I don't know, Belle. If VPW was so incompetent, why have thousands learned and retained for years a large portion of the teachings? Even today, there's a sizable portion of folks who retain Wierwille's teachings. To me, that's the mark of a good teacher, one to communicates the thoughts and ideas very well. Doesn't mean he's right on everything, but it means the retention and assimilation of the students was at a high level.
I agree with your contention about retention. However, some might call it indoctrination more than teaching. He did teach his doctrine, no doubt about it. The format though of exhausting repitition without objective consideration makes it of lower quality at best, imo.
Not picking a fight, just offering a different perspective without regard to whether one agrees with the doctrine or not.
"If VPW was so incompetent, why have thousands learned and retained for years a large portion of the teachings? Even today, there's a sizable portion of folks who retain Wierwille's teachings."
It's called brain washing. I didn't retain PFAL the first time. In fact, the first time was rather confusing and seemed to contradict itself. But afetr sitting thru it a thousdand times I had it memorized. Then in residence we would listen to teaching tapes at HIGH SPEED so we could get a 3 hour lecture in in an hour. Then we'd do it again. When we went out WOW we had to listen to the same tape every day.
These teachings weren't so riveting that I had them down. I had them down because I heard them over and over and over.
Having said that I think VP was more a slick talker than an effective teacher. And LCM was niether.
quote:I don't know, Belle. If VPW was so incompetent, why have thousands learned and retained for years a large portion of the teachings? Even today, there's a sizable portion of folks who retain Wierwille's teachings. To me, that's the mark of a good teacher, one to communicates the thoughts and ideas very well. Doesn't mean he's right on everything, but it means the retention and assimilation of the students was at a high level.
It says something about the teaching methods employed but absolutley nothing about the content of what was taught. I would say that Wierwille was an "effective" teacher but not necessarily a good one.
It's kinda like the brainwashing of America concerning the evils of cholesterol and saturated fats - and the goodness of hydrogenated vegetable oils and soy. Gain thier trust and present the lies long enough and folks will believe just about anything. Especially since it came from a "Doctor". Very effective.
I pretty much agree with everyone's points here and I'll add that I think VP was a very good ACTOR - not a very good teacher.
Just because people learn to recite memorized lessons does not mean that they've been taught.
Just because people have retained the teachings doesn't mean he was a good teacher, that could be attributed to many other variables, such as what Goey mentioned regarding the status of expert that was thrust in our face enough that we eventually believed it.
I don't know, Belle. If VPW was so incompetent, why have thousands learned and retained for years a large portion of the teachings? Even today, there's a sizable portion of folks who retain Wierwille's teachings.
A person sexually/physically abused as a child, will retain memories for years also.
quote:He's at best an incompetent teacher, and at worst he's also malicious or crazy. He is completely unworthy of any trust.
The thing is, at this point it doesn't matter whether he was trustworthy or not; what matters is the content of the teachings and whether it makes sense. A lot of PFAL still makes sense to me. Some of it doesn't.
I can't arbitrarily throw out what makes sense, just because Wierwille didn't live up to what he should have as a minister.
I learned that crafty people can use the Bible to convince good hearted people to be 'tools,' and if the 'tool' balks or protests their use, verses proving the authoritarian stance can be shown, with all indignation and sincerity. 'This is what the Word says...'
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CoolWaters
Wow! Belle! I got goosebumps! Especially that last paragraph...
Wow!
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oldiesman
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JustThinking
OM,
I agree with your contention about retention. However, some might call it indoctrination more than teaching. He did teach his doctrine, no doubt about it. The format though of exhausting repitition without objective consideration makes it of lower quality at best, imo.
Not picking a fight, just offering a different perspective without regard to whether one agrees with the doctrine or not.
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Georgio Jessio
"If VPW was so incompetent, why have thousands learned and retained for years a large portion of the teachings? Even today, there's a sizable portion of folks who retain Wierwille's teachings."
It's called brain washing. I didn't retain PFAL the first time. In fact, the first time was rather confusing and seemed to contradict itself. But afetr sitting thru it a thousdand times I had it memorized. Then in residence we would listen to teaching tapes at HIGH SPEED so we could get a 3 hour lecture in in an hour. Then we'd do it again. When we went out WOW we had to listen to the same tape every day.
These teachings weren't so riveting that I had them down. I had them down because I heard them over and over and over.
Having said that I think VP was more a slick talker than an effective teacher. And LCM was niether.
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Goey
It says something about the teaching methods employed but absolutley nothing about the content of what was taught. I would say that Wierwille was an "effective" teacher but not necessarily a good one.
It's kinda like the brainwashing of America concerning the evils of cholesterol and saturated fats - and the goodness of hydrogenated vegetable oils and soy. Gain thier trust and present the lies long enough and folks will believe just about anything. Especially since it came from a "Doctor". Very effective.
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What The Hay
This certainly doesn't speak very highly of those he plagarized from then does it?
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Belle
I pretty much agree with everyone's points here and I'll add that I think VP was a very good ACTOR - not a very good teacher.
Just because people learn to recite memorized lessons does not mean that they've been taught.
Just because people have retained the teachings doesn't mean he was a good teacher, that could be attributed to many other variables, such as what Goey mentioned regarding the status of expert that was thrust in our face enough that we eventually believed it.
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JustThinking
WTH,
Minor typo in the spelling of Syrus' name in your quote. It is Publius.
Another good one of his that applies here:
Maxim 305: "Powerful indeed is the empire of habit"
A lesson VP knew too well.
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excathedra
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dmiller
A person sexually/physically abused as a child, will retain memories for years also.
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excathedra
when you sit in a class 4 f'in million times, you tend to remember stuff
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oldiesman
I can't arbitrarily throw out what makes sense, just because Wierwille didn't live up to what he should have as a minister.
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What The Hay
JT... (FYI)
His name was Publilius Syrus. Publius was his later modified name, such as Christian--Chris.
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Bramble
I learned that crafty people can use the Bible to convince good hearted people to be 'tools,' and if the 'tool' balks or protests their use, verses proving the authoritarian stance can be shown, with all indignation and sincerity. 'This is what the Word says...'
It was very enlightening, and costly.
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JustThinking
WTH,
I didn't know that. Thank you.
JT
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