In most cases, abortion should be legal up until the clock strikes midnight on the eve of the child's 18th birthday (or whatever the age of majority is in your state).
In most cases, abortion should be legal up until the clock strikes midnight on the eve of the child's 18th birthday (or whatever the age of majority is in your state).
Are you suggesting infantcide? If so, there may not be many adults, as most would be "aborted" as teens.
I brought you into this world and I can take you out!!
I don't think anti abortionists are nearly the threat in any of this that ambulance chasers are.
Even if a sleazy lawyer cashes in and attains great wealth by chasing down and catching the juciest ambulance, he's still a sleazy lawyer.
At least anti abortionists who blow clinics up get to go to heaven and have 72 virgins with big hair, look like Tammy Faye, and appeared with Pat Robertson on the 700 Club.
I think that's how it goes....I keep getting all that stuff mixed up.
I think that suicide should be legal (I really do) and that the only options for the plaintiff in this case should be to drop the case or abort herself.
"I think that suicide should be legal (I really do) "
Now if you think about this - if you committ suicide and succeed, criminal prosecution is no longer an option. It's only when you screw it up and live that you can be prosecuted. So in a sense, you aren't being prosecuted for committing suicide, you're being prosecuted for failing to do it right. :blink:
"So in a sense, you aren't being prosecuted for committing suicide, you're being prosecuted for failing to do it right."
This is why I think there should be classes on committing suicide. The person already feels like a failure, so why deny them the opportunity to finally do something RIGHT?
And I wish assisted suicide was legal in all states. I see this as an individual's right to choose deferred several decades. I think of this in the light of the last 10 minutes of the film Soylent Green. I can't imagine myself in a situation where I would ever select abortion, but if I ever were in such a predicament, I'd like the opportunity to make that desision myself, not have it mandated to me.
At the moment I don't see any conditions that would cause me to go down the suicide path, but I can envision such conditions in my mind. If I were of sound mind, and came to believe that my continued living would be so horrible for not only me, but my family to bear, I would like the option of making that decision as well, without any law binding my wishes. I would like to retain my dignity.
This doctor may have told the mother that there could be complications with the child physically or mentally and that he has no way of determining or diagnosing what those complications might be with the baby. It is also possible that there might have been no side effects to the child.
You can't tell if a child is going to be blind or deaf by an amnio .......... and in many cases you can not tell if they will be mentally ill either.
Very few cases can be detected by amnio .......... Down Syndrome and Trisomy 13 can be detected by amnio and have been able to do so for approximately the last 20 years. But are often not caught until second trimester even in this day and time.
I can't say the doctor is right or wrong, I wasn't there. I am just saying that even if all he told the mother that there could be possible complications with the baby mentally or physically and that there is real no way of knowing what the outcome will be ........... he is still accurate ......... and the mother still chose to have the child.
I believe in hindsight ............ its possible the mother blamed the doctor because the daughter came out in a bad case scenerio and not what she had hoped for which was the daughter would be fine which was a possibility or that it would be a minor defect that would be easily worked with out of love ..........
the mothers hatred or blame for the doctor over the years probably esculated to the daughters hatred and blame of the doctor and thus lets sue the doctor 24 years later. Her mother obviously loved her enough to have her .............
I think it horrible that a mother, under her daughters circumstances, would tell her daughter that had she had known she would be this sick she would have aborted her. Thats not what you tell a child ever, under any circumstances in my mind, especially because she was already there born and grown ........... so if she ends up eventually suing her mother, who made the choice to go ahead and give birth to her daughter and later told a physically and mentally handicapped loved one she should have aborted her ..... well I say go for it .............sue your mother (even tho it probably will go no where) ....... but ......... maybe it will teach this mom to watch what she says to her daughter because it just might make matters worse ...... the mother should have loved her and comforted her no matter how hard the situation. Never Never Never do you tell one of your children I should have aborted you. Thats what caused this whole mess in this handicapped daughters mind in my opinion.
I would love to see the outcome of this case. Its sad because the Doctor will probably win. The daughter will be drug through the wringer in a possible trial hearing all because mom told her daughter she chose not to abort when she believes she should have, after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20 but probably not the docs fault in this case.
This world is getting more interesting all the time
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but he's being accused of missing a disease diagnosis.
arguing that her mother's doctor was negligent in failing to diagnose rubella infection early in the pregnancy.
