I think the statement *I wish I were the man I know to be* is very telling....
A genuine Christian would have been that man period..... it wouldn`t have been a struggle, it just would have happened as a matter of course.
I know folks and have read where people instantly, the moment the become a Christian lay down their cigarettes, never to pick em up again....I know some folks that had destroyed their marriages over alcoholism issues.....immediatly stop drinking and never desire another drop and become the fathers and husbands that they needed to be......
Yet vp with all of his knowledge couldn`t stop either behavior. He didn`t see the need to stop his adultery and fornication either.
I think that there is a lack in our understanding....as was in our teachers...I won`t even say that it was on purpose...I think that they were decieved into believing that they understood.
I think their actions indicate that they were mistaken, with tradgic consequences.
Oldies, that is just the point..... genuine Christians do not do these things....they are not even tempted.
That rational is what we use to tell ourselves that we are ok.....we are still wishing that we were the men we knew to be.....instead of just DOING it.
Being a genuine Christian is differen`t than simply justifying why our s--t don`t stink.
My definition of a "genuine Christian" is one who has "Christ in them the Hope of Glory".
That rational is what we use to tell ourselves that we are ok.....we are still wishing that we were the men we knew to be.....instead of just DOING it.
It seems that the presence in ones life of the manifestations of fruit of the spirit and the fruit listed in galations 5(?) is the mark of difference between the genuine and the counterfit.
As per oldies: Ceasing the behaviors that are contrary to one who is of the spirit.
Scripturally there are behaviors that mark people who are of the flesh, and there are behaviors that mark people who are of the spirit....in twi we were taught to make excuses for folks who manifested fleshly atributes....taught acceptible excuses for continuing to sin.
I think the actions of our leaders as well of our own at times show that there is something that we don`t understand....
It might have something to do with knowledge puffeth up...I don`t know.
I know that is what we were taught.....but our leaders behaviors in twi do not line up with how jesus told us to identify one another nor did their lives reflect the qualities of that indicate that one is of the spirit.
I have seen the genuine......and I have to wonder how many of us will be told in the end.....*Depart, for I knew you not* :(
I know that is what we were taught.....but our leaders behaviors in twi do not line up with how jesus told us to identify one another nor did their lives reflect the qualities of that indicate that one is of the spirit. ...
Sometimes leaders' behaviors reflected the inner spirit...sometimes the behaviors didn't.
At the times the behaviors were not reflecting the inner holy spirit, does it mean that the spirit was absent?
Wonderfull rascal I like your post, TWI gol was/is for (in fact I do not know that it is now) to rightly dividing God´s, word. To recover the things that have been lost during 20 centuries of Christianity. To praise the one and only God and not to praise the trinity. Then to live the Word to obey what it is writeen. One does not love God if one does not do his commandments. The you have to be whit like mind believers true disciples.
The Christians outside TWI have a lot of traditions and a lot of 5 senses stuff they are sincere ... but you now the rest. They do not understad the diference between Jesus as Lord and our father God. To born again and to be a real christian yo have to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God rise him from the death if you (anybody) do not understand and believe that you (anydoby) can not born again. It doesn´t matter how lovely you are or good or religious.
Each and every one of us have to find our way to handle the things and continue with our lives. I am glad that you are okey and that you may live with peace in your heart. God love´s you.
Well, without getting sent to the doctrinal thread.... I think God made salvation simple enough that as long as we make Jesus Christ Lord over our life, it doesn't matter if we think he is God or Son of God. I have ran into several Christians that feel this way. (Not saying that they thought I was right to believe he is Son of God only, but that is another story.)
But I DO believe that Jesus Christ as Lord is a heck of a lot more than just saying the words. If he is really your Lord, you will want to follow his commands and walk with the love and compassion he had. Our life should be different than before we believed. I think a lot of people will be surprised at the bema. I am just hoping to hear "well done my good and faithful servant" B)
My definition of a "genuine Christian" is one who has "Christ in them the Hope of Glory".
