You're saying that twi taught that Christ was absent.
Actually, twi taught a couple of things...
They taught that as a substitute for the personage of Christ, the word takes his place on earth.
The bible does not support this in any shape or form...and the only way it supports this is veep's "way".
quote:
They also taught that as a substitute for the personage of Christ, the holy spirit, i.e., Christ in You, the hope of Glory, takes his place on earth.
Jesus is not here physically, which he is not. That's what Wierwille was teaching.
Read John 17 carefully. Jesus states very clearly that Heis present.
Dividing things into 3 pieces to make his doctrine fit is exactly what veep did...and he was wrong...and he led people away from Jesus by teaching this.
It's interesting that you should post that Chapter 17 from John. That was one of my MOST favorite chapters way back when.
It's also interesting how many of us had differing experiences while listening to VPW's teaching. I was too scared of believing Dr's teaching that Jesus Christ was not God, so I COMBED the gospels for everything Jesus himself said he was. John 17 was a highlight of my gospel searching.
I also figured that to get the most out of Dr's teaching to me, I OUGHT to spend some time in the gospels because they were written for out learning. I wanted to learn, so I read them. GOSH! I figured that the whole KJV ought to be read if we wanted to learn all that God wanted us to learn.
***
The "absent Christ" is another subject altogether. Surely we can all see that in Acts Chapter 1 there was SOME way in which Jesus went from being personally present or physically present, to being spiritually present. He went from physically present to NOT physically present. A cloud hid him from their sight, it says.
Earlier in the gospels (I think it was John too) Jesus says to his disciples that he was going to "go away" or to leave. He says that he was IN SOME WAY going to be absent so that he could send us the Comforter. Do you remember these lines? He says to them (paraphrasing) that it would be good for them that he goes away, or becomes absent.
It's just plain logic that when Christ "comes again" that there is SOME KIND of absence that his "coming" will terminate. It's just plain logic that no one here can see him right now, or come up with his phone number, so IN SOME WAY he is absent.
Yes, spiritually, he is not absent.
In the gospels he is WITH people physically. Afterward he is IN people spiritually.
***
Yes, in the TWI verbal traditions (TVT) that drifted more and more from Dr's teachings, we were taught to ignore the gospels, and that Jesus was totally off limits. This was Way Corps teaching, NOT Dr's teaching. I didn't like it when this happened. Neither did Dr.
VPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
If anyone missed this plea of Dr's it can be heard on SNS tape #1014 from April 20, 1980. By that time a lot of drifting and forgetting had occurred and Dr tried to help us correct our error in shoving Jesus aside. This same tape also assures us, just a few minutes earlier, that IN SOME WAY (the best way) Jesus was quite present, IN SPITE OF his apparent absence.
A year later Dr repeated this same plea in a Way Magazine article in the May/June '81 issue.
It was repeated again, a THIRD time in 1985, in his last book, "Order My Steps In Thy Word" on page 222.
How many other things, like this plea, have been forgotten, or had slipped past us unnoticed? The only way to find out is to stop trusting our faulty memories and the false TVT base they rest on and come back to the original teachings.
I agree, TWI did take us away from Jesus, as did vpw, because he denied the true divine nature of the son.
Check that verse in John 17 again, "and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made."
Jesus had glory with the Father, before the world began?
And while Jesus has left us in bodily form, he is with the believers in their hearts.
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it.
Unless it involves talking to him or talking to people outside TWI or reading books not published or sanctioned by TWI.
quote:
Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it.
As long as that "wherever" is twig, TWI's library, your leadership, another believer....
quote:
The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he?
He's who I tell you he is. He's great and all, but PAUL is the one we really should be studying. We don't ask WWJD, we ask WWPD, pee-pul!
NEVERMIND the fact that knowing WHO SOMEONE IS versus KNOWING SOMEONE are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS!! TWI only wants you to know WHO Jesus is - not KNOW Jesus personally!
quote:
The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is.
Nevermind that intimate, personal relationship with him. He's absent, ya know? Don't trust any other preachers, but you can trust ME to tell you what the Bible says about Jesus. ;)-->
quote:
It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
And yes, Christ may not be with us in human form, but he is here, spiritually. Read Revelations, he is with the church - even today. He is the head, he directs it. TWI left him out of the picture, except to use his name after a prayer.
VP magnified the Bible in Christ's place. TWI, even today, worships "the Word." It has taken the place of their very absent Christ.
TWI's greatest disservice was also negating the divinity of Christ.
