Well folks, we might just have the first "movie thread" to end up in the soap opera forum.
ROR
Zix & P Mosh, how about taking this over to join the OTHER Fahrenheit debate in the caffeinated Politic forum?
Sorry, I just get frustrated with the new GOP attacks against anyone who doesn't agree with them comparing them to Nazis and Communists, which they complained about very vocally before when some people compared Bush to Hitler.
I think I'll see it tomorrow (gotta stay dry somehow)... I'll keep my eyes open... I don't agree with a lot of what this President has done... and I think he's had "his turn" and it's time for someone else... I also don't think that this President is the first to do a lot of the things that have been laid at his feet... I just think he's done and incredibly poor job of doing them...
There have been some posts that implied that MM played fast & loose with the truth. Could not the same be said of Bush? And his father? Wasn't GHWB's administration guilty of manufacturing satellite photos of Iraqi troops massed at the Iraq-Saudi border? For starters?
There is credible evidence to suggest that W had Iraq on the brain before 9-11. Then, when 9-11 actually happened, he spent the majority of the country's efforts to attack Iraq, instead of Afghanistan, where bin Laden lived then, and might live now.
He sent fewer troops to Afghanistan than there are police officers in Manhattan, after waiting several months.
Zix, we tend to disagree on a rather regular basis, and on a variety of topics. While we disagreed, I found your posts to be informative, educational, and a refreshing alternate position on which to bounce my ideas.
However your quote: "I couldn't find a single sentence in that reply that wasn't sadly-deluded bull****"
leads me to believe you are not what I originally thought you to be.
I'd apologize for that stance, but I really don't feel like it right now.
During the Vietnam war, I worked on war casualties. I know what it's like to carry an amputated limb out of the operating room. I remember well, and will never forget, the total STENCH of gangrene. I recall, all too vividly, the sight of a 19 year old Marine with no legs, on the verge of death. I have seen people die.
All for another war that never should have happened, just like the war in Iraq.
If George W. Bush is so committed to this war, he should have his two daughters enlist in the armed forces, and make sure one is sent to Afghanistan and the other to Iraq, and assigned to front line combat units.
I'd write more, but at the moment I am incoherently and unbelievably p***ed off.
quote:EWD said: If George W. Bush is so committed to this war, he should have his two daughters enlist in the armed forces, and make sure one is sent to Afghanistan and the other to Iraq, and assigned to front line combat units.
From what I hear about them (the daughters) that would "boost" the morale of the troops somewhat!
(I don't think that was your intention EWD, but couldn't resist!)
...and after seeing the film Suz decided to wear a red, white and blue scarf! ...who says you can't get patriotic seeing the movie?
hahahahaha.... you are funny!!! :D-->
The film hasn't opened in Australia yet, but I plan to see it. Despite his faults, Mike Moore has brought to our attention many issues that have needed to be.
I am amazed at the vitriolic hatred people have for GWB. If my memory is still slightly accurate, it far surpasses that flung at Richard Nixon. It doesn't seem to me that it's so much what Bush has done, but who he is. The media to a person loathe and despise him, such that if, in one of his admittedly rare press conferences, some Peter or Tom or Dan stood up and just went crazy screaming and cursing and accusing, it would not surprise me one bit. A lot of this is propaganda in my opinion.
Michael Moore's famous (and quickly accepted as gospel truth) lie that Bush's first year in office included 42% vacation,includes trips to Camp David, which are most frequently working weekends for presidents, not actual vacations. Excluding the Camp David weekends would make it 14%.
But there it is. I HATE, LOATHE AND DESPISE WITH A BURNING HATRED....and to he11 with the truth or even facts.
WHY????
My personal take is it's not because of 9/11, Afghanistan or Iraq. I think the bottom line that the organized hate campaign has at its base, veiled in righteous indignation over the so-called "unwarranted" wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the so-called "lousy" economy and sending jobs overseas, (like the 76 food factories owned by Heinz Corporation that are overseas)and all of this amazing juggernaut of loathing -I think it's because he is a faith-confessing Christian and that's the most hated religion in the world right now. So politically incorrect.
