I haven't done any of this, but I was hoping Zix would drop in on this thread to share some of his incredible insight in this subject, and perhaps recommend some addional programs...
Years ago I did wind it back to the events talked about in promised seed and it seemed to display them accurately.
One time I set it to 3pm on the day Christ was crucified according to JC our passover. It appeared that the planets were in interesting positions. I don't remember exactly what but I think one was directly overhead of Jerusalem and in conjuction with a star named in Bullingers book and another star was over the horizon and directly underneath erusalem and in conjunction with another named star in a constelation.
It occured to me that it might be interesting to list all conjunctions between Christs birth and resurection to see how they lined up with the ministries teachings. never got around to it and now never will but it would be kinda cool.
I haven't done any of this, but I was hoping Zix would drop in on this thread to share some of his incredible insight in this subject, and perhaps recommend some addional programs...
Danny
I, also, was hoping Zix would show up, but I wanted to leave it open to whomever.
Years ago I did wind it back to the events talked about in promised seed and it seemed to display them accurately.
Thanks a lot, ckeer; I just purchased the latest version of RedShift off Ebay for $18.99, including shipping - thanks for the tip; I'm looking forward to it.
quote:
It occured to me that it might be interesting to list all conjunctions between Christs birth and resurection to see how they lined up with the ministries teachings. never got around to it and now never will but it would be kinda cool.
Hafta take a look - I'll let you know what, if anything, I find - Tom
We did this at the Planetarium in Bmore years ago. Apparenly they did it manually which wasn't quiet as accurate but you could see what the books refer to.
It didn't look like much if you didn't know what you were looking at, just a bunch of stars and planets. Definitely not the giant laser beam shooting down into Bethlaham.
At the time it seemed like proof of something. Now, not so much, but I won't go into that.
Has anyone heard of a planet that is supposed to be large (like the moon is large) and seen in the next few days? My sister-in-law said this and I haven't seen anything listed on the science/tech sites on MSNBC nor at the NASA sites. (I thought it would be cool if it were Jupiter) and the next day she said it was supposed to be Jupiter. She is no Way person...just your average joe. Jupiter is the Kings' planet. What say u? Was hoping that Zixar would be discussing it.
Has anyone heard of a planet that is supposed to be large (like the moon is large) and seen in the next few days? My sister-in-law said this and I haven't seen anything listed on the science/tech sites on MSNBC nor at the NASA sites.
By WANDA WALKER for the Beauregard Daily News
Copy Editor
[Ms. Walker wrote about War of the Worlds in which Martians decide to invade Earth at the point when the planet is closest to Earth, then she wrote...] In real life, the Red Planet is going to be the closest to earth in recorded history. Earth is catching up with Mars in a close encounter.
Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the last 5,000 years, but it may be as long at 60,000 years before it happens again.
The encounter will culminate on Aug. 27, when Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles of the Earth and will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will appear 25.11 arch seconds wide, at a modest 75-power magnification.
Mars will look as bright as the full moon to the naked eye and will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August it will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach it's azimuth at about 3 a.m. By the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30 a.m.
Children of all ages will enjoy watching at the beginning of August to see Mars grow progressively brighter and brighter throughout the month.
Regarding the significance of Mars, this is from JCOPS:
quote:
Mars, the first planet farther away from the sun than Earth is in mythology associated with war. In its genuine spiritual light this characteristic is best seen in the Archangel Michael, whom God commissions to stand and fight for His people. He is spoken of as standing for God's people in Daniel 12:1, and as fighting the Devil in Revelation 12:7.
That is from a section in the book briefly describing the significance of the planets at the end of which Wierwille goes on to say
quote:
The above associations and meanings proposed for the planets cannot be affirmed with finality. However, they are very interesting when viewed in a Biblical light.
This whole area of the Word being written in the stars is starting to engage my attention in active inquiry. When JCOPS came out, it was too complicated for me - what with everything else coming at us at the speed of light all of which we were supposed to swallow, much getting caught in our throats.
But I am an English and a reading teacher, so I'm always dealing with the etymological origins of words (ideas) as clues to meaning, and the concept that "the ancient names of the stars have meanings which, when properly understood, make up the foundation of a true Biblical astronomy" revealing God's will is pulling me into a quest like The DaVinci Code or National Treasure; except, this quest might not be found in the fiction section - making it the quest for the true holy grail.
Even if parts of what I uncover wind up being false, the quest is still engaging and will still yield enduring nuggets.
JCOPS does seem to be one of the, if not the, best documented of Wierwille's books; nevertheless, I'm having a bit of a hard time dealing with one of Wierwille's works - God forbid Wierwille should have something of value associated with his doing. What then? Although a fig tree cannot bear olive berries, nor a fountain both yield salt water and fresh; nevertheless, out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. James says that these things ought not to be so, not that they are not so, for they are so. Scary thought!