To most, Christ was a figure way up, somewhere in the universe, who will someday come back. Since, in TWI's thinking, he was a perfect human - it meant we could become as "perfect" as he is by our works, or renewed mind. This is not true, we can never be like him in our limited bodies, to do so is to try to become "like god" - which, as we read in Gen. in the Garden, is a no no.
In order to be like him,and to "see him as he is," we must have new spiritual bodies, I would also assume our minds will be included in that. It is something God will do - not us.
No oldies, not in my dreams - in VP and TWI's dreams.
How many times were we told if we renewed our minds, we could walk as Christ walked, we could be like him.
Renewed mind was the key to power - what power? Walking as he walked. The more you renewed your mind, the more Christ like you could become, the works he did, we could do.
We were to put on the mind of Christ - remember that one?
We were to walk as he walk via the renewed mind in manifestation.
Christ was perfect and had a perfectly renewed mind - Remember that? Thus, the more our minds were renewed, the more like him we could be.
This thread took a turn I didn't expect...but that's what's so great about the open dialogue of this board! :D-->
Mike, I am impressed that you recognize the difference between a trinity/no trinity discussion and an absent Jesus discussion. Good job! :)-->
However, you are missing the point of what I and others are saying here.
Have you ever heard of the parable of the Sower and the Seed?
Even if what you are saying about veep is true, veep allowed, nay, RETAINED AND DEFENDED everybody below him to pluck up the seed of truth and plant the seeds of lies.
The only way anybody could know the difference of what veep ALLOWED and what veep thought would be to do as you have done: study veep night and day.
Quite frankly, Mike, Jesus is who I prefer to follow...
After all, Jesus is who is rightfully Lord...
Right?
******************
Hiya def! Very interesting point! One I was too cowardly to make...thinking I was asking for enough garbage as was. LOL
But it's true...that's what it says.
Know something else?
It says the same thing repeatedly all over the gospels!
Whodda thunk?
**************
Darlene Thelma Belle!
It's soooooooooo good to read you with your fresh-out perspective!
******************
WW,
Good points!
*****************
Sunesis,
Excellent!
Once I understood that there is nothing that can be done for my flesh...that there is a huge difference between broken Man and God...
Well, God was then able to begin healing my mind by straightening out the crooked places.
He's a much more AWESOME and LOVING God than I could have EVER imagined because twi twisted the bible to the point that anybody following twi teachings could possibly never find the truth.
But twi forgot that "renewed mind" is NOT the key to power...
That God is a sovereign, omnipotent God!
So guess what?
God knew the way through my wilderness...aka twi brain...and was able to send Jesus after me, a lost sheep.
How many times were we told if we renewed our minds, we could walk as Christ walked, we could be like him.
Renewed mind was the key to power - what power? Walking as he walked. The more you renewed your mind, the more Christ like you could become, the works he did, we could do.
We were to put on the mind of Christ - remember that one?
We were to walk as he walk via the renewed mind in manifestation.
Christ was perfect and had a perfectly renewed mind - Remember that? Thus, the more our minds were renewed, the more like him we could be.
If my mind is not renewed to any degree, and if I'm screwing up all over the place, and if it's looking like it's all she wrote for me, and I don't even care enough to pray...
I'm posting this in "About the Way" to illustrate just what twi robbed us of by teaching us an "absent Jesus" and directing us away from the gospels.
Yep -- Gospels were always "OT", and for our learning -- but the real *meat and potatos* of the Word was found in the 7 church epistles (or so they said).
Jesus is certainly *absent* from us bodily, but twi took that one step further (imo), and made Him absent -- period.
What Jesus Christ did and accomplished for us was overshadowed (in twi) by how big you could believe. *Believing = Receiving*, *Name It and Claim It*, whatever you want to call it -- it became up to us to get our own blessings and answers to prayer by mind power -- cause Jesus isn't around to help out.
And then there is docvic's *famous dissertation* on why he could not pray the Lord's prayer. He totally threw out a teaching given by Jesus to the disciples, and said it was not relevant for us today.
Yea -- we wuz robbed. Everything twi taught from the epistle's was orchestrated to make it a *feel good* ministry -- and that got translated into $$$ for the deep pockets there at hdqtrs.
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oldiesman
He lives, he lives, Christ Jesus lives today,
he walks with me and he talks with me,
along life's narrow way,
he lives, he lives, salvation to impart...
you ask me how I know HE LIVES
I NOW CAN SPEAK IN TONGUES.
Golly Gee.
Where'd I learn that song from?
Have you seen Christ of the Ozarks
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CoolWaters
OM...