Oh man this is so lame. What exactly does this even mean ? Seems to me that so many VPW/ PFAL addicts
continue to whine on about these types of things as if merely mentioning "the hope of glory" earns brownie points
from God . There are too many arm chair christians already so now your invocation of some VPW phrase is supposed to makeup for your lack of practical action as a REAL christian. From what I can see, the Way trained "christian" is primarily motivated by how many rewards he can obtain at the "bema". Concerns about humanity and easing human sufferring are non-existent. Are you going to be posting PFAL phrase by phrase ? I wouldn't be surprised since every time someone pins you down on something (e.g. your worship of VPW) you run for cover and ignore the post.
I don`t know mex....these folks out here with their 5 senses traditions are LIVING it, their lives have the fruit indicative of being a Christian that we were told to look for when trying to identify one another.
Whereas In twi we talked about it, acted like our knowledge made us spiritual, yet the lives of our leaders and many of us to a lesser degree were clearly indicative of people of the *flesh*.
What gives us to believe our leaders were of the spirit...teaching scripture wasn`t listed as a manifestation....big DEAL if they aren`t living it.....it is a tinkling symbol.
I think that looking at the lives of our leaders even WITH all of their knowledge aren`t able to hold a candle to the christians out here even with their traditions......I have to wonder if there was more to being *of the spirit*
Even in the ministry their were genuine people of the *spirit* and people of the *flesh*....we all had the same teachings.....
I know folks who have gone on to become of the spirit after leaving twi.
The chanting of the magic formula of salvation doesn't mean much, in my not-so-humble opinion, if the so-called "believer' continues to act in hurtful, selfish, deceitful ways.
I'm not at all impressed with someone who is saved, but is a son of a b---- otherwise.
Some of you have said how you've seen plenty of church-going Christians who live in a godly manner. Let me expand that circle to include Jews, Wiccans, Hindus and follwers of Native American religions.
I think the statement *I wish I were the man I know to be* is very telling....
Or does that tell us he knew he was wrong all along as far as how he treated our sisters in Christ? I think he knew it was wrong all the time but did not care until he was on his death bed and knew the next thing he would face was God.
twi seemed to mainly care about twi. They were able to put on "good performances" and sometimes say the "right words" or at least the words we wanted to hear.
One of the big differences between twi and many churches is:
At best, twi might help those who are (in there opinion) in the household or those who have "earned favor" with "leadership"...
In contrast,
Many demonations will help people outside of there church, to include those who might not ever set foot in there church or add to the "collection plate".
The question should be, Which group is more "Christ like"? IMO, twi does not meet any defination that I have heard of being "Christ like" in there actions.
The question should be, Which group is more "Christ like"? IMO, twi does not meet any defination that I have heard of being "Christ like" in there actions.
BINGO! I think that you nailed it z....what did twi do that WAS Christ like?
Just loafing, according to what I read years ago.....according to some who were there at the end, he seemed a little puzzled by the kindness of the women there ...given as how he had treated them....he recognized that he had been harsh, I guess. My personal opinion was that he was weak, too weak morally to make the necessary changes in his life.....this is why I question his spirituality.
Most folks don`t WISH they were the man they know to be.....dogone it...they just DO it.
Oakspear, I think that you have a very valid point....I have long wondered if God works within folks within the sphere of that they will allow or can comprehend.....thus the instruction to identify one another by the *fruit* .
You have someone who professes Christ but acts like a royal sob destroying lives taking that which wasn`t his...ignoring every instruction given to us biblically.....and then you have someone who demonstrates peace longsuffering meekness...etc but is of a different faith... exemplifies *love God and Love your neighbor*
Which one is behaving more Christ like? Which one is following the instructions in the scriptures?
I`ll trust fruit over lables ANY day.
Reminds me of the story about the 2 sons who were told to go to work in the fields....one said hell no....but went and did what his dad asked...the other said yeah he`d be there and bailed.....one said the right words....one did the will of his father.
