can "shop around" if there is time. Or if what a doctor is recommending does not work after a while, consider going for a second opinion or a third. Sometimes a different doctor will recognize what really is going on and prescribe more accurate treatment.
Consider cancer. Some physicians may tell you have 6 months to live, but if you find a clinic that specializes in your form of cancer, they may be able to force it into remission. So if you feel funny about a doctor's diagnosis, it is OK to shop around, consider alternatives and seek advice. However if you seek advice from a minister in addition to physicians, remember that the minister does not have a medical license and therefore should not give medical advice or attempt to negate any doctor's advice.
Consider the recent incident where that woman drowned her sons. She had a medical problem, but also was a memner of a conservative church. Her minister discouraged her from following the treatment recommended by her physician which included taking some drugs that the minister did not approve of. So they shopped around, physicians, but with a different motive. They were trying to find someone who would tell them what they wanted to hear, that she did not have the condition the other doctors said she had and that she could follow a different treatment. What happened? She went over the deep end and her sons are dead and she is in jail! What about the minister and the doctor who gave the bad advice? They go on untouched.
There are certain things ministers have no business advising people of. If they do not have a medical license, they should not advise people in medical matters, only matters of faith and encouragement in that case.
As far as going to 4 different medical people and getting the same diagnosis, yet disbelieving it, I wonder... I'd say go to 4 more. If they all agree, maybe what they are saying might be true and you might be foolish to not follow their advice. I would hate to see another family devistated by the misdiagnosis of a problem or by someone who failed to take medication when they needed it.
Most of these drugs - Paxil, Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Celexa, etc. can be addictive. They are usually started with a low dose and then the dose level is increased as the patient needs it, as he/she gets used to them, etc.
Interestingly enough most of the same drugs that are used to treat depression are also used to treat epileptics, just that the latter group takes higher dosages, as a rule.
Typically, patients under treatment for depression are monitored closly with regular doctor visits and those who are opposed to putting chemicals into their bodies for long periods of times can request to be taken off meds after a year to see how they will function -- it's just something to discuss with your doctor.
If you are on meds NEVER go off them cold-turkey.
You mentioned that if it couldn't be grown, then you wouldn't take it -- Consider St. John's Wort, Kava Kava (be careful - this herb can also cause deeper depression), cammomile, and many others. Talk with a doctor who specializes in homeopathic remedies -- it's becoming more common.
Have you considered finding a support group? Most people I know who have been diagonosed with depression felt they got the most help just from talking with people with the same condition, who had the same concerns, questions, etc. as they did.
Depression is nothing to be ashamed of, nor does it mean you have to go around crying everyday. Although I do agree that doctors are quick to hand out this diagnoses when patients just complain of having a bad hair day, this condition also encompasses many other symptoms -- sleep patterns, thought patterns, mood swings and so on.
Aside from the consideration of alternative medicines and support groups, you may want to look at ways you can change your life -- diet and exercise are some of the biggest factors. Stress and job situations play a big part in it too.
I don't know what your entire lifestyle is like, but I do wish you the best in your efforts!
This one was one of few doctrines that I did not agree with in TWI.
By the rules of doing Word studies. We look at all the places where a word is used and from the context we build a definition.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
pharmakeia is translated as: Witchcraft, or sorcery.
Reading each of these 3 contexts, it is difficult to translate pharmakeia into drugs. Here TWI went to latin and pointed out the similarity between greek (pharmakeia) and latin (pharmacy). To state that these verses meant drug use.
TWI broke their own rules for conducting a word study, they went to see how men of later generations used a word in their vocabulary.
pharmakeia and harlot are both about the only ones that I was able to argue about successfully.
Ya know the ole masterherbalist had to contribute to this one.
I think Fasteel, you hit the nail right on the head when you said THEY SAID you were depressed.
Only you know what is best for you- no matter what anyone says. My problem with the AMA and drug industry is that the love of MONEY is what runs the thinking and not Hypocrates Oath.
All I know after 20 years of researching healing, etc., is that it was obviously a cultural thing for the soldiers to offer up an offering of hyssop and vinegar, which Jesus declined. This combination was a pain reliever.
I have no problem with our foods being our medicine and our medicine being our food. What I have a problem with is the just say no to drugs campaign which made you think that the threat was only the street drugs---heheheheh, ironic to think that they never meant lilly, merck, sharp and dome, etc, but where is the real harm to our society? How many people do you know who AREN'T on some sort of prescription drug? I think when we give up our healthcare to someone other than ourselves, we are asking for trouble. How many people are being told, well your condition is such and such and let's temporarily use this drug until we get your diet and health program to encourage the body to cleanse and repair itself and then you won't need this drug anymore. WOW, now that's a thought!!!!
Without getting long-winded, let me say this about taking medications: my daughter takes meds for Bipolar II, & she also received counseling, which made ALL the difference to this family. I won't go into the gory details; suffice it to say that we went thru 4 yrs. of hell. Her words to me once the medication stabilized in her system were, "I feel like my mind & my body are finally in sync w/each other. I don't feel like I'm going to go crazy." For me, it was the light at the end of the tunnel.
I would NEVER recommend meds alone; I believe counseling should always go hand-in-hand w/it. But all the therapy in the world is limited if the brain chemicals are screwed up.
We do get her bloodwork done regularly to make sure her liver stays in good shape.
The kicker at the time (pre-meds) was that I was married to a man who was also Bipolar, but refused meds or counsel, & he drove us away, literally. I could tell stories that would curl your hair, but I'll spare you.