I learned that song correctly when I was 2 or 3 years old...in the Nazarene church.
See?
You missed the whole point of what I was saying because you wanted to defend something that was so wrong it couldn't even get that song correct.
TWI taught you to think like this...
And you're being robbed.
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oldiesman
Cool,
I understand perfectly what you're saying.
You're saying that twi taught that Christ was absent.
Actually, twi taught a couple of things...
They taught that as a substitute for the personage of Christ, the word takes his place on earth.
They also taught that as a substitute for the personage of Christ, the holy spirit, i.e., Christ in You, the hope of Glory, takes his place on earth.
When we walk in the spirit, we are ambassadors, representatives for Christ, here on earth.
Christ is not here physically, which he is not. That's what Wierwille was teaching.
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CoolWaters
The bible does not support this in any shape or form...and the only way it supports this is veep's "way".
Read John 17 carefully. Jesus states very clearly that He is present.
Dividing things into 3 pieces to make his doctrine fit is exactly what veep did...and he was wrong...and he led people away from Jesus by teaching this.
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Mike
Hi Cool Waters,
It's interesting that you should post that Chapter 17 from John. That was one of my MOST favorite chapters way back when.
It's also interesting how many of us had differing experiences while listening to VPW's teaching. I was too scared of believing Dr's teaching that Jesus Christ was not God, so I COMBED the gospels for everything Jesus himself said he was. John 17 was a highlight of my gospel searching.
I also figured that to get the most out of Dr's teaching to me, I OUGHT to spend some time in the gospels because they were written for out learning. I wanted to learn, so I read them. GOSH! I figured that the whole KJV ought to be read if we wanted to learn all that God wanted us to learn.
***
The "absent Christ" is another subject altogether. Surely we can all see that in Acts Chapter 1 there was SOME way in which Jesus went from being personally present or physically present, to being spiritually present. He went from physically present to NOT physically present. A cloud hid him from their sight, it says.
Earlier in the gospels (I think it was John too) Jesus says to his disciples that he was going to "go away" or to leave. He says that he was IN SOME WAY going to be absent so that he could send us the Comforter. Do you remember these lines? He says to them (paraphrasing) that it would be good for them that he goes away, or becomes absent.
It's just plain logic that when Christ "comes again" that there is SOME KIND of absence that his "coming" will terminate. It's just plain logic that no one here can see him right now, or come up with his phone number, so IN SOME WAY he is absent.
Yes, spiritually, he is not absent.
In the gospels he is WITH people physically. Afterward he is IN people spiritually.
***
Yes, in the TWI verbal traditions (TVT) that drifted more and more from Dr's teachings, we were taught to ignore the gospels, and that Jesus was totally off limits. This was Way Corps teaching, NOT Dr's teaching. I didn't like it when this happened. Neither did Dr.
VPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
If anyone missed this plea of Dr's it can be heard on SNS tape #1014 from April 20, 1980. By that time a lot of drifting and forgetting had occurred and Dr tried to help us correct our error in shoving Jesus aside. This same tape also assures us, just a few minutes earlier, that IN SOME WAY (the best way) Jesus was quite present, IN SPITE OF his apparent absence.
A year later Dr repeated this same plea in a Way Magazine article in the May/June '81 issue.
It was repeated again, a THIRD time in 1985, in his last book, "Order My Steps In Thy Word" on page 222.
How many other things, like this plea, have been forgotten, or had slipped past us unnoticed? The only way to find out is to stop trusting our faulty memories and the false TVT base they rest on and come back to the original teachings.
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def59
Hi Mike
Good to see you back.
CW
I agree, TWI did take us away from Jesus, as did vpw, because he denied the true divine nature of the son.
Check that verse in John 17 again, "and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made."
Jesus had glory with the Father, before the world began?
And while Jesus has left us in bodily form, he is with the believers in their hearts.
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Belle
Unless it involves talking to him or talking to people outside TWI or reading books not published or sanctioned by TWI.
As long as that "wherever" is twig, TWI's library, your leadership, another believer....
He's who I tell you he is. He's great and all, but PAUL is the one we really should be studying. We don't ask WWJD, we ask WWPD, pee-pul!
NEVERMIND the fact that knowing WHO SOMEONE IS versus KNOWING SOMEONE are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS!! TWI only wants you to know WHO Jesus is - not KNOW Jesus personally!
Nevermind that intimate, personal relationship with him. He's absent, ya know? Don't trust any other preachers, but you can trust ME to tell you what the Bible says about Jesus.
