quote:Now, somone metioned that VP said that sex can sometimes be healing. Well, I do know for a fact that my wife "heals me" on a regular basis, and I am really thankful for that!
Jonny, bringing this back to the context of sexual abuse/harrassment, do you really think some old fart who used his mogness to coerce girls into sex was healing?
It could only be healing in the context of a loving relationship IMHO. VPW could lie to himself saying that he was loving them, but in all honesty I really believe he was only in it for himself and his own greedy lust.
What the entire group thinks and believes can be as varied as all the opinions on this site. TWI ONE is a general term and can mean many things to many people.
What Shroyer himself believes is a question best asked him personally.
When a respected professional is asked for an opinion, if he or she chooses to give it, the best one will usually be based on the most accurate and primary information source that professional has access to, whether the person is a physician, an attorney, an architect, a plumber, or whatever.
Every human being has a perfect right to his own opinion, based on whatever his or her personal reasons might be. However the quality of any opinion may vary.
If not based on your own first-hand experience with you personally asking Shroyer these specific pointed questions mentioned in my above posts for yourself, upon what, you may ask yourself, do you base your opinion?
Second-hand prejudicial information, suspicion, and/or supposition were the kinds of information used against many of us by TWI henchmen. It’s time we left that behind. If a person wants to cling to that, for whatever reason, it's their right. However, the value of a first hand experience and testimony is unquestionable.
I found that Shroyer is a man who does not shy away from these hard and pointed questions. You can ask him yourself. I took my time and spoke to him face to face, eyeball to eyeball, and believe I got the true measure of the man—for myself. You can do that, too, if you want.
If you can, what stops you? If you won’t, what are you afraid of?
Your experience may vary. My experience does not negate your right to your opinion, nor does your opinion negate my first hand experience.
If a person CAN ask, and doesn't, I have to wonder whether they really want a truthful answer to the question.
Perhaps getting at the truth first hand is not really that important to them after all?
Not worth the time and effort?
I can understand not wanting to be involved with any kind of group, and respect that completely.
I don't understand wanting to cast doubt on a person's motivations without investigating it yourself as far as you can take it. Especially when the person is willing to take on the hard questions.
quote:Now, somone metioned that VP said that sex can sometimes be healing. Well, I do know for a fact that my wife "heals me" on a regular basis, and I am really thankful for that!
thanks wayfer not. i appreciate that. seems people forget how the sicko taught how it was supposed to be healing. then in the same breath they talk about their spouse and a girl who got laid to get herself healed
quote: Jonny, bringing this back to the context of sexual abuse/harrassment, do you really think some old fart who used his mogness to coerce girls into sex was healing?
No I don't think that Wayfernot. He was only usiong women for his own pleasure. There ius no question about that.
The first part where you quoted me about what I said about my wife was just a flippant and silly statement for the sake of humor. I believe that sex is meant for people who love eachother, as you do.
But that other incident that I mentioned about the girl in my Corps was a little different, and I thought worth bringing up. For she really became such a fine and confident woman after that and it was her opinion and not mine, that her liberation came to her due to having "gotten laid". I was only soliciting other people's opinions ( particularly womens' opinions) here on this incident, and not projecting my own. I am sorry if this has been offensive to you.
When John S. was in Tampa a few years ago, I asked him the same questions about LCM & VP. He told me much of the same thing he told you.
He told me he didn't know about LCM until it was announced and didn't know about VP until after he left TWI. And as you stated - he also told me he wasn't considered "Corps" by LCM and therefore was not in the "inner circle".
I believed him - no reason not to. I wasn't a part of CFF and didn't intend to be a part of it - and I believe he knew that. I was at the meeting just to say hello to him and Mary Lou because I like them and it was nice to see them.
I never heard the teaching where he announced that adultary was wrong - but I don't doubt he said it.
I didn't post it before because it was a private conversation and I didn't feel quite right about it. I figured he'd had that question asked of him a hundred times, so I'm glad you shared what he had to say.