The most balanced view I've heard on the subject has been on a radio show - New Life Live. The moderator, who by the way founded the Women of Faith conferences, is a really neat guy & he does the show w/3 other guys: 1 medical dr. & 2 psychiatrists, & they are all Christians. People call in w/their problems & they counsel them. I've gotten a lot of post-twi healing from listening to this show.
I hope no one gets offended. meds to me are like cars an society part of our ingrained culture one in which the bible society did not deal with as much. things will wax worse and worse and health would be one of them.
everyone needs to consider their own circumstances in these decisions.
that being said I would like to contribute another point....
some one metioned the mom who killed her children as an example.
Can anyone say LAW SUITS??????
doctors are forced out of practice due to the premiums of malpractice insurance every single day.
So for a doctor to give a quick fix or any type of treatment allows them the out in any type of responsibility towards a patients actions in which they may held accountable for knowing or not knowing .
with hmo's and the utter decline of patient doctor relationship a doctor spends less than five minutes with a person due to insurance exspectations.
To get solid good treatment people need to be very agressive and informed today.
Most are not.
I know for a fact my old doctor would prescribe me drugs just to claim she took action and save herself any questions about treatment or lack of.
the insurance companys are linked with the huge medicine makers as well in money making. Sooo doctors are pressured to conform.
people believe the doctors call the shots and it in reality is the insurance companys.
the better safe than sorry adage is often used for selfish, protective reasoning in medicine today.
I think your asking what is the difference between thc and using a prescription drug as far as church ideals go right?
well sometimes the church has some rules and regulations that seem to fit into what they determine is right ad wrong and since thc is illegal they will shun it.
many christian churces claim to be a better quality of the human race and do good and follow the law of the land
as a witness for the Lord.
The big difference I see is this:
One thc is a depressant itself if I understand its use right, so the medicine of it for depression would just create a cycle that gets worse.
many have claimed addiction to thc although the science of that is still out and I say the same of many of the mood altering drugs popular today that are "legal" or prescribed.
The manner in which a thc user would supply himself is a seedy horrid underground market in which thousands are killed and hurt daily, whether your friendly dealer is clean cut or not the business of itself is one in which society pays a huge price for in many many ways.
crime disease murder courts etc.
So thc as opposed to a prescription drug in Gods eye in some sense would make you a part of what corrupt business that is as well.
One issue that hasnt been addressed yet is that thc, pot, other halucinegens can cause a depletion of important brain chemicals, leading to depression. Alcohol is also a MAJOR depressant!!!!! Sad but true!
The other part would be to give yourself a life stress test! You say you are in the process of ending a life relationship with your wife, have some financial concerns- well those two things alone can put you at the top of a life stress test and lead to depression. So, IMHO, your level of stress might make you suseptable to depression-but only you can add up all the factors and decide.
Make sure you are taking a multi-vitamin and get fresh air and exercise. Some kinds of vitamin deficiencies can cause depression.
Anti depressants can help people break the cycle, and can help your brain chemicals come back to normal. They have literaly saved lives. This does not mean they need to be taken for life-some people just take them for 6 months or so, and then go on with their lives in a healthy way.
I may be wrong here but Fasteel said he just wanted our take on drugs and what we were taught in twi regarding "witchcraft". Right after his first post in which he stated that he just wanted to "iron out" a few things with his family, a PHYSICIAN told him he was depressed. After the first response post, Fasteel reinterated that he was NOT depressed.
That was and has been my whole point. The patient knows best. I did not object to folks taking what they believe or have been led to believe will help them. However, when I KNOW that my Creator has made it available to have it all, then there is no need to settle for less. I have worked with folks who take medications which are designed for a certain ailment, but the side effects and after-effects and long-term effects are not, what one could consider a bargain.
Plus, in specific cases of depression, etc., how many psychologists, etc are trained in physiology and nutrition? Yet, my Bible says the body is many members and one member is not more important than the others. It is near-sighted at best to accept that the drug companies have the remedy in a bottle. And you are right, there is no one herb in a bottle to make that claim either.
The point to my response here is just to say that TRUELY listening to the patient is the first step. You must HEAR what they are saying. I fear that this art is lost in the doctor's office.
Yep, ole Doc Vic comdemned mind altering drugs alright... while he drank and smoked himself into oblivion. But his use of alcohol and tobbacco was "medicinal" I am sure. He probably used Timothy as a "proof text" for his alcohol abuse.
But, let me get this straight... If it grows in the ground then it must be good, and if it is manufactured by a Pharmacutical Company then it must be bad. Is that it? Sorry, I don't get it.
Both natural remedies such as herbs, and modern pharmacuticals have their place. Many (if not most) pharmacuticals have their roots in the plant world. Both herbs and pharmacuticals can be helpful... or deadly. Either can be misused or abused. I recall the time that I ate some "silly" mushrooms. You know, the ones that grow on a cow patty. WOW!. Did I trip my brains out. But the darn things messed up my stomach for days. I much rather preferred pharmacutical grade LSD. So much for "natural". (This was in the 60's folks)
Fredric asked concerning a Christian taking Prosac:
quote:"If that is not anathema when you are in "church" what is wrong with being stoned in church."
The difference is that the Prosac is being taken to address a "medical condition" and not for the purpose of getting messed up, while the pot is being used for the sole purpose of getting high or messed up. Prosac and other such drugs are no good for recreational purposes. This question seems to assume that Prosac and such can mess you up like pot... they can't. I would be more concerned about Xanax, Clonapin, Vicodin, etc. for that seemingly endless supply of folks with anxiety disorder and chronic back pain. Now these can really mess you up and are highly addictive. Danger! Danger!.
But, I have known at least one person who would occasionally quit taking their Prosac, in order to go on a "scheduled" manic for recreational purposes. They said it was better than doing coke or speed. Go figure.
