MJ, are you still in? I think your post is tongue in cheek, but in case it's not or in case your friends are lurking and reading:
The twi(ts) DO NOT readily admit to all the wrongs in twi. They DO NOT admit that vpw was a sex pervert and plagerist. They DO NOT admit that lcm was NOT a MOG. They DO NOT admit that they treated people wrong and ruined lives. They DO NOT admit that they taught and continue to teach things that are WRONG.
I don't know what organization you're involved with but it ain't twi. Sure, they will gloss over some things and minimize some things, but they quickly turn the focus from the past to NOW we are loving....NOW we don't make you turn in travel itineraries....NOW we don't micromanage your lives....BUT they do - it's just done with the foxes underhanded, sly way.
They are still breaking up families and they have not publicly apologized to people for the evil they have had to endure. They still teach lcm's teachings and classes. They still maintain that he was the man of God, they just excuse his actions along in the same class with David or Saul or Solomon did.
Sure, there are some very nice, very naive or very blind people still in twi, but the leadership knows how corrupt it is and they aren't doing one da** thing about it. They still monitor this site and they still harass people trying to find out who is reading these things on here. They still question the motives of people asking questions and they still kick people out.
You can call it what you want, but it's a cult and a very evil one that destroys peoples' lives.
Im not "in" I speak to those who do 'word studies and have meetings and like the minstry.
That is NoT true they do admit to the wrongs done and it is all those who are no longer involved doing!!! the household is wiser and cleaner now they are gone.. meaning those who have left or thrown out.
About teaching things that are wrong, well when I was in they also taught things that where wrong by many many opinions that has not changed at all . Twi has always considered the ministry as cutting edge or different in their doctrines than main stream.
As far as LCM I have spoken to those in about him and they say he is no longer the president and Rosie is.
It is true they do not speak evil of people for the most part and try to redirect the conversation towards the teachings of the classes. This also is nothing NEW to the cult.
Public apology ? come on is that what will stop a cult in your opinion? nearly all the "wrong doers people can pin with facts are no longer involved themselves! so how could twi grant that wish for you?
I am just not hatefull and I do not seek vengence from folks who can now clearly say all these problems have little or nothing to do with where the "ministry" is at now.
Cool water.
well now I guess your warning is needed for many areas of life.
to try to instill fear does not stop those who think God loves them best and will protect them it never did .
I do not believe twi keeps a child molester in its ranks as a leader for their own gain or pleasure. do I think child molesters can be involved in twi? probably, they can be anywhere
about the teachings on sex and scripture and what is the official position on cheating in marriages.
The ones I know do not have a problem with adultry being wrong but they have not gone so far as to come up with a teaching from the way on this topic yet.
quote:That is NoT true they do admit to the wrongs done and it is all those who are no longer involved doing!!! the household is wiser and cleaner now they are gone.. meaning those who have left or thrown out.
MJ, Insurgent is "in" TWI and is telling you first hand what he has seen and heard from his leaders -- And you say it is "NoT true" ????
What gives?
Personally, I think you would rather argue with a fence post rather than try to understand the real facts.
Why not listen to folks who are in a position to know -- and consider what they have to say ?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
I do not believe twi keeps a child molester in its ranks as a leader for their own gain or pleasure. do I think child molesters can be involved in twi? probably, they can be anywhere and your warning is a fact.
Nobody else thought that twi would purposefully keep a child molester in their leadership ranks, either...until it was our children...
They still teach lcm's teachings and classes. They still maintain that he was the man of God, they just excuse his actions along in the same class with David or Saul or Solomon did.
Yeah...just like twi offshoots and ex-twi people who believe twi's biggest mistake was kicking them out...
I speak to those "happy" to be in twi. Those excited about what they are doing and willing to be a part of it without secrets and accusations. lol
I am telling you if insurgent is "in" he isnt sounding to happy about it .
talk about the fence post sitting idea.
I know people do things they do not want to do and some may have stayed in twi long after they thought it was good, but they are the least effective and speak very little for twi today .
The guys I know LOVE it and the reason they love it is because they say the household is clean . the fact is the people who claim all these problems they went through in twi are gone.
same old same old.
It is the best of the best remember? people with problems need not apply anymore.
I spent some time within the past few months with some folks who are still in and they seemed pretty low-key about TWI. Nothing like what I saw in the 80s in terms of excitement.
"It's nice." Best they could do. Seemed like the proverbial "she has a nice personality" line.
Out of curiousity, are young people sticking around? Anyone know? In the 90s, most of the classes were filled with teens of old grads. If it weren't for them, I doubt a class would have run in our area.
I think they are very aware the enemy can be anywhere now .
In the eighties people didnt realize the impact of places like the internet and now the off shoots...