So hokey. So just not quite right. Not popular. Embarrassing.
If anyone cares to hear another side (and I realize most of you have your minds made up and would be hopelessly confused by the truth) you can subscribe to an e-letter called The Federalist that reports another side of the story. Even my local news station, a CBS affiliate reports that not everything Mr. Moore states is factual - they're where I got the 14% number.
Jeez. Pick up the hammer and nails, it's another crucifixion party.
I am amazed at the vitriolic hatred people have for GWB. If my memory is still slightly accurate, it far surpasses that flung at Richard Nixon. It doesn't seem to me that it's so much what Bush has done, but who he is. The media to a person loathe and despise him, such that if, in one of his admittedly rare press conferences, some Peter or Tom or Dan stood up and just went crazy screaming and cursing and accusing, it would not surprise me one bit. A lot of this is propaganda in my opinion.
Michael Moore's famous (and quickly accepted as gospel truth) lie that Bush's first year in office included 42% vacation,includes trips to Camp David, which are most frequently working weekends for presidents, not actual vacations. Excluding the Camp David weekends would make it 14%.
But there it is. I HATE, LOATHE AND DESPISE WITH A BURNING HATRED....and to he11 with the truth or even facts.
WHY????
My personal take is it's not because of 9/11, Afghanistan or Iraq. I think the bottom line that the organized hate campaign has at its base, veiled in righteous indignation over the so-called "unwarranted" wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the so-called "lousy" economy and sending jobs overseas, (like the 76 food factories owned by Heinz Corporation that are overseas)and all of this amazing juggernaut of loathing -I think it's because he is a faith-confessing Christian and that's the most hated religion in the world right now. So politically incorrect.
So hokey. So just not quite right. Not popular. Embarrassing.
If anyone cares to hear another side (and I realize most of you have your minds made up and would be hopelessly confused by the truth) you can subscribe to an e-letter called The Federalist that reports another side of the story. Even my local news station, a CBS affiliate reports that not everything Mr. Moore states is factual - they're where I got the 14% number.
Jeez. Pick up the hammer and nails, it's another crucifixion party.
WG
I think I'll pull a Zixar now.
I couldn't find a single sentence in that reply that wasn't sadly-deluded bull****.
I guess I should amend that statement to explain that I am referring to the personal hatred, rather than his policies/politics. If you don't agree with a holder of public office, disagree all you want...it's the American Way, and I'm thankful for it.
I guess it's the personal aspect that bothers me. Lots of people disagreed with Ronald Reagan, or Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter. But they were respectful of them as people, and had respect for the office of President of the United States.
Maybe we're just a disrespectful nation. Maybe that's the proper attitude nowadays. Shut the **** up you ******* ************! seems to be the manner in which to disagree with someone.
I feel disrespected when someone calls my opinion bull****. I wouldn't call your opinion bull****. That's rude.
I guess I should amend that statement to explain that I am referring to the personal hatred, rather than his policies/politics. If you don't agree with a holder of public office, disagree all you want...it's the American Way, and I'm thankful for it.
The problem is that it feels like Bush is doing things that are hurting me, personally or people I care about. If someone is a town commissioner and their job requires them to go kick your grandma out of her home for not paying her taxes, you'd be upset, but that's typical. Now imagine that someone was a police chief, and despite the fact that you called 911 when someone broke into your house, he told all the cops to go home while he went on vacation. To me it seems like Bush did that. I know you won't agree, but I think he should be held personally accountable for his inaction dealing with 9/11 and by blocking his employees from taking action (Cheney seemed to do it more than Bush, but he had to be aware) when they wanted to about terrorist threats, and even failing to continue the work left over during the previous administration that had been done.
quote:Originally posted by Watered Garden:
I guess it's the personal aspect that bothers me. Lots of people disagreed with Ronald Reagan, or Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter. But they were respectful of them as people, and had respect for the office of President of the United States.
