Def, in looking over your post relayed from Fairchild. Are you quoting me correctly? With regard to genea I said as follows:
quote:
First I notice definitions 1 and 2 which are related, a lifetime, an age or generation. There is actually another Greek word that describes this better. It is the Greek word "genea". This is Strong's number 1074 and refers to an age in the context of the generation of men as part of a family. We get our word genealogy from this.
My understanding above was based on the Thayer's definition below. Please note definition 4 below - an age...the space of from 30-33 years.
This man makes a big deal and says that there are a number of different contextual definitions for various Greek words. Then he completely contradicts himself by limiting the definition of genea and complains that my definition was wrong even though it is plainly based on the Thayer's definition below. This is nothing more than tit for tat on Fairchild's part. Then he proceeds to ignore the main point of my post that his definition of aion as forever is contradicted by, not just by a few, but a number of New Testament usages.
Def, are you sure you are quoting me correctly to Mr. Fairchild? For now I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that some where the message has been distorted. But let me tell you this. I have followed this thread from its outset and am very familiar with the content of this debate. If Mr. Fairchild is not familiar with this thread and what has been actually written he is not going to fair well in a debate such as this. But by all means, as with others, I welcome his input.
NT:1074
genea, geneas, hee
1. a begetting, birth, nativity
2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
a. properly, the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matt 1:17
b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character Matt 17:17
3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matt 24:34
4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years Acts 14:16
The scriptural reference for the above usage is as follows:
Acts 14:16
16 Who in times (genea, Strong's # 1074) past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
KJV
In adding this reference and showing the specific usage from the scriptures that shows Thayer's contextual definition 4 above I hope to set a good example for others to also follow.
Hello again Def. Def, I don't mean to rub this in, but your bible scholar did exactly what I said he was going to do. He broke his own rule of interpretation and this forum plainly shows this. His rule was that,
quote:
Words have various meanings in various contexts.
I never argued with him on this point. In fact, I have noticed this myself at times as I did recently with the Greek word "genea", Strong's number 1074. When I did this Mr. Fairchild, who you apparently esteem because of his theology background, criticized me in error. I had in fact followed the above stated rule of word interpretation. Hopefully, Mr. Fairchild was unaware of this because of an oversight on his part or because he was distracted from taking the time to look up this word in a lexicon before his criticism.
However, Mr. Fairchild may have a more serious problem. That of being a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). He should have welcomed my application of his above stated rule and embraced it, but unfortunately for him he did not. I sure hope that he does not think that only he can follow the principles of studious biblicial interpretation and that others with a different doctrinal view point from his own can not. This reminds me. When one says that Greek words can have different meanings depending on the context one should not do this for the purpose of adding bias or traditions of men to biblical interpretation. This is not honest and is handling the word of God deceitfully whether one realizes this or not.
I welcome all posters to this subject forum. However, if I would have made the above explained mistake that Professor Fairchild made recently, I would have come clean by now and admitted my mistake on this forum. I want to give professor Fairchild the opportunity to do this so Def will you please copy and paste this post to an e-mail and send it to him. I would hate to think that ones religious standing would stand in the way of genuine spiritual fruit in ones lifestyle. And I want to remind us of Galations 6:1.
6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
NIV
I also would like to extend an invitation to Mark Fairchild to post directly on this web site forum. And Def I want to thank you again for starting this thread. We may disagree on this subject, but I recognize that without your input here I would not have posted as much material on this subject as I have. Again thank you for posting what you have. It has motivated me to post a great deal on this subject that I otherwise would not have. And with that in mind as previously promised below is an article on the subject of the Jubilee.
The Law of Jubilee
By Dr. Stephen E. Jones
Even as Jesus Christ is the central Person of all history, the law of Jubilee is the most fundamental law of all creation. The law of Jubilee is the basis of forgiveness and grace. It is the purpose and goal of the law itself. It compels a climax of earth history and a full end of the dominion of darkness and sin. The basic law of Jubilee is recorded in Leviticus 25:8-13.
8 You are also to count off seven Sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven Sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land. 10 You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
When Israel conquered the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua, he divided the land among all the families in Israel. This was their inheritance in the land, and no one (other than God Himself) could lawfully deprive them of their inheritance. However, if drought struck the land, or some other type of disaster, the families might lose their land. They would sell the land to someone else until the year of Jubilee.
The value of the land was measured in terms of its ability to produce barley, and an “omer” of barley (about eight bushels) had a fixed value of fifty shekels (about thirteen ounces) of silver (Leviticus 27:16). In selling land the buyer was to pay a fair price according to the amount of barley the land could normally produce from the present time to the year of Jubilee. Of course, they could not count the Sabbath years, when the land was to rest and could not produce a crop.
When the fair price had been calculated, the sale was made, and the new owners began to farm the property. The previous owners generally found employment on another estate, unless they were hired to work their own land as laborers for the new owner. It was the right of the original land inheritor to redeem his land at any time if he was able to do so. With each passing year the redemption price of the land was decreased proportionately, because, as we said, the land was not valued as land per se but in terms of its harvests. This eliminated any land speculation.
The law of God forbade the outright sale of one’s land inheritance, because the land belongs to God. All land sales were temporary. Today we would call them leases. Leviticus 25:23-28 says,
23 The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me. 24 Thus for every piece of your property, you are to provide for the redemption of the land. 25 If a fellow countryman of yours becomes so poor he has to sell part of his property, then his nearest kinsman is to come and buy back what his relative has sold. 26 Or in case a man has no kinsman, but so recovers his means as to find sufficient for its redemption, 27 then he shall calculate the years since its sale and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it, and so return to his property. 28 But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of Jubilee; but at the Jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property.
No man could permanently lose his land inheritance through debt. At the Jubilee, the land would revert back to him, and any remaining debts were to be cancelled.
The Lawful Right of Redemption
Verse 25 above says also that it was the will of God that the debtor’s nearest kinsman should redeem his brother when possible. In fact, the law specifically states in the NASV that “his nearest kinsman IS TO COME AND BUY BACK what his relative has sold.” We know that the law is not only a moral document, but is also prophetic, because this is the law that Jesus performed perfectly. It was therefore prophesying that Jesus Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, would come to buy back everything that was sold when Adam sinned. The Scriptures cannot be broken. If the redeemer has the power to redeem, the law says he is commanded by the will of the Father in heaven to redeem what his brother has lost.
We are His brethren. Therefore, the law demands that Jesus Christ redeem all that was lost in Adam. The only relevant question is whether or not Jesus Christ really did this or not. I believe He did, for the blood has never lost its power, nor did Jesus fail in any point of law to do all that the Father asked of Him. The law was fully satisfied.