It is far more diffficult for them to justify or huff puff some of the agruements against the way now with so many that have left and fewer who really are vested in the ministry without some problems.
Oh yes they want folks to come but they are MUCH much more careful on who it should be and how it is handled a slower process for sure.
The reason is they know the internet is alive and well and the off shoots and they have to be sure the individual "loves God" enough to handle the pressure these avenue may present to them.
Okay let me put some facts on the table; And a warning this will be a long post
1 CoolWaters and I go back a long way--Our Famiies LIVED TOGETHER--What she says about Pediophiles and and Adultry and all the depravity in The Alaska TWI of the 1980's IS THE TRUTH
2) My children were sexually molested by OUR TC repeatedly--too teriffied to speak of it until they were adults --still reaping the pain and shame--the tears shed in the last 6 years have been hard and bitter as truth comes to light in my and my children's lives
3) the TC in question was finally arrested for molestation outside of TWI and Convicted. He was sentenced to 50 years he served THREE, and then was welcomed back by TWI leadership with OPEN ARMS. You don't think there was some string pulling there?? the ONLY way he could have gotten out so soon was if someone vouched for him and guarenteed that they would be responsible for him. TWI s problem was the regular Joe Belivers didn't want this person anywhere near their children.
4) TWI sent he and his wife back to Ohio--sent them to live with a TC and his family--sent my ex there too. Then everything hit the fan--Turns out that the new TC's had a family in their TWIG (no surprise there LOL) that had a son--Suddenly this family quit TWI and turned their backs on a many year friendship much to astonishment of the TC.
I've communicated with that TC over the years--He is a good person who truly tried to do God's work. Imagine his Shock, Horror, Astonsishment when He found out that his Houseguest (forced on him by TWI Leadership) ws in fact the TC who had molested that couples son many years before. TWI leadership had convinced those parents that they shouldn't go to the authorities that he would be handled internally and appropriate punishment would be meted out.
5) the punishment Meted out was he was sent to Alaska, no civil authorities were ever told, THe USAF was not told AND HE WAS GIVEN A NEW TWIG IN ALASKA!!!!!!!!!!!
6) he was arrested in 1987 IN 1994 he and his wife were dropped from ACTIVE Corps Status. He has NEVER been Marked and Avoided
So for all those of you out there who have warm fuzzy thoughts about TWI let me make something really clear
VICTOR PAUL WIERWILLE KNEW AND CONDONED
LOY CRAIG MARTINDALE KNOWS AND CONDONED
DONNA MARTINDALE KNOWS AND CONDONED
ROSALIE RIVENBARK KNOWS AND CONDONED
HARVY PLATIG KNOWS AND CONDONED
GOT THE PICTURE!!!!!!!
And if you don't believe me print this post off and take it to "leadership" see what they say--It should be interestering--
tell them Maurren Dilley of Anchoarge sends her complements
What amazes me is there are people at GS that condemn people for bring the truth about TWI into the light.
They say if we speak of it we are: bitter, hateful, unforgiving, evil, unable to love, speaking ill of the dead... And that we should not speak of these things... We should not expose them.
Well, we are to role model ourselves after GOD. God had a book written which records in detail all kinds of SINS and BAD things that MOG did in the past. He put it in a book for all of us to read and discuss "forever".
So I guess God is bitter for having it written, for allowing us to talk about it and to expose the darkness with the onset of the light.
God loved DAVID. He did not have to include this special little apple of his eye in the Bible. But he did. He exposed all the good and all the evil which included consequences.
I think we are ordained by God to discuss someone who claims to have been/or be a Man of God. I think it is GODLY to evaluate his ministry. I think to DO so is following GOD's example.
I believe the benefits are:
A. MOG take note and beware. If you screw God's people you will be exposed
B. Lambs that have been tricked by a wolf, it is okay to regroup, discuss the attacks, to heal together, to expose HOW you were attacked, to point at the attacker.
C. It is also available to forgive. But to walk in forgiveness does not mean that you never discuss or learn from the events again. Or you do not point them out to help others from being tricked. (If it were true that once we forgive we are to never discuss things again -- then following our GOD's example -- there would be no Bible.)
SOME people here are too rigid in how they view "love" "forgiveness" "bitterness" and "hate" They think to discuss an event or to warn others means automatically that the individual "hates". I do not see it that way. OR the Bible would hold no lessons. Paul would not be recorded as Saul, David and Bathseba would be missing….
To forgive does not preclude one from learning from past mistakes or talking about them.
There is a difference between gossip and truth.
And to discuss one's ministry exposing EVIL does not mean the induividual talking about it is EVIL.
"You said VPW is evil so therefore you are." "You are discussing some things that are uncomfortable for me to hear -- therefore YOU are bitter."
