It just gets my goat when I hear people who don't know anything about it talking about how "abusive" it is. Geeeze. I've seen real abuse, and Momentous is not it.
This is why I brought up my experience in athletics training. Our coaches did things to us then that by todays standards for "training," especially at the high school level are generally considered "abusive."
They DID yell at us. One coach would, as he was less than an inch from your faceguard, yelling at you for your indescretion(s) on the field would hit the side of your helmet with his baseball-style hat. The "PLINK!!" of the button on the top of his hat as it hit your helmet would make your ears ring, Oww!
Abusive? We used to laugh in the locker room about who would be next and scare the rookies with our experiences of how occasionally he'd spit while yelling, "S#!t, S#!t, S#!t!" He'd always say it 3 times - - in groups of three.
We learned to deal with that kind of intensity. We learned there was "a method to his madness." We learned to BE that intense on the field. We were (and they still are) perennial champions, "always" make the playoffs never out of the hunt for the Western PA and state Championship til the "fat lady sings and time runs out." We rarely "lose" you must be "the better team" on a given night than we.
My point is not to relive old highschool days or brag. Its to illustrate that there are times and areas of performance in this life where "there is a method to the madness." Every thing ISN'T for every body.
The simple facts of this matter prove that just because people had good experiences doesn't make Momnetus "great," nor do the bad experiences of others make it "abuse."
What's really interesting to me, and maybe even scary, is how many CES people got so involved /w Momentus.
Was there like some general assumption that CES people, (as in X-TWI people) have a general need for a "cleansing thing" like Momentus claims to be?
OR.
DID it spread through CES like the "fad of the day" used to spread through TWI?
OR.
Was it something else?
My basic thinking about CES was that it was too much like TWI "was." I felt after leaving TWI that I wouldn't be free of "whatever" TWI thinking were I to still do the "same things - - only different." My "fear" was that CES, although clearly "better" than TWI, might not actually be different.
Does that make sense? I wasn't sure how much subconscious "junk" might be lurking in my brain. I wanted to be sure that I was really thinking for myself, and not just regurgitating the TWI-based "thoughts" of someone else.
To me, surety required a complete change - everything remotely related to TWI. I figured if the "God thing" was real God's word would live in me as it says it does. I wasn't sure if I were studying the Bible or repetitively indoctrinating myself with "wayism's" and "way-head."
I wasn't sure that CES could help or detur the cleansing process.
In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be?
People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer.
Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???" I'm GLAD you harp on stuff like you do Garth... maybe if we'd all have harped on our personal peeves more, back then...?
Should we call CES, "TWI...Continued; Different, yet still the same ???"
This is not an accusation, but... is "history repeating itself" in CES?
I was never a CES-er even in the remotest sense, but I do get the impression it's a thing that sort of ran through the group, much like the personal prophecy thing I've heard about.
Here I go commenting on a group with which I have no experience! I must have a death wish. I carefull paint a bullseye on my butt then whistle for Garth to come & get it.
Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???" I'm GLAD you harp on stuff like you do Garth... maybe if we'd all have harped on our personal peeves more, back then...?
But Howard, I'd (supposedly) be 'projecting' then. ;)-->
Evan,
The 'selfworthlessness' comment was referring to this 'gospel' that we humans are all worthless in and of ourselves (a belief that I no longer hold to, another reason why I now find Calvinism and other like forms of fundamentalism so repugnant; hope you aren't too shocked) that Momentus seems to have a twisted version of (of an already twisted opinion IMHO).
Your own endeavor to 'project', by trying the 'project' argument on me, is duly noted. However, please speak for yourself, thank you.
Kinda like that one scene in Alice's Restaurant where, in the Army, you're 'inspected, injected, dejected, rejected, and see-lected'. (Or something to that effect; my old age hippy memory is going fast on me.
"You can have anything you want (exceptin' Alice) at Alice's Restaurant"
From a natural view, man has worth deriving from all sorts of quarters: wealth, intelligence, moral goodness, family fealty, etc.
From a spiritual point of view, unregenerate man has worth because (among other things): He is made in the image of God. He is the object of God's undying and unwavering love.