The law of redemption was closely tied to the law of Jubilee. Essentially, redemption of the inheritance was always possible prior to the year of Jubilee. If the debtor somehow could scrape together enough money to redeem himself, he always had the lawful right to do so. A near kinsman also had the lawful right to redeem the debtor at any time. We read in Leviticus 25:47-55.
47 Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold himself to him up to the year of Jubilee; and the price of his sale shall correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that he shall be with him. 51 If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption; 52 and if few years remain until the year of Jubilee, he shall so calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount for his redemption. 53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight. 54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him. 55 For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
It is important to understand the law of redemption, because it has everything to do with God’s plan for the redemption of both Israel and the world. A friend does not have the right of redemption; only a near kinsman does. This means that if a man sells himself and his family to work for another man, his friend may redeem him—but only if the master allows it. The friend does not have the RIGHT of redemption. Instead, the master has the right to keep the new bondservant in his employ. But if a near kinsman decides to redeem the debtor, the master has no choice in the matter, for the kinsman has the right of redemption.
Jesus came to earth to redeem His people (Luke 1:68). He did not come in the form of an angel, but was born a man, specifically of the seed of Abraham. He did this in order to have the lawful right of redemption. If He had come as an angel, the divine law would have ruled that He was only a FRIEND of sinners, whose sin had given them a debt they could not pay, men who had lost their inheritance through Adam’s sin.
Jesus was indeed a friend of sinners, but He chose to be more than that. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for Israel, He had to be more than a mere friend. He had to be born of the seed of Abraham. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for all mankind, He had to be more than an angelic friend. He had to be born of flesh and blood. He qualified on both counts, as we read in Hebrews 2:11-17.
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying [in Psalm 22:22], "I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren, In the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise." 13 And again [in 2 Samuel 22:3], "I will put My trust in Him." And again [in Isaiah 8:18], "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." 14 Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
We conclude, then, that Jesus Christ was born of flesh and blood in order to have the lawful right of redemption of the whole world. He was likewise born specifically of the seed of Abraham in order to have the lawful right of redemption for the House of Israel. These are separate promises, but they are based upon the same law of redemption. Israel was to be redeemed from the hand of her enemies (Assyria) and would ultimately return to God. The world of flesh and blood, by the same law, will also be redeemed from the final and ultimate enemy—death—for death does not hold the right of redemption and has no choice but to turn every captive loose at Jesus Christ’s demand.
The Redeemed Serve a New Master
In the law of redemption, the redeemed bondservant does not have the lawful right to be his own boss or the master of his own destiny. As we quoted earlier in Leviticus 25:53,
53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight.
A redeemer is one who pays the price of redemption for the bondservant. In essence, he buys the bondservant from the master, who is a “stranger,” or foreigner, and who is likely to abuse the man and oppress him. The near kinsman is commanded to redeem his brother on the grounds that he will treat the bondservant in a lawful manner with kindness and consideration. This means that the bondservant merely changes masters. Redemption does NOT mean the bondservant is now free to do his own will. The Apostle Paul discusses this point of law in Romans 6, the chapter where he discusses the supposed right of the redeemed Christian to continue in sin that grace may increase.
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . . 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Paul’s discussion here is based upon the law of redemption. The redeemed bondservant is bound by the divine law to serve the redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer, who bought us with His blood, and for this reason, as Paul says, we have been “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (vs. 22). That is, sin is no longer our master, but we now have God as our Master. That means we are now accountable to His law and are expected to be obedient to Him. John says that “sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). John also says in 1 John 2:3 and 4,
3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
John is not saying that the law is the basis of our salvation. He is saying that our obedience is the outward EVIDENCE that we are saved, for if we claim to be redeemed, but refuse to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, we do not really know Him. “By this we know.” The lawless Christian is violating the law of redemption. For this reason, Jesus says of such people in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."
Lawless Christians will not lose their salvation ultimately. They will be “saved, yet so as through fire,” as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:15. And, of course, if a man merely professes to be a believer but is not really a Christian at all—God judges the heart—then such a man will be thrown into the lake of fire for a longer and more extensive kind of purification. Those unbelievers, however, will finally be set free at the great Jubilee at the end of time, for we read in Leviticus 25:54,
54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.
What a glorious promise! The Jubilee is the law of grace. No matter how far a man goes into debt, the Jubilee will set him free. Even if no kinsman redeems him, there is a day coming when he will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. This is why all of creation is awaiting this day. Romans 8:19-25 says,
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
The law of Jubilee mandates the setting free of all creation at some point in history. Personally, I believe this will come after 49,000 years of history. The lowest level of Jubilee came after 49 years (Lev. 25:8). The trumpet for the Jubilee was blown on the Day of Atonement, which was ten days into the fiftieth year (Leviticus 25:9).
In prophetic history we see higher-level Jubilees, such as Daniel’s seventy weeks (of years), which is actually ten Jubilee cycles, or 490 years. Jesus set us free on the Cross at the end of Daniel’s seventy weeks in 33 AD. (See our book, Secrets of Time, chapter 9.)
The forty-Jubilee cycle of 1,960 years is also important, as is the fifty-Jubilee cycle of 2,450 years. These subjects are covered extensively in Secrets of Time, but are beyond the scope of this book. Yet the final Creation’s Jubilee, I believe, is 49,000 years. I cannot prove this, of course, nor is it critical to do so. It is sufficient to know that the law of God demands limits on how long a debtor can be enslaved, or how long a sinner can be in bondage to his sin.
All creation waits in anticipation of this Jubilee. It is the goal of history and the ultimate purpose of God. The law of Jubilee on every level obtains its power by the blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, as we read in 1 John 2:1 and 2,
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
All Land Belongs to God
The law of Jubilee depends upon a deeper law, which we quoted earlier. It is found in Leviticus 25:23, where God says, "the land is mine." For this reason, it could not be sold permanently, but always had to revert back to the original owners at the year of Jubilee. Adam was made of the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7). Man was a part of God's creation and land inheritance. God's intent was to build a house for Himself in earth, and that house is man himself.
Because man is a created being, he does not own himself. God owns all that He has created. All the land belongs to God. It is true that man has been given a level of authority, but man does not have ultimate sovereignty over his "land," that is, himself. For this reason, man has been given the right to sell his land temporarily. He may sell himself into sin for a while, even for a lifetime. But he has never been given the right to sell his land for all time. His land will always have to revert back to God at the Jubilee.
In other words, no man can be so great a sinner that he cannot be set free at the year of Jubilee. No man can go so far into debt that he cannot be set free in the year of Jubilee. No man has either the authority or the ability to incur a debt that is greater than the year of Jubilee can remedy. This is the law of God, not man's law.