Perhaps I'm ridding myself of a prejudice, a root of bitterness, which, springing up, has defiled many.
The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
That August 27 "encounter" happened in 2003. Mars did not, and never will, appear anywhere near as bright as the full moon. The full moon appears thousands of times brighter than Mars at its brightest.
That August 27 "encounter" happened in 2003. Mars did not, and never will, appear anywhere near as bright as the full moon. The full moon appears thousands of times brighter than Mars at its brightest.
2003, really? Bummer! Oops, sorry about that. Thanks, Long Gone.
I was figuring that the brightness thing is some sort of astronomical measurement which the author said measured "(next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky."
I figured that the moon, because of it size, would appear 1000s of times brighter than Mars, but that the naked eye, taking into consideration the difference in size, wouldn't be able to tell any difference in the actual brightness of the objects. Yes? No? Maybe? Bulldinky? I suppose size is a factor in the perceived brightness of an object. Maybe perception depends too much on the eye of the beholder to say anything conclusive.
Thomas, it's not based on apparent size but both apparent size and apparent brightness depend, in part, on distance. The moon at it's brightest appears about 8000 times brighter than Mars at its brightest. The sun appears over 400,000 times brighter than the brightest full moon.
I agree that JCOPS is the best documented of Wierwille's books. It's logically put together for the most part, and he cites his sources. He blends astronomy, secular history, biblical commentary (i.e. Bullinger), with his own doctrine rather well, I think. The quote you posted about the meaning of the planets not be able to be "affirmed with finality" was interesting, he didn't often committ to print such qualifications.
However, the thing that always bothered me about the way TWI looked at JCOPS was that it was viewed as the final word on the subject, and EVERYTHING in it was regurgitated as if there could be NO OTHER possible explanation.
My first take on it was "Wow! This is cool - it sure is a plausible explanation!" , but didn't see that the chain of supposition was necessarily the ONLY answer.
Part of it goes back to Bullinger, IMHO much of "Witness of the Stars" is comprised of tenuous assumptions. One star in the constellation was called such-and-such in Arabic, so OF COURSE, the constellation of the rabbit REALLY should be the constellation of the victorious redeemer!
Another thing that has bugged me is the constellations. The 12 zodiacal groupings can be seen from anywhere in the world, however the arctic constellations, such as the Dippers and Draco, cannot be seen in the southern hemisphere, I believe below the tropic of Capricorn, just as there are southern constellation that cannot be seen up north. So this great "Word in the Stars" thing was only available for those who lived in the northern hemisphere?
One more thing: I'm not 100% convinced that Wierwille's dating of rulers was correct. There is too much uncertainty about dates, since there was not a universally recognized calendar, and years were usually counted from the beginning of a ruler's reign.
Okay...I'm done...except for an amusing anecdote.
When Wierwille was alive, he used to make the statement, after quoting from Psalms where it says that he stretches the empty spaces over the north or something like that - "...and that's why there are no stars in the north". I used to always scratch my head at that; what PART of the north is he talking about. Years later Martindale "clarified" matters by explaining that the "north" that Wierwille was referring to was the "gap" between the Big and Little Dippers that you can see on Bullinger's star map in "Witness of the Stars".
Well, go outside on a clear night, especially if you aren't too close to big city lights, and you can see that there ARE stars in the "gap". I figured that Wierwille must have meant that there are no CONSTELLATIONS in the far north of the sky, i.e. between the Dippers.
One night, a young man in our fellowship, fresh from a session of WayAP wher the "Word in the Stars" is covered, was babbling on about "no stars in the north", and how that empty "gap" extends infinitely far, and how God designed it that way...yada, yada, yada. I suggested to him and his parents that he was wrong, and invited them to go outside and observe the stars in the "gap".
Their answer was to ignore my offer, but to "ask the class coordinator" about it.
After asking the coordinator, they received the answer that back in the days when the bible was written there weren't high-powered telescopes, and additional stars had been discovered with those telescopes that had not been visible 2000 years ago.
*sigh*
I declined to point out that city lights and pollution DECREASED the number of stars that you could see with the naked eye, and GO OUTSIDE AND LOOK AND YOU'LL SEE THE FRIGGIN' STARS IN THE FRIGGIN' "GAP" WITH YOUR OWN FRIGGIN' EYES.
Nice post, Oak. Regarding TWI looking at the JCOPS as the final word on the subject, I believe all in TWI took their cue from Wierwille on that (as in almost everything else). It bugs me to see Wierwille coming to such conclusive conclusions in the book itself. Shortly before his quote that "...meanings proposed for the planets cannot be affirmed with finality," he said ""the ancient names of the stars have meanings which, when properly understood, make up the foundation of a true Biblical astronomy." Well, if the foundation of Biblical astronomy requires proper understanding of the meanings of the stars, and those meanings cannot be affirmed with finality, then how can he declare the results of his research with such finality?