John Shroyer is a very nice man - salt of the earth type of guy. There's never been a time I didn't like him. But I'm like Exie -
If it looks like The Way, sounds like The Way, and feels like The Way then.... NO WAY for me! :P-->
I was not offended. I think the situation you mentioned of the girl who felt more confident as a result of getting laid is not common. I know several women who have spent their younger years getting laid to help themselves feel more confident, and end up feeling less and less because it's not the sex that is fulfilling them. It's the attention from a man that they are craving.
I also know a lot of younger girls end up having sex with every Tom, Dick, and Harry because they never had a real relationship with their own dads. It is important for a father to tell his daughter how special and beautiful she is. I really think that is lacking in our society. It could really make a difference in the confidence of young women.
I am particularly happy that this particular conversation has ocurred, because I happen to have a beautiful twenty year old daughter, who I have constantly reminded about how beautiful and special she is! She really is gorgeous, but, while she was in "the womb", she was accompanied by a twin, that never lived. The twin died off in the womb when they were four months old. And because of this, there was a side affect with our Meagan. As it turned out, Meagan was born with a "droopy eyelid". In reality, this is next to nothing when it comes to "twin death side effects", but, for a twenty year old young woman, this is not a small thing.During highschool, boys called her "hunch-eye" like as in "hunchback". Needless to say, I caught up with some of those little sonsabitches and read them the riot act, but it did take it's toll on her self worth...
But I have constantly affirmed over the years that it only adds to her beauty, and gives her a "sultry look" like Lauren Bacall always had. As a result, she has always had a wonderful case of confidence and belief that she is A-OK.She has a fine and handsome boyfriend at this time as a matter of fact. And, he LIKES TO WORK! Which of course is a plus....
But as a matter of fact, as a gift, I am going to pay for her to have some corrective surgery, which, a local surgeon assures me will be a "piece of cake" as far as restoring her eyelid is concerned... :)-->
I first learned of LCM at ROA 1986 when one of our fellow twigites had to take his finance for an abortion. She had been a running partner for LCM while in trainnig for Athletes. She was in-residence at HQ. It ended their plans to marry. I don't know what became of her but he is happily married and a father of 2.
at the advanced class my ex wife took at gunnison vp was there and while walking with him to the vip cabin he was fondling here foot and saying it's al right honey
i don't know if she went back that night or not as they separated men form women the entire 2 weeks!
I was at a limb gathering race weekend here in Indy in May of 1980. VPW was a big race fan. I was walking through the lobby and there was VPW. Conversation was short and I went back to my seat and said to my new hubby, "VPW is a leacherous old man." How did I know that? By the way he looked at me. Of course I was dismissed as VPW couldn't have thoughts like that.
My next clue this was a top down deal was when a girl on the PFAL team with me in 1982 was despondent over the now-defunct relationship with a corp guy. He had told her that now that they were brother and sister in Christ they couldn't continue sexually. I confronted the guy and was told that ANYTHING and any means was ok to bring someone to God.
From that point on I was pretty much emotionally gone. I didn't care what went on as long as I was left alone. It took a while to physically leave, but we quit going except when we wanted to.
They separated the men from the women???? Husbands and wives?? Why??? What happened to family coming before the ministry?
That makes no sense at all.
coolchef, I'm so sorry. Maybe he was just seeing how much he could get away with or just copping a feel, but didn't go any further with her. That had to be a rough 2 weeks.
They separated the men from the women???? Husbands and wives?? Why??? What happened to family coming before the ministry?
That makes no sense at all.
coolchef, I'm so sorry. Maybe he was just seeing how much he could get away with or just copping a feel, but didn't go any further with her. That had to be a rough 2 weeks.
yeah we were seperated for two weeks and in that time we celebrated our 10th anniversary!!!we did manage to sneak away for a while but i was worried about rattle snakes bitting our foot!!lol!!
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excathedra
okay then, what does CFF (or shroyer) think of wierwille and TWI "ONE" ?
if you're going to ask me to write shroyer, don't bother
i don't mean that badly, sorry it sounds like that. i figure you probably know what he or the group thinks since you know about CFF
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Nottawayfer
Jonny, bringing this back to the context of sexual abuse/harrassment, do you really think some old fart who used his mogness to coerce girls into sex was healing?
