Soul = heart, emotions, intellect, feelings, basically the "what makes you, you". Our spirit can be holy and we can have eternal life but we can "work out our salvation" (wholeness) in the soul realm. We can "bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" and we can bring our soul in line with our spirit. It is interesting in the Breakthrough training to see so many examples of the difference between what we think we are about, and what we really manifest in the soul realm.
When marriage counseling this might be the difference between our stated values and our "familiars" from childhood (which we invariably live to some degree).
Hi Howard! Did you get my reply? I'm a first timer at that and am not sure how it went through. I will email privately when I get time or call when I have some chatting space. Sounds like you are busy with kids?
Dana is a she. She's a newbie here at the cafe but she's a wealth of knowledge, grace and level-headed insights about life in general and TWI to. And a really cool human being to boot. :)--> In fact her knowledge of TWI goes waaaay back to the beginnings of the "youth revolution" in the ministry.
She & I have been good friends since...??? I don't even remember when ... Dana? Mid to late 70's???
Yes Dana, I got your reply. Busy with kids is an understatement! I have some time this evening after 5pm, its our scheduled, do stuff at home night.
I never even heard of Momentus before this thread, but I subscribe to CES's magazine. There, back on topic.
It seems to me that Momentus is dangerous and unnecessary for Christian development. It's techniques are pyhcological based and even according to the trainers can cause harm in some cases.
They have a 2 page "hold harmlees" agreement that you have to sign that releases the trainers from any liability, even if they are negligent, in the case of " any personal, physical, psychological or emotional injuries you may suffer as a result of the TRAINING..."
This agreement also clearly warns of the possibility of the things noted above.
I would clasify Momentus/Breakthtrough as extreme phycological based training having little if anything to do with real Christian development other than a bit of lip service to Christ.
With all due respect Goey.... Have you personally seen or taken part in any Momentus Training?
I haven't. I'm not commenting on or detracting legitimacy from what they do/don't do.
However, I could say the same things you said about Momentus of high school football practice, wrestling practice or any athletic training, especially high level athletics.
I got physically injured many times during my high school athletic career - so much so the local emergency room staff knew me & my Mom by name... like "What'd he do NOW, Mrs. Walker?" :-)
I would say some of what our coaches put us through could be deemed, "extreme psychological based training."
In that light I wonder, speaking out of an admitted ignorant position on Momnetus, what do YOU mean by "extreme psychological training?"
Also. There are a LARGE number of CHURCHES in this country that one could say only do "lip service to Christ." I'm thinking one should provide some specifics, like, "They say this (honoring Christ with their lips) but their actions (this specific, undeniable thing you have witnessed them DO) prove that their heart is far from him.
I say this not to criticise you Goey, I'm speaking from a "prove all things, hold fast to the good perspective." Along with a healthy curiosity and faith that you can expand on your points a little.
You might then want to talk to those who have taken the 'training' AND have (had the tenacity to) give out the specific details about what actually went on in it.
I say 'had the tenacity to' because the Momentus trainers require you to not tell anyone what went on in those sessions; not anything that was taught, or what activities went on, regardless of whether or not anything abusive happened. (See what was said before about the aforementioned 'Hold Harmless' agreement they all had to sign, which *is* a tad unusual for a supposed 'Christian character' course such as it advertises itself, wouldn't you agree? Besides, how many school athletic organizations require that same kind of ((cough)) 'legal protection', hmmm?)
I have found some of their accounts rather hair-raising myself. As in, in the , 'holy ....' range. But hey, that's me. Your 'how strong is your stomach' mileage may vary.
Thank you Dana, for your thoughts on "soul" life, which doesn't really appear to depart significantly from what we had picked up from the Way in the past (e.g., their "Renewed Mind" class).
I cannot help wondering though - did we actually learn about "spiritual life" in the Way - did the Way really have such a grasp in this area as might be assumed?
There's no doubt that many - depending on their involvement in the organization - denied their own souls in pursuit of "spiritual" things - but was this the intended outcome, or had many of us ended up merely neglecting or even exchanging our "soul life" for the "soul-interests" of the organization?
I have read many posts throughout this forum to the effect of folks, upon leaving the organization, rediscovering and learning again simply how to "be themselves" - warts and all.
That helps me see Goey's point more clearly. Yes. I'd agree about the "Christian character," hold harmless remark. It kinda reminds me of what folks say about nightclubs that have armed security guards being "safe."