That sort of thing seems to be rampant among Christians - it's a real pain. They'll be the first ones to tell you to watch out for those who spout their doctrine without thoroughly thinking it through just to get their own doctrine out, & in the next breath, they will do exactly that. Maybe everyone is subject to that kind of mental snow; I know as soon as point of view attains the status of a political base where people in unity are advocating for a position, the priority of truth goes out the window.
quote:
Part of it goes back to Bullinger, IMHO much of "Witness of the Stars" is comprised of tenuous assumptions. One star in the constellation was called such-and-such in Arabic, so OF COURSE, the constellation of the rabbit REALLY should be the constellation of the victorious redeemer!
Well, see now that's the hook that has me - not that it "OF COURSE" must be because of the Arabic language - because I know that language etymology, clue to meaning that it is, is subject to all the foibles of man - but if God really named the stars, now we have some leverage grounded in something absolute - even if we can't know it absolutely; I have no problem with that. Just give me a worm with some real blood in it, & I'll still bite. The nerves in my mouth are 1/2 dead from hooks tearing through them; screw the fear of the ravages of those who fish for (or should I say buy and sell) men. They won't hurt me much. My pool may seem small to some, but ain't nobody gonna pull me out of it with the promise of living water to those that have none, because I know my water lives, & it ain't for sale.
quote:
Another thing that has bugged me is the constellations. The 12 zodiacal groupings can be seen from anywhere in the world, however the arctic constellations, such as the Dippers and Draco, cannot be seen in the southern hemisphere, I believe below the tropic of Capricorn, just as there are southern constellation that cannot be seen up north. So this great "Word in the Stars" thing was only available for those who lived in the northern hemisphere?
Well, I don't know - no one is going to figure all that out without some help - I think - so, I figure Ethiopia - the garden & surrounding, those to whom the Word in the Stars was addressed - could & some cold understand the significance of the Word in the stars. The rest? Hey, the Native Americans have multiple prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. God doesn't leave any who reach out to him, & we can't limit God.
quote:
One more thing: I'm not 100% convinced that Wierwille's dating of rulers was correct. There is too much uncertainty about dates, since there was not a universally recognized calendar, and years were usually counted from the beginning of a ruler's reign.
Well, danged if I know. I don't need a universally recognized calendar - something people do generally recognize as a calendar will do for me. RedShift goes back to 6,000 BC - according to whom? Somebody, most people, apparently - that's okay with me. Universal recognition? Man, if I recognize my face in the mirror in the morning it is a good day - just kidding, but you get the point. Requiring universal recognition brings us back to the need for some jackass asserting that he knows that he knows that he knows.
RE: The North
Hahahaha, Oak, yeah, I went through a lot of that too - nothing in the North - how about the North Star?
I didn't even understand anything about Martindale's explanation of that at the time - or now.
My remark about a "universally recognized calendar" wasn't to suggest that such a thing is desired, only that, since we have not used the same calendar uninterrupted since biblical times, exact dating is sometimes not possible. If I remember correctly from JCOPS, Wierwille cites four dates put forth by historians as the eclipse that preceeded Herod the Great's death. When attempting to fix a date, scholars often have to cross-reference several systems of dating in order to come up with an estimate.
Regarding my reference to Arabic names of the stars, I agree that names in Arabic would give a fairly reliable indication of the "original" names (assuming that the "original" language was Semitic). What I have a hard time with is Bullinger's suppositions about these names being touted (by himself) as cold, hard, fact. Admittedly, he builds a fairly plausible framework from the clues given, but by no means is it set in stone.
I can definitely see, however, how the tidbits offered up by Bullinger's work, and Wierwille's JCOPS could whet the appetite for more, and undoubtetly COULD be the way things are.
My remark about a "universally recognized calendar" wasn't to suggest that such a thing is desired, only that, since we have not used the same calendar uninterrupted since biblical times, exact dating is sometimes not possible. If I remember correctly from JCOPS, Wierwille cites four dates put forth by historians as the eclipse that preceeded Herod the Great's death. When attempting to fix a date, scholars often have to cross-reference several systems of dating in order to come up with an estimate.
Well, I received my RedShift program & checked out my first heavenly happening from JCOPS, and it was right on the money.
Ckeer, I realy like the program - thanks for the tip. I don't think I'm going to "all conjunctions between Christs birth and resurection to see how they lined up with the ministries teachings, ckeer, so I guess yoiu onever will find out unless someone else does it. I wonder, though, if the original Semetic names are the key to understanding the foundation of biblical astronomy, I wonder if I can get some sense of the significance of some of the heavenly events going on these days from time to time. If the heavens declare the glory - have they stopped?