Yep, the medical/phycological community is pretty quick to declare a person depressed and to despense these anti-depressants as a fix. The doctor makes out, the psycologist makes and the drug company makes out. But, as I understand the nunbers, the patient has the same chance of getting better if they eat crawfish one a week and bathe every other day. And it is a pretty sure bet that anti-depressants won't do much good in curing an a$$hole from a$$holism or a lazy bum from being a lazy bum. Character flaws can't be fixed with anti-depressants. But of course these drugs do work wonders in some cases.
As far a TWI's teaching on pharmakeia goes, I am with Galen.
It was a stretch and pretty bad "research".
There are two words that were used. Pharmakeia - witchcraft and Pharmakeus - sorcerer.
According to Strong's:
pharmakeia
1) the use or the administering of drugs
2) poisoning
3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and
fostered by it
4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatrypharmakisr
pharmakeus
from pharmakon (a drug, i.e. spell-giving potion);; n m
AV - sorcerer 1; 1
1) one who prepares or uses magical remedies
2) sorcerer
It seems fairly plain to me that that these words have nothing to do with herbs or medicines used for the healing arts. Pharmakeia has to do with potions and poisons used in the context of witchcraft and sorcery and could even possibly be used metaphoricaly.
Did not Jesus say, "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick" ? (Mat 9:12)
Just my opinion--the research into mental health is still in its infancy, in many ways it is like living in he dark ages, charges and countercharges, the money people controlling the research, and a vast wing of society still willingly in ignorance and ready to apply a stigma (witchcraft? didnt the ridiculousness of that charge end after the debacle in Salem? ) to anyone who even wants to proceed with any type of treatment.
Drugs have there pros and cons, they are absolutely beneficial under the right conditions and have probably saved innumerable lives. However psychiatry without individual sensitivity and with pressure from drug companies has grown to its own cultish ways and doctrines --overmedicating many people to there detriment.
There are actually psychiatrists that require patients once diagnosed to take their medication, and there is a movement to make it a federal law....scary stuff.
They operate under the erroneous assumption that a mental illness is for life and offer no sense of recovery but only shoot for maintenance.
There are other psychiatrists who believe thhat mental illness is a temporary state brought on by life traumas, where mental health can be restored via various means, the correct application of medication being one of them.
Medications in and of themselves can be helpful, they can be a wonderful tool. However if they are misprescribed they can be a huge hindrance to recovery.
So its a tough call, personally I would never (again), deal with a psychiatrist that I wasnt able to build a trusting relationship with, who didn't listen carefully to me , or didnt aid ME in making the decision for myself.
They are tough to find but they are out there. I'd stay away from the ones who have the cultlike preconceived answers for everything...
already been there thanks, and like the pevious cult I was in they offer nothing lasting---
The good ones will-- they can be real life savers.
[This message was edited by mstar1 on July 31, 2002 at 9:49.]
prozac corrects the problem of seratonin (a neurotransmitter) uptake in my brain. since my brain does not either produce enough seratonin or doesn't utilize it efficiently, i encounter memory deficit problems, irratibility, anxiety and depression. prozac simply restores the balance.
there is a world of difference between taking a medication prescribed and overseen by a health professional that helps one lead a more productive and fulfilled life and self medicating oneself to short circuit and instantly access the brain's "euphoria zone."
I did want to start an interesting debate on a controversial subject. It was fun and I enjoyed seeing different points of views. Thanks
I;m afraid I'll have to agree with masterherbalist. I know I need to eat, excercize and take care of my vessel better. I still have a few bad habits, but that is relative. anyways I had a great day swimming in Lake Sylvia, near Gouverneur NY. It is a pristin lake with marble rock around. Beautiful on a sunny day. I was out there swimming with a fellow steel inspector/ biker/ was pretty cool. Just paid for an apartment here because of my job and the way things are evolving and I just got hooked up on line again.
Last year at this time I was so depressed I thought I wasn't going to survive it.
I thought it was hormones... so I had them checked. It wasn't.
I thought it was a vitamin deficiency - so I took herbs and vitamins that are supposed to help. They didn't.
I went to a doctor - an M.D. He recommended I see a psychiatrist for an evaluation and possible medication. I resisted.
I went to a web site about depression and took a test to see if I really needed help. Anyone with a score over 35 was encouraged to seek professional help. My score was a 48. I made an appoinment.
I was diagnosed with clinical depression. Awful. I'm such a happy, funny person - there was NO WAY that could happen to me. But it did.
I started meds. Not the kind that work on seratonin - another type that also helps people quit smoking (which I don't). It took a few weeks to build up in my system. For a while, I didn't think it was going to work. After about a month, I started to feel better.
I have been on an anti-depressant for a year now. I can't even believe I was so depressed a year ago. I'm back to my normal self now,(whatever "normal" is!), and I will stay on this medication until my doctor tells me it's time to stop. I don't care if it's the rest of my life. I don't EVER, EVER want to feel that horrible again. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
My advice is to do whatever it takes to get yourself well. Sometimes it takes medication, therapy, diet and exercise to get mentally healthy again. Sometimes certain meds don't work and you have to try another kind. There are side effects with some that don't occur with others. I was lucky. My doctor got it right the first time.
I have no qualms about admitting that I'm on an anti-depressant. I believe taking this medication saved my sanity. There's no shame or embarrassment to that. Not one bit.