They have armed security because they NEED it. AND. How safe can it be if they need armed security?
Catch 23 Maybe?
The Hold harmless thing does strike me as a little suspicious.... How about, "Don't harm US, we'll harm YOU?"
Would I be safe to think of Momentus as a sort of Tony Robbins meets Bootcamp in the name of Jesus?
With all due respect Goey.... Have you personally seen or taken part in any Momentus Training?
Nope, I haven't. But then again do I really need to when so much information and first hand testimony is available?
quote:
I haven't. I'm not commenting on or detracting legitimacy from what they do/don't do.
I am not afraid to comment. I think it's bunk.
quote:
However, I could say the same things you said about Momentus of high school football practice, wrestling practice or any athletic training, especially high level athletics.
Apples and oranges. The athetic comparision does not work well here. You pretty much know what to expect in sports training. Momentus is different. These folks delve deep into your psyche and sometimes the outcome is very ugly.
quote:
I got physically injured many times during my high school athletic career - so much so the local emergency room staff knew me & my Mom by name... like "What'd he do NOW, Mrs. Walker?" :-)
I would say some of what our coaches put us through could be deemed, "extreme psychological based training."
In that light I wonder, speaking out of an admitted ignorant position on Momnetus, what do YOU mean by "extreme psychological training?"
Do a Google search for "Momentus training". You may get enlightened. It's not football.
quote:
Also. There are a LARGE number of CHURCHES in this country that one could say only do "lip service to Christ." I'm thinking one should provide some specifics, like, "They say this (honoring Christ with their lips) but their actions (this specific, undeniable thing you have witnessed them DO) prove that their heart is far from him.
The fact that there are churches that only give lip service to Christ does not redeem Momentus in anyway. It makes is all the worse, especially if a person taking it is already attached to a lip service ministry. What's to gain?
quote:
I say this not to criticise you Goey, I'm speaking from a "prove all things, hold fast to the good perspective." Along with a healthy curiosity and faith that you can expand on your points a little.
Some things do not have to be experienced to be proven lacking, harmful, or inappropriate. I have probably done 10 hours of research on Momentus/ Mindspring over the last few years. I have talked with folks who have taken it - both those that liked it and those that didn't. So my opinion is not comming from a postion of ignorance. We have witnesses who have taken the training, many who tremendously disliked it or were emotionally harmed by it. Others say its great. I don't know the percentages and I don't really care who likes it. The question is, are the perceived benefits worth the risk? Personally, I don't think so.
Even if my best friend took it and recomended it, there is enough evidence and testimony out there for me to say it is still dangerous and quite unnecessary for Christian development.
But there is on thing for certain , and that is that Momentus is a money maker for the promoters/trainers.
And it beats the heck out of me how a Christian group like CES could have gotten so wrapped up with something like Momentus that it was almost "required" if you wanted to fit in and be respected. Kinda reminds me of TWI and "going Corps".
I think the point of Momentus training that is mised here is personal responsibility and accountibility. That is why there is a need for "hold harmless documents" - primarily to get the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter.
I find that is a primary need in therapy. Many folks simply want to blame others for their outcome and they miss their own opportunity to be and do what they want and need to do in life. It's sad but if you read some Greasespot posts with this in mind, you might see a tendancy to blame others for life situations. Momentus could help a person see their own ability to change the life they have been living for the better (only if the person is willing, of course).
That is why there is a need for "hold harmless documents" - primarily to get the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter.
Uhhh no. The 'hold harmless agreements' were there to 'cover their a$$' in case anything that *they* happened to have taught/done that harms the participants, and thus were able to escape legal responsibility.
... Escape legal responsibility. --> Hhmmmm, now how exactly is this compatible with "getting the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter?" Seems to me that that approach has the participant to not only take responsibility for their own actions (which is reasonable), but that of the trainers as well (which is not).
My wife & I did it at the urging of my never-Way sister. For us it was a great experience, particularly for my sisters & I. It gave us a chance to work out some things of the past "infornt of God & everybody".
I understand that some others shouldn't take it.
My biggest disappointment is that, in my experience, everybody gets a good high off of it, but few actually walk out the changes they saw as possibilities in the training. I don't fault the training, though I think there could be a more rigorous follow-up to help people achieve what they saw as possible.
