Compassion. I really can't think at the moment of any other more inspiring and universal manifestion of God's/Goddess' presence in the world, than when any person of any religion or non-religion reaches out and helps another human being, no matter how seemingly great or small.
quote:or not chosen _________?
The bureaucrats at the DMV (lol).
Though I'm sure there some compassionate people work there as well. But generally not among the license photographers.
I have no desire to align myself with any religion which teaches exclusion...
***
This was a big part of what I found attractive with the beliefs I now hold. In all the confusing mishmash of beliefs, how could a loving God really expect people to find that one exclusive church or religion or doctrine, in the muddle of all the others? Really, none of them stood out as obviously the one and perfect way, to me.
Other people don't have to be wrong, in order to make your choice right for you--they are just different.
My understanding of love changed alot after I had children,too. Obeying commandments--while important to the Christain God,wasn't all that important to me. The disobedience of children did not change my feelings toward my kids at all, I loved them no matter what.
Also I had the example of my parents (who left the church when I was a teen.) I have a mentally ill sibling--very ill,unable to live a normal life even with meds, and I saw how they treated him, doing everything they could to give him some quality of life, which isn't easy to do. Love that demands began to look manipulative, to me.
Back in my TWI 'golden years' there was the teaching on auxano--growth from with in without compulsion. It was like a beautiful fairy tale, or Utopia or something-- lovely. Never saw it or experienced it, though. what I have now, I would call auxano, though most Christans would deny me that
Sympathy, empathy, compassion. The Chassidics would tell you compassion was the highest of them all. :)-->
Bramble,
I hear you, being a parent of a high needs child. It takes an incredible amount of patience and work to help these children grow into functioning adults (and some may never be able to, but in my son's case I know he can with the right help now).
And even with a child who doesn't have high needs, it requires much. I think if I can do for my children what I do, and put up with what I do (imperfectly though I may do it at times) how much moreso can God?
Obedience is important because it helps us function as a family better and it keeps us safe from harm. Obedience is not about how much one loves another nor does it necessarily even stem from love. Some of it stems from respect, but even the most respected parent will be tested by the child at least some of the time.
Disobedience isn't about not loving and it isn't even always about not respecting, nor does it always stem from a negative form of selfishness. It is the child's way of testing, learning cause and effect, establishing their own personality, and sometimes simply exercising their own will to see how strong it is or what things help them get their way.
Auxano, it comes with age, experience, love . . . so many ingredients combined together. It most certainly doesn't come from force. I think, as much as possible, keeping in mind safety, health issues, and how high the cost (consequences), etc. it is often better to let the kids learn from their own mistakes and successes, then they can own the outcome.
If we are made in His image, is this not also part of who He is?
just my own early morning ramblings as a drink some coffee and contemplate going back to sleep.
If there were a way (OK, method, idea, person) which was not exclusive...open to EVERYBODY...each one would still have to accept it to get it. Then, suddenly, those who did not would be excluded. Kind of a paradox.
Kind of, but not really. I can except those who reject it. I simply disagree with them on some things. That's ok, I disagree with most people on some suject or other.
I know death is a rather harsh reality to comprehend, but I think it wiser to come to terms with it, rather than adopting a superstition that tries to soften it's image.
The more I look at any religion, the more the glaring flaws in it's logic become evident. "God is love, God can do anything!" Oh yeah? So why did 20 or 30 thousand kids die of malnutrition yesterday? It would seem that God must be incompetent, uncaring, or oblivious. "No, no, no!" God LOVES us all SOOO much! You're just too stupid to understand how He works!" Yeah, O.K., fine. If spin-doctoring for the almighty is your cup of tea, indulge, by all means.
I've gotten to the point where the normal excuses for why a religion doesn't work only emphasize the extremes people will go to validate their "faith". Can you say "denial"? Sure, I knew you could...
"Well, if we apply our own standards and morals to what we think religion should be, of course we are going to see flaws."
Is that such a bad thing? Whose standard's should I apply, someone else's?
Sure I see flaws in religions. I see flaws in humans too, including myself. We are flawed are we not? We also have many wonderful traits, just as religions have things which are good as well.
I was simply sharing some thoughts and I was interested in how other people chose their religion/denomination or chose not to be part of a religion or denomination.
On a particularly revealing leg of my journey out of twi-think a question kept rattling around in my mind..."What if our brains are the greatest gift God gave us?"
TWI/vpw taught in piffle that the passage in Hosea about "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" is about people who are destroyed for a lack of biblical knowledge.