The result of that failure, removed the mother's opportunity for choice if she wanted to use it. I think that puts things in a different light.
Mom says that if she had known the disabilities of her daughter she would have aborted.
I wouldn't condemn the mother for telling the daughter about this without more insight. I've had some very sensitive discussions with my own children in helping them come to terms with the reality of their adoption. "Why didn't my mother want me" kind of things, and others.
I attended adoptive parents meetings, and when one of the adoptive parents was confronted with helping his teenager stay out of the drug scene, the counselor suggested he might think about telling the young man that he had in his genetic line (the boy) several alcoholic and drug addicted individuals, NOT to place blame, but rather to point out to the young man how careful he had to be because he is more susceptible than the family he lives with, and it would help remove some of the guilt the young man was facing. It was hard to do, but it was helpful to the young man because in fact, it did help alleviate his guilt.
blind deaf physicly and mentaly disabled many of these can not be forcast in ultra sounds .
how is the doctor to know what and how many disabilities a child will or will not have?
That's correct. However, it is possible to diagnose rubella with blood tests of the mother. If the woman was tested, and diagnosed, those defects would have been a foregone conclusion.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or trying to pick a fight here. I am trying to point out that we only know what was reported in the paper. The complete story is almost never reported in such instances, and while such topics make great discussions and are great thought provokers, they sometimes cause us to judge something we may not have the right to judge.
Krys ......... I agree there are sensitive issues we discuss with our children. Some issues lead to things we just don't want to have to deal with but we must as parents. Talking to them about their adoption, helping them get through the pains of that is a challenge I am sure, but you wouldn't have turned to them and have told them maybe it would have been better if your bio parents had aborted you instead of my adopting you.
I still don't think a mother should ever tell a child they should have aborted them in any situation or under any circumstances especially with the child already here in this world and now 24 years old with physical and mental handicaps. That is alot to put on someone who is healthy let alone dealing with the girl is dealing with. That is telling your kid you should have killed them instead, that you are better off dead. Parents don't do that.
Who knows when the mother contracted Rubella before or in midstream of her pregnancy? 24 years have passed by, finding out the truth of this matter seeing as it wasn't caught immediately is going to be hard. Maybe mom didn't even go into the pregnancy with Rubella, contracted after she was already pregnant, its hard to tell now, thats what I am saying. In finding out she had Rubella she should have handled the situation then. Got a second opinion from another doctor, maybe she was even advised to do this, maybe she wasn't, but you don't tell your kid you should have aborted them. Giving your unstable child fuel for a fire they can't handle as a parent is a horrible thing to do.
The only way this cluster of disabling defects happens is during the first trimester of pregnancy. Having rubella before pregnancy, or in the later stages doesn't produce this.
Saying that the woman told her daughter all about it and how she should have aborted is an awful thing. However, nobody can imagine that she just came right out and stated all of this to condemn or criticize the girl from out of the blue. There must be a whole lot more to this story than the 8 lines of text quoted above.
I can easily see such information being revealed after a series of questions and processing of this info as the daughter grew and was able to understand. I can easily see the child complaining, and rightfully so, "how did I get in this predicament"....or "why me" kind of thing. This probably began when the child was young and began to realize her deficiencies. I can see this as an evolution of a series of discussions over a period of time as the girl became older and more mature to understand it.
I know this sounds like I'm making up a pretend story, but I have had discussions with my children over a number of things, like where do babies come from, among other things. And, I do agree that telling a child about the abortion thing is cruel at the least. However, suppose it came out in the discussions in the form of a question and the girl asked her mother...."if you knew.....would you have.....". In that case, it's a matter of judgment whether to be truthful or lie about it if that were the case. I just am not convinced that this mother really deserves the bad rap she appears to get based on 8 lines on text in a newspaper.
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Sushi
In most cases, abortion should be legal up until the clock strikes midnight on the eve of the child's 18th birthday (or whatever the age of majority is in your state).
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markomalley
In most cases? :D
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moony3424
Are you suggesting infantcide? If so, there may not be many adults, as most would be "aborted" as teens.
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GarthP2000
Mark,
Based on how rabid some of the more militant anti-abortionists can be, don't count that tactic out.
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Ron G.
Garth...
I don't think anti abortionists are nearly the threat in any of this that ambulance chasers are.
Even if a sleazy lawyer cashes in and attains great wealth by chasing down and catching the juciest ambulance, he's still a sleazy lawyer.