I think 9/11 changed a lot of that, because I wasn't opposed to Bush when he was running against Gore. I ended up thinking he became too conservative in office when he ran as more of a centrist, but turned further right. That wasn't that bad in my opinion at the time, but I didn't know then what I know now.
quote:Originally posted by Watered Garden:
Maybe we're just a disrespectful nation. Maybe that's the proper attitude nowadays. Shut the **** up you ******* ************! seems to be the manner in which to disagree with someone.
I agree with you that it's bad, and I'd prefer not to do it, but as with a lot of people I do feel cornered sometimes in conversations and that people will not listen to me no matter what I say.
quote:Originally posted by Watered Garden:
I feel disrespected when someone calls my opinion bull****. I wouldn't call your opinion bull****. That's rude.
WG
Well, I apologize for using it. I wasn't in a good mood and thought that it would be good to "dish it back to the other side" but you were not the person that said it to me so you didn't deserve that. I still strongly disagree with much of what you said, but I should have addressed that rather than using a blanket statement.
quote:WG said: Lots of people disagreed with Ronald Reagan, or Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter. But they were respectful of them as people, and had respect for the office of President of the United States.
WG, for me I think it's because that Bush is different from Reagan, Clinton and Carter. He's riding the coat tails of his Dad (IMO)... and I've got this terrible feeling that his motives for different things are because he's seeking his Dad's approval and acceptance.
I looked at your link 1searcher, but couldn't find the article. Is it the same one that was posted earlier?
After seeing the movie and reading the article referenced above, what do you think of Michael Moore and the movie now?
I think that Hitchen is wrong, and probably didn't actually watch the movie, or at least didn't pay attention to it. I'm aware that the guy is supposedly a liberal, but that article doesn't make sense at all. Perhaps I would think it was valid if I had not seen the movie, but I have and I think that he's way off base.
Then again, Fox News gave it a very positive review, so perhaps Bizzaro World came to the movie reviewers.
I saw the movie the other night and read the above article.
It's hard to tell what comes across more in that article, Hitchen's counterpoints against the movie or his total hate for Moore. I think the later may have won out. Perhaps as a not so successful film maker he is a little jealous.
I enjoyed the movie. Thought it was well done and something that needed to be done. As with most things I believe as a viewer one must get past the little jokes and propaganda-esk (like the kids playing in the streets of Bagdad) parts and see the more important messagees. Those were not made by clever editing or by twisting of words. They were made by seemless cuts of Bush and by people like the soldier that refuses to go back to the war, and the recruiters going to the mall on the bad side of town to get kids to sign the green card (I mean enlist). Seeing all the information at one time was also a little more damning than hearing or reading about some of the things over a number of years.
I, as some may know, am not a huge follower of politics. Hense the lack of my presence in the plotical forums. So some of the stuff was news to me.
I thought Bush's arrogance, stupidity, cluelessness, and hunger for power came thru in a profound way. You could also just see it in his eyes.
I think some of the bigger points in the movie for me were all the convoluted connections that led to Bush, the attempts to hide it on the NG files released, the business man that said with a smile, "It's good for business, bad for the people, but great for business", among many other great quotes and points that were made.
I haven't seen the film yet - been away on vacation with the family.
I'll make my two points that have nothing to do with the movie's content.
I heard much criticism of this movie not being a very good example of a "documentary" as it is defined. (factual movie or TV program: a movie or TV program presenting facts and information, especially about a political, historical, or social issue).
Then I heard Moore say it is an Op-ed piece more than it is a documentary. An Opposite editorial - one that expresses opinion, not just the facts about a patricular subject.
To define the movie that way makes more sense - and to go see it based on that definition makes it easier for either those on the left or right to digest. It's Moore's opinion - his outlook - his "take" on the topic that he decided to make into a film.