Then WHY did he say...*by their FRUIT ye shall know them*....obviously there were folks who could pass as Christians that were not.....
Your leaders and your ministry failed that test given in the scriptures, no matter how much *word they preached* or *how much they prayed* or HOW *thankfull they were to the one true God*
Jim Jones did the very same things......that did not necessarily make his congregation a spiritually nor physically healthy place to be.
Your leaders and your ministry failed that test given in the scriptures, no matter how much *word they preached* or *how much they prayed* or HOW *thankfull they were to the one true God*
Now you are accusing twi leaders and ministry of not having/manifesting the fruit of the spirit?
That is exactly what I am saying. What I DID see manifested frequently in twi leaders vp and lcm in particular....has been labled in galatians (thank you tlb :) ) as fruit of those who are *of the flesh*.
I wonder if they believed any thing they were teaching. I think it was a buisness and all the bad things that happened to people was for their enjoyment. It also seems they did not care who they hurt.
Just loafing ...I will even give them the benefit of the doubt....that maybe they truly believed that *all things are lawfull* *let him who eat meat not condemneth he who doesn`t* *all parts of the body being of equal honor* *all the women belong to the king*
What I question is whether or not they were genuine christians based on the fruit manifested .... in SPITE of their knowledge of scriptures.
What I DID see manifested frequently in twi leaders vp and lcm in particular....has been labled in galatians (thank you tlb ) as fruit of those who are *of the flesh*.
I didn't know there was FRUIT of the flesh, I thought there were WORKS of the flesh.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Well I may get slammed for this one but.............from what I have read since WayDale twi was off the Word in so many areas. They twisted areas to meet their own perverstion. So yes they may have believed what they were teaching but they did not believe what the bible said.
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oldiesman
Because today is "man's day" when man does the judging.
We have freedom of will to think the way we want to think, Godly thoughts or ungodly thoughts.
We can be spiritually born again, but the gift of God does not guarantee that we will "walk worthy of the vocation".
Salvation is for sinners.
Everyone's poo poo stinks.
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rascal
I think the statement *I wish I were the man I know to be* is very telling....
A genuine Christian would have been that man period..... it wouldn`t have been a struggle, it just would have happened as a matter of course.
I know folks and have read where people instantly, the moment the become a Christian lay down their cigarettes, never to pick em up again....I know some folks that had destroyed their marriages over alcoholism issues.....immediatly stop drinking and never desire another drop and become the fathers and husbands that they needed to be......
Yet vp with all of his knowledge couldn`t stop either behavior. He didn`t see the need to stop his adultery and fornication either.
I think that there is a lack in our understanding....as was in our teachers...I won`t even say that it was on purpose...I think that they were decieved into believing that they understood.
I think their actions indicate that they were mistaken, with tradgic consequences.
Oldies, that is just the point..... genuine Christians do not do these things....they are not even tempted.
That rational is what we use to tell ourselves that we are ok.....we are still wishing that we were the men we knew to be.....instead of just DOING it.
Being a genuine Christian is differen`t than simply justifying why our s--t don`t stink.
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oldiesman
My definition of a "genuine Christian" is one who has "Christ in them the Hope of Glory".
Doing what?
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rascal
It seems that the presence in ones life of the manifestations of fruit of the spirit and the fruit listed in galations 5(?) is the mark of difference between the genuine and the counterfit.
As per oldies: Ceasing the behaviors that are contrary to one who is of the spirit.
Scripturally there are behaviors that mark people who are of the flesh, and there are behaviors that mark people who are of the spirit....in twi we were taught to make excuses for folks who manifested fleshly atributes....taught acceptible excuses for continuing to sin.
I think the actions of our leaders as well of our own at times show that there is something that we don`t understand....
It might have something to do with knowledge puffeth up...I don`t know.
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oldiesman
Ceasing carnal behaviors doesn't necessarily mean man gets born again, or saved.