;)-->
Well, at least he got that part right.
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Mike
Hi def,
Thanks for the welcome. I'm sure some others will disagree, though.
I'm not sure how much time I have to be back, but I do try to keep up by at least reading the thread titles and some contents of a few.
Yes, TWI and the TVT did take us away from the Biblical Jesus, but Dr himself urged us to seek and learn about him.
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Belle
Don't rush back on our account, Mike.
;)-->
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Mike
Belle,
Your comments in between lines of Dr's quote reflect the TVT teaching, not Dr's.
I could quote hundreds of passages where he taught different from what your comments depict.
If your comments reflect what OTHERS taught you in TWI, then I can commiserate with you, but I know Dr did not teach that way.
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WordWolf
You "know" that, but you "know" wrong.
vpw taught correctly on those subjects in a number of places and times
(not "hundreds" unless you have access to his entire log of sermons),
and INcorrectly-as Belle pointed out-on those subjects in a number of places and
times.
Do the math.
How much time did we spend in the GOSPELS-
which cover the very WORDS of Christ-
and how much in the Church Epistles?
We spent as much time in Ephesians ALONE than in all 4 Gospels.
Most of the time we DID spend in the Gospels was in covering how
"everyone else is wrong"
in how many crosses were on Calvary,
the number of Peter's denials,
and minutiae of his Passion.
Were the Gospels completely ignored?
No. (Duh.)
They were, however, de-emphasized except for where we were ridiculing other
Christians.
Was the Old Testament completely ignored?
No. (Duh.)
Where was the BULK of study done?
The Church Epistles.
Who determined what Books were emphasized over others?
Stop and think.
It's a VERY easy question to answer.
You don't REALLY need someone to shove the evidence under your nose, do you?
You've gone over hours and hours of his stuff.
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Sunesis
That is just a beautiful prayer Coolwaters.
And yes, Christ may not be with us in human form, but he is here, spiritually. Read Revelations, he is with the church - even today. He is the head, he directs it. TWI left him out of the picture, except to use his name after a prayer.
VP magnified the Bible in Christ's place. TWI, even today, worships "the Word." It has taken the place of their very absent Christ.
TWI's greatest disservice was also negating the divinity of Christ.
To most, Christ was a figure way up, somewhere in the universe, who will someday come back. Since, in TWI's thinking, he was a perfect human - it meant we could become as "perfect" as he is by our works, or renewed mind. This is not true, we can never be like him in our limited bodies, to do so is to try to become "like god" - which, as we read in Gen. in the Garden, is a no no.
In order to be like him,and to "see him as he is," we must have new spiritual bodies, I would also assume our minds will be included in that. It is something God will do - not us.
Beautiful prayer.
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oldiesman
Oh my goodness, in your dreams Sunesis.
We were taught in twi that we will always sin, and we cannot perfect the flesh because of the old man nature.
We were taught in twi that the renewed mind is the key to power...
Not perfection...
I wish some folks would abandon the propaganda already.
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CoolWaters
And that teaching is a lie of the nth degree for two reasons.
First because it leads a person to understand that God's power is accessable via the flesh.
Second because it does demand fleshly perfection. TWI teaches "perfectly renewed mind".
Yeah...OM...me too...hint hint...
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Sunesis
No oldies, not in my dreams - in VP and TWI's dreams.
How many times were we told if we renewed our minds, we could walk as Christ walked, we could be like him.
Renewed mind was the key to power - what power? Walking as he walked. The more you renewed your mind, the more Christ like you could become, the works he did, we could do.
We were to put on the mind of Christ - remember that one?
We were to walk as he walk via the renewed mind in manifestation.
Christ was perfect and had a perfectly renewed mind - Remember that? Thus, the more our minds were renewed, the more like him we could be.
You must have been sleeping during all of this.
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oldiesman
What!
Twi taught the only time this existed was in the garden of Eden.
Coolwaters what have you and Sunesis been smoking lately?
Be careful otherwise you turn into
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WordWolf
In your haste to try to shout down Sunesis' point, you missed it completely.
I was never in a room where someone said "If we work hard enough, we'll be identical
to Jesus". (I don't dismiss the chance someone DID say that.)
The manner in which twi approached Jesus' humanity WAS that we could emulate him in
ability and receive comparable results-
if not IDENTICAL results,
then results in the same BALLPARK.
"Signs, miracles AND wonders." Forgot about all that?
We were taught that we could manifest the same results-
in the Advanced class.