Okay - Christopher Hitchens. Anyone ever read his Op-Ed pieces in Vanity Fair? How about his flaming book on Mother Teresa called "The Missionary Position"? I hate to name call anyone - but IMO - this guy is an intellectual snob. He's brilliant, but smarmy. He's scathing and condescending. I've never read a piece by him that didn't have a nasty tone. I've never seen him on any program (he's been on with Bill Mahar a few times) when he didn't sneer at the other panelists' opinions. Okay - I don't like him. I don't disagree with him all the time either - I just don't like the guy's presentation, attitude and "Snape-like" sense of superiority (you Harry Potter fans understand that one).
Look at some more of his articles and op-ed pieces. When I read something by him now, I take it in the context of who Mr. Hitchens believes he is.
See the movie, Hope; I think you will be impressed. MM doesn't pretend to be presenting an objective overall documentary about Bush. He makes no bones about being out to reveal Bush as XXX, but that doesn't make his reasoning any less valid.
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Zixar
I couldn't find a single sentence in that reply that wasn't sadly-deluded bull****.
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Radar OReilly
Well folks, we might just have the first "movie thread" to end up in the soap opera forum.
ROR
Zix & P Mosh, how about taking this over to join the OTHER Fahrenheit debate in the caffeinated Politic forum?
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Zixar
Sorry about that, Radar.
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Mister P-Mosh
Sorry, I just get frustrated with the new GOP attacks against anyone who doesn't agree with them comparing them to Nazis and Communists, which they complained about very vocally before when some people compared Bush to Hitler.
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Tom Strange
Godwin!
:D-->
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notinKansasanymore
Well, I'm not a Nazi or a Communist.
I'm a fifth-generation Texan, and a thirteenth-generation American.
I think Bush is just as crooked as this documentary makes him out to be.
It's not because I watched that little old documentary.
If I disagree with the President, does that make me un-American?
Or does that make me more courageous and patriotic than people who think we have the fox guarding the henhouse, but don't speak out?
Part of being American IS to speak out.
If nobody does that, you might as well call this Communist China.
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Tom Strange
tell me what you really think sister niKa!
:D-->
I think I'll see it tomorrow (gotta stay dry somehow)... I'll keep my eyes open... I don't agree with a lot of what this President has done... and I think he's had "his turn" and it's time for someone else... I also don't think that this President is the first to do a lot of the things that have been laid at his feet... I just think he's done and incredibly poor job of doing them...
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ExWayDaryl
There have been some posts that implied that MM played fast & loose with the truth. Could not the same be said of Bush? And his father? Wasn't GHWB's administration guilty of manufacturing satellite photos of Iraqi troops massed at the Iraq-Saudi border? For starters?
There is credible evidence to suggest that W had Iraq on the brain before 9-11. Then, when 9-11 actually happened, he spent the majority of the country's efforts to attack Iraq, instead of Afghanistan, where bin Laden lived then, and might live now.
He sent fewer troops to Afghanistan than there are police officers in Manhattan, after waiting several months.
Zix, we tend to disagree on a rather regular basis, and on a variety of topics. While we disagreed, I found your posts to be informative, educational, and a refreshing alternate position on which to bounce my ideas.
However your quote: "I couldn't find a single sentence in that reply that wasn't sadly-deluded bull****"
leads me to believe you are not what I originally thought you to be.
I'd apologize for that stance, but I really don't feel like it right now.
During the Vietnam war, I worked on war casualties. I know what it's like to carry an amputated limb out of the operating room. I remember well, and will never forget, the total STENCH of gangrene. I recall, all too vividly, the sight of a 19 year old Marine with no legs, on the verge of death. I have seen people die.
All for another war that never should have happened, just like the war in Iraq.
If George W. Bush is so committed to this war, he should have his two daughters enlist in the armed forces, and make sure one is sent to Afghanistan and the other to Iraq, and assigned to front line combat units.
I'd write more, but at the moment I am incoherently and unbelievably p***ed off.
ExWayDaryl
SSGT - USAF 1968-1974
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Tom Strange
(I don't think that was your intention EWD, but couldn't resist!)
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The Girl From Oz
hahahahaha.... you are funny!!!
:D-->
The film hasn't opened in Australia yet, but I plan to see it. Despite his faults, Mike Moore has brought to our attention many issues that have needed to be.
