Cults come in all sizes and shapes. You can't judge a cult by its cover.
The one feature all cults hold in common is that their leaders have a double agenda. There is an open agenda, which is used to attract and pump up the followers. Then there is the leaders' hidden agenda, which is radically different from the open agenda.
The followers think they are pursuing, and are committed to the open agenda.
The open agenda of TWI was to "move the Word over the world" by establishing twig fellowship in every community on the face of the earth. The hidden agenda was to build a religious empire with Wierwille as the emperor.
The classical Greeks, as they did with so many other aspects of our culture, were the first to systematize imperialism. Here's how they did it. A mother-city, say Athens or Corinth, would send a group of colonists out somewhere where there was no city, say Sicily or southern Italy or the shores of the Black Sea. The mother city would support the colony until it became established as a city on its own. Then, after it was making money, the colony would send tribute back to the mother-city. That's one of the prime methods Athens used to build its empire, which resulted in the Golden Age of Greece.
TWI was a religious empire. WOW Ambassadors (colonists) would be sent out to establish blue-form twigs where there were none before (colonies). Once the colonies were established, they sent tribute back to HQ in the form of the abundant sharing. All this was done to enhance the power and wealth of VP Wierwille and his cronies.
I don't think the leaders of CES have evil intentions of becoming emperors themselves, but I DO believe they were deceived into believing the open aganda was real, just like the rest of us.
The "Word" (PFAL) was not the Bible as it was known and taught in the first century. It was, and is, a pastiche of plagiarism, poorly swiped from others and cobbled together by a gifted confidence man.
To the extent that the leaders of CES believe what we were taught in PFAL is "the Word as it has not been known since the first century", and to the extent that they believe the practices of TWI were godly devices, they continue to pursue the dead Wierwille's goal of building a religious empire.
And the leaders of CES are clueless that's what they're doing... because they are STILL fooled into believing that TWI's open agenda was real.
The Way International grew out of Vic Wierwille, who in turn grew out of the E&R Church. It should come as no surprise that TWI shared many denominational traits. Does that make TWI another denomination?
Well, where does cancer come from? It has the person's DNA, doesn't it? It is part of the person's body, isn't it? Sort of. Cancer, and TWI, are still abberations. Similarities are not enough to give either a pass.
Oldiesman struggles with the similarities. It must be a duck! It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It sucks blood like a duck. It walks like a duck. Uh, wait a minute. Hmmm. Back up one. The rest of us must pause. Do we explain the differences in terms of the similarities, as Oldiesman does? Or do we investigate further? Is our little "duck" more like Daffy, or Dracula? Hey, what's the diff? They're both ducks.
Do Christian denominations teach that God wants all Christians to follow some Moses-like "man of God?" (And who "acted" more like a Moses-type? Paul the Apostle, or Victor Paul the Assh*le?) Do Christian denominations teach their leaders and female followers that pre-marital and extra-marital sex is "profitable?" Probably not, or we'd have seen it on Geraldo Rivera.
This isn't to say most denominations are anything great. But they mostly have built-in accountability. Checks. Balances. Reviews. Standards which do not change with the "revelation" of a few elites.
As Athena sprang from the head of Zeus, a new-age version (what was Momentus, anyway?) of Wayworld's "bible integrity" has sprung out from TWI's... pick whatever body part comes to mind. CES folks are "not your father's Oldsmobile." They are younger, hipper, more accessible, and yessiree, you betcha, by golly folks, they hold the knowledge, the (lost) "keys." They scrupulously avoid, for the most part, any use of TWI lingo, but this should ring familiar. What are they appealing to? It's the same appeal as every other multi-level marketer on the planet.
quote:When accurately understood, the Word of God brings great deliverance from fear, doubt and worry, and leads the individual Christian to genuine freedom, confidence and joy in living.
quote: Beyond such practical blessings, however, our goal is to enable the student to do biblical research for himself, so he is able to develop his own convictions, separate truth from error, and become an effective communicator of God's Word.
There is nothing wrong with the "promises," but there is something inherently deceitful in the promisers (God's self-appointed "teachers") and in their implied promises.
They are presenting the bible as a self-improvement course, and there is no bigger snake-oil business in the universe these days.
Do you want to understand the bible? READ it. The old Buddhist phrase should ring true, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." In other words, there is no way to cram yourself full of spirituality by associating yourself with others who want to show you how. Turn and run.