But, man is incapable of attaining righteousness before God in and of himself. For this he needs the sacrificial & substitutionary work of Christ on his behalf. Which is received by grace through faith, through no works of his own.
Just thought I'd clear things up for you since it appeared you might need a bit of help.
And I won't derail this thread by pointing out that what I see from various Calvinists and old John Calvin himself varies (often widely) from what you say about his theology.
Perhaps you're using your terms too loosely. Righteousness & worth are not comparable, certqainly not theologically. Remember, it was Luther as a Catholic monk who suffered under his overwhelming sense of worthlessness. Understanding faith and grace removed that.
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I of CES would adress the issue of CES being, maybe, too much like TWI in terms of following the latest fad of the day. It seems like Momentus was "the latest thing" thing of the day at one point in CES???
Does that kind of thinking bother anyone but me?
I know people are apt to play follow the leader and want to be a part of the "in thing" (Did anybody see "the Donald" on the Emmy's the other day?) but from when I'm sitting that stuff made CES a little scary for me. In terms of history repeating itself.
CES promoted Momentus very heavily in the late 90's after the Board took the class and got tremendous breakthroughs in their own life. However, they backed off when they were told about others taking the class and having severe problems and reactions. My experience with those guys is that they tend to jump on the bandwagon rather quickly if it's something that's beneficial to them without really weighing the consequences.
Also, the promotion was faulty. People were told it would change their lives, that if you wanted to experience breakthroughs and get real about your life, you needed to take this. I even heard of people thinking that it would be like marriage counseling. God help them. There was a subtle undercurrent of, you've got to take this to be more godly, like us. Nothing obvious, like TWI, and nobody bullied anyone into taking it, but for people who were involved with TWI, some of the old mindsets would pop up in those situations.
I thought about taking Momentus because I heard the hype, but honestly, the idea of taking something that could possibly be that revealing scared the cr*p out of me. I'm like Groucho, I'll keep my sins and let God deal with me accordingly.
The leaders of CES (at least M#$k Gr!@ser) seem to thing they can recreate TWI in their ministry, only without the sins. I've heard them say it in meetings. They strongly support the "baby and the bathwater" analogy.
Yeah...I never took it and have a strong opinion about it...I guess that angers some folks...especially the ones who DID take it...and I understand that. I've never laid my head on the railroad tracks with a locomotive coming either...
...but I DID have a fairly extensive experience dealing with the folks who tried to recruit me to take it...I saw the group think...and as previously stated, they all took it because JAL gave it a thumbs up...no more thought was necessary for these clowns because of JAL's endorsement. They all got ****** at me when I told them JAL's endorsement wasn't enough for me...I wanted to look into it from other points of view...I went to the anti-Momentus sites and printed what I found...handed them out to all the Momentus grads and asked them to address the issues with me and answer my questions...seemed reasonable to me.
...But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you...
Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"...
Maybe I just fell in with the "wrong people"...but it also dawned on me...all these folks who were so convinced of Momentus, had also been convinced of the cult they all used to belong to...I began to see a pattern and decided to slip out the back door.
From what I gather, these trainings have varied somewhat in content and presentation, depending on where you took it. You pay your money and you take your chances...
I seem to recall a story of Jesus talking to a prostitute...as I recall, he didn't invoke any scream therapy, tell her to get out of the lifeboat, scream at her and play loud music until she was reduced to tears, give her homework assignments and tell her to go find her "buddy" but not until after she signed the hold harmless clause, he didn't make her revisit her sins and announce them to everybody in town...in fact I believe that he confronted those who were accusing her and he was then kind towards her and simply told her to sin no more and left her in peace...
I don't need to take Momentus to have a basic inderstanding of it's format and it's techniques, especially when there's plenty of negative testamonies from many of those who DID take it...
Momentus was supposed to be life changing and to put you on track. But didn't JAL step down or was put on hiatus for some indescretions?
I thought Momentus was supposed to make a person see the error of their past ways and stop doing what they did.
A friend of mine has gotten involved with Landmark. They're recruitment sounds the same....life changing and you will "get it" whatever that's supposed to mean. I told her that they're "not getting it" as in my money or time.