When man sinned, the "land" was sold. That is, Adam and his children and his entire estate were sold into sin. In essence, God lost His inheritance in the earth. It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem His lost inheritance. He came as a near Kinsman in order to secure the RIGHT of redemption. By His own blood, He paid the full price of the sin of the entire world from Adam to the end of time. The only question remaining is whether Jesus Christ loves the world enough to actually take advantage of His legal rights.
The answer is found in John 3:16, "God so loved the world. . ." The real question is this: If Jesus Christ had the power to save all men, would He do so? Of course He would, because He loves all that He created. Well, Jesus does have the power and the wisdom to save all men. His blood--the payment for the sin of the world--is worth far more than the sin-debt of all mankind put together. More than that, the law is on His side, because He has the right of redemption. That means He can redeem all if He wants to do so.
Suppose you, dear reader, had a family of loved ones who had been sold into slavery. If you came, having the legal right of redemption and paid the full price of their redemption, would you be satisfied if the slave master accepted your money, but then gave you only one or two of them? Of course not. If you truly loved them, you would demand all that you paid for. But even if your loved ones refused to be redeemed, this could only delay the process until the year of Jubilee. Remember Leviticus 25:54,
54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.
Though the rulers of men and nations have consistently refused to declare a Jubilee over its people, God is not a man that He should lie. He will always follow His own law, regardless of the refusal of men to be obedient.
The Judgment of God in the Final Age
The law of God demands the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). The divine judgments of God are not eternal, as men define eternal. They are aionian, as the Greek text says. They pertain only to an eon (aion), or an age. The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 is the same as the "fiery stream" mentioned in Daniel 7:9-11. Daniel tells us that the fire comes from God's throne. A throne is an ancient symbol of law. When a king sits upon a throne, he is officially administering the law or its judgments. God is the King of Creation, and He judges all according to His law. Therefore, the fire is the divine law, as Moses tells us in Deuteronomy 33:2,
2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
The "fire" of the divine law judges no man for any crime by sentencing them to burn in a literal fire. All sin is reckoned as a debt that is owed to the victims of injustice. If the sinner cannot pay the restitution, he is to be a bondservant until the debt is paid. The believers will rule over them. That is, the believers will be given authority over the sinners (debtors), and be responsible to teach them the righteousness and character of God. For this reason, the prophet tells us in Isaiah 26:9,
9 . . . For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
This is the "fire" of the divine law. It is not torture or punishment; it is justice. God's judgments are corrective in nature. With God, there is no endless punishment without mercy. Judgment always ends in grace, for that is the law of Jubilee.
Regardless of the precise nature of God's judgment upon sinners in that age, we know from the law of Jubilee that God's judgments are age-abiding, not everlasting, as some have translated the Greek word, aionian. Proper translations of this term are found in Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible. They understand aionian in the same way that the early Church fathers did, for their writings often spoke of the judgments to come as being temporary and limited to an age.
The law of Jubilee demands an end to all liability for sin (debt) at some point in the future. The law of Jubilee demands that all debts be cancelled at the end of that final age. Then all creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
The Restoration of All Things
When God restores all things, then will Jesus' words be fulfilled in John 12:32, 33,
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
Likewise, the words of the Apostle Paul will be fulfilled in 1Corinthians 15:22-28,
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order . . . . 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
Even as in Adam all mankind died, so also in Christ, the Second Adam, all mankind will be made alive--but not all at once. Some will come into life in the first resurrection, others at the general resurrection, but all others at the great Jubilee of creation. Paul speaks of this day also in Colossians 1:16-20,
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. . . 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Through the Logos, the Word, Jesus Christ, all things were created (John 1:3), and through Him, all things will be reconciled to Himself. There will be nothing left outside of His dominion in the end, as we read in Hebrews 2:8 and 9,
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. "For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
In this manner He "is the Savior of all men, especially of believers," as the Apostle Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:10. Those who are saved before the creation Jubilee are indeed greatly blessed and will rule in His Kingdom. Yet in the end He is also the Savior of ALL men, not just of the believers. For this reason, all creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19-21), knowing that these sons are but the firstfruits of creation (James 1:18). Paul says that the firstfruits sanctify the whole harvest. After the firstfruits were given to God, this signaled the beginning of the general harvest of the whole field. The field is the world (Matthew 13:39).
So also John sees all of creation rejoicing in the end. Revelation 5 says,
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
This will never happen apart from the law of Jubilee, for most of creation yet remains in enmity against God. They are the ones in need of the Jubilee, for, unlike true believers, they do not take advantage of the law of redemption. The time of redemption ends with the Jubilee. And so we urge all those who hear the Word of God to believe in Jesus Christ and learn what great salvation He has given to men. Our message is that of the Apostle Paul, which he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5,
17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them [the world], and He has committed to us [Christians] the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
We have been given the ministry of reconciliation with a message of good news to give the world. It is NOT the bad news of eternal torment or damnation, but the good news that God has reconciled the world through Christ, who has paid the price for their deliverance and salvation. This is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, who was lifted up on the cross, and therefore will draw ALL MEN unto Himself. This is not wishful thinking. It is prophecy. It is a statement of intent. It is His promise to us and to the world. Let us all rejoice in this good news of God's grace.
God's Kingdom Ministries
6201 University Ave. N.E.
Fridley, Minnesota 55432
(USA)
For further study on the Biblical concept of the restoration of all things, write to us at the above address for the 154-page book by Dr. Stephen E. Jones, Creation's Jubilee.
I wish you and Chuck would understand something. I don't preach hellfire and brimstone. I preach the Good News. I preach of a saving, loving lord who gave his life for the world.
I believe in a literal hell, however, because first the Lord talked about it. Second, because Jesus said it exists (Lazarus and the Rich Man) and I see it as a place where those who willingly reject God and Christ and the Holy Spirit will go someday.
Because under your theology, we will be robots, devoid of any passion or emotion or joy. People who have fought against God their whole lives, will be forced to believe? What kind of love is that? To me that is cruel.
You live under the misconception that life is fair, that God is fair.
Was it fair for the 70,000 men to die when David sinned?
Was it fair for the people of the earth to die in the flood and only 8 to survive?
Was it fair that Gentiles had to be circumsized to become part of Israel and the promised land, when Moses never got there?
God justice demands that people pay for their sin. And by rejecting the eternal glory, they must pay for eternity.
Nice to see you check in at this thread. There seems to now be interest in Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Here it is below. One should understand that this parable was addressed to the pharisees who likely already believed in punishment and torment for the law breakers and wicked. Of course, they would never consider themselves to be evil even though Jesus said they were on more than a few occasions. If you follow the parable you might find that Jesus was simply convicting the pharisees by their own religious standards. I will have more to say on this parable later, but for now please read it.