Hope R. color>size>face>
P.S. Anti-depressants are not "happy pills". There are no rose-colored glasses when a person is on medication. You will NOT walk around in a haze smiling and laughing all the time. Not all jokes will seem funny. You will still feel sad when it's appropriate to feel sad, and anger and frustration when they are warranted. What they do is help you deal with those real life challenges that used to seem unmanagable when you were depressed. It makes life a lot easier... and sweeter.
[This message was edited by Hope R. on July 31, 2002 at 20:55.]
P.P.S. Zix - just read your post - don't know how I missed it. "Great minds....."
[This message was edited by Hope R. on July 31, 2002 at 20:59.]
This subject is one that is so complicated for me in some ways. Geeeze, I don't want to get too personal yet I feel like I should share some things.
My family has a genetic blood disease. Yes, it's in our GENES. The symptoms of this disease are other diseases. Yeah, I know, it gets complicated. My point is that no amount of dietary control and discipline, exercise, herb taking, counseling, etc. will extend the lives of my afflicted family members. Drugs, yes, the kind produced by pharmatceutical companies, as evil as they may be, (ok, I'm being a tad bit sarcastic) are what allows my loved ones to live, and have somewhat of a "normal life."
I love what Goey, Hoperich, oenofil and others have shared. I understand in a perfect world, there would be no need for such therapies.
I just think that my family members should have a chance at life, regardless if it involves prescribed medication or not.
By the way, by the grace of God, I nor my children have the genes for this affliction. But my siblings have not fared as well. Hard as I might try, I can't change anybody's genetic make-up with herbs and diet and exercise.
Meds have their place in helping people deal with their problems. Some of these probles are emotional, mental, or genetic. Unfortunatly, many find the meds and use them as a quick solution. It soon becomes a crutch and life can't go one without it.
Find good counseling, work towards the problems, don't accept the doctors telling you you need this to balance your brain's chemicals out. I believe, as I hope you do, in God's power to heal. He may not do it overnight or in a year, but He will. We have to continue to strive for the solution and not accept the meds as the solution. What would the doctors tell Job today?
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Well, fasteel, here's my take. I'm no Bible scholar, but off the top of my head, I think Paul did say something to Timothy about using wine as a remedy for his "infirmities." I'm sure others will come along and show us references to other pharmaceuticals, such as they were in Biblical times. Mostly herbs, I would think. Considering the Bible was written a couple of thousand years before the advent of Prozac, I think it's unrealistic to think that the Bible would have anything authoritative to say about it.
You went to four professional counselors. All four diagnosed you with depression. All four recommended an anti-depressant. If I understand your objections, they are:
1. Drugs, even pot, were condemned by Dr. Wierwille.
2. Revenue from tobacco and alcohol sales may be financing witchcraft operations.
3. Taking an antidepressant is somehow analogous to being stoned in church.
4. Taking an antidepressant means you're not in control of your moods.
Okay, let's look more closely at your objections, keeping in mind that your goal, as stated in your post, is to find a resolution to your "relationship problems."
1. I'm skipping this one, except to mention that "Dr." Wierwille did seek medical care when he was ill.
2. If you really believe this, and object to witchcraft, then don't drink or smoke. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant in your current situation.
3. Antidepressants are not addictive, nor are they "mind-altering" drugs. Unless you have an allergic reaction, you won't hallucinate, have delusions, or feel euphoric. If the drug is working in your body, what you'll feel is normal.
4. If you're severely depressed, then your moods are in control of you right now. From what you've indicated, your dark moods are negatively affecting your relationships. The professionals you consulted recommend medication. The purpose for the medication is to get you back in control.
If you had diabetes or high blood pressure, would you object as strongly to the idea of taking medication to correct your body's deficiency?
I don't think God objects to you finding healing in whatever form it takes.
If your counselors are correct in their diagnosis, then you have a treatable illness, for which the right medications can be found. Whether you take the medication or not is up to you, but if you decide not to I hope you find another way to aggressively treat your depression.
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Dot Matrix
Ditto
Anti-depressants are not going to be addictive or to have you out of control in your mind. It will help with manufacturing of certain chemicals that will aid in your ability to see things more clearly.
Pot does not help one see more clearly, nor does acid or anything like that. It makes it difficult to function in life.
How about an epileptic should he forego the use of anti-seizure medicine because it goes to correct brain activity?
I do think your question is a very good one as well as well written, but if you are trying to say that an aspirin and pot would be the same in the eyes of God I have to disagree.
I think medicinal drugs can be very Godly and perhaps the counterfeit would be the misuse or using of certain other drugs.
Dot Matrix
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Zixar
While selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants like Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, etc. are fairly benign drugs, there are common side effects and withdrawal problems. Effexor, and especially Paxil, can interfere with or inhibit orgasm in the male. If this is of concern to you, you may wish to ask for Welbutrin instead. You have a slightly higher risk of seizures on Welbutrin, so you have to weigh the risk yourself.
Antidepressants aren't "happy pills", but they do work. After the first week, you notice that little things just don't bother you as much as they did before. They don't make you high, they don't dull your mind, they just make you feel "better", even though you may not have realized how bad you felt in the first place. I started Effexor to combat carbohydrate cravings (which worked only minimally) but the mood-lifting properties took a lot of stress away.
Once you're on them though, you cannot just quit cold turkey. Even though they are non-addicitive, you have to taper off of them gradually. When switching from Effexor to Welbutrin, I had debilitating bouts of dizziness for nearly 2 weeks. This was coming off of a very low dose, 75mg/day. Those on the more common dose of 150-300mg/day report much more severe withdrawal effects. Your mileage may vary.
God bless!
Zixar
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fasteel
Dot and Laleo
I am not depressed! I said they told me I was. Me, I AMM HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY EVERY DAY IN EVERYWAY I AM GETTING BETTER AND BETTRER.