Both of my kids did Gap for teens. My son dug it but now considers it brainwashing. My daughter did it, dug it and really "gets" it and is passionate about what it can do for people. So, she's helped out and made it one of her service areas in life. But, that's somewhat limited as there is no Gap structure anywhere near here.
Dana, I do not know you, and hope that I can post my thoughts without offending or appearing to attack you personally.
As I have not taken momentus, I base my opinions on the writings of folks who have.....
Guess what I have seen in the folks who have taken momentus ane enthusiastically endorse it is that their proclamations of being *all better now* .... it would seem based on the idea that every thing that they ever have done to other folks is no longer their responsibility...
Everybody ELSE needs simply needs to just suck it up and quit being victims and accept the blame for what these folks did to them on their own shoulders.....
IMO, a nice way to get yourself and your conscience off the hook for your actions.
ALSO a nice way to absolve yourself of guilt and the necessity of your Godly responsibilty to those whom you have sinned against.
No doubt it`d be a very attractive alternative to one who had been a participant in the evil of twi.
It almost sounds like twi all over again...you need to quit blaming US for what WE did to you....It is all your fault and YOU just need to quit being a whiney victim.
Maybe I am wrong...but this is the impression I have recieved of the posters who have taken this course.
Back on way dale there was a long thread about how damaging many folks had found it to be.
It sure sets the sirens and alarm bells off for me....
Nothing personal Dana, as it is obvious that you liked it....however we were ALL once very enthusiastic supporters of a group that turned out to be very harmfull...
I didn't come in here to defend this program, or whatever you want to call it. But rascal, you made me.
That is a gross misconception of what Momentus claims to be doing. It is not about 'getting off the hook'. Quite the opposite, it is about taking personal responsibility.
There was an exWay leader helping with the sessions attended. In fact I'd been directly under him at least once back in my fair cult days. He wept on my arm, absolutely debasing himself and asking forgiveness for having wronged me. That was a reflection of what the session was all about. That doesn't square with your claim.
And you're contradicting yourself. You say it's about shifting responsibility & getting off the hook for your actions. Then you say they're telling people to quit being a whiny victim, ie, take responsibility. Which is it?
I hate that you "made me" (how's that for 'blame shifting' :D-->) come in here & defend. I have nothing to defend. I had a personal experience which is mine alone. No need to defend that. If you don't want to go, don't. If you don't ant others to go, start a campaign, I guess.
Ev, you are absolutely above reproach in my opinion...so I will have to adjust my observations accordingly.
Prior to you, my experience with reading what participants of momentus have written has been disturbing.
Their common theme seems to be.... any who are angry over the deception and betrayal of twi, the treatment of our brothers and sisters are indulging themselves as perpetual victims and simply need to move on.
To me...my perception...and I AM willing to concede that I might be mistaken.........but it smacks of the same old arrogance of...*I* am now ok..it is YOU who have a problem....
Ev, maybe I am judging the program unfairly, based on the behavior of a few after their completion...John Lynn`s letter previously posted just irritates the hell out of me...real easy for HIM to say stop being a victim, eat the fish spit out the bones...he wasn`t at the bottom of the food chain in twi. His issues are very different....
I just know that aside from you and ex 10, the description given by folks who participated in this program make my skin crawl.
Then maybe you can set a particular point straight then. A point being taught in general in that class--oops! I meant 'training'.
The point that is supposedly taught that you are supposedly responsible for not only what you do, but also for what happens to you. Ie., if you are attacked, you are (supposedly) a (whiney) victim if you blame the attacker for attacking you, rather than or in addition to endeavoring to grow and learn from the attack.
I'd like your response based on what you were taught and have learned in that training please.
Rascal, from what I see, you have nothing to apologize for. A good healthy critical and skeptical approach is definitely called for regarding topics like this, ... and you didn't 'make' anybody post anything. ;)-->
I think there is definitely such a thing as wound addiction; problem is, folks who are the most addicted to wounds, who love to ongoingly revisit and regurgitate the pain and sufferings over and over again like an endless leaky faucet, who relish and seem to even worship their endless whining, seem to be the hardest to convince that there is a life outside of wounds.
If momentus helps people get over it and move on, more power to momentus. Some people may really need it!
"If everybody jumps off a bridge are you gonna junp too?"
Two expressions used to express ideas. In my view they contradict. Yet SOME accept either or both as "truth."