If we were not suppose to expose darkness - Jesus would have had a lean ministry.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 13:53.]
I want to encourage those of you who think you might not have much of a first hand account to tell, to simply tell what you DO know.
Because sometimes it is a snippit of something here and a little something there, that helps put the huge jigsaw picture together for folks.
And you folks who have something to tell, don't let the naysayers get you down.
They can thunderbluss all they want to, but YOU WERE THERE and YOU SAW it first hand, and that is a powerful witness.
So continue to speak boldly and plainly and truthfully what you have experienced first hand.
And as for admitting what they did wrong, HELL NO they DON'T.
If they did, they would toss out everything LCM taught and all the bad decisions he made, but they continue to implement his policies and procedures and teach his vomitous bile as the truth of God's Holy Word.
And ANY organization that would back a perverse fool like M*r* W*ll*ce, whom I understand they still have in a high leadership position, is vile and devilish.
Anyone who would back up such a vicious dog who took joy in scaring the $hit out of an innocent 11 year old girl should never be in charge of anyone else's life.
Anyone who would instruct me to make death threats to a fellowship member if they allowed their stepdaughter to visit her "unbelieving" grandmother, as far as my own personal opinion, that man shouldn't be trusted with taking out the trash, but instead, he is charge of what, an entire region last time I heard?
And if TWI regrets the ugly behavior of L*rr* & C*nn** P*n*re**o, then why don't they send letters of apology to the entire group of Way Corps he told were so evil and rotten they were responsible for LCM's physical ailments and they should get up and move immediately out of the state!
TWI, if it were serious about admitting the errors they made, would be busy righting the wrongs and injustices they perpetrated upon innocent people.
My phone isn't ringing yet.
I'm not holding my breath either.
And yes, if this information is not kept in front of people, it will happen again.
So please, keep telling it.
And BTW it is good to learn to develop your own ideas and opinions when you leave TWI. Perhaps the reason it can get so passionate here at times is because people are just learning to do so after being intellectually stifled in that cornfield cult for several decades. So we do need to exercise more patience with each other.
But at times we need to ask ourselves when it is best to cool the bickering and get some perspective, especially when there seems to be no profit involved.
When I post I try to not only be mindful of the people actually seen on the thread, but also those who only lurk-- Both those who are looking to leave TWI, and those who would try to prevent the escape of funds from TWI's coffers. My comments and challenges are to them as well. If we forget who else is listening, we do them and ourselves a disfavor.
Personally I'd like to see some unification and purpose behind exposing TWI and commitment to see these things kept in view.
We are more powerful together than divided. And remember, divide and conquer has always been TWI's modus operandi, in the organization as well as on this website.
[This message was edited by Catcup on March 16, 2004 at 13:35.]
The ones I talk to think that the bad situations in the way in the past was because
WE WERE THE EVIL ONES! do you not get this? now it is like the new and so much more improved twi! All the bad evil followers who had problems are gone because God cleaned it up for them. God loves them more than He ever did us .
>>
Yes well I was aware of this view and it was
being pushed right after POP and even as the original splinter groups were forming. Actually some of the splinter groups were using the same "logic" to make their outfit more appealing ("We're leaving the dead wood behind and moving on").
And those choosing to remain with TWI were made to believe that it was all part of God's will to eliminate devil spirit infestations from headquarters and restore the household to its pristine state.
Obviously its a trick and its never ending.
They never have to improve because they can
blame any and all problems on troublemakers past and present.
I think telling the truth is needed in every situation in life.
The problem comes in when you read about folkks unable or unwilling to speak up even for their own self or their children and then a story is told accusing another of some horrid act with no proof what so ever.
it is not worthy really on the internet esp. I stay in contact I speak face to face because of the nature of humans to discount one another , and knowing how alot of hate and bitterness towards the way has been on the net I just do not think it is any more effective than people venting their problems.
which is fine to do if you think it helps you. but that is not the way today you see they are better new and improved and the troubled folks from the past are gone. I talk to them of some of the issues and they have always agreed problems happened they do not deny problems or trouble with people they say that is why they must be the way they are out of concern for one another BECAUSE of the past problems to make sure it doesnt happen again.
same as the off shoots they cant possibly be doing the same things that caused the problems with people because they are so much wiser know better and of course truly love you.
This is not a new mind set it has always been used to keep silent those speaking what they believe is truth for them.
Remember when it didnt matter what people think? because it was good for you? well that has not changed for anyone. in or out.
You have kept in touch with some of the people still in TWI or its offshoots. Good -- being able to look someone in the eye can be very helpful. Being there and loving a person who still wants to stay in such a group is a good thing to do. No disagreement there.
