The empty chair is a reminder that He is coming back, and at any time, and that He is always welcome.
Also, He is here in our midst always, though unseen by the naked eye, not unseen to the Spirit.
He is the cool of the day, the drying of tears, the reason of a laugh, the light through crystals of mist that form the rainbow.
A little girl has a lovely doll in hope of the baby she will one day cherish.
A young boy in biology 101 has a heart full hope for the doctor he wants to be, and that hope holds him to the drudgery between now and then.
Hope and the reminder of the expectations of our heart are normal, and the many ways people adopt to practice the presence of God are exercises engaged so that when He does come, He may say, "Well done, good and faithful servant."
Poetic imagery, Kit. Good for evoking emotions associated with real things. I think that must be how faith, or this "placeholder" phenomon, works so effectively. A cooperative subject can be hypnotized into believing a stapler is a favorite cat, the emotions are easily transferred.
He is here, but evident only to the spirit. The spirit, then, must also be "here," but it is evident (evidently) only to Him. Not, of course, to the senses.
Feelings, which your post may evoke for readers, are taken for evidence because they occur spontaneously in the real world. The work of religion is to borrow those feelings for real things, and associate them with the un-real, the illusory, the imaginary, giving the subject (believer) the sense of reality where none exists.
Of what would faith consist without emotion? Unverifiable dogmas? Suppose you could feel nothing at all. What would remain? "Retemories?"
We are so easily manipulated by our emotions when they are effectively hijacked from reality and held hostage by ANY mythology - spiritual, political, even commercial. The sanitariums are filled with delusional people. They may believe they are living in the Taj Mahal. Is the Taj Mahal a real place? Yes. Are they really there? No.
This is the state of modern religion, as I see it. Most if not all of the "faithful" believe they have some connection to God, but they are convinced only by their emotional bond (fear, joy, guilt, comfort, dread...) to a familiar dogma. God, like the Taj Mahal, is in another realm entirely, and believers, like the incurably insane, can't bring themselves to look around and ask themselves, "What's missing? Should I be looking elsewhere?"
The empty chair is... still empty.
The cool of the day is found in the shade of a tree.
The drying of tears is found in the comfort of a sympathetic friend.
The reason to laugh can be found in the irony of anything, or in nothing at all.
Light, passing through the prismatic "crystals of mist," forms a rainbow because sunlight is made of many colors, and a prism divides them.
The doll is only a toy, and at most a hope, not a promise.
The young boy in biology 101 wants to be a doctor to care for a world which was promised "wholeness."
Hope and expectation are real only when the object of their desire is unfulfilled, that is, unreal.
I agree with Kit. There's nothing wrong with placeholders. We all need them. Sometimes we can't get the job we want right away so we take what we can get. That's a placeholder until we get into our field.
WB - you may miss my point. Placeholders are fine, as long as the surrogate is not allowed to supplant the genuine article.
If you kept a "donut" (spare) tire on your car, or a temporary bridge in your teeth, they would eventually disintegrate.
If your faith is based upon a dogma, that's bad enough, but if you no longer distinguish between an absent God (in Person, in your own life) and a lot of information you choose to accept about Him, your "faith life" (for lack of a better description) will suffer the same fate as your tire and your false teeth: disintegration. They all may keep their form, but they will not serve any other function than adding dead weight, and the likelihood is they will cause harm when you eventually need them.
I was hoping the irony wouldn't be lost on you and you wouldn't just think me a smartass.
quote:If your faith is based upon a dogma, that's bad enough, but if you no longer distinguish between an absent God (in Person, in your own life) and a lot of information you choose to accept about Him, your "faith life" (for lack of a better description) will suffer the same fate as your tire and your false teeth: disintegration. They all may keep their form, but they will not serve any other function than adding dead weight, and the likelihood is they will cause harm when you eventually need them.
I suspect that your point has something to do with the Moslem intolerance of images...
"The sanitariums are filled with delusional people. They may believe they are living in the Taj Mahal. Is the Taj Mahal a real place? Yes. Are they really there? No."
ah, but if they don't know they are delusional, if they are happy in their Taj Mahal, does it make a difference? To those on the outside, it may make a difference, sure. But do the delusional mind being delusional or are their delusional places better than our reality?