Another widely accepted idea, in the form of a familiar story has the scorpion who bums a ride across the stream a rabbit's very capable to navigate the stream's back. First he hesitates to give the ride for fear of the scorpion's poisonous sting. We all know the end of the story where the bunny asks with his dying breaths, "Why did you sting me after your promise not to,"
Scorpion answers, "Its my nature to sting."
I personally beileve that to be TOTALLY free from any injury an individual, even a victim, MUST take full personal responsibility for whatever level of culpability they had in whatever happened TO them.
I think "blaming" you attacker for attacking you cannot totally free you from injury inflicted upon you any more than "blaming" the scorpion in the story freed the rabbit from dying from the sting.
My comments on this issue of personal responsibility resulted in me getting flamed and "bum-rushed" in my first few days of posting at GS Cafe. I spoke of it in the context of at least SOME of VP's & LCM's & others' sexual victims carrying a certain level of culpability and "personal responsibility" for the attacks they experienced.
If I am hearing what I think I'm reading here, Momentus training would breach the subject with a victim like that and say something to the effect of, for example:
"Had you not willingly entered the motorcoach... Had you not willingly drank of the drink... HE could not have drugged you and raped you."
Is that close?
I'm going out on a limb here and will say I think that's what I'm hearing concerning at least part of Momentus Training.
My experience in dealing with my own life, my own injuries in every category and even times when I've been victimized is this. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT for me to get past what THEY did TO me. Acknowledge as I may my innocence and lack of culpability for THEIR actions, I'm STILL haunted by the "If I had only... done "this, that or WHATEVER" different that would have placed me somewhere, ANYWHERE but where the incident occurred. Even when someone broke into my home, I'm haunted by:
If I had not gone to run that errand THAT day...
If I had taken the cellphone they stole with me...
If I...
IF I....
I'm not so much tormented by "Those jerks! THEY stole my stuff... "
"THEY hurt me," is VERY easy to accept, deal with and move away from... in comparison. The "If only I's ..." - not they, haunt me.
The hauntings fade away when I accept FULL responsibility for MY actions, no matter how I may or may not like them. The fact remains, when it is all said and done and I'm alone on my pillow about to fall asleep at night....
I TOTALLY own the pain, independant of the attacker. I want to be TOTALLY free of it. Alone at night when the pain and dismay awakens me... "YOU did this to me!" doesn't cut it. That does basically NOTHING for me.
I feel better, I get healing by saying,
"You. Mr. Scorpion, will NEVER even get the chance to even THINK about stinging ME. I know MY nature is to be trusting. I even enjoy how I would feel by helping you out with a ride across the stream. HOWEVER. YOU are a scorpion. If you want a ride from ME you will climb into this impenatrable box.
Once you are secured inside the box. I will approach the box and carry IT across the stream. BTW. You'd better hurry and get in the box, cause I'M about to cross."
I personally believe that had I, the rabbit in the second story, NOT taken personal responsibility for MY level of culpability, in previous attacks, I would not have have taken the steps to either purchase or BUILD the impenatrable box. Therefore I would still be vulnerable and susceptable to future "scorpion attacks."
I think there is an additional element of responsibility of the attacker, for sure, mutually exclusive of the victim. I'm not saying you "blame" the victim for the attackers actions in ANY way. However. There is no incarceration, punishment, etc. on an attacker that makes ME less susceptable to HIS attack. It is HIS nature to ATTACK. HE has crafted his approach to take advantage of MY natural tendancy to be GOOD and trusting. I MUST take a proactive approach to enable and empower myself as "scorpion proof."
That feels great. It feels healthy. I feel strong. I do not allow a past attacker to change my core nature which is to be trusting. I just get out my box when dealing with scorpions. I also has a higher price for admission which includes a "no scorpions allowed" clause.
It is in light of the experiences of others regarding VP's, etc, sexual indescretions, etc. that I've taught and continue to teach my daughters that ANY time you ride, alone in ANY guy's car (except MINE, your BROTHER's, MY brother's and any other I give you my specific, express written permission to ride in...)
You MAY be riding with a SCORPION. Don't ride with scorpions, don't give scorpions a ride.
If Momentus takes people down a similar path of self discovery, navigating people through even the most painful portions of their past so they can come out on the other side, "scorpion proof" there is value in that for the individuals who find it.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
16
21
21
Popular Days
Sep 15
30
Sep 20
24
Sep 6
22
Sep 12
18
Top Posters In This Topic
TheEvan 15 posts
GarthP2000 16 posts
HCW 21 posts
Ham 21 posts
Popular Days
Sep 15 2005
30 posts
Sep 20 2005
24 posts
Sep 6 2005
22 posts
Sep 12 2005
18 posts
dmiller
Friend of mine walked on top of this thing (as a worker), and said he felt no fear. Scares the $h!t outta me to even think of being up there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
ps --- the top of the span of that bridge is 300 to 500 feet in the air.