It could only be healing in the context of a loving relationship IMHO. VPW could lie to himself saying that he was loving them, but in all honesty I really believe he was only in it for himself and his own greedy lust.
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Catcup
What the entire group thinks and believes can be as varied as all the opinions on this site. TWI ONE is a general term and can mean many things to many people.
What Shroyer himself believes is a question best asked him personally.
When a respected professional is asked for an opinion, if he or she chooses to give it, the best one will usually be based on the most accurate and primary information source that professional has access to, whether the person is a physician, an attorney, an architect, a plumber, or whatever.
Every human being has a perfect right to his own opinion, based on whatever his or her personal reasons might be. However the quality of any opinion may vary.
If not based on your own first-hand experience with you personally asking Shroyer these specific pointed questions mentioned in my above posts for yourself, upon what, you may ask yourself, do you base your opinion?
Second-hand prejudicial information, suspicion, and/or supposition were the kinds of information used against many of us by TWI henchmen. It’s time we left that behind. If a person wants to cling to that, for whatever reason, it's their right. However, the value of a first hand experience and testimony is unquestionable.
I found that Shroyer is a man who does not shy away from these hard and pointed questions. You can ask him yourself. I took my time and spoke to him face to face, eyeball to eyeball, and believe I got the true measure of the man—for myself. You can do that, too, if you want.
If you can, what stops you? If you won’t, what are you afraid of?
Your experience may vary. My experience does not negate your right to your opinion, nor does your opinion negate my first hand experience.
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excathedra
i am not afraid of anything but thank you for your professional opinion
ps. i feel it's best to leave anything to do with wierwille behind. i know that's not the case with your offshoot
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Catcup
If a person CAN ask, and doesn't, I have to wonder whether they really want a truthful answer to the question.
Perhaps getting at the truth first hand is not really that important to them after all?
Not worth the time and effort?
I can understand not wanting to be involved with any kind of group, and respect that completely.
I don't understand wanting to cast doubt on a person's motivations without investigating it yourself as far as you can take it. Especially when the person is willing to take on the hard questions.
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excathedra
ps. from shroyers web site
i don't want to get into it, i'll just leave it alone, oki'm not not casting doubt on "motivations" just the organization
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Catcup
And that quote has something to do with Wierwille? With knowledge of and support of adultery? And the topic of this thread?
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excathedra
never mind, it makes sense to me, i don't wanna argue, really, at least not at the moment
:)-->
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Catcup
That's fine.
:)-->
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excathedra
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J0nny Ling0
No I don't think that Wayfernot. He was only usiong women for his own pleasure. There ius no question about that.
The first part where you quoted me about what I said about my wife was just a flippant and silly statement for the sake of humor. I believe that sex is meant for people who love eachother, as you do.
But that other incident that I mentioned about the girl in my Corps was a little different, and I thought worth bringing up. For she really became such a fine and confident woman after that and it was her opinion and not mine, that her liberation came to her due to having "gotten laid". I was only soliciting other people's opinions ( particularly womens' opinions) here on this incident, and not projecting my own. I am sorry if this has been offensive to you.
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Hope R.
Catcup -
When John S. was in Tampa a few years ago, I asked him the same questions about LCM & VP. He told me much of the same thing he told you.
He told me he didn't know about LCM until it was announced and didn't know about VP until after he left TWI. And as you stated - he also told me he wasn't considered "Corps" by LCM and therefore was not in the "inner circle".
I believed him - no reason not to. I wasn't a part of CFF and didn't intend to be a part of it - and I believe he knew that. I was at the meeting just to say hello to him and Mary Lou because I like them and it was nice to see them.
I never heard the teaching where he announced that adultary was wrong - but I don't doubt he said it.
I didn't post it before because it was a private conversation and I didn't feel quite right about it. I figured he'd had that question asked of him a hundred times, so I'm glad you shared what he had to say.
John Shroyer is a very nice man - salt of the earth type of guy. There's never been a time I didn't like him. But I'm like Exie -
If it looks like The Way, sounds like The Way, and feels like The Way then.... NO WAY for me!