Seriously, I think "depression" is a buzzword to sell more drugs. Wow wonder how much more money the Pzizer company (no the make viagra), or the other companies that profit off of SSRI's sales after 9/11 in the USA? Bet a lot more "depressed people about. I think greif is part of the human existence and usually is gotten through with the help of God not the insurance company. (If you don't have coverage that is like me). You KNow Elijah was really down, wonder what would have happened if he popped a pill to sort throught things.
Anyways I found some sites by victims and consumors of prozac and such and there stories were not as rosie as those comming from the big pharmacy companies. Some claimed to fall in deeper depression when they tried to withdraw from them. This makes sense to me since the brain works as an equilibrium. If you continue to take anything the body compensates. Then if you take away the external stimulus the brain chemistry goes the opposite way.. down.
Another buzz word is ADD. When my daughter was 7 years old the Teachers and Shrinks wanted to convince me Katrina may need some of that Ritalin (the "cure" for Attention Deficiency Syndrome.. what will they think of next... Erection Disfunction?). I think it was wise I emphatically said screw that. She is 17 years old been a B student and is very self confidently beautiful. I heard Cocaine users snort that stuff if they can't get blow.
You know, life is for learning. I did not look so judgementally at others using illegal mind altering drugs, when its OK to go to "church" if you can legally take mind altering drugs. But I SAY NO TO DRUGs as much as I can. DO have an occasional drink and a smoke with it.
I just had a nice peaceful breakfast with the wife I married over 25 years ago with the Way Monisteries guidance. We had just agreed our marriage isn't going to work out but lets be friends anyways. I just said lets not make some lawyers rich now. Besides we already had all our assets taken away by ususry. So life is interesting. I am begining to see resolution to the relation problem i had searched out family therapists to resolve. Sounds good to me now that our kids are just about raised and we don't have much in common (geuss it was the way ministerie beliefs)
I went through a lot of greif and as I get older (one month to the half century mark) I probably will have to face more, alone...... no just me and God. I am not exhibiting the classic sysmpton nor was I. I eat, I sleep, I do other body things and I travel, collect minerals, write poetry, paint murals and make more money than ever. (you can send your abundant sharing to my new ministery.... only kidding). I am resolving things without the help of the mind changing drugs(except what I choose) and It is Me that is doing it. (All because of God's grace of course)
Hey I'm OK your OK
Fredric Schuster
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Research Geek
This subject is a hot button in many conservative Churches. Yes, God is supposed to heal us if we believe and because of that, many honest and genuine Christians have been persecuted and pressured if they do not seem to get the results their Church expects.
Sure we ought to go to God if we need healing, but if for some reason we do not receive it even after we have gotten ministered to by another believer, we should go to a doctor for help. The thing that many people don't realize is that there are many forms of treatment for many ailments. We do not need to take just one MD's diagnosis and treatment recommendations as gospel. We can "shop around" if there is time. Or if what a doctor is recommending does not work after a while, consider going for a second opinion or a third. Sometimes a different doctor will recognize what really is going on and prescribe more accurate treatment.
Consider cancer. Some physicians may tell you have 6 months to live, but if you find a clinic that specializes in your form of cancer, they may be able to force it into remission. So if you feel funny about a doctor's diagnosis, it is OK to shop around, consider alternatives and seek advice. However if you seek advice from a minister in addition to physicians, remember that the minister does not have a medical license and therefore should not give medical advice or attempt to negate any doctor's advice.
Consider the recent incident where that woman drowned her sons. She had a medical problem, but also was a memner of a conservative church. Her minister discouraged her from following the treatment recommended by her physician which included taking some drugs that the minister did not approve of. So they shopped around, physicians, but with a different motive. They were trying to find someone who would tell them what they wanted to hear, that she did not have the condition the other doctors said she had and that she could follow a different treatment. What happened? She went over the deep end and her sons are dead and she is in jail! What about the minister and the doctor who gave the bad advice? They go on untouched.
There are certain things ministers have no business advising people of. If they do not have a medical license, they should not advise people in medical matters, only matters of faith and encouragement in that case.
As far as going to 4 different medical people and getting the same diagnosis, yet disbelieving it, I wonder... I'd say go to 4 more. If they all agree, maybe what they are saying might be true and you might be foolish to not follow their advice. I would hate to see another family devistated by the misdiagnosis of a problem or by someone who failed to take medication when they needed it.
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ChasUFarley
Most of these drugs - Paxil, Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Celexa, etc. can be addictive. They are usually started with a low dose and then the dose level is increased as the patient needs it, as he/she gets used to them, etc.
Interestingly enough most of the same drugs that are used to treat depression are also used to treat epileptics, just that the latter group takes higher dosages, as a rule.
Typically, patients under treatment for depression are monitored closly with regular doctor visits and those who are opposed to putting chemicals into their bodies for long periods of times can request to be taken off meds after a year to see how they will function -- it's just something to discuss with your doctor.
If you are on meds NEVER go off them cold-turkey.
You mentioned that if it couldn't be grown, then you wouldn't take it -- Consider St. John's Wort, Kava Kava (be careful - this herb can also cause deeper depression), cammomile, and many others. Talk with a doctor who specializes in homeopathic remedies -- it's becoming more common.
Have you considered finding a support group? Most people I know who have been diagonosed with depression felt they got the most help just from talking with people with the same condition, who had the same concerns, questions, etc. as they did.
Depression is nothing to be ashamed of, nor does it mean you have to go around crying everyday. Although I do agree that doctors are quick to hand out this diagnoses when patients just complain of having a bad hair day, this condition also encompasses many other symptoms -- sleep patterns, thought patterns, mood swings and so on.