Meebe more, meebe less -- not sure on the actual stats on this one.
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
And that is the *High Bridge* leading into the harbor here in Duluth.
I personally have a fear of walking on the top of it. And to me, that fear is a healthy thing!
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dana R
Soul = heart, emotions, intellect, feelings, basically the "what makes you, you". Our spirit can be holy and we can have eternal life but we can "work out our salvation" (wholeness) in the soul realm. We can "bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" and we can bring our soul in line with our spirit. It is interesting in the Breakthrough training to see so many examples of the difference between what we think we are about, and what we really manifest in the soul realm.
When marriage counseling this might be the difference between our stated values and our "familiars" from childhood (which we invariably live to some degree).
Hi Howard! Did you get my reply? I'm a first timer at that and am not sure how it went through. I will email privately when I get time or call when I have some chatting space. Sounds like you are busy with kids?
Dana
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
please
who is dana?
is it dana arm weak?
tell me please if it is
i have a few things to say to him
thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Sorry coolchef.
Dana is a she. She's a newbie here at the cafe but she's a wealth of knowledge, grace and level-headed insights about life in general and TWI to. And a really cool human being to boot.
:)--> In fact her knowledge of TWI goes waaaay back to the beginnings of the "youth revolution" in the ministry.
She & I have been good friends since...??? I don't even remember when ... Dana? Mid to late 70's???
Yes Dana, I got your reply. Busy with kids is an understatement! I have some time this evening after 5pm, its our scheduled, do stuff at home night.
I never even heard of Momentus before this thread, but I subscribe to CES's magazine. There, back on topic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
It seems to me that Momentus is dangerous and unnecessary for Christian development. It's techniques are pyhcological based and even according to the trainers can cause harm in some cases.
They have a 2 page "hold harmlees" agreement that you have to sign that releases the trainers from any liability, even if they are negligent, in the case of " any personal, physical, psychological or emotional injuries you may suffer as a result of the TRAINING..."
This agreement also clearly warns of the possibility of the things noted above.
I would clasify Momentus/Breakthtrough as extreme phycological based training having little if anything to do with real Christian development other than a bit of lip service to Christ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
With all due respect Goey.... Have you personally seen or taken part in any Momentus Training?
I haven't. I'm not commenting on or detracting legitimacy from what they do/don't do.
However, I could say the same things you said about Momentus of high school football practice, wrestling practice or any athletic training, especially high level athletics.
I got physically injured many times during my high school athletic career - so much so the local emergency room staff knew me & my Mom by name... like "What'd he do NOW, Mrs. Walker?" :-)
I would say some of what our coaches put us through could be deemed, "extreme psychological based training."
In that light I wonder, speaking out of an admitted ignorant position on Momnetus, what do YOU mean by "extreme psychological training?"
Also. There are a LARGE number of CHURCHES in this country that one could say only do "lip service to Christ." I'm thinking one should provide some specifics, like, "They say this (honoring Christ with their lips) but their actions (this specific, undeniable thing you have witnessed them DO) prove that their heart is far from him.
I say this not to criticise you Goey, I'm speaking from a "prove all things, hold fast to the good perspective." Along with a healthy curiosity and faith that you can expand on your points a little.
Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Howard,
You might then want to talk to those who have taken the 'training' AND have (had the tenacity to) give out the specific details about what actually went on in it.
I say 'had the tenacity to' because the Momentus trainers require you to not tell anyone what went on in those sessions; not anything that was taught, or what activities went on, regardless of whether or not anything abusive happened. (See what was said before about the aforementioned 'Hold Harmless' agreement they all had to sign, which *is* a tad unusual for a supposed 'Christian character' course such as it advertises itself, wouldn't you agree? Besides, how many school athletic organizations require that same kind of ((cough)) 'legal protection', hmmm?)
I have found some of their accounts rather hair-raising myself. As in, in the
, 'holy ....' range. But hey, that's me. Your 'how strong is your stomach' mileage may vary.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Thank you Dana, for your thoughts on "soul" life, which doesn't really appear to depart significantly from what we had picked up from the Way in the past (e.g., their "Renewed Mind" class).