Luke 16:14-31
14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He (Jesus) said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'
i think this says a lot of what the point is
Moses said some cool things, and the Prophets many of whom we have never heard I believe.
Numbers 11:24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. 25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. 27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. 28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
prophets are still around...some don't listen-some do...
it takes reflection on the words, considering them,
that's all, believing will come, it'll fit...fall into place,
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us
I don't have time today to offer my own commentary on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. However, for your edification and reading enjoyment I offer the brief commentary below.
From Stephen Jones' book "Creation's Jubilee".
Appendix 5
The Rich Man and Lazarus
The Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is one of the prime texts used to teach the doctrine of eternal torment. We have, in effect answered this assertion quite thoroughly in the general course of our study, but we offer this brief look at this parable as a supplement.
We must first recognize this to be a parable, rather than a literal story. It follows the same general pattern of Jesus’ other parables of the Kingdom. The rich man is the villain, representing (as usual) the Scribes and Pharisees. In verse 19 they are said to dress in purple (civil authority) and fine linen (religious authority). Dressed as they were, how conspicuous they must have looked as Jesus told the story!
They also “fared sumptuously every day” (vs. 19), having access to the Scriptures daily. Yet in the hardness of their hearts, they would not believe in Jesus, though he rose from the dead (vs. 31).
In contrast, there was Lazarus, the outcast, the “gentile,” who had no spiritual advantage whatsoever. To receive any spiritual food (God’s Word) he had to beg, hoping for a few crumbs from the table. His only comfort was from the “dogs,” a euphemism for the “gentiles.” This is confirmed by Jesus’ words in Matthew 15:21-28.
21 And Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman came out from that region, and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came to Him and kept asking Him, saying, "Send her away, for she is shouting out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
One of the main purposes of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was to show that a profound change was about to take place. The “rich man” was about to be judged, while “Lazarus” was about to be blessed by the Word. And so, the “rich man,” the nation of Judah, “died” in 70 A.D. and was cast out. The “gentiles” then received the Gospel, and in accepting Christ, identified in His death (Rom. 6:7). And so they were blessed in “death,” while the Pharisees and their “five brethren” (vs. 28) remaining in Judaism were “tormented” thereafter.
For the past 2,000 years, the Jews have been saying, “We are tormented in this flame.” But Jesus had told them by another parable in Matthew 21:43,
43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.
If we take this parable as teaching about a future punishment, there is still no reason to conclude either that the “flame” is literal, or that it is unending. Neither issue is addressed in the story, and so we would have to fill in those details by other Bible passages. This we have already done, particularly in chapters 2, 3, and 4.
As Christians, we know that Jesus paid the full penalty for our sin. If the law demanded that the penalty be eternal torment in hellfire, then Jesus would have had to burn in hell forever. He did not do this. The question is: are we yet in our sins? Or did Jesus’ DEATH or a mere 3 days pay the penalty in full?
The answer is simple. Jesus was not tormented for eternity, and He did indeed pay the full penalty for sin. Therefore, as Paul said, “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), NOT eternal death, NOT hellfire, NOT some other death dreamed up in the imagination of men with which to threaten their enemies. All we need to do is see the example of Jesus to know the full penalty of sin.
In the pain He felt from Gethsemane to His death on the Cross, he paid for our personal sins, going through the “lake of fire” on this earth, even as we do on a smaller scale in the process of purification. In Jesus’ actual death for 3 days, He paid for the original sin of Adam, whose penalty was death (Gen. 2:17). It is not our intention to minimize the awful price He paid for sin. It was indeed a terrible price to pay. Yet an ETERNAL penalty is one in which there is NO HOPE of ever paying it in full. But we know that Jesus did pay it in full.
You know hell isn't so much a fear I try to plant in people's mind, as it one that keeps me praying for someone who is not saved.
It is not something that I spend much time thinking about in my own life, heaven is much more rewarding and beneficial.
I think about how the actions I take and make in this life impact my eternity. I see challenges here as lessons that will become clearer there.
And the existence of hell does not mar the image of God in my mind. It strengthens it.
I know from our POV it seems unfair, but if God was fair, shouldn't he have wiped us off the planet by now as a species and as individuals.
He restrains himself not because he is incapable of disciplining or punishing us because as it is often the case, the ones he loves get chastised. (Hebrews)
And I know Mark you have said before you believe hell is there for a time. I see the scriptures saying it will be for all eternity. Because you have to understand, time is only for this life only, when earth is done, time will be no more and if time is no more, our state at that moment will be permanent.
So consider the blood of the martyrs and how fair it would be for their deaths to have no meaning and their killers to gain entrance without having to do anything here.
So consider the blood of the martyrs and how fair it would be for their deaths to have no meaning and their killers to gain entrance without having to do anything here.
Speaking of what is fair and what is not fair, how does this parable of Jesus line up with your present theology of a few receiving eternal bliss and the majority receiving eternal torment?
Matthew 20:1-16
20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7 "'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9 "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
even in the worst of em...that's the point ain't it
so def before you go listing verses about the wicked being cut off and all that...
consider that it might be a what and not a who that will be cut
i think of those verses about plucking your eye out if it offends-better to enter into the kingdom with one eye then not enter at all...and the rest of that which Jesus was saying about it
---
so if you think that people are going to burn in hell forever
Because you have to understand, time is only for this life only, when earth is done, time will be no more and if time is no more, our state at that moment will be permanent.
Song -- do we REALLY need you quoting yourself 7 minutes after you just posted??? Some folks might think you are duplicating your own efforts with no apparent purpose.... :D-->
Here's a passage of scripture I found that seems to me a telling warning of what will happen to those who do not follow Christ.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
God's wrath is a reality for the disobedient. God is love, but he is also holy and just and his hatred of sin will someday come upon the world.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def, in looking over your post relayed from Fairchild. Are you quoting me correctly? With regard to genea I said as follows:
My understanding above was based on the Thayer's definition below. Please note definition 4 below - an age...the space of from 30-33 years.
This man makes a big deal and says that there are a number of different contextual definitions for various Greek words. Then he completely contradicts himself by limiting the definition of genea and complains that my definition was wrong even though it is plainly based on the Thayer's definition below. This is nothing more than tit for tat on Fairchild's part. Then he proceeds to ignore the main point of my post that his definition of aion as forever is contradicted by, not just by a few, but a number of New Testament usages.
Def, are you sure you are quoting me correctly to Mr. Fairchild? For now I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that some where the message has been distorted. But let me tell you this. I have followed this thread from its outset and am very familiar with the content of this debate. If Mr. Fairchild is not familiar with this thread and what has been actually written he is not going to fair well in a debate such as this. But by all means, as with others, I welcome his input.