Aside from the consideration of alternative medicines and support groups, you may want to look at ways you can change your life -- diet and exercise are some of the biggest factors. Stress and job situations play a big part in it too.
I don't know what your entire lifestyle is like, but I do wish you the best in your efforts!
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Galen
This one was one of few doctrines that I did not agree with in TWI.
By the rules of doing Word studies. We look at all the places where a word is used and from the context we build a definition.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
pharmakeia is translated as: Witchcraft, or sorcery.
Reading each of these 3 contexts, it is difficult to translate pharmakeia into drugs. Here TWI went to latin and pointed out the similarity between greek (pharmakeia) and latin (pharmacy). To state that these verses meant drug use.
TWI broke their own rules for conducting a word study, they went to see how men of later generations used a word in their vocabulary.
pharmakeia and harlot are both about the only ones that I was able to argue about successfully.
galen
ET1 SS
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fasteel
Galen
that seems to be an honest study from a student of the Bible. I find a lot I thought to knew was "private interpretation"
Fredric Schuster
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masterherbalist
Ya know the ole masterherbalist had to contribute to this one.
I think Fasteel, you hit the nail right on the head when you said THEY SAID you were depressed.
Only you know what is best for you- no matter what anyone says. My problem with the AMA and drug industry is that the love of MONEY is what runs the thinking and not Hypocrates Oath.
All I know after 20 years of researching healing, etc., is that it was obviously a cultural thing for the soldiers to offer up an offering of hyssop and vinegar, which Jesus declined. This combination was a pain reliever.
I have no problem with our foods being our medicine and our medicine being our food. What I have a problem with is the just say no to drugs campaign which made you think that the threat was only the street drugs---heheheheh, ironic to think that they never meant lilly, merck, sharp and dome, etc, but where is the real harm to our society? How many people do you know who AREN'T on some sort of prescription drug? I think when we give up our healthcare to someone other than ourselves, we are asking for trouble. How many people are being told, well your condition is such and such and let's temporarily use this drug until we get your diet and health program to encourage the body to cleanse and repair itself and then you won't need this drug anymore. WOW, now that's a thought!!!!
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Freebird
Hi ya'll-
First time to post; what a great site!
Without getting long-winded, let me say this about taking medications: my daughter takes meds for Bipolar II, & she also received counseling, which made ALL the difference to this family. I won't go into the gory details; suffice it to say that we went thru 4 yrs. of hell. Her words to me once the medication stabilized in her system were, "I feel like my mind & my body are finally in sync w/each other. I don't feel like I'm going to go crazy." For me, it was the light at the end of the tunnel.
I would NEVER recommend meds alone; I believe counseling should always go hand-in-hand w/it. But all the therapy in the world is limited if the brain chemicals are screwed up.
We do get her bloodwork done regularly to make sure her liver stays in good shape.
The kicker at the time (pre-meds) was that I was married to a man who was also Bipolar, but refused meds or counsel, & he drove us away, literally. I could tell stories that would curl your hair, but I'll spare you.
The most balanced view I've heard on the subject has been on a radio show - New Life Live. The moderator, who by the way founded the Women of Faith conferences, is a really neat guy & he does the show w/3 other guys: 1 medical dr. & 2 psychiatrists, & they are all Christians. People call in w/their problems & they counsel them. I've gotten a lot of post-twi healing from listening to this show.
Hope this wasn't too lengthy-
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ex10
I don't wanna get in a debate or anything, but I have some experience in this field. Take the meds, dear, and get counseling.
I respect what masterherbalist and others have to say, but herbs don't work for everyone. God's not gonna get ya cause you take meds.
Love, ex10
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mj412
I hope no one gets offended. meds to me are like cars an society part of our ingrained culture one in which the bible society did not deal with as much. things will wax worse and worse and health would be one of them.
everyone needs to consider their own circumstances in these decisions.
that being said I would like to contribute another point....
some one metioned the mom who killed her children as an example.
Can anyone say LAW SUITS??????
doctors are forced out of practice due to the premiums of malpractice insurance every single day.
So for a doctor to give a quick fix or any type of treatment allows them the out in any type of responsibility towards a patients actions in which they may held accountable for knowing or not knowing .
with hmo's and the utter decline of patient doctor relationship a doctor spends less than five minutes with a person due to insurance exspectations.
To get solid good treatment people need to be very agressive and informed today.
Most are not.
I know for a fact my old doctor would prescribe me drugs just to claim she took action and save herself any questions about treatment or lack of.
the insurance companys are linked with the huge medicine makers as well in money making. Sooo doctors are pressured to conform.
people believe the doctors call the shots and it in reality is the insurance companys.
the better safe than sorry adage is often used for selfish, protective reasoning in medicine today.
thanks
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mj412
I think your asking what is the difference between thc and using a prescription drug as far as church ideals go right?
well sometimes the church has some rules and regulations that seem to fit into what they determine is right ad wrong and since thc is illegal they will shun it.
many christian churces claim to be a better quality of the human race and do good and follow the law of the land
as a witness for the Lord.
The big difference I see is this:
One thc is a depressant itself if I understand its use right, so the medicine of it for depression would just create a cycle that gets worse.
many have claimed addiction to thc although the science of that is still out and I say the same of many of the mood altering drugs popular today that are "legal" or prescribed.
The manner in which a thc user would supply himself is a seedy horrid underground market in which thousands are killed and hurt daily, whether your friendly dealer is clean cut or not the business of itself is one in which society pays a huge price for in many many ways.
crime disease murder courts etc.