:P-->
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excathedra
lingo, catcup, and whoever is reading
personally.... still just working through all this stuff that was so healing....
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Nottawayfer
Jonny,
I was not offended. I think the situation you mentioned of the girl who felt more confident as a result of getting laid is not common. I know several women who have spent their younger years getting laid to help themselves feel more confident, and end up feeling less and less because it's not the sex that is fulfilling them. It's the attention from a man that they are craving.
I also know a lot of younger girls end up having sex with every Tom, Dick, and Harry because they never had a real relationship with their own dads. It is important for a father to tell his daughter how special and beautiful she is. I really think that is lacking in our society. It could really make a difference in the confidence of young women.
Sorry to derail this thread....
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Nottawayfer
(((((Excathedra)))))
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J0nny Ling0
Well ya know WN,
I am particularly happy that this particular conversation has ocurred, because I happen to have a beautiful twenty year old daughter, who I have constantly reminded about how beautiful and special she is! She really is gorgeous, but, while she was in "the womb", she was accompanied by a twin, that never lived. The twin died off in the womb when they were four months old. And because of this, there was a side affect with our Meagan. As it turned out, Meagan was born with a "droopy eyelid". In reality, this is next to nothing when it comes to "twin death side effects", but, for a twenty year old young woman, this is not a small thing.During highschool, boys called her "hunch-eye" like as in "hunchback". Needless to say, I caught up with some of those little sonsabitches and read them the riot act, but it did take it's toll on her self worth...
But I have constantly affirmed over the years that it only adds to her beauty, and gives her a "sultry look" like Lauren Bacall always had. As a result, she has always had a wonderful case of confidence and belief that she is A-OK.She has a fine and handsome boyfriend at this time as a matter of fact. And, he LIKES TO WORK! Which of course is a plus....
But as a matter of fact, as a gift, I am going to pay for her to have some corrective surgery, which, a local surgeon assures me will be a "piece of cake" as far as restoring her eyelid is concerned...
:)-->
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Nottawayfer
Jonny, I just want to say that I can tell you are a great husband, father, and man. Your family is lucky to have you. And vice versa I'm sure.
;)-->
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MTgal
Back to the question --
I first learned of VPW at Waydale.
I first learned of LCM at ROA 1986 when one of our fellow twigites had to take his finance for an abortion. She had been a running partner for LCM while in trainnig for Athletes. She was in-residence at HQ. It ended their plans to marry. I don't know what became of her but he is happily married and a father of 2.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
at the advanced class my ex wife took at gunnison vp was there and while walking with him to the vip cabin he was fondling here foot and saying it's al right honey
i don't know if she went back that night or not as they separated men form women the entire 2 weeks!
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Tzaia
I was at a limb gathering race weekend here in Indy in May of 1980. VPW was a big race fan. I was walking through the lobby and there was VPW. Conversation was short and I went back to my seat and said to my new hubby, "VPW is a leacherous old man." How did I know that? By the way he looked at me. Of course I was dismissed as VPW couldn't have thoughts like that.
My next clue this was a top down deal was when a girl on the PFAL team with me in 1982 was despondent over the now-defunct relationship with a corp guy. He had told her that now that they were brother and sister in Christ they couldn't continue sexually. I confronted the guy and was told that ANYTHING and any means was ok to bring someone to God.
From that point on I was pretty much emotionally gone. I didn't care what went on as long as I was left alone. It took a while to physically leave, but we quit going except when we wanted to.
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Belle
They separated the men from the women???? Husbands and wives?? Why??? What happened to family coming before the ministry?
That makes no sense at all.
coolchef, I'm so sorry. Maybe he was just seeing how much he could get away with or just copping a feel, but didn't go any further with her. That had to be a rough 2 weeks.
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Belle
Tzaia,
Don't know if we've met. Welcome!
I've learned that women's intuition should be listened to. It's usually right. Good for you speaking up, too.
Looks like the gals weren't the only ones using sex to get people involved.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
yeah we were seperated for two weeks and in that time we celebrated our 10th anniversary!!!we did manage to sneak away for a while but i was worried about rattle snakes bitting our foot!!lol!!
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