The Magi knew enough to read the birth of the Messiah to the extent that they travelled 1000s of miles to see him. VP said that we may never recover the extent of the understanding that they had in reading the stars, but - I don't know, its 4:30 AM & I haven't gotten to sleep yet, so I'm not going to take the time to look up exactly what he said, but basically, we can catch some of what's been lost in biblical astronomy. I know with limited knowledge, it's easy to read meaning in things that isn't there. But can I develope enough of a sense of this means of communication from God to pick up on something that's happening? Hmm, I don't know, but I'd like to know something along those lines if I can know anything. Knowing that I know that I know that I know? Well, who knows?
Tom- I don't think they have stopped and I supect that the ancient names are A key to understanding the foundation of biblical astronomy.
I think that part of what one would need to do to develop a sense of this method of communication is to relate known or likely historical and biblical dates to conjunctions/ oppositions of the stars.
Both in old and new testament times. It would be similar to the idea of the Rosetta stone.
Try looking at the time line before the crucifixion through pentecost see what pops out.
Has anyone heard of a planet that is supposed to be large (like the moon is large) and seen in the next few days?
I don't know, but maybe this is what you're talking about - this is from the stargazer guy show:
To Be Aired : Monday 7/18/2005 through Sunday 7/24/2005
"Use the Moon To Find Mars Which Is Now Brighter
Than Almost All The Stars In The Sky"
Horkheimer: Greetings, greetings fellow star gazers. Next week on Wednesday and Thursday July 27th and 28th you'll be able to use the Moon to find Mars which is racing towards Earth and will be at its very closest and absolutely spectacular on Halloween. It is already 6 times brighter than it was at the beginning of the year and is now brighter than all but two of the brightest stars. Let me show you.
O.K., we've got our skies set up for 1 a.m. your local time any night this week looking due east where the brightest thing you'll see will be a reddish orange light, our old friend 4,000 mile wide Mars a planet almost exactly half as wide as planet Earth. Currently only five objects are brighter, the stars Sirius and Canopus, the planets Jupiter and Venus and our Moon. And if you haven't started to watch Mars on a regular basis now is the time to begin because Mars is hurtling towards us at breakneck speeds and will be brighter than any star in the sky and exceeded only by the Moon and Venus on Halloween when it reaches its brightest and closest to planet Earth until the year 2018. At the beginning of this year on January 1st it was 209 million miles away but this week it is 126 million miles closer only 83 million miles away. And if you watch it at least once a week from now through October you'll be absolutely blown away as it steadily brightens!
And fortunately if you're one of those people who has a problem finding the planets, one or two nights every month you'll be able to use the Moon to help you locate Mars. In fact next Wednesday July 27 at 1 a.m. you'll be able to see a 21 day old Moon only 6 degrees away from Mars which is roughly 12 full Moon widths away at which time the Moon will be 234 thousand miles away while Mars will be 79 1/2 million miles away. But if you go out just 4 hours later at 5 a.m. before sunrise Mars and the Moon will be much higher but the Moon will be only 5 degrees away from Mars, 4 full Moon widths closer and Mars will have raced a hundred thousand miles closer to Earth, only 79 million 400 thousand miles away. But if it's cloudy Wednesday, on Thursday morning you'll have another chance to use the Moon to find Mars because at 1 a.m. Thursday the 28th the Moon will have moved to the other side of Mars and will be only 8 degrees away. Plus to show you just how fast Mars is racing toward us, in just one day Mars will be half a million miles closer less than 79 million miles away. Wow!!
So start your Mars watch now. Go out around 1 a.m. any night this week and next, and it will be just above the eastern horizon and to find it super easy use the Moon as a finder on Wednesday the 27th at 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. and on Thursday the 28th at 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. Believe me if you watch Mars only once every couple of weeks you'll be absolutely astonished at how it brightens because as I said by Halloween when it's at its brightest it will be 6 times brighter than it is right now and it's already 6 times brighter now than it was in January. Keep looking up!
Interesting - the last few days the moon has been eclipsing the star Antares. I googled "Antares Semitic," the Semitic names supposedly the clue to meaning. Apparently the Semitic name is from the root Kolob (the same is true for three other stars as well).
Literally, the root "Kolob" means heart, center, or middle.
Some Mormons think the star literally is where God lives.
Others, figuring that God doesn't live within the confines of time, think that symbolically the star represents Jesus Christ - where God lives.
Some of the etymological (concerning the study of the sources and development of words) lines drawn that I read seem pretty sure - others seem rather iffy.
If this meaning of Antares has some truth to it, what would it mean that the moon eclipses it? People's feelings, natural man, or feminine side is taking precedence over Jesus Christ in our culture?