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Watered Garden
I am amazed at the vitriolic hatred people have for GWB. If my memory is still slightly accurate, it far surpasses that flung at Richard Nixon. It doesn't seem to me that it's so much what Bush has done, but who he is. The media to a person loathe and despise him, such that if, in one of his admittedly rare press conferences, some Peter or Tom or Dan stood up and just went crazy screaming and cursing and accusing, it would not surprise me one bit. A lot of this is propaganda in my opinion.
Michael Moore's famous (and quickly accepted as gospel truth) lie that Bush's first year in office included 42% vacation,includes trips to Camp David, which are most frequently working weekends for presidents, not actual vacations. Excluding the Camp David weekends would make it 14%.
But there it is. I HATE, LOATHE AND DESPISE WITH A BURNING HATRED....and to he11 with the truth or even facts.
WHY????
My personal take is it's not because of 9/11, Afghanistan or Iraq. I think the bottom line that the organized hate campaign has at its base, veiled in righteous indignation over the so-called "unwarranted" wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the so-called "lousy" economy and sending jobs overseas, (like the 76 food factories owned by Heinz Corporation that are overseas)and all of this amazing juggernaut of loathing -I think it's because he is a faith-confessing Christian and that's the most hated religion in the world right now. So politically incorrect.
So hokey. So just not quite right. Not popular. Embarrassing.
If anyone cares to hear another side (and I realize most of you have your minds made up and would be hopelessly confused by the truth) you can subscribe to an e-letter called The Federalist that reports another side of the story. Even my local news station, a CBS affiliate reports that not everything Mr. Moore states is factual - they're where I got the 14% number.
Jeez. Pick up the hammer and nails, it's another crucifixion party.
WG
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Mister P-Mosh
I think I'll pull a Zixar now.
I couldn't find a single sentence in that reply that wasn't sadly-deluded bull****.
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Watered Garden
I guess I should amend that statement to explain that I am referring to the personal hatred, rather than his policies/politics. If you don't agree with a holder of public office, disagree all you want...it's the American Way, and I'm thankful for it.
I guess it's the personal aspect that bothers me. Lots of people disagreed with Ronald Reagan, or Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter. But they were respectful of them as people, and had respect for the office of President of the United States.
Maybe we're just a disrespectful nation. Maybe that's the proper attitude nowadays. Shut the **** up you ******* ************! seems to be the manner in which to disagree with someone.
I feel disrespected when someone calls my opinion bull****. I wouldn't call your opinion bull****. That's rude.
WG
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Mister P-Mosh
The problem is that it feels like Bush is doing things that are hurting me, personally or people I care about. If someone is a town commissioner and their job requires them to go kick your grandma out of her home for not paying her taxes, you'd be upset, but that's typical. Now imagine that someone was a police chief, and despite the fact that you called 911 when someone broke into your house, he told all the cops to go home while he went on vacation. To me it seems like Bush did that. I know you won't agree, but I think he should be held personally accountable for his inaction dealing with 9/11 and by blocking his employees from taking action (Cheney seemed to do it more than Bush, but he had to be aware) when they wanted to about terrorist threats, and even failing to continue the work left over during the previous administration that had been done.
I think 9/11 changed a lot of that, because I wasn't opposed to Bush when he was running against Gore. I ended up thinking he became too conservative in office when he ran as more of a centrist, but turned further right. That wasn't that bad in my opinion at the time, but I didn't know then what I know now.
I agree with you that it's bad, and I'd prefer not to do it, but as with a lot of people I do feel cornered sometimes in conversations and that people will not listen to me no matter what I say.
Well, I apologize for using it. I wasn't in a good mood and thought that it would be good to "dish it back to the other side" but you were not the person that said it to me so you didn't deserve that. I still strongly disagree with much of what you said, but I should have addressed that rather than using a blanket statement.
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1searcher
Unfairenheit 9/11
The lies of Michael Moore.