At least anti abortionists who blow clinics up get to go to heaven and have 72 virgins with big hair, look like Tammy Faye, and appeared with Pat Robertson on the 700 Club.
I think that's how it goes....I keep getting all that stuff mixed up.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i am going to sue my father because i have a shot dick!! woops i can't.
he has been gone 6 years ago today!!
what will they think of next!
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LG
I think that suicide should be legal (I really do) and that the only options for the plaintiff in this case should be to drop the case or abort herself.
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Morgan
"I think that suicide should be legal (I really do) "
Now if you think about this - if you committ suicide and succeed, criminal prosecution is no longer an option. It's only when you screw it up and live that you can be prosecuted. So in a sense, you aren't being prosecuted for committing suicide, you're being prosecuted for failing to do it right. :blink:
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pond
Mom says that if she had known the disabilities of her daughtershe would have aborted.
blind deaf physicly and mentaly disabled many of these can not be forcast in ultra sounds .
how is the doctor to know what and how many disabilities a child will or will not have?
money might help the situation.
It takes a long time to come to terms with these type of circumstances and a better life style may help.
I think they have to prove the dr. knew what condition the child would be in. that is impossible.
but then again the odds are they did malpractice in not telling them what could be happening to the fetus, due to the rubella.
We have no garuntee's in children BUT I would also like to know what chances my baby would have when pregnate with a serious disease.
The mom isnt suing the daughter is.. she is angry , ok. but enough to die? or think she should have?
what if it was available to kill her in hindsight of a missed abortion?
I bet she would sing a different song.
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Sushi
"So in a sense, you aren't being prosecuted for committing suicide, you're being prosecuted for failing to do it right."
This is why I think there should be classes on committing suicide. The person already feels like a failure, so why deny them the opportunity to finally do something RIGHT?
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Raf
I can't wait for session 12 of that class.
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krys
And I wish assisted suicide was legal in all states. I see this as an individual's right to choose deferred several decades. I think of this in the light of the last 10 minutes of the film Soylent Green. I can't imagine myself in a situation where I would ever select abortion, but if I ever were in such a predicament, I'd like the opportunity to make that desision myself, not have it mandated to me.
At the moment I don't see any conditions that would cause me to go down the suicide path, but I can envision such conditions in my mind. If I were of sound mind, and came to believe that my continued living would be so horrible for not only me, but my family to bear, I would like the option of making that decision as well, without any law binding my wishes. I would like to retain my dignity.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
when i instructed my wife that i would rather die than live on a life support system she immeadiatly unpluged my computer :(
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GarthP2000
Ron,
That's not heaven! Besides, that's one helluva threat right there! .... ((shudder)) The horror! The horror! :o :blink:
Coolchef,
I can relate. Boy, can I ever!
B)
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Digitalis
This doctor may have told the mother that there could be complications with the child physically or mentally and that he has no way of determining or diagnosing what those complications might be with the baby. It is also possible that there might have been no side effects to the child.
You can't tell if a child is going to be blind or deaf by an amnio .......... and in many cases you can not tell if they will be mentally ill either.
Very few cases can be detected by amnio .......... Down Syndrome and Trisomy 13 can be detected by amnio and have been able to do so for approximately the last 20 years. But are often not caught until second trimester even in this day and time.
I can't say the doctor is right or wrong, I wasn't there. I am just saying that even if all he told the mother that there could be possible complications with the baby mentally or physically and that there is real no way of knowing what the outcome will be ........... he is still accurate ......... and the mother still chose to have the child.
I believe in hindsight ............ its possible the mother blamed the doctor because the daughter came out in a bad case scenerio and not what she had hoped for which was the daughter would be fine which was a possibility or that it would be a minor defect that would be easily worked with out of love ..........
the mothers hatred or blame for the doctor over the years probably esculated to the daughters hatred and blame of the doctor and thus lets sue the doctor 24 years later. Her mother obviously loved her enough to have her .............
I think it horrible that a mother, under her daughters circumstances, would tell her daughter that had she had known she would be this sick she would have aborted her. Thats not what you tell a child ever, under any circumstances in my mind, especially because she was already there born and grown ........... so if she ends up eventually suing her mother, who made the choice to go ahead and give birth to her daughter and later told a physically and mentally handicapped loved one she should have aborted her ..... well I say go for it .............sue your mother (even tho it probably will go no where) ....... but ......... maybe it will teach this mom to watch what she says to her daughter because it just might make matters worse ...... the mother should have loved her and comforted her no matter how hard the situation. Never Never Never do you tell one of your children I should have aborted you. Thats what caused this whole mess in this handicapped daughters mind in my opinion.