Believing in a cult is like a mental "computer virus" that re-writes the way you look at life. It's a lot easier to clean a virus from a PC than it is to re-write the operating system and get it back to it's original state. In our own case, we're talking about personality, not just opinions. You can change a few habits, stop using the lingo, but TWI went deeper than that. Look at Oldiesman, by his own professed example. He still can't believe TWI was a cult. He didn't just drink the Koolaid, he ate it right out of the little paper packets.
CES's leaders may be just as snowed as their followers, unconsciously following their own TWI instructions. I wouldn't be too surprised, seeing some of what they've written.
To me, the whole ideology of "head" and "body" is the inherent error...someone's always "the boss".
It does not matter what group one looks at, the end result of "leadership" gone amok is the same everywhere.
Many denominations will not allow a pastor to stay in a church for more than 2 or 3 years because of this. After about 3 years, the pastor becomes more of the "leader" and less of the servant...and it's hard for anybody to keep on the "straight and narrow" when given that much authority for that length of time. Isn't that why there are term limits for presidents?
It's like the cancer analogy...everybody can get cancer, nobody knows why some do and some don't....we have some clues...we do our best...but because cancer is of ourselves, we're all susceptible.
It is true in companies that want to move and grow as well. Retail constantly changes the managers that work directly with the employees for the same reasons..
it is clear why. power over others is a mess thing and very sneaky in its manipulations. Money is a root so is many other considerations such as lust or even laziness or compliance with status norm to fit in. Jesus trusted no man for a reason, he knew what is in all of us.
quote:I don't think the leaders of CES have evil intentions of becoming emperors themselves, but I DO believe they were deceived into believing the open aganda was real, just like the rest of us.
This seems to be at the heart of the disagreement. But I fall on the side of TWI-1 being a genuine, godly ministry. It did have its ungodly elements, people still do sin, yes; but lots of folks got born again, lots of folks learned more about God that made some sense, and folks got blessed along the way. That's why we hung around so long. TWI-1's open agenda was the real godly thing. It's what some did in secret that was the most hurtful.
Coolwaters, I stand corrected. I've been around Greasespot long enough to know that I can't speak for everyone. So the above statement is a guess for most, not a fact. I suppose there were folks that hung around a long time but not necessarily because it was the godly thing for they themselves to do.
yes as long as you think your doing it for God it is all good.
that can go a LOOOOONG Way in life with n false justicfication and self righteous and arrogance no matter what, I mean it isnt about you or anything it is the higher plane of thinking so it has to be good.
That's why this whole topic is so hard to comment definitively on: one person's cult is another person's godly religion, and so forth.
I fall on the side of freedom of religion. If you don't like someone's brand, just go elsewhere. But you don't have to continuously condemn or put down those who remain of a certain viewpoint other than yours. We did that in twi, WHY DO IT NOW? What makes you so right, and others so wrong? and visa versa ...
oldies - I can identify with your position. It was one I held myself for a long, long time. What finally convinced me was comparing what Wierwille wrote in PFAL with what's actually written in the Bible, and with what bona fide scholars have found out about how the Word actually WAS known and taught in the first century.
I think Wierwille larded a lot of truth into his cover story, and God worked with people who believed those truths. That's why so many people, myself included, DID get blessed.
But those truths were part of the cover story, not part of Wierwille's heart. The true goal of "Word (PFAL - Wierwille's plagiarized rehashings) Over the World" was to funnel ever increasing amounts of money into the treasury.
Wierwille didn't even share this stuff with the yes-men he kept around himself. That's why ALL the leaders crapped out in '86-'87. That's why TWI tanked.
When I was involved with TWI, my intentions were good. When I found out about the adultery ('87), I left.
When I was involved with CES, my intentions were good, and I believe everyone else's, including the leaders, were good too.
Then Momentus came along. It was like a hurricane. Piecing together how and why that happened has taken a long time.
It was because of what satori calls the DNA.
People still believe they are pursuing the "movement of God's Word Over the World". Unfortunately, they're doing it the only way they know how, by unwittingly applying the techniques of building a religious empire.
yeah Steve and it is an ego trip that denies the Lord of our life Jesus Christ.
the more people get into the works of groups like CES the less they can recognize the freedom they have by the price of His blood. the more they think they should do hence the cult empire....and the attitude of who did enough and who didnt.
bottom line Jesus did it ALL for us and is still knocking on the door asking to be a part of your life he asks for zero worship of any other God other than Our Father. no works can pay the price of his life for I said FOR our freedom as Gods children.
people like to impress people with how much they can prove they know God the bible says no one can know God or His way the only way is to recognize Jesus as Christ for mankind.
groups and their sales and their ego trips shut him out and make it about what they and you can do for one another .