"God, like the Taj Mahal, is in another realm entirely, and believers, like the incurably insane, can't bring themselves to look around and ask themselves, "What's missing? Should I be looking elsewhere?"
Is God truly in another realm? Or is the thing that is missing simply the realization that He is here?
Your statement is a blanket one and based on that I have to disagree with it. Certainly there are those who can't bring themselves to look around, but there are many others who can and do.
"The empty chair is... still empty.
The cool of the day is found in the shade of a tree.
The drying of tears is found in the comfort of a sympathetic friend. . . . "
The empty chair holds memories of those who once sat in it, or joy in knowing who will sit in it next.
The cool of the day is found in many places. The shade of the tree, a pond or lake, river or stream.
The drying of tears is also found in the release of the hurt.. . . .
ah, but if they don't know they are delusional, if they are happy in their Taj Mahal, does it make a difference? To those on the outside, it may make a difference, sure. But do the delusional mind being delusional or are their delusional places better than our reality?
Depends on who - Democrats, generally speaking, are happier in a fantasy world, and they are called 'progressive.' Anyone else is just called 'insane.'"
Is God truly in another realm? Or is the thing that is missing simply the realization that He is here?
Irrelevant question, really. Speaking of God, to the observer, the conscious being, the observation is all.
Your statement is a blanket one and based on that I have to disagree with it. Certainly there are those who can't bring themselves to look around, but there are many others who can and do.
1. The prime directive of all blankets is to give warmth and comfort. 2. Those who do "look around" are not part of this discussion.
"The empty chair is... still empty.
The cool of the day is found in the shade of a tree.
The drying of tears is found in the comfort of a sympathetic friend. . . . "
The empty chair holds memories of those who once sat in it, or joy in knowing who will sit in it next.
No, that association exists in the mind of the observer holding the memories. For everyone else, it's just a placeholder for parking butts.
The cool of the day is found in many places. The shade of the tree, a pond or lake, river or stream.
The drying of tears is also found in the release of the hurt.. . . .
Again, true or not, it's irrelevant in this context. This discussion is only referring to the human tendency to bestow the absence of God, much like the absence of a certain emperor's clothes, with the status of presence.
After a cursory reading of this thread, (ok, it's late, i'm off tomorrow and drank a glass of wine) it occurs to me that the promises of Jesus' presence, ie in the Gospels specifically are being brushed aside. Or not addressed or something. We all know the verses...
ex10, you're half-way to communion. Thank you for going the extra half-mile, just to participate.
The premise of the promises' fulfillment is presence, which is to say, being present on the premises, His premise, our premises. We're talking definitions then, aren't we?
ET pointed to the little spot on our foreheads (vicariously) and said, "I'll be right here." He promised, dammit.
By the way, I'm standing right behind you, about 18 inches to your right. Do you sense my presence?
Here's a thought, for you moms and dads. Imagine that your child, at the age of 4 or 5, begins to refer to the furniture as "dad," or "mom," and at the same time, seems to be by all appearances truly and completely oblivious to your voice, touch or even presence.
Would you put the kid in therapy? Or would you take comfort knowing that at least she or he "believes" in you?
Suppose your child was an adult? It might sound a little weird, until you remember that's how you want your children to "believe" in God. Then it seems perfectly okay. Right?
Satori, you night-owl, you. Somehow I knew you would appreciate my vacuity. Or ahem, should I say my non-presence. That's what I so love about you, dear. :D-->
Anyway, back to the topic, which is the concept: the map is not the territory. Our idea of God, our feelings for God, our knowledge of God - all limited, and fallible.
Reading a biography is not knowing the person directly. It is knowing about the person. Loving a person you've read about is certainly possible, but it is not the same thing, by any stretch, as knowing the person. It is a vastly complex concept, rooted in countlessly cross-referenced bits of information, impressions, associations, capable of evoking a powerful emotional response.
A concept is a representation, a picture, a "map." The map is not the territory.
Do you believe in God? Belief, as we understand it, is not a bridge but a barrier, because belief, as WE understand and practice it today, is OUR definition of its object, not the object.