But I have also seen that posting here has helped, too. It helped me, by validating my experience (hearing that other people experienced similar things), and by putting together a history of what was going on behind the scenes in TWI that I had no idea about (so I know that, for me, leaving was the best thing I could have done).
And I have heard from others that they have been helped, too.
And 'scuse me, but I can't let you say this unchallenged...
quote:The problem comes in when you read about folkks unable or unwilling to speak up even for their own self or their children and then a story is told accusing another of some horrid act with no proof what so ever.
My understanding from their story is that, when they found out what was happening, they DID speak out. They were the whistle blowers, and they got punished for it, when they should have been thanked and commended. They are now going out on a limb again (and catching flak for it) to prevent that jerk or others of his ilk from doing it yet again.
You have a problem with that???
Regards,
Shaz
(Who blew the whistle once herself, on the job, and was forced out of the job for it.)
I have spoken to some not all . that those kicked out for causing problems ( I am one and I go back) and those causing problems are gone.
victory sells alot quicker than victim to those who have never left this is the walk that goes with the talk..
new people or people going back are told that the degree of questioning andinvolvement is needed to safe guard them from the enemy because of what happened in the past.
You know as well asI do story be told the way always had folks who thought it was a cult. the only thing different now is the storys can be excused with the idea of bitterness and revenge for not being well enough and asked to leave and never come back.
Gs does help people but not those who think they are doing well and feeling good about being in the way or an off shoot Gs proves the fact that some have considered the way an enemy and want to attack them which is very unloving and unkind. We are talking about folks who want to be good people and think they have found the answer to being the best for God . When somone says I was in for twenty years and this happened and I allowed this and then that happened and the story is gross and ugly it proves the fact they should have never been in such a wonderful ministry in the first place and the way just had to clean the house to make it as good as it is.
do I have a problem with people telling their storys? no I think if it helps them it helps them but I wish people would not fall into the TRICK of thinking they are saving the world or mankind from evil by being a forever victim, when I know for a fact victory sells so much better and that is the manner a cult is formed. problems are not really tolerated in The way and if a person comes across as ridden with trauma and problems it speaks volumes on why they are now gone.
the bible is used to state deliverence and happy relationships not ones full of strife and victims and that is the base line they will go to. not what people outside the loving group about somone they know or hearlittle or nothing about that was in ten years or twenty ago that has left or been thrown out.
I say this in the nicest way possible, but you seem to be very condescending to what people say here. It is okay to be in disagreement but you come off as if you know what decision we all should have made, but because we were not as strong or as wise as you, we were tricked.
Just remember, at some time you must have been very tricked too, since you claim that you were totally involved at some point but got "marked early".
You state that you have taught your children thus and thus from the beginning as though, those of us that might have more "gray" areas in our life, have not been very good parents. At least not as good as you, because you taught your child early about homosexuality. As if doing this made your child less prone to the influences of homosexuality. Of course this is what you would believe because you believe it is a choice.
Your self-righteousness flows over into many areas of your writings. You have much fear in your life, you just don't know it because you cover it up with your self-righteousness.
"When somone says I was in for twenty years and this happened and I allowed this and then that happened and the story is gross and ugly it proves the fact they should have never been in such a wonderful ministry in the first place and the way just had to clean the house to make it as good as it is."
Since I have been the one to share the twenty some years experience, I am just jumping to the conclusion that you are talking about me. Never should have been in a "wonderful ministry in the first place", you have got to be kidding. I won't even respond to this devilish doctrine that you promote.
If it is such a wonderful ministry, why did you get "marked" so early and if it is such a clean and wonderful ministry, why don't you fellowship regularly with them?? Or do you? Hey at least tell the truth if you are going to post here like you know everything about TWI. And can defend them, no matter what your twisted logic.
I thought maybe you and I could converse, but you are like someone else on another thread mentioned, like talking to a fence post. Because you already think you are better than everybody else.
quote:The problem comes in when you read about folkks unable or unwilling to speak up even for their own self or their children and then a story is told accusing another of some horrid act with no proof what so ever.
quote:When somone says I was in for twenty years and this happened and I allowed this and then that happened and the story is gross and ugly it proves the fact they should have never been in such a wonderful ministry in the first place and the way just had to clean the house to make it as good as it is.
MJ,
I am beginning to suspect that you are either still in TWI or else you really want to be.
The above statements show either naiveity and gullibility or extreme callousness and denial.
What you are saying here is that those who were used and abused either lied about it (no proof) or what happened to them happened because the were not worthy enough to have been in such a "wonderful ministy" as TWI and were just dirtying up the place.
Who are you kidding? -- Where does that leave you? (Assuming any of your story is actualy true.)