Really?
Hosea doesn't even imply that...
Anyway...
The result of that teaching was that many people, myself included, stopped plans for college and careers and gave over their lives to twi...to live a life of chosen ignorance...as is the case with many religious people...
And the result was, always has been, always will be...
Destruction of some form.
Because this teaching teaches people to stop thinking for themselves...hopefully to stop thinking at all...
Once that happens, people become little more than currency to be used at the whim of those who are thinking for themselves...and usually only of themselves.
So I try not to lock into any one particular form of thinking...not to choose or reject choosing...
Yes with 20/20 hindsight we were destroyed for lack of knowledge. TWI kept us in ignorance by only allowing us the knowledge that VPW et al wanted us to have.
Boy did we swallow his interpretation of Hosea hook line and sinker!
Trefor, yes, we did. That was a direct result of vpw always saying, "Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself." I learned in therapy that vpw doing that was a psychological trick to make himself seem trustworthy to us...so we would take his word for it...
I know death is a rather harsh reality to comprehend, but I think it wiser to come to terms with it, rather than adopting a superstition that tries to soften it's image.
The more I look at any religion, the more the glaring flaws in it's logic become evident. "God is love, God can do anything!" Oh yeah? So why did 20 or 30 thousand kids die of malnutrition yesterday? It would seem that God must be incompetent, uncaring, or oblivious. "No, no, no!" God LOVES us all SOOO much! You're just too stupid to understand how He works!" Yeah, O.K., fine. If spin-doctoring for the almighty is your cup of tea, indulge, by all means.
I've gotten to the point where the normal excuses for why a religion _doesn't_ work only emphasize the extremes people will go to validate their "faith". Can you say "denial"? Sure, I knew you could...
Hey George,
Since your so fired up for this malnutrition cause, maybe its God who is planting the seed of action in you to take care of it. Beats bitching about the world, doesn't it?
In other words, you have made up your own religion with yourself as "God", knowing what is true and what is not.
It's a "salad bar" religion--I'll accept this belief, but not that one. I'll accept this and this, but not that. I'll pick the beliefs I like and accept them as truth. The ones that dont sit well with me--I will not accept as truth.
In other words, you have made up your own religion with yourself as "God", knowing what is true and what is not.
It's a "salad bar" religion--I'll accept this belief, but not that one. I'll accept this and this, but not that. I'll pick the beliefs I like and accept them as truth. The ones that dont sit well with me--I will not accept as truth.
From whom did you acquire this authority?
Well Chwebster, if there is a God, you could say that God did.
In fact, not being able to prove one religion any better than another, we all do exactly that, chose the one that works for us or fits us best. You do it. I do it. Everybody does it. Unless of course you have studied every possible religion as much as you have Christianity and have coem to some sort of hidden truth and proof in the Bible...then maybe you don't.
On the surface, all religions look equally wrong and right. In reality they are just that. But it takes the Believer to go and find the real truth within each religion. Am I wrong? Without believing (faith) in Christianity can I ever know its truth and power? The same is true for the rest of religion. You must believe that it is true in order to "see" that it is true. Quite the paradox.
We would be idiots to choose the moldy tomatoes at the salad bar. Everyone must use thier head and not just believe the sign "fresh tomatoes". On the other hand, if you are French, maybe you prefer the mold. Yum!
If there isn't a god...well you don't exactly need authority to use your brain. It's a package deal with most people.
"In other words, you have made up your own religion with yourself as "God", knowing what is true and what is not."
Something like that yes. I know what is true for me and what works for my life.
"It's a "salad bar" religion--I'll accept this belief, but not that one. I'll accept this and this, but not that. I'll pick the beliefs I like and accept them as truth. The ones that dont sit well with me--I will not accept as truth. "
Isn't it great to be free!!
"From whom did you acquire this authority? "
Oh, was I supposed to ask for someone's permission? Gee, here I thought I was all grown up with free will and all, and didn't have to do that anymore.
I enjoy good salad bars. They almost persuadest me to become a vegetarian. But in the words of another poster here (please forgive me, I can't recall who at the moment), some selectively sliced and ground "sacred cows" can yield some very tasty burgers. But I prefer to cook my own burgers upon my own stone,fire alter - often turning out much tastier and more nutritious than the homogenous stuff prepared at McChurches or Bible Kings.
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TheInvisibleDan
Compassion. I really can't think at the moment of any other more inspiring and universal manifestion of God's/Goddess' presence in the world, than when any person of any religion or non-religion reaches out and helps another human being, no matter how seemingly great or small.