This is scary to me. I just don't like the heightened bandwagon mantality. How can I assume that ANYTHING I enjoyed is good for you?
Even with stuff like a movie. I can say, hey, I liked it, you should see it. People ususally say tell me about it. Then they may say, I think I might like that.
There is something scary to me about people who might say, "You're not cool cause you didn't go see that flick."
::::::::::::::snipped for brevity::::::::::::::::::::::
HOWEVER. There are definite aspects of God which certainly are to be feared, as in BEYOND respect. (Perhaps as we mature with God the "fear" aspect ripens to a healthy, reverent respect.) My children are scared to death of me - - at certian times. Like when they are out of line and they know that I KNOW about it. At those times they are not so much afraid of ME, their Dad as they are afraid of what consequence for their actions I will bring down upon them.<BR><BR>They still love me with all their hearts at that time too, as they have no doubt - no not one - that I LOVE THEM, even then. Even though they also know with the SAME lack of doubt that their loving Dad is about to bust loose the fires from DAD on their butt. <BR><BR>I have learned much, at least I THINK I have, about how God loves us and how HE wants us to view Him by how much I love my children and how I want them to see ME. I want SOOOOO badly for them all to be ALL the BEST that they can be, ALL the time. At times, I allow them to endure, what for them seems to be, great and unendurable pain. I will also rain down the pain on any of them, benevolently, for their ultimate benefit. They surely don't see my punishment, especially at the time, as beneficial to them. Ultimately I make sure that they at least hear it from me that what they viewed as a horrible experience, I put them through it, hopefully to grow them and make them stronger, better, etc. When I do that it PAINS me, but I do it with confident expectations that "it will be good for them."<BR><BR>My oldest son, gets into more trouble than any two of the others. Without fail, he will fall into my arms, hug me and tell me he loves me immediately after he's gone through even the worst and most intense "attitude adjustment" session. He's absolutely CONVINCED that I LOVE him. Then he gives his BEST effort to altering HIS behavior to avoid "the wrath of Dad" next time.<BR><BR>I think that's what God wants for us. I think He wants us to be afraid of "getting wrong." I think He wants us to be afraid of what He will allow or bring down on us when WE rebel or "get wrong," with Him, doing things outside of what we should do. All the while we're in full confidence that He will not KILL or DESTROY us while he's "spanking our rear."<BR><BR>While we're pulling out scriptures on the fear God concept... we should pull out the ones about tribulation and all of the good things that enduring it does for us. I was afraid of my Dad too. That fear inspired me to NEVER cross him. I made different, better decisions BECAUSE I was afraid of that man whom I knew loved me with everything he had. I think that fearing God in the same way inspires us to make better decisions regarding our "walk" with Him on this planet. "Count it all joy...
:::::::::::::snipped for brevity:::::::::::::::
Hi Howard,
That's great that you love you father and your children love you in light of being corrected or giving correction.
I too was afraid of my dad, but it caused me to hate my father, NOT LOVE HIM. My dad often used to the corporal punishment routine (as did my mother) more for their own personal anger management than for giving us correction. Often times I was given punishements for which I felt I didn't deserve, or I was given more punishment than was deemed necessary. In the case of my dad, his anger at me and my siblings was often alcohol induced. My mother (rest her soul) was such that TWI would have thought she was possessed with every devil spirit in the world, though I myself am convinced her problems were not necessarily of a spiritual nature. In short, I was an abused child.
Today I now love my father, but such a love is born out of forgiveness, not thanksgiving, because to this day I still am sick from the abusive (not to mention faulty religious) upbringing, and I'm still going through a healing process that will take the rest of my life (TWI did very little to help in that matter needless to say). Though I realize that God may have meant my experience for good, I do believe it's grace I didn't grow up to become infamous like Hitler, which I have often enteritained in fantasies before PFAL and for a good time after I left TWI.