The way one gets saved, born again, is to believe what the Word says:
Romans 10:9
John 3:16
Acts 4:12
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rascal
I know that is what we were taught.....but our leaders behaviors in twi do not line up with how jesus told us to identify one another nor did their lives reflect the qualities of that indicate that one is of the spirit.
I have seen the genuine......and I have to wonder how many of us will be told in the end.....*Depart, for I knew you not* :(
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oldiesman
Sometimes leaders' behaviors reflected the inner spirit...sometimes the behaviors didn't.
At the times the behaviors were not reflecting the inner holy spirit, does it mean that the spirit was absent?
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themex
Wonderfull rascal I like your post, TWI gol was/is for (in fact I do not know that it is now) to rightly dividing God´s, word. To recover the things that have been lost during 20 centuries of Christianity. To praise the one and only God and not to praise the trinity. Then to live the Word to obey what it is writeen. One does not love God if one does not do his commandments. The you have to be whit like mind believers true disciples.
The Christians outside TWI have a lot of traditions and a lot of 5 senses stuff they are sincere ... but you now the rest. They do not understad the diference between Jesus as Lord and our father God. To born again and to be a real christian yo have to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God rise him from the death if you (anybody) do not understand and believe that you (anydoby) can not born again. It doesn´t matter how lovely you are or good or religious.
Each and every one of us have to find our way to handle the things and continue with our lives. I am glad that you are okey and that you may live with peace in your heart. God love´s you.
bless you.
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penguin
Well, without getting sent to the doctrinal thread.... I think God made salvation simple enough that as long as we make Jesus Christ Lord over our life, it doesn't matter if we think he is God or Son of God. I have ran into several Christians that feel this way. (Not saying that they thought I was right to believe he is Son of God only, but that is another story.)
But I DO believe that Jesus Christ as Lord is a heck of a lot more than just saying the words. If he is really your Lord, you will want to follow his commands and walk with the love and compassion he had. Our life should be different than before we believed. I think a lot of people will be surprised at the bema. I am just hoping to hear "well done my good and faithful servant" B)
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diazbro
Oh man this is so lame. What exactly does this even mean ? Seems to me that so many VPW/ PFAL addicts
continue to whine on about these types of things as if merely mentioning "the hope of glory" earns brownie points
from God . There are too many arm chair christians already so now your invocation of some VPW phrase is supposed to makeup for your lack of practical action as a REAL christian. From what I can see, the Way trained "christian" is primarily motivated by how many rewards he can obtain at the "bema". Concerns about humanity and easing human sufferring are non-existent. Are you going to be posting PFAL phrase by phrase ? I wouldn't be surprised since every time someone pins you down on something (e.g. your worship of VPW) you run for cover and ignore the post.
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rascal
I don`t know mex....these folks out here with their 5 senses traditions are LIVING it, their lives have the fruit indicative of being a Christian that we were told to look for when trying to identify one another.
Whereas In twi we talked about it, acted like our knowledge made us spiritual, yet the lives of our leaders and many of us to a lesser degree were clearly indicative of people of the *flesh*.
What gives us to believe our leaders were of the spirit...teaching scripture wasn`t listed as a manifestation....big DEAL if they aren`t living it.....it is a tinkling symbol.
I think that looking at the lives of our leaders even WITH all of their knowledge aren`t able to hold a candle to the christians out here even with their traditions......I have to wonder if there was more to being *of the spirit*
Even in the ministry their were genuine people of the *spirit* and people of the *flesh*....we all had the same teachings.....
I know folks who have gone on to become of the spirit after leaving twi.
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Oakspear
The chanting of the magic formula of salvation doesn't mean much, in my not-so-humble opinion, if the so-called "believer' continues to act in hurtful, selfish, deceitful ways.
I'm not at all impressed with someone who is saved, but is a son of a b---- otherwise.
Some of you have said how you've seen plenty of church-going Christians who live in a godly manner. Let me expand that circle to include Jews, Wiccans, Hindus and follwers of Native American religions.
By their fruit...