What good does it do to just continue lambasting away at it tho? Could you be doing exactly what he wants? In show business they have a saying, "All publicity is good plublicity". Could you possibly just be giving him the forum that he seeks? Since he doesnt defend himself that is certainly the question that comes to my mind.
I understand providing details for the uniformed, but what about the rest? Could it be that the prevailing attitude that was in The Way about correctness could be just as easily turned around to punish?
Im not punishing Im stating hwo I feel in the discussion .
oh yes they love to be considered victims in an attack on them and that is the twist many will play in their mind. they try to make it personal and a attack on them it takes the focus off the real questions people may have after hearing somone cause "division" in the body of christ!!! oo yeah that is bad and a heavy isnt it?
I Know it man, I hear yah, just be careful that you arent just giving them the constant attention. It doesnt bother them man. I think they like it. Maybe were just dealing the deck that they want dealt. All I'm saying is that it will be fun to move on to something positive. :)-->
Your concerns are often raised on this kind of thread. People will find what they're looking for, pro or con. Can't really control that, although I do my best. The dialog is the important thing.
"Move on to something more positive" is really a way of saying don't discuss anything negative, isn't it? Imagine how many verses would have to be removed if, upon your suggestion, God couldn't mention anything negative.
MJ -- actually, no. I was speaking of personal things that have happened to me in my life long before I ever met twi. Those things that occurred to me then, were what I was speaking of, but yea -- twi could be construed that way too.
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CoolWaters
As OM and some others aptly point out...it's the same thing everywhere you go...
Maybe it's not twi teaching so much as it's Western thinking...
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Steve Lortz
Cults come in all sizes and shapes. You can't judge a cult by its cover.
The one feature all cults hold in common is that their leaders have a double agenda. There is an open agenda, which is used to attract and pump up the followers. Then there is the leaders' hidden agenda, which is radically different from the open agenda.
The followers think they are pursuing, and are committed to the open agenda.
The open agenda of TWI was to "move the Word over the world" by establishing twig fellowship in every community on the face of the earth. The hidden agenda was to build a religious empire with Wierwille as the emperor.
The classical Greeks, as they did with so many other aspects of our culture, were the first to systematize imperialism. Here's how they did it. A mother-city, say Athens or Corinth, would send a group of colonists out somewhere where there was no city, say Sicily or southern Italy or the shores of the Black Sea. The mother city would support the colony until it became established as a city on its own. Then, after it was making money, the colony would send tribute back to the mother-city. That's one of the prime methods Athens used to build its empire, which resulted in the Golden Age of Greece.
TWI was a religious empire. WOW Ambassadors (colonists) would be sent out to establish blue-form twigs where there were none before (colonies). Once the colonies were established, they sent tribute back to HQ in the form of the abundant sharing. All this was done to enhance the power and wealth of VP Wierwille and his cronies.
I don't think the leaders of CES have evil intentions of becoming emperors themselves, but I DO believe they were deceived into believing the open aganda was real, just like the rest of us.
The "Word" (PFAL) was not the Bible as it was known and taught in the first century. It was, and is, a pastiche of plagiarism, poorly swiped from others and cobbled together by a gifted confidence man.
To the extent that the leaders of CES believe what we were taught in PFAL is "the Word as it has not been known since the first century", and to the extent that they believe the practices of TWI were godly devices, they continue to pursue the dead Wierwille's goal of building a religious empire.
And the leaders of CES are clueless that's what they're doing... because they are STILL fooled into believing that TWI's open agenda was real.
Love,
Steve
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satori001
The Way International grew out of Vic Wierwille, who in turn grew out of the E&R Church. It should come as no surprise that TWI shared many denominational traits. Does that make TWI another denomination?
Well, where does cancer come from? It has the person's DNA, doesn't it? It is part of the person's body, isn't it? Sort of. Cancer, and TWI, are still abberations. Similarities are not enough to give either a pass.
Oldiesman struggles with the similarities. It must be a duck! It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It sucks blood like a duck. It walks like a duck. Uh, wait a minute. Hmmm. Back up one. The rest of us must pause. Do we explain the differences in terms of the similarities, as Oldiesman does? Or do we investigate further? Is our little "duck" more like Daffy, or Dracula? Hey, what's the diff? They're both ducks.