And what would it mean that next on the event horizon is the near approach of Mars, "the Archangel Michael, whom God commissions to stand and fight for His people" is coming into close engagement in battle for us (according the meaning of Mars in JCOPS)? To help us against the spiritual forces behind the humanitarian philosophical tide that is washing the salt from the earth and turning people into into weak, one world government sheep?
Rock on, Michael!
Who knows? I can see where this sort of thing can turn into fantasy, guesswork, and Astrology.
But the heavens still declare God's glory, & I'm still intrigued by the notion that the sheep (different kind of sheep - I realize we are not sheep) still hear the true master's voice, and that with the guideline of the Word to keep me from getting too far off course, I can develop a further feel for His glory by what's going on by observing the heavens.
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TheInvisibleDan
Tom,
I haven't done any of this, but I was hoping Zix would drop in on this thread to share some of his incredible insight in this subject, and perhaps recommend some addional programs...
Danny
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ckeer
Tom- I used to have a program called red shift which did what you are talking about.
Here is a link to the latest version of redshift
Years ago I did wind it back to the events talked about in promised seed and it seemed to display them accurately.
One time I set it to 3pm on the day Christ was crucified according to JC our passover. It appeared that the planets were in interesting positions. I don't remember exactly what but I think one was directly overhead of Jerusalem and in conjuction with a star named in Bullingers book and another star was over the horizon and directly underneath erusalem and in conjunction with another named star in a constelation.
It occured to me that it might be interesting to list all conjunctions between Christs birth and resurection to see how they lined up with the ministries teachings. never got around to it and now never will but it would be kinda cool.
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Tom
I, also, was hoping Zix would show up, but I wanted to leave it open to whomever.
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Tom
Thanks a lot, ckeer; I just purchased the latest version of RedShift off Ebay for $18.99, including shipping - thanks for the tip; I'm looking forward to it.
Hafta take a look - I'll let you know what, if anything, I find - Tom
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lindyhopper
We did this at the Planetarium in Bmore years ago. Apparenly they did it manually which wasn't quiet as accurate but you could see what the books refer to.
It didn't look like much if you didn't know what you were looking at, just a bunch of stars and planets. Definitely not the giant laser beam shooting down into Bethlaham.
At the time it seemed like proof of something. Now, not so much, but I won't go into that.
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2beenthere2
Has anyone heard of a planet that is supposed to be large (like the moon is large) and seen in the next few days? My sister-in-law said this and I haven't seen anything listed on the science/tech sites on MSNBC nor at the NASA sites. (I thought it would be cool if it were Jupiter) and the next day she said it was supposed to be Jupiter. She is no Way person...just your average joe. Jupiter is the Kings' planet. What say u? Was hoping that Zixar would be discussing it.
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ckeer
I think you are talking about mars, I think it is supposed to be as close to earth now as it ever gets but not as big as the moon but almost as bright
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Tom
By WANDA WALKER for the Beauregard Daily News
Copy Editor
[Ms. Walker wrote about War of the Worlds in which Martians decide to invade Earth at the point when the planet is closest to Earth, then she wrote...] In real life, the Red Planet is going to be the closest to earth in recorded history. Earth is catching up with Mars in a close encounter.
Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the last 5,000 years, but it may be as long at 60,000 years before it happens again.
The encounter will culminate on Aug. 27, when Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles of the Earth and will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will appear 25.11 arch seconds wide, at a modest 75-power magnification.
Mars will look as bright as the full moon to the naked eye and will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August it will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach it's azimuth at about 3 a.m. By the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30 a.m.
Children of all ages will enjoy watching at the beginning of August to see Mars grow progressively brighter and brighter throughout the month.
No one alive today will ever see this again.
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2beenthere2
Thanks for the update!! So, what is the biblical significance re:Mars? (not Tom Cruise I know). Is there any??
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Tom
Regarding the significance of Mars, this is from JCOPS:
That is from a section in the book briefly describing the significance of the planets at the end of which Wierwille goes on to say
This whole area of the Word being written in the stars is starting to engage my attention in active inquiry. When JCOPS came out, it was too complicated for me - what with everything else coming at us at the speed of light all of which we were supposed to swallow, much getting caught in our throats.
But I am an English and a reading teacher, so I'm always dealing with the etymological origins of words (ideas) as clues to meaning, and the concept that "the ancient names of the stars have meanings which, when properly understood, make up the foundation of a true Biblical astronomy" revealing God's will is pulling me into a quest like The DaVinci Code or National Treasure; except, this quest might not be found in the fiction section - making it the quest for the true holy grail.
Even if parts of what I uncover wind up being false, the quest is still engaging and will still yield enduring nuggets.
JCOPS does seem to be one of the, if not the, best documented of Wierwille's books; nevertheless, I'm having a bit of a hard time dealing with one of Wierwille's works - God forbid Wierwille should have something of value associated with his doing. What then? Although a fig tree cannot bear olive berries, nor a fountain both yield salt water and fresh; nevertheless, out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. James says that these things ought not to be so, not that they are not so, for they are so. Scary thought!