The bureaucrats at the DMV (lol).
Though I'm sure there some compassionate people work there as well. But generally not among the license photographers.
Danny
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Bramble
This is a Bramble ramble:
Abigail Quote:
I have no desire to align myself with any religion which teaches exclusion...
***
This was a big part of what I found attractive with the beliefs I now hold. In all the confusing mishmash of beliefs, how could a loving God really expect people to find that one exclusive church or religion or doctrine, in the muddle of all the others? Really, none of them stood out as obviously the one and perfect way, to me.
Other people don't have to be wrong, in order to make your choice right for you--they are just different.
My understanding of love changed alot after I had children,too. Obeying commandments--while important to the Christain God,wasn't all that important to me. The disobedience of children did not change my feelings toward my kids at all, I loved them no matter what.
Also I had the example of my parents (who left the church when I was a teen.) I have a mentally ill sibling--very ill,unable to live a normal life even with meds, and I saw how they treated him, doing everything they could to give him some quality of life, which isn't easy to do. Love that demands began to look manipulative, to me.
Back in my TWI 'golden years' there was the teaching on auxano--growth from with in without compulsion. It was like a beautiful fairy tale, or Utopia or something-- lovely. Never saw it or experienced it, though. what I have now, I would call auxano, though most Christans would deny me that
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Abigail
Dan,
Sympathy, empathy, compassion. The Chassidics would tell you compassion was the highest of them all.
:)-->
Bramble,
I hear you, being a parent of a high needs child. It takes an incredible amount of patience and work to help these children grow into functioning adults (and some may never be able to, but in my son's case I know he can with the right help now).
And even with a child who doesn't have high needs, it requires much. I think if I can do for my children what I do, and put up with what I do (imperfectly though I may do it at times) how much moreso can God?
Obedience is important because it helps us function as a family better and it keeps us safe from harm. Obedience is not about how much one loves another nor does it necessarily even stem from love. Some of it stems from respect, but even the most respected parent will be tested by the child at least some of the time.
Disobedience isn't about not loving and it isn't even always about not respecting, nor does it always stem from a negative form of selfishness. It is the child's way of testing, learning cause and effect, establishing their own personality, and sometimes simply exercising their own will to see how strong it is or what things help them get their way.
Auxano, it comes with age, experience, love . . . so many ingredients combined together. It most certainly doesn't come from force. I think, as much as possible, keeping in mind safety, health issues, and how high the cost (consequences), etc. it is often better to let the kids learn from their own mistakes and successes, then they can own the outcome.
If we are made in His image, is this not also part of who He is?
just my own early morning ramblings as a drink some coffee and contemplate going back to sleep.
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Lifted Up
If there were a way (OK, method, idea, person) which was not exclusive...open to EVERYBODY...each one would still have to accept it to get it. Then, suddenly, those who did not would be excluded. Kind of a paradox.
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Abigail
Kind of, but not really. I can except those who reject it. I simply disagree with them on some things. That's ok, I disagree with most people on some suject or other.
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George Aar
I just prefer not to bull$hit myself anymore.
I know death is a rather harsh reality to comprehend, but I think it wiser to come to terms with it, rather than adopting a superstition that tries to soften it's image.
The more I look at any religion, the more the glaring flaws in it's logic become evident. "God is love, God can do anything!" Oh yeah? So why did 20 or 30 thousand kids die of malnutrition yesterday? It would seem that God must be incompetent, uncaring, or oblivious. "No, no, no!" God LOVES us all SOOO much! You're just too stupid to understand how He works!" Yeah, O.K., fine. If spin-doctoring for the almighty is your cup of tea, indulge, by all means.
I've gotten to the point where the normal excuses for why a religion doesn't work only emphasize the extremes people will go to validate their "faith". Can you say "denial"? Sure, I knew you could...
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Lifted Up
Well, if we apply our own standards and morals to what we think religion should be, of course we are going to see flaws.
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Abigail
"Well, if we apply our own standards and morals to what we think religion should be, of course we are going to see flaws."
Is that such a bad thing? Whose standard's should I apply, someone else's?
Sure I see flaws in religions. I see flaws in humans too, including myself. We are flawed are we not? We also have many wonderful traits, just as religions have things which are good as well.
I was simply sharing some thoughts and I was interested in how other people chose their religion/denomination or chose not to be part of a religion or denomination.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I choose Rok N Roll
I choose to believe the god of my understanding and if anyone has an objection, then its to the unknown god of all.