I cannot help wondering though - did we actually learn about "spiritual life" in the Way - did the Way really have such a grasp in this area as might be assumed?
There's no doubt that many - depending on their involvement in the organization - denied their own souls in pursuit of "spiritual" things - but was this the intended outcome, or had many of us ended up merely neglecting or even exchanging our "soul life" for the "soul-interests" of the organization?
I have read many posts throughout this forum to the effect of folks, upon leaving the organization, rediscovering and learning again simply how to "be themselves" - warts and all.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Thanks Garth.
That helps me see Goey's point more clearly. Yes. I'd agree about the "Christian character," hold harmless remark. It kinda reminds me of what folks say about nightclubs that have armed security guards being "safe."
They have armed security because they NEED it. AND. How safe can it be if they need armed security?
Catch 23 Maybe?
The Hold harmless thing does strike me as a little suspicious.... How about, "Don't harm US, we'll harm YOU?"
Would I be safe to think of Momentus as a sort of Tony Robbins meets Bootcamp in the name of Jesus?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
LOL! Don't forget to add Christ. I would have thought the same thing HCW.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
HCW,
Nope, I haven't. But then again do I really need to when so much information and first hand testimony is available? I am not afraid to comment. I think it's bunk. Apples and oranges. The athetic comparision does not work well here. You pretty much know what to expect in sports training. Momentus is different. These folks delve deep into your psyche and sometimes the outcome is very ugly. Do a Google search for "Momentus training". You may get enlightened. It's not football.The fact that there are churches that only give lip service to Christ does not redeem Momentus in anyway. It makes is all the worse, especially if a person taking it is already attached to a lip service ministry. What's to gain?
Some things do not have to be experienced to be proven lacking, harmful, or inappropriate. I have probably done 10 hours of research on Momentus/ Mindspring over the last few years. I have talked with folks who have taken it - both those that liked it and those that didn't. So my opinion is not comming from a postion of ignorance. We have witnesses who have taken the training, many who tremendously disliked it or were emotionally harmed by it. Others say its great. I don't know the percentages and I don't really care who likes it. The question is, are the perceived benefits worth the risk? Personally, I don't think so.
Even if my best friend took it and recomended it, there is enough evidence and testimony out there for me to say it is still dangerous and quite unnecessary for Christian development.
But there is on thing for certain , and that is that Momentus is a money maker for the promoters/trainers.
And it beats the heck out of me how a Christian group like CES could have gotten so wrapped up with something like Momentus that it was almost "required" if you wanted to fit in and be respected. Kinda reminds me of TWI and "going Corps".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dana R
Thank you Howard for your kind remarks.
I think the point of Momentus training that is mised here is personal responsibility and accountibility. That is why there is a need for "hold harmless documents" - primarily to get the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter.
I find that is a primary need in therapy. Many folks simply want to blame others for their outcome and they miss their own opportunity to be and do what they want and need to do in life. It's sad but if you read some Greasespot posts with this in mind, you might see a tendancy to blame others for life situations. Momentus could help a person see their own ability to change the life they have been living for the better (only if the person is willing, of course).
Dana
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Uhhh no. The 'hold harmless agreements' were there to 'cover their a$$' in case anything that *they* happened to have taught/done that harms the participants, and thus were able to escape legal responsibility.
... Escape legal responsibility.
--> Hhmmmm, now how exactly is this compatible with "getting the person to take responsibility for their own decision in the matter?" Seems to me that that approach has the participant to not only take responsibility for their own actions (which is reasonable), but that of the trainers as well (which is not).
Explain this discrepency please.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
My wife & I did it at the urging of my never-Way sister. For us it was a great experience, particularly for my sisters & I. It gave us a chance to work out some things of the past "infornt of God & everybody".
I understand that some others shouldn't take it.
My biggest disappointment is that, in my experience, everybody gets a good high off of it, but few actually walk out the changes they saw as possibilities in the training. I don't fault the training, though I think there could be a more rigorous follow-up to help people achieve what they saw as possible.
Both of my kids did Gap for teens. My son dug it but now considers it brainwashing. My daughter did it, dug it and really "gets" it and is passionate about what it can do for people. So, she's helped out and made it one of her service areas in life. But, that's somewhat limited as there is no Gap structure anywhere near here.