NT:1074
genea, geneas, hee
1. a begetting, birth, nativity
2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
a. properly, the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matt 1:17
b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character Matt 17:17
3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matt 24:34
4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years Acts 14:16
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)
The scriptural reference for the above usage is as follows:
Acts 14:16
16 Who in times (genea, Strong's # 1074) past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
KJV
In adding this reference and showing the specific usage from the scriptures that shows Thayer's contextual definition 4 above I hope to set a good example for others to also follow.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hello again Def. Def, I don't mean to rub this in, but your bible scholar did exactly what I said he was going to do. He broke his own rule of interpretation and this forum plainly shows this. His rule was that,
I never argued with him on this point. In fact, I have noticed this myself at times as I did recently with the Greek word "genea", Strong's number 1074. When I did this Mr. Fairchild, who you apparently esteem because of his theology background, criticized me in error. I had in fact followed the above stated rule of word interpretation. Hopefully, Mr. Fairchild was unaware of this because of an oversight on his part or because he was distracted from taking the time to look up this word in a lexicon before his criticism.
However, Mr. Fairchild may have a more serious problem. That of being a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). He should have welcomed my application of his above stated rule and embraced it, but unfortunately for him he did not. I sure hope that he does not think that only he can follow the principles of studious biblicial interpretation and that others with a different doctrinal view point from his own can not. This reminds me. When one says that Greek words can have different meanings depending on the context one should not do this for the purpose of adding bias or traditions of men to biblical interpretation. This is not honest and is handling the word of God deceitfully whether one realizes this or not.
I welcome all posters to this subject forum. However, if I would have made the above explained mistake that Professor Fairchild made recently, I would have come clean by now and admitted my mistake on this forum. I want to give professor Fairchild the opportunity to do this so Def will you please copy and paste this post to an e-mail and send it to him. I would hate to think that ones religious standing would stand in the way of genuine spiritual fruit in ones lifestyle. And I want to remind us of Galations 6:1.
6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
NIV
I also would like to extend an invitation to Mark Fairchild to post directly on this web site forum. And Def I want to thank you again for starting this thread. We may disagree on this subject, but I recognize that without your input here I would not have posted as much material on this subject as I have. Again thank you for posting what you have. It has motivated me to post a great deal on this subject that I otherwise would not have. And with that in mind as previously promised below is an article on the subject of the Jubilee.
The Law of Jubilee
By Dr. Stephen E. Jones
Even as Jesus Christ is the central Person of all history, the law of Jubilee is the most fundamental law of all creation. The law of Jubilee is the basis of forgiveness and grace. It is the purpose and goal of the law itself. It compels a climax of earth history and a full end of the dominion of darkness and sin. The basic law of Jubilee is recorded in Leviticus 25:8-13.
8 You are also to count off seven Sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven Sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land. 10 You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
When Israel conquered the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua, he divided the land among all the families in Israel. This was their inheritance in the land, and no one (other than God Himself) could lawfully deprive them of their inheritance. However, if drought struck the land, or some other type of disaster, the families might lose their land. They would sell the land to someone else until the year of Jubilee.
The value of the land was measured in terms of its ability to produce barley, and an “omer” of barley (about eight bushels) had a fixed value of fifty shekels (about thirteen ounces) of silver (Leviticus 27:16). In selling land the buyer was to pay a fair price according to the amount of barley the land could normally produce from the present time to the year of Jubilee. Of course, they could not count the Sabbath years, when the land was to rest and could not produce a crop.
When the fair price had been calculated, the sale was made, and the new owners began to farm the property. The previous owners generally found employment on another estate, unless they were hired to work their own land as laborers for the new owner. It was the right of the original land inheritor to redeem his land at any time if he was able to do so. With each passing year the redemption price of the land was decreased proportionately, because, as we said, the land was not valued as land per se but in terms of its harvests. This eliminated any land speculation.
The law of God forbade the outright sale of one’s land inheritance, because the land belongs to God. All land sales were temporary. Today we would call them leases. Leviticus 25:23-28 says,
23 The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me. 24 Thus for every piece of your property, you are to provide for the redemption of the land. 25 If a fellow countryman of yours becomes so poor he has to sell part of his property, then his nearest kinsman is to come and buy back what his relative has sold. 26 Or in case a man has no kinsman, but so recovers his means as to find sufficient for its redemption, 27 then he shall calculate the years since its sale and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it, and so return to his property. 28 But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of Jubilee; but at the Jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property.
No man could permanently lose his land inheritance through debt. At the Jubilee, the land would revert back to him, and any remaining debts were to be cancelled.
The Lawful Right of Redemption
Verse 25 above says also that it was the will of God that the debtor’s nearest kinsman should redeem his brother when possible. In fact, the law specifically states in the NASV that “his nearest kinsman IS TO COME AND BUY BACK what his relative has sold.” We know that the law is not only a moral document, but is also prophetic, because this is the law that Jesus performed perfectly. It was therefore prophesying that Jesus Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, would come to buy back everything that was sold when Adam sinned. The Scriptures cannot be broken. If the redeemer has the power to redeem, the law says he is commanded by the will of the Father in heaven to redeem what his brother has lost.
We are His brethren. Therefore, the law demands that Jesus Christ redeem all that was lost in Adam. The only relevant question is whether or not Jesus Christ really did this or not. I believe He did, for the blood has never lost its power, nor did Jesus fail in any point of law to do all that the Father asked of Him. The law was fully satisfied.
The law of redemption was closely tied to the law of Jubilee. Essentially, redemption of the inheritance was always possible prior to the year of Jubilee. If the debtor somehow could scrape together enough money to redeem himself, he always had the lawful right to do so. A near kinsman also had the lawful right to redeem the debtor at any time. We read in Leviticus 25:47-55.
47 Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold himself to him up to the year of Jubilee; and the price of his sale shall correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that he shall be with him. 51 If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption; 52 and if few years remain until the year of Jubilee, he shall so calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount for his redemption. 53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight. 54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him. 55 For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
It is important to understand the law of redemption, because it has everything to do with God’s plan for the redemption of both Israel and the world. A friend does not have the right of redemption; only a near kinsman does. This means that if a man sells himself and his family to work for another man, his friend may redeem him—but only if the master allows it. The friend does not have the RIGHT of redemption. Instead, the master has the right to keep the new bondservant in his employ. But if a near kinsman decides to redeem the debtor, the master has no choice in the matter, for the kinsman has the right of redemption.
Jesus came to earth to redeem His people (Luke 1:68). He did not come in the form of an angel, but was born a man, specifically of the seed of Abraham. He did this in order to have the lawful right of redemption. If He had come as an angel, the divine law would have ruled that He was only a FRIEND of sinners, whose sin had given them a debt they could not pay, men who had lost their inheritance through Adam’s sin.