Do Christian denominations teach that God wants all Christians to follow some Moses-like "man of God?" (And who "acted" more like a Moses-type? Paul the Apostle, or Victor Paul the Assh*le?) Do Christian denominations teach their leaders and female followers that pre-marital and extra-marital sex is "profitable?" Probably not, or we'd have seen it on Geraldo Rivera.
This isn't to say most denominations are anything great. But they mostly have built-in accountability. Checks. Balances. Reviews. Standards which do not change with the "revelation" of a few elites.
As Athena sprang from the head of Zeus, a new-age version (what was Momentus, anyway?) of Wayworld's "bible integrity" has sprung out from TWI's... pick whatever body part comes to mind. CES folks are "not your father's Oldsmobile." They are younger, hipper, more accessible, and yessiree, you betcha, by golly folks, they hold the knowledge, the (lost) "keys." They scrupulously avoid, for the most part, any use of TWI lingo, but this should ring familiar. What are they appealing to? It's the same appeal as every other multi-level marketer on the planet.
There is nothing wrong with the "promises," but there is something inherently deceitful in the promisers (God's self-appointed "teachers") and in their implied promises.They are presenting the bible as a self-improvement course, and there is no bigger snake-oil business in the universe these days.
Do you want to understand the bible? READ it. The old Buddhist phrase should ring true, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." In other words, there is no way to cram yourself full of spirituality by associating yourself with others who want to show you how. Turn and run.
Believing in a cult is like a mental "computer virus" that re-writes the way you look at life. It's a lot easier to clean a virus from a PC than it is to re-write the operating system and get it back to it's original state. In our own case, we're talking about personality, not just opinions. You can change a few habits, stop using the lingo, but TWI went deeper than that. Look at Oldiesman, by his own professed example. He still can't believe TWI was a cult. He didn't just drink the Koolaid, he ate it right out of the little paper packets.
CES's leaders may be just as snowed as their followers, unconsciously following their own TWI instructions. I wouldn't be too surprised, seeing some of what they've written.
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CoolWaters
To me, the whole ideology of "head" and "body" is the inherent error...someone's always "the boss".
It does not matter what group one looks at, the end result of "leadership" gone amok is the same everywhere.
Many denominations will not allow a pastor to stay in a church for more than 2 or 3 years because of this. After about 3 years, the pastor becomes more of the "leader" and less of the servant...and it's hard for anybody to keep on the "straight and narrow" when given that much authority for that length of time. Isn't that why there are term limits for presidents?
It's like the cancer analogy...everybody can get cancer, nobody knows why some do and some don't....we have some clues...we do our best...but because cancer is of ourselves, we're all susceptible.
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mj412
It is true in companies that want to move and grow as well. Retail constantly changes the managers that work directly with the employees for the same reasons..
it is clear why. power over others is a mess thing and very sneaky in its manipulations. Money is a root so is many other considerations such as lust or even laziness or compliance with status norm to fit in. Jesus trusted no man for a reason, he knew what is in all of us.
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CoolWaters
Yep mj...and that's why the root question in my mind concerning religions is...
To whom do they point when asked, "What is the authority structure of this church?"
If the answer is anything but Jesus (not "the word", either..."the word" is not the LORD), it's not a place to be, imo.
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oldiesman
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CoolWaters
Momentary derail here....
I didn't hang around because I was getting blessed along the way. I hung around because I didn't know any better.
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oldiesman
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mj412
"a godly thing for they themselves to do"
yes as long as you think your doing it for God it is all good.
that can go a LOOOOONG Way in life with n false justicfication and self righteous and arrogance no matter what, I mean it isnt about you or anything it is the higher plane of thinking so it has to be good.
have mercy .
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oldiesman
That's why this whole topic is so hard to comment definitively on: one person's cult is another person's godly religion, and so forth.
I fall on the side of freedom of religion. If you don't like someone's brand, just go elsewhere. But you don't have to continuously condemn or put down those who remain of a certain viewpoint other than yours. We did that in twi, WHY DO IT NOW? What makes you so right, and others so wrong? and visa versa ...
I say live and let live ...
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mj412
now therefore no condemation to those in christ Jesus .
yeah I know the verses OM I just do not get an ego trip off them anymore .
what is more important freedom of speech or freedom of religon?
you can believe in any group you like and I can say anything I like about how I feel about them .