I would love to see the outcome of this case. Its sad because the Doctor will probably win. The daughter will be drug through the wringer in a possible trial hearing all because mom told her daughter she chose not to abort when she believes she should have, after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20 but probably not the docs fault in this case.
This world is getting more interesting all the time
Digi
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
digi
no one have could said it better
thank you for that wonderful insight
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markomalley
Perhaps Peter Singer would have some interesting observations on this case.
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krys
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but he's being accused of missing a disease diagnosis.
The result of that failure, removed the mother's opportunity for choice if she wanted to use it. I think that puts things in a different light.
I wouldn't condemn the mother for telling the daughter about this without more insight. I've had some very sensitive discussions with my own children in helping them come to terms with the reality of their adoption. "Why didn't my mother want me" kind of things, and others.I attended adoptive parents meetings, and when one of the adoptive parents was confronted with helping his teenager stay out of the drug scene, the counselor suggested he might think about telling the young man that he had in his genetic line (the boy) several alcoholic and drug addicted individuals, NOT to place blame, but rather to point out to the young man how careful he had to be because he is more susceptible than the family he lives with, and it would help remove some of the guilt the young man was facing. It was hard to do, but it was helpful to the young man because in fact, it did help alleviate his guilt.
That's correct. However, it is possible to diagnose rubella with blood tests of the mother. If the woman was tested, and diagnosed, those defects would have been a foregone conclusion.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or trying to pick a fight here. I am trying to point out that we only know what was reported in the paper. The complete story is almost never reported in such instances, and while such topics make great discussions and are great thought provokers, they sometimes cause us to judge something we may not have the right to judge.
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Digitalis
Krys ......... I agree there are sensitive issues we discuss with our children. Some issues lead to things we just don't want to have to deal with but we must as parents. Talking to them about their adoption, helping them get through the pains of that is a challenge I am sure, but you wouldn't have turned to them and have told them maybe it would have been better if your bio parents had aborted you instead of my adopting you.
I still don't think a mother should ever tell a child they should have aborted them in any situation or under any circumstances especially with the child already here in this world and now 24 years old with physical and mental handicaps. That is alot to put on someone who is healthy let alone dealing with the girl is dealing with. That is telling your kid you should have killed them instead, that you are better off dead. Parents don't do that.
Who knows when the mother contracted Rubella before or in midstream of her pregnancy? 24 years have passed by, finding out the truth of this matter seeing as it wasn't caught immediately is going to be hard. Maybe mom didn't even go into the pregnancy with Rubella, contracted after she was already pregnant, its hard to tell now, thats what I am saying. In finding out she had Rubella she should have handled the situation then. Got a second opinion from another doctor, maybe she was even advised to do this, maybe she wasn't, but you don't tell your kid you should have aborted them. Giving your unstable child fuel for a fire they can't handle as a parent is a horrible thing to do.
Digi
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krys
The only way this cluster of disabling defects happens is during the first trimester of pregnancy. Having rubella before pregnancy, or in the later stages doesn't produce this.
Saying that the woman told her daughter all about it and how she should have aborted is an awful thing. However, nobody can imagine that she just came right out and stated all of this to condemn or criticize the girl from out of the blue. There must be a whole lot more to this story than the 8 lines of text quoted above.
I can easily see such information being revealed after a series of questions and processing of this info as the daughter grew and was able to understand. I can easily see the child complaining, and rightfully so, "how did I get in this predicament"....or "why me" kind of thing. This probably began when the child was young and began to realize her deficiencies. I can see this as an evolution of a series of discussions over a period of time as the girl became older and more mature to understand it.
I know this sounds like I'm making up a pretend story, but I have had discussions with my children over a number of things, like where do babies come from, among other things. And, I do agree that telling a child about the abortion thing is cruel at the least. However, suppose it came out in the discussions in the form of a question and the girl asked her mother...."if you knew.....would you have.....". In that case, it's a matter of judgment whether to be truthful or lie about it if that were the case. I just am not convinced that this mother really deserves the bad rap she appears to get based on 8 lines on text in a newspaper.
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