That class spent a lot of time on the drama and power-
as if that was the TRUE "Advanced" material,
and what we REALLY needed to know to "excel".
We were taught the renewed mind is the key to POWER.
Jesus' POWER seemed to be the main thing we DID discuss when he came up in
discussions-except when we were hearing that
"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ."
"Perfect" the flesh? We were taught the power didn't respect the flesh, so no point
in "perfecting" it.
lcm himself was recently quoted as seeing himself within reach of the goal of
becoming Jesus Christ. I think he learned that somewhere.
We were taught it was OUR manifestation that mattered.....
"replace" Christ?
We didn't need to-
he was already replaced in twi dogma.
He was replaced in emphasis by Bibliolotry,
and in practice by ourselves generally, and specifically by the Man of God
For All Time- whether he called himself "Doctor", "THE Teacher", or the man with the
greatest revelation in 19 centuries.
I wish some folks would abandon the propaganda already.
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CoolWaters
This thread took a turn I didn't expect...but that's what's so great about the open dialogue of this board!
:D-->
Mike, I am impressed that you recognize the difference between a trinity/no trinity discussion and an absent Jesus discussion. Good job!
:)-->
However, you are missing the point of what I and others are saying here.
Have you ever heard of the parable of the Sower and the Seed?
Even if what you are saying about veep is true, veep allowed, nay, RETAINED AND DEFENDED everybody below him to pluck up the seed of truth and plant the seeds of lies.
The only way anybody could know the difference of what veep ALLOWED and what veep thought would be to do as you have done: study veep night and day.
Quite frankly, Mike, Jesus is who I prefer to follow...
After all, Jesus is who is rightfully Lord...
Right?
******************
Hiya def! Very interesting point! One I was too cowardly to make...thinking I was asking for enough garbage as was. LOL
But it's true...that's what it says.
Know something else?
It says the same thing repeatedly all over the gospels!
Whodda thunk?
**************
Darlene Thelma Belle!
It's soooooooooo good to read you with your fresh-out perspective!
******************
WW,
Good points!
*****************
Sunesis,
Excellent!
Once I understood that there is nothing that can be done for my flesh...that there is a huge difference between broken Man and God...
Well, God was then able to begin healing my mind by straightening out the crooked places.
He's a much more AWESOME and LOVING God than I could have EVER imagined because twi twisted the bible to the point that anybody following twi teachings could possibly never find the truth.
But twi forgot that "renewed mind" is NOT the key to power...
That God is a sovereign, omnipotent God!
So guess what?
God knew the way through my wilderness...aka twi brain...and was able to send Jesus after me, a lost sheep.
So...
Nah nah nah nah boo boo on twi!
:P-->
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oldiesman
Yes the bible teaches all of these things.
You know the verses.
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CoolWaters
Just a simple question here...
If my mind is not renewed to any degree, and if I'm screwing up all over the place, and if it's looking like it's all she wrote for me, and I don't even care enough to pray...
Where does that leave me?
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WhiteDove
Interesting Coolwaters
A quick search of the tape logs will find only one teaching for that chapter Wanna guess who taught it?
A Greasespoter
Ok tape #854 Jim Doop
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dmiller
Yep -- Gospels were always "OT", and for our learning -- but the real *meat and potatos* of the Word was found in the 7 church epistles (or so they said).
Jesus is certainly *absent* from us bodily, but twi took that one step further (imo), and made Him absent -- period.
What Jesus Christ did and accomplished for us was overshadowed (in twi) by how big you could believe. *Believing = Receiving*, *Name It and Claim It*, whatever you want to call it -- it became up to us to get our own blessings and answers to prayer by mind power -- cause Jesus isn't around to help out.
And then there is docvic's *famous dissertation* on why he could not pray the Lord's prayer. He totally threw out a teaching given by Jesus to the disciples, and said it was not relevant for us today.
Yea -- we wuz robbed. Everything twi taught from the epistle's was orchestrated to make it a *feel good* ministry -- and that got translated into $$$ for the deep pockets there at hdqtrs.
No wonder they shied away from the Gospels.
David
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oldiesman
I must admit, when I read Ephesians, I feel real real good.
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CoolWaters
You like Ephesians, huh?
A few of weeks ago I learned something at church about a verse in Ephesians that I never learned in twi...
We were talking about this whole "absent Jesus" thing and I blurted out, "I've been taught it's right in the Bible...right there in Ephesians 6:17."
Everybody's (it was a small group of about 12) jaw dropped and they all stared at me, mouths agape and eyes bulging, in shock.
Anybody know why?
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