By Christopher Hitchens
The complete article can be read at http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
After seeing the movie and reading the article referenced above, what do you think of Michael Moore and the movie now?
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Tom Strange
I looked at your link 1searcher, but couldn't find the article. Is it the same one that was posted earlier?
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1searcher
Sorry. The link should be working now.
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The Girl From Oz
What is most frightening of all, is that people really believe this!!!
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Mister P-Mosh
I think that Hitchen is wrong, and probably didn't actually watch the movie, or at least didn't pay attention to it. I'm aware that the guy is supposedly a liberal, but that article doesn't make sense at all. Perhaps I would think it was valid if I had not seen the movie, but I have and I think that he's way off base.
Then again, Fox News gave it a very positive review, so perhaps Bizzaro World came to the movie reviewers.
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lindyhopper
I saw the movie the other night and read the above article.
It's hard to tell what comes across more in that article, Hitchen's counterpoints against the movie or his total hate for Moore. I think the later may have won out. Perhaps as a not so successful film maker he is a little jealous.
I enjoyed the movie. Thought it was well done and something that needed to be done. As with most things I believe as a viewer one must get past the little jokes and propaganda-esk (like the kids playing in the streets of Bagdad) parts and see the more important messagees. Those were not made by clever editing or by twisting of words. They were made by seemless cuts of Bush and by people like the soldier that refuses to go back to the war, and the recruiters going to the mall on the bad side of town to get kids to sign the green card (I mean enlist). Seeing all the information at one time was also a little more damning than hearing or reading about some of the things over a number of years.
I, as some may know, am not a huge follower of politics. Hense the lack of my presence in the plotical forums. So some of the stuff was news to me.
I thought Bush's arrogance, stupidity, cluelessness, and hunger for power came thru in a profound way. You could also just see it in his eyes.
I think some of the bigger points in the movie for me were all the convoluted connections that led to Bush, the attempts to hide it on the NG files released, the business man that said with a smile, "It's good for business, bad for the people, but great for business", among many other great quotes and points that were made.
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Hope R.
I haven't seen the film yet - been away on vacation with the family.
I'll make my two points that have nothing to do with the movie's content.
I heard much criticism of this movie not being a very good example of a "documentary" as it is defined. (factual movie or TV program: a movie or TV program presenting facts and information, especially about a political, historical, or social issue).
Then I heard Moore say it is an Op-ed piece more than it is a documentary. An Opposite editorial - one that expresses opinion, not just the facts about a patricular subject.
To define the movie that way makes more sense - and to go see it based on that definition makes it easier for either those on the left or right to digest. It's Moore's opinion - his outlook - his "take" on the topic that he decided to make into a film.
Okay - Christopher Hitchens. Anyone ever read his Op-Ed pieces in Vanity Fair? How about his flaming book on Mother Teresa called "The Missionary Position"? I hate to name call anyone - but IMO - this guy is an intellectual snob. He's brilliant, but smarmy. He's scathing and condescending. I've never read a piece by him that didn't have a nasty tone. I've never seen him on any program (he's been on with Bill Mahar a few times) when he didn't sneer at the other panelists' opinions. Okay - I don't like him. I don't disagree with him all the time either - I just don't like the guy's presentation, attitude and "Snape-like" sense of superiority (you Harry Potter fans understand that one).
Look at some more of his articles and op-ed pieces. When I read something by him now, I take it in the context of who Mr. Hitchens believes he is.
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Tom
See the movie, Hope; I think you will be impressed. MM doesn't pretend to be presenting an objective overall documentary about Bush. He makes no bones about being out to reveal Bush as XXX, but that doesn't make his reasoning any less valid.
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TheInvisibleDan
I attempted to catch a matinee of it the other day - it was sold out, along with "Spiderman II".
Hopefully I'll catch it tomorrow...
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Linda Z
Hope, I absolutely agree with your opinion of Hitchens. I really dislike smugness, and he's got it in spades.
Can't offer an opinion of the movie because I haven't seen it yet. I'll get around to it one of these days, or I'll wait for the video.
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