YMMV, but it is what you make it to be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Dana, I do not know you, and hope that I can post my thoughts without offending or appearing to attack you personally.
As I have not taken momentus, I base my opinions on the writings of folks who have.....
Guess what I have seen in the folks who have taken momentus ane enthusiastically endorse it is that their proclamations of being *all better now* .... it would seem based on the idea that every thing that they ever have done to other folks is no longer their responsibility...
Everybody ELSE needs simply needs to just suck it up and quit being victims and accept the blame for what these folks did to them on their own shoulders.....
IMO, a nice way to get yourself and your conscience off the hook for your actions.
ALSO a nice way to absolve yourself of guilt and the necessity of your Godly responsibilty to those whom you have sinned against.
No doubt it`d be a very attractive alternative to one who had been a participant in the evil of twi.
It almost sounds like twi all over again...you need to quit blaming US for what WE did to you....It is all your fault and YOU just need to quit being a whiney victim.
Maybe I am wrong...but this is the impression I have recieved of the posters who have taken this course.
Back on way dale there was a long thread about how damaging many folks had found it to be.
It sure sets the sirens and alarm bells off for me....
Nothing personal Dana, as it is obvious that you liked it....however we were ALL once very enthusiastic supporters of a group that turned out to be very harmfull...
I am sorry if I am a bit sceptical.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Rascal, I agree pretty much. Looks like a "debriefing" after an unpleasant vey experience..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
I didn't come in here to defend this program, or whatever you want to call it. But rascal, you made me.
That is a gross misconception of what Momentus claims to be doing. It is not about 'getting off the hook'. Quite the opposite, it is about taking personal responsibility.
There was an exWay leader helping with the sessions attended. In fact I'd been directly under him at least once back in my fair cult days. He wept on my arm, absolutely debasing himself and asking forgiveness for having wronged me. That was a reflection of what the session was all about. That doesn't square with your claim.
And you're contradicting yourself. You say it's about shifting responsibility & getting off the hook for your actions. Then you say they're telling people to quit being a whiny victim, ie, take responsibility. Which is it?
I hate that you "made me" (how's that for 'blame shifting'
:D-->) come in here & defend. I have nothing to defend. I had a personal experience which is mine alone. No need to defend that. If you don't want to go, don't. If you don't ant others to go, start a campaign, I guess.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Ev, you are absolutely above reproach in my opinion...so I will have to adjust my observations accordingly.
Prior to you, my experience with reading what participants of momentus have written has been disturbing.
Their common theme seems to be.... any who are angry over the deception and betrayal of twi, the treatment of our brothers and sisters are indulging themselves as perpetual victims and simply need to move on.
To me...my perception...and I AM willing to concede that I might be mistaken.........but it smacks of the same old arrogance of...*I* am now ok..it is YOU who have a problem....
Ev, maybe I am judging the program unfairly, based on the behavior of a few after their completion...John Lynn`s letter previously posted just irritates the hell out of me...real easy for HIM to say stop being a victim, eat the fish spit out the bones...he wasn`t at the bottom of the food chain in twi. His issues are very different....
I just know that aside from you and ex 10, the description given by folks who participated in this program make my skin crawl.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Yanagisawa
I ditto Evan.
Took it 10 yrs ago and it was personally enlightening and liberating in ways that I needed at that time.
It's not for everyone...that's the beauty of being an individual...one man's trash can truly be another's treasure.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Evan,
Then maybe you can set a particular point straight then. A point being taught in general in that class--oops! I meant 'training'.
The point that is supposedly taught that you are supposedly responsible for not only what you do, but also for what happens to you. Ie., if you are attacked, you are (supposedly) a (whiney) victim if you blame the attacker for attacking you, rather than or in addition to endeavoring to grow and learn from the attack.
I'd like your response based on what you were taught and have learned in that training please.
Rascal, from what I see, you have nothing to apologize for. A good healthy critical and skeptical approach is definitely called for regarding topics like this, ... and you didn't 'make' anybody post anything.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I think there is definitely such a thing as wound addiction; problem is, folks who are the most addicted to wounds, who love to ongoingly revisit and regurgitate the pain and sufferings over and over again like an endless leaky faucet, who relish and seem to even worship their endless whining, seem to be the hardest to convince that there is a life outside of wounds.
If momentus helps people get over it and move on, more power to momentus. Some people may really need it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
"40 million Chinamen can't be wrong."
"If everybody jumps off a bridge are you gonna junp too?"