Perhaps I'm ridding myself of a prejudice, a root of bitterness, which, springing up, has defiled many.
The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Not making excuses. There is no excuse.
Peace,
Tom
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LG
That August 27 "encounter" happened in 2003. Mars did not, and never will, appear anywhere near as bright as the full moon. The full moon appears thousands of times brighter than Mars at its brightest.
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Tom
2003, really? Bummer! Oops, sorry about that. Thanks, Long Gone.
I was figuring that the brightness thing is some sort of astronomical measurement which the author said measured "(next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky."
I figured that the moon, because of it size, would appear 1000s of times brighter than Mars, but that the naked eye, taking into consideration the difference in size, wouldn't be able to tell any difference in the actual brightness of the objects. Yes? No? Maybe? Bulldinky? I suppose size is a factor in the perceived brightness of an object. Maybe perception depends too much on the eye of the beholder to say anything conclusive.
Anyway, thanks again.
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LG
Thomas, it's not based on apparent size but both apparent size and apparent brightness depend, in part, on distance. The moon at it's brightest appears about 8000 times brighter than Mars at its brightest. The sun appears over 400,000 times brighter than the brightest full moon.
This Wikipedia article gives a pretty good explanation.
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Oakspear
Thomas:
I agree that JCOPS is the best documented of Wierwille's books. It's logically put together for the most part, and he cites his sources. He blends astronomy, secular history, biblical commentary (i.e. Bullinger), with his own doctrine rather well, I think. The quote you posted about the meaning of the planets not be able to be "affirmed with finality" was interesting, he didn't often committ to print such qualifications.
However, the thing that always bothered me about the way TWI looked at JCOPS was that it was viewed as the final word on the subject, and EVERYTHING in it was regurgitated as if there could be NO OTHER possible explanation.
My first take on it was "Wow! This is cool - it sure is a plausible explanation!" , but didn't see that the chain of supposition was necessarily the ONLY answer.
Part of it goes back to Bullinger, IMHO much of "Witness of the Stars" is comprised of tenuous assumptions. One star in the constellation was called such-and-such in Arabic, so OF COURSE, the constellation of the rabbit REALLY should be the constellation of the victorious redeemer!
Another thing that has bugged me is the constellations. The 12 zodiacal groupings can be seen from anywhere in the world, however the arctic constellations, such as the Dippers and Draco, cannot be seen in the southern hemisphere, I believe below the tropic of Capricorn, just as there are southern constellation that cannot be seen up north. So this great "Word in the Stars" thing was only available for those who lived in the northern hemisphere?
One more thing: I'm not 100% convinced that Wierwille's dating of rulers was correct. There is too much uncertainty about dates, since there was not a universally recognized calendar, and years were usually counted from the beginning of a ruler's reign.
Okay...I'm done...except for an amusing anecdote.
When Wierwille was alive, he used to make the statement, after quoting from Psalms where it says that he stretches the empty spaces over the north or something like that - "...and that's why there are no stars in the north". I used to always scratch my head at that; what PART of the north is he talking about. Years later Martindale "clarified" matters by explaining that the "north" that Wierwille was referring to was the "gap" between the Big and Little Dippers that you can see on Bullinger's star map in "Witness of the Stars".
Well, go outside on a clear night, especially if you aren't too close to big city lights, and you can see that there ARE stars in the "gap". I figured that Wierwille must have meant that there are no CONSTELLATIONS in the far north of the sky, i.e. between the Dippers.
One night, a young man in our fellowship, fresh from a session of WayAP wher the "Word in the Stars" is covered, was babbling on about "no stars in the north", and how that empty "gap" extends infinitely far, and how God designed it that way...yada, yada, yada. I suggested to him and his parents that he was wrong, and invited them to go outside and observe the stars in the "gap".
Their answer was to ignore my offer, but to "ask the class coordinator" about it.
After asking the coordinator, they received the answer that back in the days when the bible was written there weren't high-powered telescopes, and additional stars had been discovered with those telescopes that had not been visible 2000 years ago.
*sigh*
I declined to point out that city lights and pollution DECREASED the number of stars that you could see with the naked eye, and GO OUTSIDE AND LOOK AND YOU'LL SEE THE FRIGGIN' STARS IN THE FRIGGIN' "GAP" WITH YOUR OWN FRIGGIN' EYES.
*sigh*
Oh yeah, revelation trumps the five senses
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dmiller
THIS SITE is by far the best I have found about this subject. Be sure to click on
*free online books*, to see Dr. Ernest Martin's book "THE STAR THAT ASTONISHED THE WORLD".