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Abigail
Amen, Oakspear!
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justloafing
Or does that tell us he knew he was wrong all along as far as how he treated our sisters in Christ? I think he knew it was wrong all the time but did not care until he was on his death bed and knew the next thing he would face was God.
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Zshot
If I remember correctly...
I thought I heard something to the effect:
"I would rather see a sermon than hear one"...
And then there is:
"Practice what you preach"...
twi seemed to mainly care about twi. They were able to put on "good performances" and sometimes say the "right words" or at least the words we wanted to hear.
One of the big differences between twi and many churches is:
At best, twi might help those who are (in there opinion) in the household or those who have "earned favor" with "leadership"...
In contrast,
Many demonations will help people outside of there church, to include those who might not ever set foot in there church or add to the "collection plate".
The question should be, Which group is more "Christ like"? IMO, twi does not meet any defination that I have heard of being "Christ like" in there actions.
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rascal
BINGO! I think that you nailed it z....what did twi do that WAS Christ like?
Just loafing, according to what I read years ago.....according to some who were there at the end, he seemed a little puzzled by the kindness of the women there ...given as how he had treated them....he recognized that he had been harsh, I guess. My personal opinion was that he was weak, too weak morally to make the necessary changes in his life.....this is why I question his spirituality.
Most folks don`t WISH they were the man they know to be.....dogone it...they just DO it.
Oakspear, I think that you have a very valid point....I have long wondered if God works within folks within the sphere of that they will allow or can comprehend.....thus the instruction to identify one another by the *fruit* .
You have someone who professes Christ but acts like a royal sob destroying lives taking that which wasn`t his...ignoring every instruction given to us biblically.....and then you have someone who demonstrates peace longsuffering meekness...etc but is of a different faith... exemplifies *love God and Love your neighbor*
Which one is behaving more Christ like? Which one is following the instructions in the scriptures?
I`ll trust fruit over lables ANY day.
Reminds me of the story about the 2 sons who were told to go to work in the fields....one said hell no....but went and did what his dad asked...the other said yeah he`d be there and bailed.....one said the right words....one did the will of his father.
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oldiesman
Depends on what scriptures you are talking about.
When one trusts God and Jesus, one doesn't need to trust in fruit, or labels.
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rascal
Then WHY did he say...*by their FRUIT ye shall know them*....obviously there were folks who could pass as Christians that were not.....
Your leaders and your ministry failed that test given in the scriptures, no matter how much *word they preached* or *how much they prayed* or HOW *thankfull they were to the one true God*
Jim Jones did the very same things......that did not necessarily make his congregation a spiritually nor physically healthy place to be.
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oldiesman
Now you are accusing twi leaders and ministry of not having/manifesting the fruit of the spirit?
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rascal
PRECISELY!!!!!
That is exactly what I am saying. What I DID see manifested frequently in twi leaders vp and lcm in particular....has been labled in galatians (thank you tlb :) ) as fruit of those who are *of the flesh*.
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justloafing
I wonder if they believed any thing they were teaching. I think it was a buisness and all the bad things that happened to people was for their enjoyment. It also seems they did not care who they hurt.
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rascal
Just loafing ...I will even give them the benefit of the doubt....that maybe they truly believed that *all things are lawfull* *let him who eat meat not condemneth he who doesn`t* *all parts of the body being of equal honor* *all the women belong to the king*
What I question is whether or not they were genuine christians based on the fruit manifested .... in SPITE of their knowledge of scriptures.
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oldiesman
Golly, I didn't think God was posting with us. :P
I didn't know there was FRUIT of the flesh, I thought there were WORKS of the flesh.
Yeah they committed adultery, a work of the flesh.
But to say that they failed to have any fruit of the spirit, is something I did not know.
Thanks God. :D
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justloafing
Well I may get slammed for this one but.............from what I have read since WayDale twi was off the Word in so many areas. They twisted areas to meet their own perverstion. So yes they may have believed what they were teaching but they did not believe what the bible said.
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