Faith of old, the faith of Jesus, the faith of the bible, cannot be the same thing we call faith today. And how could it be? Something so powerful would have to be concealed from the casual eye, wouldn't it?
"Do you believe in God? Belief, as we understand it, is not a bridge but a barrier, because belief, as WE understand and practice it today, is OUR definition of its object, not the object."
Exactly! One of the first principles one learns when studying Kabbalah is just that. All of these words, ideas, concepts - none of them ARE God, they are just a way to try to know, explain, understand God. To actually know God is beyond our ability to explain or understand, and yet we can actually know Him.
"Depends on who - Democrats, generally speaking, are happier in a fantasy world, and they are called 'progressive.' Anyone else is just called 'insane.'"
Perhaps, but do the insane care what anyone else calls them? Is their world truly even a fantasy world or is their world as real to them as yours is to you? Merely shift a perspective and boom, the whole world has changed.
"Is God truly in another realm? Or is the thing that is missing simply the realization that He is here?
Irrelevant question, really. Speaking of God, to the observer, the conscious being, the observation is all."
Why irrelevant? Perhaps the observation isn't all, but is simply all one can communicate to another.
"Your statement is a blanket one and based on that I have to disagree with it. Certainly there are those who can't bring themselves to look around, but there are many others who can and do.
1. The prime directive of all blankets is to give warmth and comfort. "
A perspective shift - the prime directive of a blanket is to protect one from the cold, or in other words - to shield them from seeing the individual as an individual instead of as on object or a "them".
"No, that association exists in the mind of the observer holding the memories. For everyone else, it's just a placeholder for parking butts."
Perhaps. But whose reality are we most concered with - everyone elses? or our own?
"The empty chair holds memories of those who once sat in it, or joy in knowing who will sit in it next.
No, that association exists in the mind of the observer holding the memories. For everyone else, it's just a placeholder for parking butts."
Perhaps, but neverthe less it does exist. And by its existence and its ability to stir the memories - the event/person/people live on in the minds of those who remember.
"This discussion is only referring to the human tendency to bestow the absence of God, much like the absence of a certain emperor's clothes, with the status of presence."
Whose life is God absent from? How do we know He is absent? If we are unaware of Him does that make Him absent? If I am unware of my son standing behind me, is he absent or present?
Conversely, how does one know He is present? Just because on has faith that He is does that guarantee anything?
Scientifically speaking, the chair is a chair only because we see it as a chair...but it's really just a lot of space with light being bent a certain way.
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Jim
Zero is a placeholder...
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Kit Sober
The empty chair is a reminder that He is coming back, and at any time, and that He is always welcome.
Also, He is here in our midst always, though unseen by the naked eye, not unseen to the Spirit.
He is the cool of the day, the drying of tears, the reason of a laugh, the light through crystals of mist that form the rainbow.
A little girl has a lovely doll in hope of the baby she will one day cherish.
A young boy in biology 101 has a heart full hope for the doctor he wants to be, and that hope holds him to the drudgery between now and then.
Hope and the reminder of the expectations of our heart are normal, and the many ways people adopt to practice the presence of God are exercises engaged so that when He does come, He may say, "Well done, good and faithful servant."
Hopefully,
Kit
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satori001
Poetic imagery, Kit. Good for evoking emotions associated with real things. I think that must be how faith, or this "placeholder" phenomon, works so effectively. A cooperative subject can be hypnotized into believing a stapler is a favorite cat, the emotions are easily transferred.
He is here, but evident only to the spirit. The spirit, then, must also be "here," but it is evident (evidently) only to Him. Not, of course, to the senses.
Feelings, which your post may evoke for readers, are taken for evidence because they occur spontaneously in the real world. The work of religion is to borrow those feelings for real things, and associate them with the un-real, the illusory, the imaginary, giving the subject (believer) the sense of reality where none exists.
Of what would faith consist without emotion? Unverifiable dogmas? Suppose you could feel nothing at all. What would remain? "Retemories?"
We are so easily manipulated by our emotions when they are effectively hijacked from reality and held hostage by ANY mythology - spiritual, political, even commercial. The sanitariums are filled with delusional people. They may believe they are living in the Taj Mahal. Is the Taj Mahal a real place? Yes. Are they really there? No.