Two expressions used to express ideas. In my view they contradict. Yet SOME accept either or both as "truth."
Another widely accepted idea, in the form of a familiar story has the scorpion who bums a ride across the stream a rabbit's very capable to navigate the stream's back. First he hesitates to give the ride for fear of the scorpion's poisonous sting. We all know the end of the story where the bunny asks with his dying breaths, "Why did you sting me after your promise not to,"
Scorpion answers, "Its my nature to sting."
I personally beileve that to be TOTALLY free from any injury an individual, even a victim, MUST take full personal responsibility for whatever level of culpability they had in whatever happened TO them.
I think "blaming" you attacker for attacking you cannot totally free you from injury inflicted upon you any more than "blaming" the scorpion in the story freed the rabbit from dying from the sting.
My comments on this issue of personal responsibility resulted in me getting flamed and "bum-rushed" in my first few days of posting at GS Cafe. I spoke of it in the context of at least SOME of VP's & LCM's & others' sexual victims carrying a certain level of culpability and "personal responsibility" for the attacks they experienced.
If I am hearing what I think I'm reading here, Momentus training would breach the subject with a victim like that and say something to the effect of, for example:
"Had you not willingly entered the motorcoach... Had you not willingly drank of the drink... HE could not have drugged you and raped you."
Is that close?
I'm going out on a limb here and will say I think that's what I'm hearing concerning at least part of Momentus Training.
My experience in dealing with my own life, my own injuries in every category and even times when I've been victimized is this. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT for me to get past what THEY did TO me. Acknowledge as I may my innocence and lack of culpability for THEIR actions, I'm STILL haunted by the "If I had only... done "this, that or WHATEVER" different that would have placed me somewhere, ANYWHERE but where the incident occurred. Even when someone broke into my home, I'm haunted by:
If I had not gone to run that errand THAT day...
If I had taken the cellphone they stole with me...
If I...
IF I....
I'm not so much tormented by "Those jerks! THEY stole my stuff... "
"THEY hurt me," is VERY easy to accept, deal with and move away from... in comparison. The "If only I's ..." - not they, haunt me.
The hauntings fade away when I accept FULL responsibility for MY actions, no matter how I may or may not like them. The fact remains, when it is all said and done and I'm alone on my pillow about to fall asleep at night....
I TOTALLY own the pain, independant of the attacker. I want to be TOTALLY free of it. Alone at night when the pain and dismay awakens me... "YOU did this to me!" doesn't cut it. That does basically NOTHING for me.
I feel better, I get healing by saying,
"You. Mr. Scorpion, will NEVER even get the chance to even THINK about stinging ME. I know MY nature is to be trusting. I even enjoy how I would feel by helping you out with a ride across the stream. HOWEVER. YOU are a scorpion. If you want a ride from ME you will climb into this impenatrable box.
Once you are secured inside the box. I will approach the box and carry IT across the stream. BTW. You'd better hurry and get in the box, cause I'M about to cross."
I personally believe that had I, the rabbit in the second story, NOT taken personal responsibility for MY level of culpability, in previous attacks, I would not have have taken the steps to either purchase or BUILD the impenatrable box. Therefore I would still be vulnerable and susceptable to future "scorpion attacks."
I think there is an additional element of responsibility of the attacker, for sure, mutually exclusive of the victim. I'm not saying you "blame" the victim for the attackers actions in ANY way. However. There is no incarceration, punishment, etc. on an attacker that makes ME less susceptable to HIS attack. It is HIS nature to ATTACK. HE has crafted his approach to take advantage of MY natural tendancy to be GOOD and trusting. I MUST take a proactive approach to enable and empower myself as "scorpion proof."
That feels great. It feels healthy. I feel strong. I do not allow a past attacker to change my core nature which is to be trusting. I just get out my box when dealing with scorpions. I also has a higher price for admission which includes a "no scorpions allowed" clause.
It is in light of the experiences of others regarding VP's, etc, sexual indescretions, etc. that I've taught and continue to teach my daughters that ANY time you ride, alone in ANY guy's car (except MINE, your BROTHER's, MY brother's and any other I give you my specific, express written permission to ride in...)
You MAY be riding with a SCORPION. Don't ride with scorpions, don't give scorpions a ride.
If Momentus takes people down a similar path of self discovery, navigating people through even the most painful portions of their past so they can come out on the other side, "scorpion proof" there is value in that for the individuals who find it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.