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insurgent
MJ, are you still in? I think your post is tongue in cheek, but in case it's not or in case your friends are lurking and reading:
The twi(ts) DO NOT readily admit to all the wrongs in twi. They DO NOT admit that vpw was a sex pervert and plagerist. They DO NOT admit that lcm was NOT a MOG. They DO NOT admit that they treated people wrong and ruined lives. They DO NOT admit that they taught and continue to teach things that are WRONG.
I don't know what organization you're involved with but it ain't twi. Sure, they will gloss over some things and minimize some things, but they quickly turn the focus from the past to NOW we are loving....NOW we don't make you turn in travel itineraries....NOW we don't micromanage your lives....BUT they do - it's just done with the foxes underhanded, sly way.
They are still breaking up families and they have not publicly apologized to people for the evil they have had to endure. They still teach lcm's teachings and classes. They still maintain that he was the man of God, they just excuse his actions along in the same class with David or Saul or Solomon did.
Sure, there are some very nice, very naive or very blind people still in twi, but the leadership knows how corrupt it is and they aren't doing one da** thing about it. They still monitor this site and they still harass people trying to find out who is reading these things on here. They still question the motives of people asking questions and they still kick people out.
You can call it what you want, but it's a cult and a very evil one that destroys peoples' lives.
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washingtonweather
exactly !
When are the gonna say:
"ADULTRY IS WRONG"
amoung the many other things that are not even close to christian or biblical that they will NOT take a stand on!
TWI is a full study in projection...run by sociopaths of all garden growing zones!
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mj412
Im not "in" I speak to those who do 'word studies and have meetings and like the minstry.
That is NoT true they do admit to the wrongs done and it is all those who are no longer involved doing!!! the household is wiser and cleaner now they are gone.. meaning those who have left or thrown out.
About teaching things that are wrong, well when I was in they also taught things that where wrong by many many opinions that has not changed at all . Twi has always considered the ministry as cutting edge or different in their doctrines than main stream.
As far as LCM I have spoken to those in about him and they say he is no longer the president and Rosie is.
It is true they do not speak evil of people for the most part and try to redirect the conversation towards the teachings of the classes. This also is nothing NEW to the cult.
Public apology ? come on is that what will stop a cult in your opinion? nearly all the "wrong doers people can pin with facts are no longer involved themselves! so how could twi grant that wish for you?
I am just not hatefull and I do not seek vengence from folks who can now clearly say all these problems have little or nothing to do with where the "ministry" is at now.
Cool water.
well now I guess your warning is needed for many areas of life.
to try to instill fear does not stop those who think God loves them best and will protect them it never did .
I do not believe twi keeps a child molester in its ranks as a leader for their own gain or pleasure. do I think child molesters can be involved in twi? probably, they can be anywhere
and your warning is a fact.
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mj412
yes I do ask them that
about the teachings on sex and scripture and what is the official position on cheating in marriages.
The ones I know do not have a problem with adultry being wrong but they have not gone so far as to come up with a teaching from the way on this topic yet.
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Goey
MJ,
You posted:
MJ, Insurgent is "in" TWI and is telling you first hand what he has seen and heard from his leaders -- And you say it is "NoT true" ????
What gives?
Personally, I think you would rather argue with a fence post rather than try to understand the real facts.
Why not listen to folks who are in a position to know -- and consider what they have to say ?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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CoolWaters
Nobody else thought that twi would purposefully keep a child molester in their leadership ranks, either...until it was our children...
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CoolWaters
Yeah...just like twi offshoots and ex-twi people who believe twi's biggest mistake was kicking them out...
Sigh.
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mj412
I speak to those "happy" to be in twi. Those excited about what they are doing and willing to be a part of it without secrets and accusations. lol
I am telling you if insurgent is "in" he isnt sounding to happy about it .
talk about the fence post sitting idea.
I know people do things they do not want to do and some may have stayed in twi long after they thought it was good, but they are the least effective and speak very little for twi today .
The guys I know LOVE it and the reason they love it is because they say the household is clean . the fact is the people who claim all these problems they went through in twi are gone.
same old same old.
It is the best of the best remember? people with problems need not apply anymore.
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JustThinking
mj,
I spent some time within the past few months with some folks who are still in and they seemed pretty low-key about TWI. Nothing like what I saw in the 80s in terms of excitement.
"It's nice." Best they could do. Seemed like the proverbial "she has a nice personality" line.
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JustThinking
Out of curiousity, are young people sticking around? Anyone know? In the 90s, most of the classes were filled with teens of old grads. If it weren't for them, I doubt a class would have run in our area.
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mj412
I think they are very aware the enemy can be anywhere now .
In the eighties people didnt realize the impact of places like the internet and now the off shoots...