This is the state of modern religion, as I see it. Most if not all of the "faithful" believe they have some connection to God, but they are convinced only by their emotional bond (fear, joy, guilt, comfort, dread...) to a familiar dogma. God, like the Taj Mahal, is in another realm entirely, and believers, like the incurably insane, can't bring themselves to look around and ask themselves, "What's missing? Should I be looking elsewhere?"
The empty chair is... still empty.
The cool of the day is found in the shade of a tree.
The drying of tears is found in the comfort of a sympathetic friend.
The reason to laugh can be found in the irony of anything, or in nothing at all.
Light, passing through the prismatic "crystals of mist," forms a rainbow because sunlight is made of many colors, and a prism divides them.
The doll is only a toy, and at most a hope, not a promise.
The young boy in biology 101 wants to be a doctor to care for a world which was promised "wholeness."
Hope and expectation are real only when the object of their desire is unfulfilled, that is, unreal.
Regards...
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satori001
Jim, that's right.
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waterbuffalo
I agree with Kit. There's nothing wrong with placeholders. We all need them. Sometimes we can't get the job we want right away so we take what we can get. That's a placeholder until we get into our field.
Thank God for placeholders
:D-->
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satori001
WB - you may miss my point. Placeholders are fine, as long as the surrogate is not allowed to supplant the genuine article.
If you kept a "donut" (spare) tire on your car, or a temporary bridge in your teeth, they would eventually disintegrate.
If your faith is based upon a dogma, that's bad enough, but if you no longer distinguish between an absent God (in Person, in your own life) and a lot of information you choose to accept about Him, your "faith life" (for lack of a better description) will suffer the same fate as your tire and your false teeth: disintegration. They all may keep their form, but they will not serve any other function than adding dead weight, and the likelihood is they will cause harm when you eventually need them.
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Jim
I was hoping the irony wouldn't be lost on you and you wouldn't just think me a smartass.
I suspect that your point has something to do with the Moslem intolerance of images...
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Abigail
"The sanitariums are filled with delusional people. They may believe they are living in the Taj Mahal. Is the Taj Mahal a real place? Yes. Are they really there? No."
ah, but if they don't know they are delusional, if they are happy in their Taj Mahal, does it make a difference? To those on the outside, it may make a difference, sure. But do the delusional mind being delusional or are their delusional places better than our reality?
"God, like the Taj Mahal, is in another realm entirely, and believers, like the incurably insane, can't bring themselves to look around and ask themselves, "What's missing? Should I be looking elsewhere?"
Is God truly in another realm? Or is the thing that is missing simply the realization that He is here?
Your statement is a blanket one and based on that I have to disagree with it. Certainly there are those who can't bring themselves to look around, but there are many others who can and do.
"The empty chair is... still empty.
The cool of the day is found in the shade of a tree.
The drying of tears is found in the comfort of a sympathetic friend. . . . "
The empty chair holds memories of those who once sat in it, or joy in knowing who will sit in it next.
The cool of the day is found in many places. The shade of the tree, a pond or lake, river or stream.
The drying of tears is also found in the release of the hurt.. . . .
peace friend.
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satori001
I am an equal opportunity shoe-fitter.
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satori001
Peace back atcha, Abby.
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ex10
After a cursory reading of this thread, (ok, it's late, i'm off tomorrow and drank a glass of wine) it occurs to me that the promises of Jesus' presence, ie in the Gospels specifically are being brushed aside. Or not addressed or something. We all know the verses...
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satori001
ex10, you're half-way to communion. Thank you for going the extra half-mile, just to participate.
The premise of the promises' fulfillment is presence, which is to say, being present on the premises, His premise, our premises. We're talking definitions then, aren't we?
ET pointed to the little spot on our foreheads (vicariously) and said, "I'll be right here." He promised, dammit.
By the way, I'm standing right behind you, about 18 inches to your right. Do you sense my presence?
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satori001
Here's a thought, for you moms and dads. Imagine that your child, at the age of 4 or 5, begins to refer to the furniture as "dad," or "mom," and at the same time, seems to be by all appearances truly and completely oblivious to your voice, touch or even presence.