So thc as opposed to a prescription drug in Gods eye in some sense would make you a part of what corrupt business that is as well.
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anarchist
One issue that hasnt been addressed yet is that thc, pot, other halucinegens can cause a depletion of important brain chemicals, leading to depression. Alcohol is also a MAJOR depressant!!!!! Sad but true!
The other part would be to give yourself a life stress test! You say you are in the process of ending a life relationship with your wife, have some financial concerns- well those two things alone can put you at the top of a life stress test and lead to depression. So, IMHO, your level of stress might make you suseptable to depression-but only you can add up all the factors and decide.
Make sure you are taking a multi-vitamin and get fresh air and exercise. Some kinds of vitamin deficiencies can cause depression.
Anti depressants can help people break the cycle, and can help your brain chemicals come back to normal. They have literaly saved lives. This does not mean they need to be taken for life-some people just take them for 6 months or so, and then go on with their lives in a healthy way.
Best of luck and life to you....
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masterherbalist
Ex-10, I agree there is no need to debate.
I may be wrong here but Fasteel said he just wanted our take on drugs and what we were taught in twi regarding "witchcraft". Right after his first post in which he stated that he just wanted to "iron out" a few things with his family, a PHYSICIAN told him he was depressed. After the first response post, Fasteel reinterated that he was NOT depressed.
That was and has been my whole point. The patient knows best. I did not object to folks taking what they believe or have been led to believe will help them. However, when I KNOW that my Creator has made it available to have it all, then there is no need to settle for less. I have worked with folks who take medications which are designed for a certain ailment, but the side effects and after-effects and long-term effects are not, what one could consider a bargain.
Plus, in specific cases of depression, etc., how many psychologists, etc are trained in physiology and nutrition? Yet, my Bible says the body is many members and one member is not more important than the others. It is near-sighted at best to accept that the drug companies have the remedy in a bottle. And you are right, there is no one herb in a bottle to make that claim either.
The point to my response here is just to say that TRUELY listening to the patient is the first step. You must HEAR what they are saying. I fear that this art is lost in the doctor's office.
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Goey
Yep, ole Doc Vic comdemned mind altering drugs alright... while he drank and smoked himself into oblivion. But his use of alcohol and tobbacco was "medicinal" I am sure. He probably used Timothy as a "proof text" for his alcohol abuse.
But, let me get this straight... If it grows in the ground then it must be good, and if it is manufactured by a Pharmacutical Company then it must be bad. Is that it? Sorry, I don't get it.
Both natural remedies such as herbs, and modern pharmacuticals have their place. Many (if not most) pharmacuticals have their roots in the plant world. Both herbs and pharmacuticals can be helpful... or deadly. Either can be misused or abused. I recall the time that I ate some "silly" mushrooms. You know, the ones that grow on a cow patty. WOW!. Did I trip my brains out. But the darn things messed up my stomach for days. I much rather preferred pharmacutical grade LSD. So much for "natural". (This was in the 60's folks)
Fredric asked concerning a Christian taking Prosac:
The difference is that the Prosac is being taken to address a "medical condition" and not for the purpose of getting messed up, while the pot is being used for the sole purpose of getting high or messed up. Prosac and other such drugs are no good for recreational purposes. This question seems to assume that Prosac and such can mess you up like pot... they can't. I would be more concerned about Xanax, Clonapin, Vicodin, etc. for that seemingly endless supply of folks with anxiety disorder and chronic back pain. Now these can really mess you up and are highly addictive. Danger! Danger!.
But, I have known at least one person who would occasionally quit taking their Prosac, in order to go on a "scheduled" manic for recreational purposes. They said it was better than doing coke or speed. Go figure.
Yep, the medical/phycological community is pretty quick to declare a person depressed and to despense these anti-depressants as a fix. The doctor makes out, the psycologist makes and the drug company makes out. But, as I understand the nunbers, the patient has the same chance of getting better if they eat crawfish one a week and bathe every other day. And it is a pretty sure bet that anti-depressants won't do much good in curing an a$$hole from a$$holism or a lazy bum from being a lazy bum. Character flaws can't be fixed with anti-depressants. But of course these drugs do work wonders in some cases.
As far a TWI's teaching on pharmakeia goes, I am with Galen.
It was a stretch and pretty bad "research".
There are two words that were used. Pharmakeia - witchcraft and Pharmakeus - sorcerer.
According to Strong's:
pharmakeia
1) the use or the administering of drugs
2) poisoning
3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and
fostered by it
4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatrypharmakisr
pharmakeus
from pharmakon (a drug, i.e. spell-giving potion);; n m
AV - sorcerer 1; 1
1) one who prepares or uses magical remedies
2) sorcerer
It seems fairly plain to me that that these words have nothing to do with herbs or medicines used for the healing arts. Pharmakeia has to do with potions and poisons used in the context of witchcraft and sorcery and could even possibly be used metaphoricaly.
Did not Jesus say, "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick" ? (Mat 9:12)
Goey
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mstar1
Just my opinion--the research into mental health is still in its infancy, in many ways it is like living in he dark ages, charges and countercharges, the money people controlling the research, and a vast wing of society still willingly in ignorance and ready to apply a stigma (witchcraft? didnt the ridiculousness of that charge end after the debacle in Salem? ) to anyone who even wants to proceed with any type of treatment.
Drugs have there pros and cons, they are absolutely beneficial under the right conditions and have probably saved innumerable lives. However psychiatry without individual sensitivity and with pressure from drug companies has grown to its own cultish ways and doctrines --overmedicating many people to there detriment.
There are actually psychiatrists that require patients once diagnosed to take their medication, and there is a movement to make it a federal law....scary stuff.