:)-->
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Tom
Very cool site with a lot of valuable things to say about a lot of things other than the current topic - thanks much Dmiller; it's a keeper.
Tom
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Tom
Nice post, Oak. Regarding TWI looking at the JCOPS as the final word on the subject, I believe all in TWI took their cue from Wierwille on that (as in almost everything else). It bugs me to see Wierwille coming to such conclusive conclusions in the book itself. Shortly before his quote that "...meanings proposed for the planets cannot be affirmed with finality," he said ""the ancient names of the stars have meanings which, when properly understood, make up the foundation of a true Biblical astronomy." Well, if the foundation of Biblical astronomy requires proper understanding of the meanings of the stars, and those meanings cannot be affirmed with finality, then how can he declare the results of his research with such finality?
That sort of thing seems to be rampant among Christians - it's a real pain. They'll be the first ones to tell you to watch out for those who spout their doctrine without thoroughly thinking it through just to get their own doctrine out, & in the next breath, they will do exactly that. Maybe everyone is subject to that kind of mental snow; I know as soon as point of view attains the status of a political base where people in unity are advocating for a position, the priority of truth goes out the window.
Well, see now that's the hook that has me - not that it "OF COURSE" must be because of the Arabic language - because I know that language etymology, clue to meaning that it is, is subject to all the foibles of man - but if God really named the stars, now we have some leverage grounded in something absolute - even if we can't know it absolutely; I have no problem with that. Just give me a worm with some real blood in it, & I'll still bite. The nerves in my mouth are 1/2 dead from hooks tearing through them; screw the fear of the ravages of those who fish for (or should I say buy and sell) men. They won't hurt me much. My pool may seem small to some, but ain't nobody gonna pull me out of it with the promise of living water to those that have none, because I know my water lives, & it ain't for sale.
Well, I don't know - no one is going to figure all that out without some help - I think - so, I figure Ethiopia - the garden & surrounding, those to whom the Word in the Stars was addressed - could & some cold understand the significance of the Word in the stars. The rest? Hey, the Native Americans have multiple prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. God doesn't leave any who reach out to him, & we can't limit God.
Well, danged if I know. I don't need a universally recognized calendar - something people do generally recognize as a calendar will do for me. RedShift goes back to 6,000 BC - according to whom? Somebody, most people, apparently - that's okay with me. Universal recognition? Man, if I recognize my face in the mirror in the morning it is a good day - just kidding, but you get the point. Requiring universal recognition brings us back to the need for some jackass asserting that he knows that he knows that he knows.
RE: The North
Hahahaha, Oak, yeah, I went through a lot of that too - nothing in the North - how about the North Star?
I didn't even understand anything about Martindale's explanation of that at the time - or now.
Creepy,
Tom
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Oakspear
My remark about a "universally recognized calendar" wasn't to suggest that such a thing is desired, only that, since we have not used the same calendar uninterrupted since biblical times, exact dating is sometimes not possible. If I remember correctly from JCOPS, Wierwille cites four dates put forth by historians as the eclipse that preceeded Herod the Great's death. When attempting to fix a date, scholars often have to cross-reference several systems of dating in order to come up with an estimate.
Regarding my reference to Arabic names of the stars, I agree that names in Arabic would give a fairly reliable indication of the "original" names (assuming that the "original" language was Semitic). What I have a hard time with is Bullinger's suppositions about these names being touted (by himself) as cold, hard, fact. Admittedly, he builds a fairly plausible framework from the clues given, but by no means is it set in stone.
I can definitely see, however, how the tidbits offered up by Bullinger's work, and Wierwille's JCOPS could whet the appetite for more, and undoubtetly COULD be the way things are.
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Tom
Okay, gotcha.
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Tom
Well, I received my RedShift program & checked out my first heavenly happening from JCOPS, and it was right on the money.
Ckeer, I realy like the program - thanks for the tip. I don't think I'm going to "all conjunctions between Christs birth and resurection to see how they lined up with the ministries teachings, ckeer, so I guess yoiu onever will find out unless someone else does it. I wonder, though, if the original Semetic names are the key to understanding the foundation of biblical astronomy, I wonder if I can get some sense of the significance of some of the heavenly events going on these days from time to time. If the heavens declare the glory - have they stopped?
The Magi knew enough to read the birth of the Messiah to the extent that they travelled 1000s of miles to see him. VP said that we may never recover the extent of the understanding that they had in reading the stars, but - I don't know, its 4:30 AM & I haven't gotten to sleep yet, so I'm not going to take the time to look up exactly what he said, but basically, we can catch some of what's been lost in biblical astronomy. I know with limited knowledge, it's easy to read meaning in things that isn't there. But can I develope enough of a sense of this means of communication from God to pick up on something that's happening? Hmm, I don't know, but I'd like to know something along those lines if I can know anything. Knowing that I know that I know that I know? Well, who knows?
