How many churches are there now in Charlotte, Pirate? Seems I recall hearing a number of approx. 350 (!) when I was a WOW there back in 82-83. Quite an extraordinary number if that's correct.
Personally, I think that flushing the Q'ran is unnecassary as a religious statement, but hows come Marilyn Manson can rip bibles from on stage but NC baptists can't disrespect the Q'ran???
Sure they can , but don't expect many people to look to them for moral guidance if they start acting like Marilyn Manson.
Actually, I think MMs fans DO get moral guidance from MM. They may not think of it in those terms but it's the same thing isn't it? I don't think NC Baptists should be banned from the "moral guidance hall of fame" just because of one stray thought. I know that it's true that MM advertizes himself as entertainment whereas NC Baptists advertize themselves as moral guidance and that is a technical difference, but from a freedom of speech perspective, there IS a double standard being used here.
Sure they can , but don't expect many people to look to them for moral guidance if they start acting like Marilyn Manson.
Actually, I think MMs fans DO get moral guidance from MM. They may not think of it in those terms but it's the same thing isn't it? I don't think NC Baptists should be banned from the "moral guidance hall of fame" just because of one stray thought. I know that it's true that MM advertizes himself as entertainment whereas NC Baptists advertize themselves as moral guidance and that is a technical difference, but from a freedom of speech perspective, there IS a double standard being used here
No not really, Linda Z said what i was trying to say but better than me.
Look at it this way, people get po'd at Marilyn Manson all the time, why shouldn't they be allowed to get po'd at the this church?
That would be a double standard.
Nobody is banning them from the 'moral guidance hall of fame' but they aren't in any danger of being admitted on their own merits anytime soon either
I dont know much of anything about Manson, other than that he/she is some sort of caricatured cartoon character talentless rock doper who goes out of his way (apparently)to push buttons and to tick people off.
He's more like an 2nd rate oldfashioned side show act than a purported purveyor of divine truth which the Bapts. claim to be.
To me on both counts it is more like annoying stupidity for self promotion equal on both sides than something I would bother getting up in arms about.
from a freedom of speech perspective, there IS a double standard being used here.
If you think so, then you don't have a clue what constitutionally protected freedom of speech means.
Nobody has prohibited either of your two cases that you say indicate a double standard, so free speech isn't even an issue. If you were to say that most people hold churches to different standards of approval than they do Marilyn Manson, then you would be correct, but societal approval of the content of speech has nothing to do with whether or not it is free. Disapproval does not equal abridgement. In most cases, they're not even similar.
You're using the same nonsensical argument that anti-war people used when they were criticised for some of the things they said.
Nobody has prohibited either of your two cases that you say indicate a double standard, so free speech isn't even an issue.
In other words, no laws have been passed, but the left biased media has had a field day with the NC Baptist marquis thinking they are "making a difference" which they think will LEAD to laws being passed.
In Grand Rapids, MI, where I lived at the time of the Columbine massacre, MM did a show the next night, and dozens of protesters stood outside the location of the show screaming at concertgoers telling them they would go to hell (one guy had a 12' tall wooden cross tethered to his back side), also thinking they were "making a difference". Not long after this, certain influential people in the city tried to get a law passed that would forbid anyone under 18 from attending any shows these people thought would be "unsuitable for western MI youth". Amway founder Jay Van Andel himself, after whom the building the MM show was held at is named, nixed that one in a hurry claiming that there was no possible way to enforce this proposed law.
quote:
but societal approval of the content of speech has nothing to do with whether or not it is free.
Not directly, but the above examples show that some people who try to "make a difference" succeed. If you can't see that there is an obvious double standard in some peoples' thinking (people who might try to "make a difference") then you must be in the middle of it.
In fact, I'll go further. At the place I worked in GR from '94-'00 (roughly 125 employees) there were several Christians in the place. Everybody got along and seemed to be focussed on the work, but one day the plant mgr said that no one could wear a T shirt with any religious messages on it.
We figured some wacko called the ACLU, who, in turn contacted the company with a threatening religious message of their own, like "thou shalt not think about God or encourage anybody else to think about God". But what really got us going was one guy wore a T shirt that said "Marilyn Manson: Antichrist superstar!" Religious message: yes or no?
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TheInvisibleDan
How many churches are there now in Charlotte, Pirate? Seems I recall hearing a number of approx. 350 (!) when I was a WOW there back in 82-83. Quite an extraordinary number if that's correct.
Danny
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dmiller
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Jim
I wonder if Rev. Lovelace knows how to dance around in tights?
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Bramble
He changed his tune.
http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=20858
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herbiejuan
What would be scary is if he and his congregates (and others like them) formed informal militias, training for the *end time* battles...
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johniam
Personally, I think that flushing the Q'ran is unnecassary as a religious statement, but hows come Marilyn Manson can rip bibles from on stage but NC baptists can't disrespect the Q'ran???