Jesus was indeed a friend of sinners, but He chose to be more than that. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for Israel, He had to be more than a mere friend. He had to be born of the seed of Abraham. In order to have the RIGHT of redemption for all mankind, He had to be more than an angelic friend. He had to be born of flesh and blood. He qualified on both counts, as we read in Hebrews 2:11-17.
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying [in Psalm 22:22], "I will proclaim Thy name to My brethren, In the midst of the congregation I will sing Thy praise." 13 And again [in 2 Samuel 22:3], "I will put My trust in Him." And again [in Isaiah 8:18], "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." 14 Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
We conclude, then, that Jesus Christ was born of flesh and blood in order to have the lawful right of redemption of the whole world. He was likewise born specifically of the seed of Abraham in order to have the lawful right of redemption for the House of Israel. These are separate promises, but they are based upon the same law of redemption. Israel was to be redeemed from the hand of her enemies (Assyria) and would ultimately return to God. The world of flesh and blood, by the same law, will also be redeemed from the final and ultimate enemy—death—for death does not hold the right of redemption and has no choice but to turn every captive loose at Jesus Christ’s demand.
The Redeemed Serve a New Master
In the law of redemption, the redeemed bondservant does not have the lawful right to be his own boss or the master of his own destiny. As we quoted earlier in Leviticus 25:53,
53 Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule over him with severity in your sight.
A redeemer is one who pays the price of redemption for the bondservant. In essence, he buys the bondservant from the master, who is a “stranger,” or foreigner, and who is likely to abuse the man and oppress him. The near kinsman is commanded to redeem his brother on the grounds that he will treat the bondservant in a lawful manner with kindness and consideration. This means that the bondservant merely changes masters. Redemption does NOT mean the bondservant is now free to do his own will. The Apostle Paul discusses this point of law in Romans 6, the chapter where he discusses the supposed right of the redeemed Christian to continue in sin that grace may increase.
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . . 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Paul’s discussion here is based upon the law of redemption. The redeemed bondservant is bound by the divine law to serve the redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer, who bought us with His blood, and for this reason, as Paul says, we have been “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (vs. 22). That is, sin is no longer our master, but we now have God as our Master. That means we are now accountable to His law and are expected to be obedient to Him. John says that “sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). John also says in 1 John 2:3 and 4,
3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
John is not saying that the law is the basis of our salvation. He is saying that our obedience is the outward EVIDENCE that we are saved, for if we claim to be redeemed, but refuse to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, we do not really know Him. “By this we know.” The lawless Christian is violating the law of redemption. For this reason, Jesus says of such people in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."
Lawless Christians will not lose their salvation ultimately. They will be “saved, yet so as through fire,” as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:15. And, of course, if a man merely professes to be a believer but is not really a Christian at all—God judges the heart—then such a man will be thrown into the lake of fire for a longer and more extensive kind of purification. Those unbelievers, however, will finally be set free at the great Jubilee at the end of time, for we read in Leviticus 25:54,
54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.
What a glorious promise! The Jubilee is the law of grace. No matter how far a man goes into debt, the Jubilee will set him free. Even if no kinsman redeems him, there is a day coming when he will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. This is why all of creation is awaiting this day. Romans 8:19-25 says,
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
The law of Jubilee mandates the setting free of all creation at some point in history. Personally, I believe this will come after 49,000 years of history. The lowest level of Jubilee came after 49 years (Lev. 25:8). The trumpet for the Jubilee was blown on the Day of Atonement, which was ten days into the fiftieth year (Leviticus 25:9).
In prophetic history we see higher-level Jubilees, such as Daniel’s seventy weeks (of years), which is actually ten Jubilee cycles, or 490 years. Jesus set us free on the Cross at the end of Daniel’s seventy weeks in 33 AD. (See our book, Secrets of Time, chapter 9.)
The forty-Jubilee cycle of 1,960 years is also important, as is the fifty-Jubilee cycle of 2,450 years. These subjects are covered extensively in Secrets of Time, but are beyond the scope of this book. Yet the final Creation’s Jubilee, I believe, is 49,000 years. I cannot prove this, of course, nor is it critical to do so. It is sufficient to know that the law of God demands limits on how long a debtor can be enslaved, or how long a sinner can be in bondage to his sin.
All creation waits in anticipation of this Jubilee. It is the goal of history and the ultimate purpose of God. The law of Jubilee on every level obtains its power by the blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, as we read in 1 John 2:1 and 2,
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
All Land Belongs to God
The law of Jubilee depends upon a deeper law, which we quoted earlier. It is found in Leviticus 25:23, where God says, "the land is mine." For this reason, it could not be sold permanently, but always had to revert back to the original owners at the year of Jubilee. Adam was made of the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7). Man was a part of God's creation and land inheritance. God's intent was to build a house for Himself in earth, and that house is man himself.
Because man is a created being, he does not own himself. God owns all that He has created. All the land belongs to God. It is true that man has been given a level of authority, but man does not have ultimate sovereignty over his "land," that is, himself. For this reason, man has been given the right to sell his land temporarily. He may sell himself into sin for a while, even for a lifetime. But he has never been given the right to sell his land for all time. His land will always have to revert back to God at the Jubilee.
In other words, no man can be so great a sinner that he cannot be set free at the year of Jubilee. No man can go so far into debt that he cannot be set free in the year of Jubilee. No man has either the authority or the ability to incur a debt that is greater than the year of Jubilee can remedy. This is the law of God, not man's law.
When man sinned, the "land" was sold. That is, Adam and his children and his entire estate were sold into sin. In essence, God lost His inheritance in the earth. It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem His lost inheritance. He came as a near Kinsman in order to secure the RIGHT of redemption. By His own blood, He paid the full price of the sin of the entire world from Adam to the end of time. The only question remaining is whether Jesus Christ loves the world enough to actually take advantage of His legal rights.
The answer is found in John 3:16, "God so loved the world. . ." The real question is this: If Jesus Christ had the power to save all men, would He do so? Of course He would, because He loves all that He created. Well, Jesus does have the power and the wisdom to save all men. His blood--the payment for the sin of the world--is worth far more than the sin-debt of all mankind put together. More than that, the law is on His side, because He has the right of redemption. That means He can redeem all if He wants to do so.
Suppose you, dear reader, had a family of loved ones who had been sold into slavery. If you came, having the legal right of redemption and paid the full price of their redemption, would you be satisfied if the slave master accepted your money, but then gave you only one or two of them? Of course not. If you truly loved them, you would demand all that you paid for. But even if your loved ones refused to be redeemed, this could only delay the process until the year of Jubilee. Remember Leviticus 25:54,
54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.