Tom
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ckeer
Tom- I don't think they have stopped and I supect that the ancient names are A key to understanding the foundation of biblical astronomy.
I think that part of what one would need to do to develop a sense of this method of communication is to relate known or likely historical and biblical dates to conjunctions/ oppositions of the stars.
Both in old and new testament times. It would be similar to the idea of the Rosetta stone.
Try looking at the time line before the crucifixion through pentecost see what pops out.
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Tom
I don't know, but maybe this is what you're talking about - this is from the stargazer guy show:
To Be Aired : Monday 7/18/2005 through Sunday 7/24/2005
"Use the Moon To Find Mars Which Is Now Brighter
Than Almost All The Stars In The Sky"
Horkheimer: Greetings, greetings fellow star gazers. Next week on Wednesday and Thursday July 27th and 28th you'll be able to use the Moon to find Mars which is racing towards Earth and will be at its very closest and absolutely spectacular on Halloween. It is already 6 times brighter than it was at the beginning of the year and is now brighter than all but two of the brightest stars. Let me show you.
O.K., we've got our skies set up for 1 a.m. your local time any night this week looking due east where the brightest thing you'll see will be a reddish orange light, our old friend 4,000 mile wide Mars a planet almost exactly half as wide as planet Earth. Currently only five objects are brighter, the stars Sirius and Canopus, the planets Jupiter and Venus and our Moon. And if you haven't started to watch Mars on a regular basis now is the time to begin because Mars is hurtling towards us at breakneck speeds and will be brighter than any star in the sky and exceeded only by the Moon and Venus on Halloween when it reaches its brightest and closest to planet Earth until the year 2018. At the beginning of this year on January 1st it was 209 million miles away but this week it is 126 million miles closer only 83 million miles away. And if you watch it at least once a week from now through October you'll be absolutely blown away as it steadily brightens!
And fortunately if you're one of those people who has a problem finding the planets, one or two nights every month you'll be able to use the Moon to help you locate Mars. In fact next Wednesday July 27 at 1 a.m. you'll be able to see a 21 day old Moon only 6 degrees away from Mars which is roughly 12 full Moon widths away at which time the Moon will be 234 thousand miles away while Mars will be 79 1/2 million miles away. But if you go out just 4 hours later at 5 a.m. before sunrise Mars and the Moon will be much higher but the Moon will be only 5 degrees away from Mars, 4 full Moon widths closer and Mars will have raced a hundred thousand miles closer to Earth, only 79 million 400 thousand miles away. But if it's cloudy Wednesday, on Thursday morning you'll have another chance to use the Moon to find Mars because at 1 a.m. Thursday the 28th the Moon will have moved to the other side of Mars and will be only 8 degrees away. Plus to show you just how fast Mars is racing toward us, in just one day Mars will be half a million miles closer less than 79 million miles away. Wow!!
So start your Mars watch now. Go out around 1 a.m. any night this week and next, and it will be just above the eastern horizon and to find it super easy use the Moon as a finder on Wednesday the 27th at 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. and on Thursday the 28th at 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. Believe me if you watch Mars only once every couple of weeks you'll be absolutely astonished at how it brightens because as I said by Halloween when it's at its brightest it will be 6 times brighter than it is right now and it's already 6 times brighter now than it was in January. Keep looking up!
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Tom
Interesting - the last few days the moon has been eclipsing the star Antares. I googled "Antares Semitic," the Semitic names supposedly the clue to meaning. Apparently the Semitic name is from the root Kolob (the same is true for three other stars as well).
Literally, the root "Kolob" means heart, center, or middle.
Some Mormons think the star literally is where God lives.
Others, figuring that God doesn't live within the confines of time, think that symbolically the star represents Jesus Christ - where God lives.
Some of the etymological (concerning the study of the sources and development of words) lines drawn that I read seem pretty sure - others seem rather iffy.
If this meaning of Antares has some truth to it, what would it mean that the moon eclipses it? People's feelings, natural man, or feminine side is taking precedence over Jesus Christ in our culture?
And what would it mean that next on the event horizon is the near approach of Mars, "the Archangel Michael, whom God commissions to stand and fight for His people" is coming into close engagement in battle for us (according the meaning of Mars in JCOPS)? To help us against the spiritual forces behind the humanitarian philosophical tide that is washing the salt from the earth and turning people into into weak, one world government sheep?
Rock on, Michael!
Who knows? I can see where this sort of thing can turn into fantasy, guesswork, and Astrology.
But the heavens still declare God's glory, & I'm still intrigued by the notion that the sheep (different kind of sheep - I realize we are not sheep) still hear the true master's voice, and that with the guideline of the Word to keep me from getting too far off course, I can develop a further feel for His glory by what's going on by observing the heavens.
Tom
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