Dig your thoughts abi...
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CoolWaters
On a particularly revealing leg of my journey out of twi-think a question kept rattling around in my mind..."What if our brains are the greatest gift God gave us?"
TWI/vpw taught in piffle that the passage in Hosea about "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" is about people who are destroyed for a lack of biblical knowledge.
Really?
Hosea doesn't even imply that...
Anyway...
The result of that teaching was that many people, myself included, stopped plans for college and careers and gave over their lives to twi...to live a life of chosen ignorance...as is the case with many religious people...
And the result was, always has been, always will be...
Destruction of some form.
Because this teaching teaches people to stop thinking for themselves...hopefully to stop thinking at all...
Once that happens, people become little more than currency to be used at the whim of those who are thinking for themselves...and usually only of themselves.
So I try not to lock into any one particular form of thinking...not to choose or reject choosing...
But to think.
Does that answer the question at all?
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Abigail
yes it does.
:)-->
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lindyhopper
nicely put, C dubya.
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Trefor Heywood
Yes with 20/20 hindsight we were destroyed for lack of knowledge. TWI kept us in ignorance by only allowing us the knowledge that VPW et al wanted us to have.
Boy did we swallow his interpretation of Hosea hook line and sinker!
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CoolWaters
TYVM, Lindy!
:D-->
Trefor, yes, we did. That was a direct result of vpw always saying, "Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself." I learned in therapy that vpw doing that was a psychological trick to make himself seem trustworthy to us...so we would take his word for it...
A cult by any other name...
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CoolWaters
Geeze...it seems like I'm not seeing much these days until after I should have seen things...
Anyway, Abigail...
:D--> ...this is a great thread!
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year2027
God first
Hi All
Why God because I feel his love for me
with love Roy
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Trefor Heywood
Yes CW - not taking his word for it would have been challenging the MOGFOT who heard the voice of God and saw the snow falling on the gas pumps.
A very very difficult thing for the poor simple lowly believer to have done.
He knew that and took advantage of it.
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def59
Hey George,
Since your so fired up for this malnutrition cause, maybe its God who is planting the seed of action in you to take care of it. Beats bitching about the world, doesn't it?
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
There are few things that beat bitching about the world, Def.
:D-->
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chwester
Abigail--
In other words, you have made up your own religion with yourself as "God", knowing what is true and what is not.
It's a "salad bar" religion--I'll accept this belief, but not that one. I'll accept this and this, but not that. I'll pick the beliefs I like and accept them as truth. The ones that dont sit well with me--I will not accept as truth.
From whom did you acquire this authority?
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lindyhopper
Well Chwebster, if there is a God, you could say that God did.
In fact, not being able to prove one religion any better than another, we all do exactly that, chose the one that works for us or fits us best. You do it. I do it. Everybody does it. Unless of course you have studied every possible religion as much as you have Christianity and have coem to some sort of hidden truth and proof in the Bible...then maybe you don't.
On the surface, all religions look equally wrong and right. In reality they are just that. But it takes the Believer to go and find the real truth within each religion. Am I wrong? Without believing (faith) in Christianity can I ever know its truth and power? The same is true for the rest of religion. You must believe that it is true in order to "see" that it is true. Quite the paradox.
We would be idiots to choose the moldy tomatoes at the salad bar. Everyone must use thier head and not just believe the sign "fresh tomatoes". On the other hand, if you are French, maybe you prefer the mold. Yum!
If there isn't a god...well you don't exactly need authority to use your brain. It's a package deal with most people.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
space for rent
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Abigail
"In other words, you have made up your own religion with yourself as "God", knowing what is true and what is not."
Something like that yes. I know what is true for me and what works for my life.
"It's a "salad bar" religion--I'll accept this belief, but not that one. I'll accept this and this, but not that. I'll pick the beliefs I like and accept them as truth. The ones that dont sit well with me--I will not accept as truth. "
Isn't it great to be free!!
"From whom did you acquire this authority? "
Oh, was I supposed to ask for someone's permission? Gee, here I thought I was all grown up with free will and all, and didn't have to do that anymore.
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TheInvisibleDan
I enjoy good salad bars. They almost persuadest me to become a vegetarian. But in the words of another poster here (please forgive me, I can't recall who at the moment), some selectively sliced and ground "sacred cows" can yield some very tasty burgers. But I prefer to cook my own burgers upon my own stone,fire alter - often turning out much tastier and more nutritious than the homogenous stuff prepared at McChurches or Bible Kings.
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