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George Aar
Uh, gosh, when was the last time anyone looked to Marilyn Manson for moral guidance?
sheesh...
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Bramble
I figure the Marilyn Manson/goth scene is trying to be shocking and in your face. They want folks to get disturbed! That's kinda the point.
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johniam
So we penalize people for moral guidance today? No. This is a freedom of speech issue and if Marilyn can do it, so can anyone.
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mstar1
Sure they can , but don't expect many people to look to them for moral guidance if they start acting like Marilyn Manson.
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oenophile
I proudly hail from NC but I ain't no baptist.
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Linda Z
Johniam said:
Yes, that's true. Likewise, we who find others' expression of that right to be offensive have an equal right to say so.
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johniam
Actually, I think MMs fans DO get moral guidance from MM. They may not think of it in those terms but it's the same thing isn't it? I don't think NC Baptists should be banned from the "moral guidance hall of fame" just because of one stray thought. I know that it's true that MM advertizes himself as entertainment whereas NC Baptists advertize themselves as moral guidance and that is a technical difference, but from a freedom of speech perspective, there IS a double standard being used here.
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oilfieldmedic
When I see signs like that...well, it just makes me thankful I am a "Recovering Baptist"...LOL
Water? Where does it say water?
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mstar1
No not really, Linda Z said what i was trying to say but better than me.
Look at it this way, people get po'd at Marilyn Manson all the time, why shouldn't they be allowed to get po'd at the this church?
That would be a double standard.
Nobody is banning them from the 'moral guidance hall of fame' but they aren't in any danger of being admitted on their own merits anytime soon either
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johniam
I'm guessing that some of the same people who are condemning the NC Baptists are NOT condemning MM.
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Bramble
I'm sure they are people in different groups--the ones who dislike Rev Lovelaces's sign, and those that dislike MM. Is that a surprise?
I see polarization everywhere I go. Liberals/Conservatives, religious right/ religious left
Then there are some people who don't have much use for either, Lovelace or MM.
And some people believe no one's religious beliefs or sacred texts should be trashed.
It's a big wide world.
Just because someone thinks Lovelace is wacked doesn't mean they approve of MM.
Honestly, I thought MM's career was in a downslide. Haven't heard of him for ages until you brought him up.
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mstar1
I dont know much of anything about Manson, other than that he/she is some sort of caricatured cartoon character talentless rock doper who goes out of his way (apparently)to push buttons and to tick people off.
He's more like an 2nd rate oldfashioned side show act than a purported purveyor of divine truth which the Bapts. claim to be.
To me on both counts it is more like annoying stupidity for self promotion equal on both sides than something I would bother getting up in arms about.
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Linda Z
Johniam, I can only speak for me: Both MM and that preacher disgust me.
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LG
Nobody has prohibited either of your two cases that you say indicate a double standard, so free speech isn't even an issue. If you were to say that most people hold churches to different standards of approval than they do Marilyn Manson, then you would be correct, but societal approval of the content of speech has nothing to do with whether or not it is free. Disapproval does not equal abridgement. In most cases, they're not even similar.
You're using the same nonsensical argument that anti-war people used when they were criticised for some of the things they said.
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johniam
quote:
Nobody has prohibited either of your two cases that you say indicate a double standard, so free speech isn't even an issue.
In other words, no laws have been passed, but the left biased media has had a field day with the NC Baptist marquis thinking they are "making a difference" which they think will LEAD to laws being passed.
In Grand Rapids, MI, where I lived at the time of the Columbine massacre, MM did a show the next night, and dozens of protesters stood outside the location of the show screaming at concertgoers telling them they would go to hell (one guy had a 12' tall wooden cross tethered to his back side), also thinking they were "making a difference". Not long after this, certain influential people in the city tried to get a law passed that would forbid anyone under 18 from attending any shows these people thought would be "unsuitable for western MI youth". Amway founder Jay Van Andel himself, after whom the building the MM show was held at is named, nixed that one in a hurry claiming that there was no possible way to enforce this proposed law.
quote:
but societal approval of the content of speech has nothing to do with whether or not it is free.
Not directly, but the above examples show that some people who try to "make a difference" succeed. If you can't see that there is an obvious double standard in some peoples' thinking (people who might try to "make a difference") then you must be in the middle of it.
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johniam
In fact, I'll go further. At the place I worked in GR from '94-'00 (roughly 125 employees) there were several Christians in the place. Everybody got along and seemed to be focussed on the work, but one day the plant mgr said that no one could wear a T shirt with any religious messages on it.
We figured some wacko called the ACLU, who, in turn contacted the company with a threatening religious message of their own, like "thou shalt not think about God or encourage anybody else to think about God". But what really got us going was one guy wore a T shirt that said "Marilyn Manson: Antichrist superstar!" Religious message: yes or no?
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LG
Johniam, I think your passion is affecting your clarity of thought.
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Cynic
The National Endowment for the Arts needs to make a grant towards the cost of the sign and the cost of an exhibit carrying out its suggestion.
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