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oldiesman
ok fine, then I shant condemn TWI for speaking evil of other religions.
It's their right under freedom of speech.
:)-->
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mj412
twi condemed their own followers OM for not being good enough for them hahaha
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Steve Lortz
oldies - I can identify with your position. It was one I held myself for a long, long time. What finally convinced me was comparing what Wierwille wrote in PFAL with what's actually written in the Bible, and with what bona fide scholars have found out about how the Word actually WAS known and taught in the first century.
I think Wierwille larded a lot of truth into his cover story, and God worked with people who believed those truths. That's why so many people, myself included, DID get blessed.
But those truths were part of the cover story, not part of Wierwille's heart. The true goal of "Word (PFAL - Wierwille's plagiarized rehashings) Over the World" was to funnel ever increasing amounts of money into the treasury.
Wierwille didn't even share this stuff with the yes-men he kept around himself. That's why ALL the leaders crapped out in '86-'87. That's why TWI tanked.
When I was involved with TWI, my intentions were good. When I found out about the adultery ('87), I left.
When I was involved with CES, my intentions were good, and I believe everyone else's, including the leaders, were good too.
Then Momentus came along. It was like a hurricane. Piecing together how and why that happened has taken a long time.
It was because of what satori calls the DNA.
People still believe they are pursuing the "movement of God's Word Over the World". Unfortunately, they're doing it the only way they know how, by unwittingly applying the techniques of building a religious empire.
Love,
Steve
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mj412
yeah Steve and it is an ego trip that denies the Lord of our life Jesus Christ.
the more people get into the works of groups like CES the less they can recognize the freedom they have by the price of His blood. the more they think they should do hence the cult empire....and the attitude of who did enough and who didnt.
bottom line Jesus did it ALL for us and is still knocking on the door asking to be a part of your life he asks for zero worship of any other God other than Our Father. no works can pay the price of his life for I said FOR our freedom as Gods children.
people like to impress people with how much they can prove they know God the bible says no one can know God or His way the only way is to recognize Jesus as Christ for mankind.
groups and their sales and their ego trips shut him out and make it about what they and you can do for one another .
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sky4it
Question for you guys:
satori, mj, oldie others:
What good does it do to just continue lambasting away at it tho? Could you be doing exactly what he wants? In show business they have a saying, "All publicity is good plublicity". Could you possibly just be giving him the forum that he seeks? Since he doesnt defend himself that is certainly the question that comes to my mind.
I understand providing details for the uniformed, but what about the rest? Could it be that the prevailing attitude that was in The Way about correctness could be just as easily turned around to punish?
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mj412
sky4it
I do not think so.
it is an intenet forum .
at an ex-way site a simple discussion .
Im not punishing Im stating hwo I feel in the discussion .
oh yes they love to be considered victims in an attack on them and that is the twist many will play in their mind. they try to make it personal and a attack on them it takes the focus off the real questions people may have after hearing somone cause "division" in the body of christ!!! oo yeah that is bad and a heavy isnt it?
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sky4it
MJ:
I Know it man, I hear yah, just be careful that you arent just giving them the constant attention. It doesnt bother them man. I think they like it. Maybe were just dealing the deck that they want dealt. All I'm saying is that it will be fun to move on to something positive.
:)-->
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Eagle
It's been my experience that learning the Word from the Way International was like learning English from Yogi Berra.
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mj412
i DO NOT THINK IT BOTHERS THEM THEY TEND TO DISMISS AND oopps sorry
and ignore anyone or idea that doesnt fit with their idea of what is workable for them with a vengence.
who doesnt? this whole thing is passive aggresive really.
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satori001
Sky4it
Your concerns are often raised on this kind of thread. People will find what they're looking for, pro or con. Can't really control that, although I do my best. The dialog is the important thing.
"Move on to something more positive" is really a way of saying don't discuss anything negative, isn't it? Imagine how many verses would have to be removed if, upon your suggestion, God couldn't mention anything negative.
Regards...
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mj412
also sky4it
your right it might be fun . I agree . but habits are hard to break!
right? all kinds of them including taking about cults I appreciate your concern. thank you .
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dmiller
MJ -- actually, no. I was speaking of personal things that have happened to me in my life long before I ever met twi. Those things that occurred to me then, were what I was speaking of, but yea -- twi could be construed that way too.
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