I am convinced myself that no good God has a wrath at all, and that the wrath of God concept is purely an invention of sinful humans, who themselves are soaked in wrath. Wrath IMHO connotes an anger that is way out of control. Hitler was a classic example of one having great wrath. If God has a wrath then He has NO self-control. But our parents do tend to give us an example of God. So what happens when a child is abused by a parent, not only physically, but even sexually? What's his/her image of God? A few years after I left TWI, I went on an anti-God campaign, I actually had come to hate God. I obviously needed to see God's goodness for what it really is before I can really come to him. All I knew growing up was a tyrannical God.
It is important that we bring up children in the admonishment of the Lord correctly, and that the bible advises that we provoke not our children unto wrath, least they be discouraged.
I was going to say something here, but it's too late, and I'm not sure I can make a competant correlation between kids, and the 4 men (developementally disabled) that are under my care at the group home.
I will try to do so later. There is a connection there, but right now it escapes me. :(
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HCW
This is why I brought up my experience in athletics training. Our coaches did things to us then that by todays standards for "training," especially at the high school level are generally considered "abusive."
They DID yell at us. One coach would, as he was less than an inch from your faceguard, yelling at you for your indescretion(s) on the field would hit the side of your helmet with his baseball-style hat. The "PLINK!!" of the button on the top of his hat as it hit your helmet would make your ears ring, Oww!
Abusive? We used to laugh in the locker room about who would be next and scare the rookies with our experiences of how occasionally he'd spit while yelling, "S#!t, S#!t, S#!t!" He'd always say it 3 times - - in groups of three.
We learned to deal with that kind of intensity. We learned there was "a method to his madness." We learned to BE that intense on the field. We were (and they still are) perennial champions, "always" make the playoffs never out of the hunt for the Western PA and state Championship til the "fat lady sings and time runs out." We rarely "lose" you must be "the better team" on a given night than we.
My point is not to relive old highschool days or brag. Its to illustrate that there are times and areas of performance in this life where "there is a method to the madness." Every thing ISN'T for every body.
The simple facts of this matter prove that just because people had good experiences doesn't make Momnetus "great," nor do the bad experiences of others make it "abuse."
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TheEvan
Self-worthlessness, Garth? Me?
Could "we" be projecting just a teensy bit?
(If anything, I could use knocking down a notch or two...no danger to my sense of worth!)
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HCW
What's really interesting to me, and maybe even scary, is how many CES people got so involved /w Momentus.
Was there like some general assumption that CES people, (as in X-TWI people) have a general need for a "cleansing thing" like Momentus claims to be?
OR.
DID it spread through CES like the "fad of the day" used to spread through TWI?
OR.
Was it something else?
My basic thinking about CES was that it was too much like TWI "was." I felt after leaving TWI that I wouldn't be free of "whatever" TWI thinking were I to still do the "same things - - only different." My "fear" was that CES, although clearly "better" than TWI, might not actually be different.
Does that make sense? I wasn't sure how much subconscious "junk" might be lurking in my brain. I wanted to be sure that I was really thinking for myself, and not just regurgitating the TWI-based "thoughts" of someone else.
To me, surety required a complete change - everything remotely related to TWI. I figured if the "God thing" was real God's word would live in me as it says it does. I wasn't sure if I were studying the Bible or repetitively indoctrinating myself with "wayism's" and "way-head."
I wasn't sure that CES could help or detur the cleansing process.
In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be?
People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer.
Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???" I'm GLAD you harp on stuff like you do Garth... maybe if we'd all have harped on our personal peeves more, back then...?
Should we call CES, "TWI...Continued; Different, yet still the same ???"
This is not an accusation, but... is "history repeating itself" in CES?
Scary.
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HCW
Get DOWN, Evan.
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TheEvan
I was never a CES-er even in the remotest sense, but I do get the impression it's a thing that sort of ran through the group, much like the personal prophecy thing I've heard about.
Here I go commenting on a group with which I have no experience! I must have a death wish. I carefull paint a bullseye on my butt then whistle for Garth to come & get it.
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GarthP2000
But Howard, I'd (supposedly) be 'projecting' then.
;)-->
Evan,
The 'selfworthlessness' comment was referring to this 'gospel' that we humans are all worthless in and of ourselves (a belief that I no longer hold to, another reason why I now find Calvinism and other like forms of fundamentalism so repugnant; hope you aren't too shocked) that Momentus seems to have a twisted version of (of an already twisted opinion IMHO).