They operate under the erroneous assumption that a mental illness is for life and offer no sense of recovery but only shoot for maintenance.
There are other psychiatrists who believe thhat mental illness is a temporary state brought on by life traumas, where mental health can be restored via various means, the correct application of medication being one of them.
Medications in and of themselves can be helpful, they can be a wonderful tool. However if they are misprescribed they can be a huge hindrance to recovery.
So its a tough call, personally I would never (again), deal with a psychiatrist that I wasnt able to build a trusting relationship with, who didn't listen carefully to me , or didnt aid ME in making the decision for myself.
They are tough to find but they are out there. I'd stay away from the ones who have the cultlike preconceived answers for everything...
already been there thanks, and like the pevious cult I was in they offer nothing lasting---
The good ones will-- they can be real life savers.
[This message was edited by mstar1 on July 31, 2002 at 9:49.]
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oenophile
prozac corrects the problem of seratonin (a neurotransmitter) uptake in my brain. since my brain does not either produce enough seratonin or doesn't utilize it efficiently, i encounter memory deficit problems, irratibility, anxiety and depression. prozac simply restores the balance.
there is a world of difference between taking a medication prescribed and overseen by a health professional that helps one lead a more productive and fulfilled life and self medicating oneself to short circuit and instantly access the brain's "euphoria zone."
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fasteel
Hi Y'all
I did want to start an interesting debate on a controversial subject. It was fun and I enjoyed seeing different points of views. Thanks
I;m afraid I'll have to agree with masterherbalist. I know I need to eat, excercize and take care of my vessel better. I still have a few bad habits, but that is relative. anyways I had a great day swimming in Lake Sylvia, near Gouverneur NY. It is a pristin lake with marble rock around. Beautiful on a sunny day. I was out there swimming with a fellow steel inspector/ biker/ was pretty cool. Just paid for an apartment here because of my job and the way things are evolving and I just got hooked up on line again.
Fredric Schuster
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Hope R.
Okay - I'll fess up...
Last year at this time I was so depressed I thought I wasn't going to survive it.
I thought it was hormones... so I had them checked. It wasn't.
I thought it was a vitamin deficiency - so I took herbs and vitamins that are supposed to help. They didn't.
I went to a doctor - an M.D. He recommended I see a psychiatrist for an evaluation and possible medication. I resisted.
I went to a web site about depression and took a test to see if I really needed help. Anyone with a score over 35 was encouraged to seek professional help. My score was a 48. I made an appoinment.
I was diagnosed with clinical depression. Awful. I'm such a happy, funny person - there was NO WAY that could happen to me. But it did.
I started meds. Not the kind that work on seratonin - another type that also helps people quit smoking (which I don't). It took a few weeks to build up in my system. For a while, I didn't think it was going to work. After about a month, I started to feel better.
I have been on an anti-depressant for a year now. I can't even believe I was so depressed a year ago. I'm back to my normal self now,(whatever "normal" is!), and I will stay on this medication until my doctor tells me it's time to stop. I don't care if it's the rest of my life. I don't EVER, EVER want to feel that horrible again. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
My advice is to do whatever it takes to get yourself well. Sometimes it takes medication, therapy, diet and exercise to get mentally healthy again. Sometimes certain meds don't work and you have to try another kind. There are side effects with some that don't occur with others. I was lucky. My doctor got it right the first time.
I have no qualms about admitting that I'm on an anti-depressant. I believe taking this medication saved my sanity. There's no shame or embarrassment to that. Not one bit.
Hope R. color>size>face>
P.S. Anti-depressants are not "happy pills". There are no rose-colored glasses when a person is on medication. You will NOT walk around in a haze smiling and laughing all the time. Not all jokes will seem funny. You will still feel sad when it's appropriate to feel sad, and anger and frustration when they are warranted. What they do is help you deal with those real life challenges that used to seem unmanagable when you were depressed. It makes life a lot easier... and sweeter.
[This message was edited by Hope R. on July 31, 2002 at 20:55.]
P.P.S. Zix - just read your post - don't know how I missed it. "Great minds....."
[This message was edited by Hope R. on July 31, 2002 at 20:59.]
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ex10
This subject is one that is so complicated for me in some ways. Geeeze, I don't want to get too personal yet I feel like I should share some things.
My family has a genetic blood disease. Yes, it's in our GENES. The symptoms of this disease are other diseases. Yeah, I know, it gets complicated. My point is that no amount of dietary control and discipline, exercise, herb taking, counseling, etc. will extend the lives of my afflicted family members. Drugs, yes, the kind produced by pharmatceutical companies, as evil as they may be, (ok, I'm being a tad bit sarcastic) are what allows my loved ones to live, and have somewhat of a "normal life."
I love what Goey, Hoperich, oenofil and others have shared. I understand in a perfect world, there would be no need for such therapies.
I just think that my family members should have a chance at life, regardless if it involves prescribed medication or not.
By the way, by the grace of God, I nor my children have the genes for this affliction. But my siblings have not fared as well. Hard as I might try, I can't change anybody's genetic make-up with herbs and diet and exercise.
Sorry if I have offended anybody,
ex10
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seeker
Meds have their place in helping people deal with their problems. Some of these probles are emotional, mental, or genetic. Unfortunatly, many find the meds and use them as a quick solution. It soon becomes a crutch and life can't go one without it.
Find good counseling, work towards the problems, don't accept the doctors telling you you need this to balance your brain's chemicals out. I believe, as I hope you do, in God's power to heal. He may not do it overnight or in a year, but He will. We have to continue to strive for the solution and not accept the meds as the solution. What would the doctors tell Job today?
Seeker
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