Though the rulers of men and nations have consistently refused to declare a Jubilee over its people, God is not a man that He should lie. He will always follow His own law, regardless of the refusal of men to be obedient.
The Judgment of God in the Final Age
The law of God demands the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). The divine judgments of God are not eternal, as men define eternal. They are aionian, as the Greek text says. They pertain only to an eon (aion), or an age. The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 is the same as the "fiery stream" mentioned in Daniel 7:9-11. Daniel tells us that the fire comes from God's throne. A throne is an ancient symbol of law. When a king sits upon a throne, he is officially administering the law or its judgments. God is the King of Creation, and He judges all according to His law. Therefore, the fire is the divine law, as Moses tells us in Deuteronomy 33:2,
2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
The "fire" of the divine law judges no man for any crime by sentencing them to burn in a literal fire. All sin is reckoned as a debt that is owed to the victims of injustice. If the sinner cannot pay the restitution, he is to be a bondservant until the debt is paid. The believers will rule over them. That is, the believers will be given authority over the sinners (debtors), and be responsible to teach them the righteousness and character of God. For this reason, the prophet tells us in Isaiah 26:9,
9 . . . For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
This is the "fire" of the divine law. It is not torture or punishment; it is justice. God's judgments are corrective in nature. With God, there is no endless punishment without mercy. Judgment always ends in grace, for that is the law of Jubilee.
Regardless of the precise nature of God's judgment upon sinners in that age, we know from the law of Jubilee that God's judgments are age-abiding, not everlasting, as some have translated the Greek word, aionian. Proper translations of this term are found in Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible. They understand aionian in the same way that the early Church fathers did, for their writings often spoke of the judgments to come as being temporary and limited to an age.
The law of Jubilee demands an end to all liability for sin (debt) at some point in the future. The law of Jubilee demands that all debts be cancelled at the end of that final age. Then all creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
The Restoration of All Things
When God restores all things, then will Jesus' words be fulfilled in John 12:32, 33,
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
Likewise, the words of the Apostle Paul will be fulfilled in 1Corinthians 15:22-28,
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order . . . . 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
Even as in Adam all mankind died, so also in Christ, the Second Adam, all mankind will be made alive--but not all at once. Some will come into life in the first resurrection, others at the general resurrection, but all others at the great Jubilee of creation. Paul speaks of this day also in Colossians 1:16-20,
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. . . 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Through the Logos, the Word, Jesus Christ, all things were created (John 1:3), and through Him, all things will be reconciled to Himself. There will be nothing left outside of His dominion in the end, as we read in Hebrews 2:8 and 9,
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. "For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. 9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
In this manner He "is the Savior of all men, especially of believers," as the Apostle Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:10. Those who are saved before the creation Jubilee are indeed greatly blessed and will rule in His Kingdom. Yet in the end He is also the Savior of ALL men, not just of the believers. For this reason, all creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19-21), knowing that these sons are but the firstfruits of creation (James 1:18). Paul says that the firstfruits sanctify the whole harvest. After the firstfruits were given to God, this signaled the beginning of the general harvest of the whole field. The field is the world (Matthew 13:39).
So also John sees all of creation rejoicing in the end. Revelation 5 says,
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
This will never happen apart from the law of Jubilee, for most of creation yet remains in enmity against God. They are the ones in need of the Jubilee, for, unlike true believers, they do not take advantage of the law of redemption. The time of redemption ends with the Jubilee. And so we urge all those who hear the Word of God to believe in Jesus Christ and learn what great salvation He has given to men. Our message is that of the Apostle Paul, which he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5,
17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them [the world], and He has committed to us [Christians] the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
We have been given the ministry of reconciliation with a message of good news to give the world. It is NOT the bad news of eternal torment or damnation, but the good news that God has reconciled the world through Christ, who has paid the price for their deliverance and salvation. This is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, who was lifted up on the cross, and therefore will draw ALL MEN unto Himself. This is not wishful thinking. It is prophecy. It is a statement of intent. It is His promise to us and to the world. Let us all rejoice in this good news of God's grace.
God's Kingdom Ministries
6201 University Ave. N.E.
Fridley, Minnesota 55432
(USA)
For further study on the Biblical concept of the restoration of all things, write to us at the above address for the 154-page book by Dr. Stephen E. Jones, Creation's Jubilee.
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def59
Hi Mark
Nice to see you are back. Just checked some verses on hades, still seems like a hot place to me.
again, nice to see you are back.
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Mark
I wish you and Chuck would understand something. I don't preach hellfire and brimstone. I preach the Good News. I preach of a saving, loving lord who gave his life for the world.
I believe in a literal hell, however, because first the Lord talked about it. Second, because Jesus said it exists (Lazarus and the Rich Man) and I see it as a place where those who willingly reject God and Christ and the Holy Spirit will go someday.
Because under your theology, we will be robots, devoid of any passion or emotion or joy. People who have fought against God their whole lives, will be forced to believe? What kind of love is that? To me that is cruel.
You live under the misconception that life is fair, that God is fair.
Was it fair for the 70,000 men to die when David sinned?
Was it fair for the people of the earth to die in the flood and only 8 to survive?
Was it fair that Gentiles had to be circumsized to become part of Israel and the promised land, when Moses never got there?
God justice demands that people pay for their sin. And by rejecting the eternal glory, they must pay for eternity.
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CM
Since you bumped this one up i'll try to help def. i got a little time.
people will pay for their sin
but not in the way you may think
Jesus died for all
somewhere in every person's life there is some good. it will not go un noticed by God
there is room for all in the new heavans and earth
Lazarus and the Rich Man-
are these people or figurative for something else
a literal hell
yes and where is this place
People who have fought against God their whole lives, will be forced to believe
what's left after hell wouldn't be able to deny it
Was it fair for the 70,000 men to die when David sinned?
Yes and Jesus died for them too
when Moses never got there
he got there
they must pay for eternity-where do you get this? and what does.
riddles and parables
rhyme and reason
black and white or
many colors?
new HEAVEN and EARTH
the price for sin has been paid
when we get to the checkout line
it might just clear up
so why live a good life now?
you don't know where your place will
be in the new heaven and earth
where do you want it?
people will suffer loss for their sins
but then we will see a new receipt
this old place will be forgotten
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Def:
Nice to see you check in at this thread. There seems to now be interest in Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Here it is below. One should understand that this parable was addressed to the pharisees who likely already believed in punishment and torment for the law breakers and wicked. Of course, they would never consider themselves to be evil even though Jesus said they were on more than a few occasions. If you follow the parable you might find that Jesus was simply convicting the pharisees by their own religious standards. I will have more to say on this parable later, but for now please read it.