It is far more diffficult for them to justify or huff puff some of the agruements against the way now with so many that have left and fewer who really are vested in the ministry without some problems.
Oh yes they want folks to come but they are MUCH much more careful on who it should be and how it is handled a slower process for sure.
The reason is they know the internet is alive and well and the off shoots and they have to be sure the individual "loves God" enough to handle the pressure these avenue may present to them.
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Steve!
whoops
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templelady
Okay let me put some facts on the table; And a warning this will be a long post
1 CoolWaters and I go back a long way--Our Famiies LIVED TOGETHER--What she says about Pediophiles and and Adultry and all the depravity in The Alaska TWI of the 1980's IS THE TRUTH
2) My children were sexually molested by OUR TC repeatedly--too teriffied to speak of it until they were adults --still reaping the pain and shame--the tears shed in the last 6 years have been hard and bitter as truth comes to light in my and my children's lives
3) the TC in question was finally arrested for molestation outside of TWI and Convicted. He was sentenced to 50 years he served THREE, and then was welcomed back by TWI leadership with OPEN ARMS. You don't think there was some string pulling there?? the ONLY way he could have gotten out so soon was if someone vouched for him and guarenteed that they would be responsible for him. TWI s problem was the regular Joe Belivers didn't want this person anywhere near their children.
4) TWI sent he and his wife back to Ohio--sent them to live with a TC and his family--sent my ex there too. Then everything hit the fan--Turns out that the new TC's had a family in their TWIG (no surprise there LOL) that had a son--Suddenly this family quit TWI and turned their backs on a many year friendship much to astonishment of the TC.
I've communicated with that TC over the years--He is a good person who truly tried to do God's work. Imagine his Shock, Horror, Astonsishment when He found out that his Houseguest (forced on him by TWI Leadership) ws in fact the TC who had molested that couples son many years before. TWI leadership had convinced those parents that they shouldn't go to the authorities that he would be handled internally and appropriate punishment would be meted out.
5) the punishment Meted out was he was sent to Alaska, no civil authorities were ever told, THe USAF was not told AND HE WAS GIVEN A NEW TWIG IN ALASKA!!!!!!!!!!!
6) he was arrested in 1987 IN 1994 he and his wife were dropped from ACTIVE Corps Status. He has NEVER been Marked and Avoided
So for all those of you out there who have warm fuzzy thoughts about TWI let me make something really clear
VICTOR PAUL WIERWILLE KNEW AND CONDONED
LOY CRAIG MARTINDALE KNOWS AND CONDONED
DONNA MARTINDALE KNOWS AND CONDONED
ROSALIE RIVENBARK KNOWS AND CONDONED
HARVY PLATIG KNOWS AND CONDONED
GOT THE PICTURE!!!!!!!
And if you don't believe me print this post off and take it to "leadership" see what they say--It should be interestering--
tell them Maurren Dilley of Anchoarge sends her complements
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Dot Matrix
What amazes me is there are people at GS that condemn people for bring the truth about TWI into the light.
They say if we speak of it we are: bitter, hateful, unforgiving, evil, unable to love, speaking ill of the dead... And that we should not speak of these things... We should not expose them.
Well, we are to role model ourselves after GOD. God had a book written which records in detail all kinds of SINS and BAD things that MOG did in the past. He put it in a book for all of us to read and discuss "forever".
So I guess God is bitter for having it written, for allowing us to talk about it and to expose the darkness with the onset of the light.
God loved DAVID. He did not have to include this special little apple of his eye in the Bible. But he did. He exposed all the good and all the evil which included consequences.
I think we are ordained by God to discuss someone who claims to have been/or be a Man of God. I think it is GODLY to evaluate his ministry. I think to DO so is following GOD's example.
I believe the benefits are:
A. MOG take note and beware. If you screw God's people you will be exposed
B. Lambs that have been tricked by a wolf, it is okay to regroup, discuss the attacks, to heal together, to expose HOW you were attacked, to point at the attacker.
C. It is also available to forgive. But to walk in forgiveness does not mean that you never discuss or learn from the events again. Or you do not point them out to help others from being tricked. (If it were true that once we forgive we are to never discuss things again -- then following our GOD's example -- there would be no Bible.)
SOME people here are too rigid in how they view "love" "forgiveness" "bitterness" and "hate" They think to discuss an event or to warn others means automatically that the individual "hates". I do not see it that way. OR the Bible would hold no lessons. Paul would not be recorded as Saul, David and Bathseba would be missing….
To forgive does not preclude one from learning from past mistakes or talking about them.
There is a difference between gossip and truth.
And to discuss one's ministry exposing EVIL does not mean the induividual talking about it is EVIL.
"You said VPW is evil so therefore you are." "You are discussing some things that are uncomfortable for me to hear -- therefore YOU are bitter."