Your own endeavor to 'project', by trying the 'project' argument on me, is duly noted. However, please speak for yourself, thank you.
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GarthP2000
I never had experience with Nazis either, yet that doesn't prohibit me ( or anyone else for that matter) to comment on them.
Your point being ... ?
Awwww, ain't that sweet. He likes me after all.
;)-->
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HCW
We all like you Garth!
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HCW
Uh, oh!
Now I'm speaking for other people, not just for myself too.
Sinner.
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HCW
If someone is projecting when they deflect what they say someone ELSE was projecting, is it projecting,
deflecting,
reflecting,
or just rejecting.
Or is all of the above rejecting, so my question is moot?
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GarthP2000
Kinda like that one scene in Alice's Restaurant where, in the Army, you're 'inspected, injected, dejected, rejected, and see-lected'. (Or something to that effect; my old age hippy memory is going fast on me.
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TheEvan
Garth, you've grossly mischaracterized Calvinism yet again.
Theologically speaking...
From a natural view, man has worth deriving from all sorts of quarters: wealth, intelligence, moral goodness, family fealty, etc.
From a spiritual point of view, unregenerate man has worth because (among other things): He is made in the image of God. He is the object of God's undying and unwavering love.
But, man is incapable of attaining righteousness before God in and of himself. For this he needs the sacrificial & substitutionary work of Christ on his behalf. Which is received by grace through faith, through no works of his own.
Just thought I'd clear things up for you since it appeared you might need a bit of help.
No need to thank me...
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GarthP2000
Not to worry. I won't.
:D-->
And I won't derail this thread by pointing out that what I see from various Calvinists and old John Calvin himself varies (often widely) from what you say about his theology.
'Nuff said about that.
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TheEvan
Perhaps you're using your terms too loosely. Righteousness & worth are not comparable, certqainly not theologically. Remember, it was Luther as a Catholic monk who suffered under his overwhelming sense of worthlessness. Understanding faith and grace removed that.
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HCW
Ok... but what did he think of Momentus? CES?
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I of CES would adress the issue of CES being, maybe, too much like TWI in terms of following the latest fad of the day. It seems like Momentus was "the latest thing" thing of the day at one point in CES???
Does that kind of thinking bother anyone but me?
I know people are apt to play follow the leader and want to be a part of the "in thing" (Did anybody see "the Donald" on the Emmy's the other day?) but from when I'm sitting that stuff made CES a little scary for me. In terms of history repeating itself.
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wwjesuslaughat
HCW,
CES promoted Momentus very heavily in the late 90's after the Board took the class and got tremendous breakthroughs in their own life. However, they backed off when they were told about others taking the class and having severe problems and reactions. My experience with those guys is that they tend to jump on the bandwagon rather quickly if it's something that's beneficial to them without really weighing the consequences.
Also, the promotion was faulty. People were told it would change their lives, that if you wanted to experience breakthroughs and get real about your life, you needed to take this. I even heard of people thinking that it would be like marriage counseling. God help them. There was a subtle undercurrent of, you've got to take this to be more godly, like us. Nothing obvious, like TWI, and nobody bullied anyone into taking it, but for people who were involved with TWI, some of the old mindsets would pop up in those situations.
I thought about taking Momentus because I heard the hype, but honestly, the idea of taking something that could possibly be that revealing scared the cr*p out of me. I'm like Groucho, I'll keep my sins and let God deal with me accordingly.
The leaders of CES (at least M#$k Gr!@ser) seem to thing they can recreate TWI in their ministry, only without the sins. I've heard them say it in meetings. They strongly support the "baby and the bathwater" analogy.
Hey, Hitler was a baby once.
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GarthP2000
Good one!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...I never took it and have a strong opinion about it...I guess that angers some folks...especially the ones who DID take it...and I understand that. I've never laid my head on the railroad tracks with a locomotive coming either...