Luke 16:14-31
14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He (Jesus) said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
NIV
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
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CM
i think this says a lot of what the point is
Moses said some cool things, and the Prophets many of whom we have never heard I believe.
Numbers 11:24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. 25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. 27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. 28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
prophets are still around...some don't listen-some do...
it takes reflection on the words, considering them,
that's all, believing will come, it'll fit...fall into place,
the more we listen to each other
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CM
since hell seems to come up here
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
heaven and hell
not very far away from each other
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CM
that doesn't say anything about being in hell forever
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CM
maybe this is what's troubling you def
once again it's nothing about a forever situation
just handling this from a literal perspective
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CM
figuratively Lazarus and the rich man could be
the SAME person, chew on that a bit
but still it won't go on forever
yeah, heaven and hell-pretty close
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Mark Sanguinetti
I don't have time today to offer my own commentary on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. However, for your edification and reading enjoyment I offer the brief commentary below.
From Stephen Jones' book "Creation's Jubilee".
Appendix 5
The Rich Man and Lazarus
The Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is one of the prime texts used to teach the doctrine of eternal torment. We have, in effect answered this assertion quite thoroughly in the general course of our study, but we offer this brief look at this parable as a supplement.
We must first recognize this to be a parable, rather than a literal story. It follows the same general pattern of Jesus’ other parables of the Kingdom. The rich man is the villain, representing (as usual) the Scribes and Pharisees. In verse 19 they are said to dress in purple (civil authority) and fine linen (religious authority). Dressed as they were, how conspicuous they must have looked as Jesus told the story!
They also “fared sumptuously every day” (vs. 19), having access to the Scriptures daily. Yet in the hardness of their hearts, they would not believe in Jesus, though he rose from the dead (vs. 31).
In contrast, there was Lazarus, the outcast, the “gentile,” who had no spiritual advantage whatsoever. To receive any spiritual food (God’s Word) he had to beg, hoping for a few crumbs from the table. His only comfort was from the “dogs,” a euphemism for the “gentiles.” This is confirmed by Jesus’ words in Matthew 15:21-28.
21 And Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman came out from that region, and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came to Him and kept asking Him, saying, "Send her away, for she is shouting out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
One of the main purposes of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was to show that a profound change was about to take place. The “rich man” was about to be judged, while “Lazarus” was about to be blessed by the Word. And so, the “rich man,” the nation of Judah, “died” in 70 A.D. and was cast out. The “gentiles” then received the Gospel, and in accepting Christ, identified in His death (Rom. 6:7). And so they were blessed in “death,” while the Pharisees and their “five brethren” (vs. 28) remaining in Judaism were “tormented” thereafter.
For the past 2,000 years, the Jews have been saying, “We are tormented in this flame.” But Jesus had told them by another parable in Matthew 21:43,
43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.
If we take this parable as teaching about a future punishment, there is still no reason to conclude either that the “flame” is literal, or that it is unending. Neither issue is addressed in the story, and so we would have to fill in those details by other Bible passages. This we have already done, particularly in chapters 2, 3, and 4.
As Christians, we know that Jesus paid the full penalty for our sin. If the law demanded that the penalty be eternal torment in hellfire, then Jesus would have had to burn in hell forever. He did not do this. The question is: are we yet in our sins? Or did Jesus’ DEATH or a mere 3 days pay the penalty in full?
The answer is simple. Jesus was not tormented for eternity, and He did indeed pay the full penalty for sin. Therefore, as Paul said, “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), NOT eternal death, NOT hellfire, NOT some other death dreamed up in the imagination of men with which to threaten their enemies. All we need to do is see the example of Jesus to know the full penalty of sin.
In the pain He felt from Gethsemane to His death on the Cross, he paid for our personal sins, going through the “lake of fire” on this earth, even as we do on a smaller scale in the process of purification. In Jesus’ actual death for 3 days, He paid for the original sin of Adam, whose penalty was death (Gen. 2:17). It is not our intention to minimize the awful price He paid for sin. It was indeed a terrible price to pay. Yet an ETERNAL penalty is one in which there is NO HOPE of ever paying it in full. But we know that Jesus did pay it in full.
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def59
You know hell isn't so much a fear I try to plant in people's mind, as it one that keeps me praying for someone who is not saved.
It is not something that I spend much time thinking about in my own life, heaven is much more rewarding and beneficial.
I think about how the actions I take and make in this life impact my eternity. I see challenges here as lessons that will become clearer there.
And the existence of hell does not mar the image of God in my mind. It strengthens it.
I know from our POV it seems unfair, but if God was fair, shouldn't he have wiped us off the planet by now as a species and as individuals.
He restrains himself not because he is incapable of disciplining or punishing us because as it is often the case, the ones he loves get chastised. (Hebrews)
And I know Mark you have said before you believe hell is there for a time. I see the scriptures saying it will be for all eternity. Because you have to understand, time is only for this life only, when earth is done, time will be no more and if time is no more, our state at that moment will be permanent.
So consider the blood of the martyrs and how fair it would be for their deaths to have no meaning and their killers to gain entrance without having to do anything here.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def says,
Speaking of what is fair and what is not fair, how does this parable of Jesus line up with your present theology of a few receiving eternal bliss and the majority receiving eternal torment?
Matthew 20:1-16
20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7 "'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9 "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
NIV
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CM
in reference to hell
where do you see this
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
compassion
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CM
yyyeeeeaaaahhhhhh
even in the worst of em...that's the point ain't it
so def before you go listing verses about the wicked being cut off and all that...
consider that it might be a what and not a who that will be cut
i think of those verses about plucking your eye out if it offends-better to enter into the kingdom with one eye then not enter at all...and the rest of that which Jesus was saying about it
---
so if you think that people are going to burn in hell forever
-who should we be telling?
should you be telling me?
or maybe me telling you?
hmmmmmmmmmm
hell hell hell
hello?
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CM
i don't see this in the scripture
again-help me out a little here
we will all be there def...
take care of who you might be
telling this to-your pov-you might
really hurt someone...
and i don't think you want to do that
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
what scripture or should i think which
can we at least realise that christianty is an eastern religion
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
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alfakat
Song -- do we REALLY need you quoting yourself 7 minutes after you just posted??? Some folks might think you are duplicating your own efforts with no apparent purpose....
:D-->
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def59
Here's a passage of scripture I found that seems to me a telling warning of what will happen to those who do not follow Christ.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
God's wrath is a reality for the disobedient. God is love, but he is also holy and just and his hatred of sin will someday come upon the world.
Repent now and walk toward God.
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CM
In all honesty and from the heart.
Thank you def59 for putting this on your thread.
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