Would you put the kid in therapy? Or would you take comfort knowing that at least she or he "believes" in you?
Suppose your child was an adult? It might sound a little weird, until you remember that's how you want your children to "believe" in God. Then it seems perfectly okay. Right?
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ex10
Satori, you night-owl, you. Somehow I knew you would appreciate my vacuity. Or ahem, should I say my non-presence. That's what I so love about you, dear.
:D-->
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satori001
ex10, you are gifted, and I'm sensing your presents.
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ex10
Well I am on the premises, and I do have gifts and presents, but not if you don't acknowledge my promises or presence.
Otherwise, I'm invisible. Just a pigment of your imagiation, as my eldest used to say.
Cheers.
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satori001
Catch-22. You should start a religion.
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ex10
Call me if you need me.
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satori001
But... aren't you present?
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satori001
Anyway, back to the topic, which is the concept: the map is not the territory. Our idea of God, our feelings for God, our knowledge of God - all limited, and fallible.
Reading a biography is not knowing the person directly. It is knowing about the person. Loving a person you've read about is certainly possible, but it is not the same thing, by any stretch, as knowing the person. It is a vastly complex concept, rooted in countlessly cross-referenced bits of information, impressions, associations, capable of evoking a powerful emotional response.
A concept is a representation, a picture, a "map." The map is not the territory.
Do you believe in God? Belief, as we understand it, is not a bridge but a barrier, because belief, as WE understand and practice it today, is OUR definition of its object, not the object.
Faith of old, the faith of Jesus, the faith of the bible, cannot be the same thing we call faith today. And how could it be? Something so powerful would have to be concealed from the casual eye, wouldn't it?
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Abigail
"Do you believe in God? Belief, as we understand it, is not a bridge but a barrier, because belief, as WE understand and practice it today, is OUR definition of its object, not the object."
Exactly! One of the first principles one learns when studying Kabbalah is just that. All of these words, ideas, concepts - none of them ARE God, they are just a way to try to know, explain, understand God. To actually know God is beyond our ability to explain or understand, and yet we can actually know Him.
this too is a catch-22
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Abigail
"Depends on who - Democrats, generally speaking, are happier in a fantasy world, and they are called 'progressive.' Anyone else is just called 'insane.'"
Perhaps, but do the insane care what anyone else calls them? Is their world truly even a fantasy world or is their world as real to them as yours is to you? Merely shift a perspective and boom, the whole world has changed.
"Is God truly in another realm? Or is the thing that is missing simply the realization that He is here?
Irrelevant question, really. Speaking of God, to the observer, the conscious being, the observation is all."
Why irrelevant? Perhaps the observation isn't all, but is simply all one can communicate to another.
"Your statement is a blanket one and based on that I have to disagree with it. Certainly there are those who can't bring themselves to look around, but there are many others who can and do.
1. The prime directive of all blankets is to give warmth and comfort. "
A perspective shift - the prime directive of a blanket is to protect one from the cold, or in other words - to shield them from seeing the individual as an individual instead of as on object or a "them".
"No, that association exists in the mind of the observer holding the memories. For everyone else, it's just a placeholder for parking butts."
Perhaps. But whose reality are we most concered with - everyone elses? or our own?
"The empty chair holds memories of those who once sat in it, or joy in knowing who will sit in it next.
No, that association exists in the mind of the observer holding the memories. For everyone else, it's just a placeholder for parking butts."
Perhaps, but neverthe less it does exist. And by its existence and its ability to stir the memories - the event/person/people live on in the minds of those who remember.
"This discussion is only referring to the human tendency to bestow the absence of God, much like the absence of a certain emperor's clothes, with the status of presence."
Whose life is God absent from? How do we know He is absent? If we are unaware of Him does that make Him absent? If I am unware of my son standing behind me, is he absent or present?
Conversely, how does one know He is present? Just because on has faith that He is does that guarantee anything?
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CoolWaters
Ummmm...
Define "real", please.
Scientifically speaking, the chair is a chair only because we see it as a chair...but it's really just a lot of space with light being bent a certain way.
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