If we were not suppose to expose darkness - Jesus would have had a lean ministry.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 13:53.]
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Catcup
I want to encourage those of you who think you might not have much of a first hand account to tell, to simply tell what you DO know.
Because sometimes it is a snippit of something here and a little something there, that helps put the huge jigsaw picture together for folks.
And you folks who have something to tell, don't let the naysayers get you down.
They can thunderbluss all they want to, but YOU WERE THERE and YOU SAW it first hand, and that is a powerful witness.
So continue to speak boldly and plainly and truthfully what you have experienced first hand.
And as for admitting what they did wrong, HELL NO they DON'T.
If they did, they would toss out everything LCM taught and all the bad decisions he made, but they continue to implement his policies and procedures and teach his vomitous bile as the truth of God's Holy Word.
And ANY organization that would back a perverse fool like M*r* W*ll*ce, whom I understand they still have in a high leadership position, is vile and devilish.
Anyone who would back up such a vicious dog who took joy in scaring the $hit out of an innocent 11 year old girl should never be in charge of anyone else's life.
Anyone who would instruct me to make death threats to a fellowship member if they allowed their stepdaughter to visit her "unbelieving" grandmother, as far as my own personal opinion, that man shouldn't be trusted with taking out the trash, but instead, he is charge of what, an entire region last time I heard?
And if TWI regrets the ugly behavior of L*rr* & C*nn** P*n*re**o, then why don't they send letters of apology to the entire group of Way Corps he told were so evil and rotten they were responsible for LCM's physical ailments and they should get up and move immediately out of the state!
TWI, if it were serious about admitting the errors they made, would be busy righting the wrongs and injustices they perpetrated upon innocent people.
My phone isn't ringing yet.
I'm not holding my breath either.
And yes, if this information is not kept in front of people, it will happen again.
So please, keep telling it.
And BTW it is good to learn to develop your own ideas and opinions when you leave TWI. Perhaps the reason it can get so passionate here at times is because people are just learning to do so after being intellectually stifled in that cornfield cult for several decades. So we do need to exercise more patience with each other.
But at times we need to ask ourselves when it is best to cool the bickering and get some perspective, especially when there seems to be no profit involved.
When I post I try to not only be mindful of the people actually seen on the thread, but also those who only lurk-- Both those who are looking to leave TWI, and those who would try to prevent the escape of funds from TWI's coffers. My comments and challenges are to them as well. If we forget who else is listening, we do them and ourselves a disfavor.
Personally I'd like to see some unification and purpose behind exposing TWI and commitment to see these things kept in view.
We are more powerful together than divided. And remember, divide and conquer has always been TWI's modus operandi, in the organization as well as on this website.
[This message was edited by Catcup on March 16, 2004 at 13:35.]
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diazbro
mj412 said:
<<
The ones I talk to think that the bad situations in the way in the past was because
WE WERE THE EVIL ONES! do you not get this? now it is like the new and so much more improved twi! All the bad evil followers who had problems are gone because God cleaned it up for them. God loves them more than He ever did us .
>>
Yes well I was aware of this view and it was
being pushed right after POP and even as the original splinter groups were forming. Actually some of the splinter groups were using the same "logic" to make their outfit more appealing ("We're leaving the dead wood behind and moving on").
And those choosing to remain with TWI were made to believe that it was all part of God's will to eliminate devil spirit infestations from headquarters and restore the household to its pristine state.
Obviously its a trick and its never ending.
They never have to improve because they can
blame any and all problems on troublemakers past and present.
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Jim
Dead wood burns the hottest. I'm glad to be in good company.
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shazdancer
Dear mj,
Not bitter, just telling the truth. Something we were often not supposed to do in TWI, as it might mean "speaking a negative."
Dear Mo,
My deepest thanks for your post.
Regards,
Shaz
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mj412
I think telling the truth is needed in every situation in life.
The problem comes in when you read about folkks unable or unwilling to speak up even for their own self or their children and then a story is told accusing another of some horrid act with no proof what so ever.
it is not worthy really on the internet esp. I stay in contact I speak face to face because of the nature of humans to discount one another , and knowing how alot of hate and bitterness towards the way has been on the net I just do not think it is any more effective than people venting their problems.
which is fine to do if you think it helps you. but that is not the way today you see they are better new and improved and the troubled folks from the past are gone. I talk to them of some of the issues and they have always agreed problems happened they do not deny problems or trouble with people they say that is why they must be the way they are out of concern for one another BECAUSE of the past problems to make sure it doesnt happen again.
same as the off shoots they cant possibly be doing the same things that caused the problems with people because they are so much wiser know better and of course truly love you.
This is not a new mind set it has always been used to keep silent those speaking what they believe is truth for them.