...but I DID have a fairly extensive experience dealing with the folks who tried to recruit me to take it...I saw the group think...and as previously stated, they all took it because JAL gave it a thumbs up...no more thought was necessary for these clowns because of JAL's endorsement. They all got ****** at me when I told them JAL's endorsement wasn't enough for me...I wanted to look into it from other points of view...I went to the anti-Momentus sites and printed what I found...handed them out to all the Momentus grads and asked them to address the issues with me and answer my questions...seemed reasonable to me.
...But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you...
Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"...
Maybe I just fell in with the "wrong people"...but it also dawned on me...all these folks who were so convinced of Momentus, had also been convinced of the cult they all used to belong to...I began to see a pattern and decided to slip out the back door.
From what I gather, these trainings have varied somewhat in content and presentation, depending on where you took it. You pay your money and you take your chances...
I seem to recall a story of Jesus talking to a prostitute...as I recall, he didn't invoke any scream therapy, tell her to get out of the lifeboat, scream at her and play loud music until she was reduced to tears, give her homework assignments and tell her to go find her "buddy" but not until after she signed the hold harmless clause, he didn't make her revisit her sins and announce them to everybody in town...in fact I believe that he confronted those who were accusing her and he was then kind towards her and simply told her to sin no more and left her in peace...
I don't need to take Momentus to have a basic inderstanding of it's format and it's techniques, especially when there's plenty of negative testamonies from many of those who DID take it...
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Dilva
Momentus was supposed to be life changing and to put you on track. But didn't JAL step down or was put on hiatus for some indescretions?
I thought Momentus was supposed to make a person see the error of their past ways and stop doing what they did.
A friend of mine has gotten involved with Landmark. They're recruitment sounds the same....life changing and you will "get it" whatever that's supposed to mean. I told her that they're "not getting it" as in my money or time.
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HCW
Thanks folks.
This is scary to me. I just don't like the heightened bandwagon mantality. How can I assume that ANYTHING I enjoyed is good for you?
Even with stuff like a movie. I can say, hey, I liked it, you should see it. People ususally say tell me about it. Then they may say, I think I might like that.
There is something scary to me about people who might say, "You're not cool cause you didn't go see that flick."
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CKnapp3
Hi Howard,
That's great that you love you father and your children love you in light of being corrected or giving correction.
I too was afraid of my dad, but it caused me to hate my father, NOT LOVE HIM. My dad often used to the corporal punishment routine (as did my mother) more for their own personal anger management than for giving us correction. Often times I was given punishements for which I felt I didn't deserve, or I was given more punishment than was deemed necessary. In the case of my dad, his anger at me and my siblings was often alcohol induced. My mother (rest her soul) was such that TWI would have thought she was possessed with every devil spirit in the world, though I myself am convinced her problems were not necessarily of a spiritual nature. In short, I was an abused child.
Today I now love my father, but such a love is born out of forgiveness, not thanksgiving, because to this day I still am sick from the abusive (not to mention faulty religious) upbringing, and I'm still going through a healing process that will take the rest of my life (TWI did very little to help in that matter needless to say). Though I realize that God may have meant my experience for good, I do believe it's grace I didn't grow up to become infamous like Hitler, which I have often enteritained in fantasies before PFAL and for a good time after I left TWI.
I am convinced myself that no good God has a wrath at all, and that the wrath of God concept is purely an invention of sinful humans, who themselves are soaked in wrath. Wrath IMHO connotes an anger that is way out of control. Hitler was a classic example of one having great wrath. If God has a wrath then He has NO self-control. But our parents do tend to give us an example of God. So what happens when a child is abused by a parent, not only physically, but even sexually? What's his/her image of God? A few years after I left TWI, I went on an anti-God campaign, I actually had come to hate God. I obviously needed to see God's goodness for what it really is before I can really come to him. All I knew growing up was a tyrannical God.
It is important that we bring up children in the admonishment of the Lord correctly, and that the bible advises that we provoke not our children unto wrath, least they be discouraged.
Chuck
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dmiller
I was going to say something here, but it's too late, and I'm not sure I can make a competant correlation between kids, and the 4 men (developementally disabled) that are under my care at the group home.
I will try to do so later. There is a connection there, but right now it escapes me. :(
David
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