Remember when it didnt matter what people think? because it was good for you? well that has not changed for anyone. in or out.
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shazdancer
Dear mj,
You have kept in touch with some of the people still in TWI or its offshoots. Good -- being able to look someone in the eye can be very helpful. Being there and loving a person who still wants to stay in such a group is a good thing to do. No disagreement there.
But I have also seen that posting here has helped, too. It helped me, by validating my experience (hearing that other people experienced similar things), and by putting together a history of what was going on behind the scenes in TWI that I had no idea about (so I know that, for me, leaving was the best thing I could have done).
And I have heard from others that they have been helped, too.
And 'scuse me, but I can't let you say this unchallenged...
My understanding from their story is that, when they found out what was happening, they DID speak out. They were the whistle blowers, and they got punished for it, when they should have been thanked and commended. They are now going out on a limb again (and catching flak for it) to prevent that jerk or others of his ilk from doing it yet again.You have a problem with that???
Regards,
Shaz
(Who blew the whistle once herself, on the job, and was forced out of the job for it.)
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mj412
I have spoken to some not all . that those kicked out for causing problems ( I am one and I go back) and those causing problems are gone.
victory sells alot quicker than victim to those who have never left this is the walk that goes with the talk..
new people or people going back are told that the degree of questioning andinvolvement is needed to safe guard them from the enemy because of what happened in the past.
You know as well asI do story be told the way always had folks who thought it was a cult. the only thing different now is the storys can be excused with the idea of bitterness and revenge for not being well enough and asked to leave and never come back.
Gs does help people but not those who think they are doing well and feeling good about being in the way or an off shoot Gs proves the fact that some have considered the way an enemy and want to attack them which is very unloving and unkind. We are talking about folks who want to be good people and think they have found the answer to being the best for God . When somone says I was in for twenty years and this happened and I allowed this and then that happened and the story is gross and ugly it proves the fact they should have never been in such a wonderful ministry in the first place and the way just had to clean the house to make it as good as it is.
do I have a problem with people telling their storys? no I think if it helps them it helps them but I wish people would not fall into the TRICK of thinking they are saving the world or mankind from evil by being a forever victim, when I know for a fact victory sells so much better and that is the manner a cult is formed. problems are not really tolerated in The way and if a person comes across as ridden with trauma and problems it speaks volumes on why they are now gone.
the bible is used to state deliverence and happy relationships not ones full of strife and victims and that is the base line they will go to. not what people outside the loving group about somone they know or hearlittle or nothing about that was in ten years or twenty ago that has left or been thrown out.
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outofdafog
Mj12,
I say this in the nicest way possible, but you seem to be very condescending to what people say here. It is okay to be in disagreement but you come off as if you know what decision we all should have made, but because we were not as strong or as wise as you, we were tricked.
Just remember, at some time you must have been very tricked too, since you claim that you were totally involved at some point but got "marked early".
You state that you have taught your children thus and thus from the beginning as though, those of us that might have more "gray" areas in our life, have not been very good parents. At least not as good as you, because you taught your child early about homosexuality. As if doing this made your child less prone to the influences of homosexuality. Of course this is what you would believe because you believe it is a choice.
Your self-righteousness flows over into many areas of your writings. You have much fear in your life, you just don't know it because you cover it up with your self-righteousness.
outofdafog
:(-->
outofdafog
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outofdafog
"When somone says I was in for twenty years and this happened and I allowed this and then that happened and the story is gross and ugly it proves the fact they should have never been in such a wonderful ministry in the first place and the way just had to clean the house to make it as good as it is."
Since I have been the one to share the twenty some years experience, I am just jumping to the conclusion that you are talking about me. Never should have been in a "wonderful ministry in the first place", you have got to be kidding. I won't even respond to this devilish doctrine that you promote.
If it is such a wonderful ministry, why did you get "marked" so early and if it is such a clean and wonderful ministry, why don't you fellowship regularly with them?? Or do you? Hey at least tell the truth if you are going to post here like you know everything about TWI. And can defend them, no matter what your twisted logic.
I thought maybe you and I could converse, but you are like someone else on another thread mentioned, like talking to a fence post. Because you already think you are better than everybody else.
outofdafog
:D-->
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Goey
Selected Quotes From MJ:
MJ,
I am beginning to suspect that you are either still in TWI or else you really want to be.
The above statements show either naiveity and gullibility or extreme callousness and denial.
What you are saying here is that those who were used and abused either lied about it (no proof) or what happened to them happened because the were not worthy enough to have been in such a "wonderful ministy" as TWI and were just dirtying up the place.
Who are you kidding? -- Where does that leave you? (Assuming any of your story is actualy true.)
I find your comments incredulous.
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