Then what? I've spent the vast majority of my 49 years of life believing in a benevolent spiritual being who is interested in the affairs of humanity and is actively involved on our behalf. Step by step I've watched my view of God change from actively involved to maybe involved to whimsically involved to not involved at all and to even questioning any actual benevolence.
But even when my faith was shot and my senses rebelled in light of my discoveries, I still wanted to pray and still remotely hoped for God's daily guidance and perhaps a chance at eternal life at some point in the future. What takes the place of beliefs that are that deeply held? Where does one go from here? The world seems a cold, hard place without hope if there is no God. But if I'm honest with myself, I have to admit this is a real possibility.
Or maybe my failing faith has more to do with my expectations of God. Maybe my understanding of things like miracles or the 'new man' or manifestations or the source of the bible is flawed and my expectation of involvement like this is not what God is really about at all. Or maybe God has blown off the world like he supposedly did between Malachi and Matthew.
I guess I'm kind of curious as to whether others are fighting this battle and what you have done or are doing about it. What goes through your head when you contemplate life and its meaning and the possiblity that that there really isn't a God?
-JJ
Great thread, JumpinJive - and in a weird philosophical wannabe sorta way I LOVE these kind of discussions...And in keeping with my philosophical wannabe-ness I have to also ask myself why I enjoy these discussions. I think it's because of a couple of reasons: I enjoy hearing/learning about other points of view and it gets me to analyze my own viewpoint. So, what I'm about to share is in response to your initial post and is totally my humble opinion.
For me the hardest time I had with matters of faith was in the first couple of years after leaving TWI. And that was over reconciling some of my beliefs with reality...As I kept thinking about how I perceived God's involvement with His creation through either TWI teachings or my interpretation of the Bible - I, for lack of a better description, would try to look past these "intellectual embellishments." So, when I read of Adam and Eve in the Garden I see an account of God as a parent letting His kids become responsible people. Even if that meant they royally screw things up. He had them work in the Garden. He let Adam name the animals. I'm not saying God is aloof - uninvolved with His creation. I'm saying He really put a lot into it - and again for lack of a better description - let's it run it's course...
...On another thread when someone stated "you can't go beyond what you're taught," I then debated that point by asking what if the student goes beyond the teacher or better yet how are discoveries made or technology improved upon or even invented. The person's response to the source of discoveries and technological advancements was they either got it by revelation from God or the Devil. I asked for scriptural references for their assertion and still have not received any. I mention the debate here - not to belittle the poster - but to reveal a little more of my opinion on the subject [the subject of critical thinking and creative thinking]. Great discoveries and technological wonders [coming from "saint and sinner" alike] attests to man being made in the image of God - and this amazing thing He made - our brains!
...Again - just my opinion - but God strikes me as someone that often operates very subtly when He does get involved in the affairs of His creation. I think sometimes we want Him to be so overt - like in man's redemption. "Okay, God - just come on down to earth - strike this tree over here if you want me to believe." I wonder if that's how a lot of people were thinking the Messiah was going to come on the scene - with a powerful entrance - a king. Instead, a lowly carpenter shows up. I think about in the gospels where Jesus described how the Holy Spirit would work in our lives: like the wind blowing through the trees. You can see, feel, hear the effect of the wind - but you can't see the wind, can't see the source. I used to think the Bible was all about revealing the inner workings of the universe - where I could learn the secrets to have more power in my life. Now I think it's about the inner workings of the Spirit, of the heart, of the soul, etc. I tend to view the Bible as something that touches my soul as well as intellect. Since we are fallen creatures I think the Bible is more about giving us moral guidance than revealing "trade secrets of how to control reality."
...So, thinking about reducing my belief system down to a core of beliefs: I subscribe to the intelligent design theory, I believe this intelligent Designer also had the Bible written, I believe my top priority is to love God and my neighbor as myself...And this top priority is about relationships - with God and other people. So in my opinion - I think God chooses NOT to overpower us, or to come on strong. You know how some relationships can be: subtle, complex, profound, etc...To answer your question [finally after all that ] when I think "what if there is no God," the only thing I can come up with is: life is then meaningless - and wow what a fantastic orderly chain of events - I am one lucky dude - sure glad chance took a chance on me !
Well, you're certainly welcome, T-Bone! And thank *you* for the response.
...And this top priority is about relationships - with God and other people.
And there is the rub. What exactly does that mean? I've never known what a relationship with God meant beyond a vague good feeling I sometimes got when I prayed. It didn't seem to be any different than the same vague good feelings I sometimes get when talking to a friend, reading an inspiring story or having a beer. But sometimes I was able to convince myself it came directly from God and that maybe some of this stuff was real.
Come to think of it, does God really have to be that subtle? Subtle to the point where his creation can viably conclude His non-existence? If that's the case, why record things like the parting of the Red Sea or the miracles of Jesus? There is plenty of in-your-face, visible heavenly activity in the bible. Why can't God even carry on simple conversation with His children? Try that with one of your own kids and see where it gets you. "Honey, you should have listened for my still small voice that was telling you not to take the car. Now you're grounded!"
As you can tell, I've come to no real conclusions since I started this thread beyond I just don't know. I suspect its a lifetime pursuit and even that might not be enough.
I do, however, agree with sudossuda: markomalley's posts are pretty good.
Then what? I've spent the vast majority of my 49 years of life believing in a benevolent spiritual being who is interested in the affairs of humanity and is actively involved on our behalf. Step by step I've watched my view of God change from actively involved to maybe involved to whimsically involved to not involved at all and to even questioning any actual benevolence.
But even when my faith was shot and my senses rebelled in light of my discoveries, I still wanted to pray and still remotely hoped for God's daily guidance and perhaps a chance at eternal life at some point in the future. What takes the place of beliefs that are that deeply held? Where does one go from here? The world seems a cold, hard place without hope if there is no God. But if I'm honest with myself, I have to admit this is a real possibility.
Or maybe my failing faith has more to do with my expectations of God. Maybe my understanding of things like miracles or the 'new man' or manifestations or the source of the bible is flawed and my expectation of involvement like this is not what God is really about at all. Or maybe God has blown off the world like he supposedly did between Malachi and Matthew.
I guess I'm kind of curious as to whether others are fighting this battle and what you have done or are doing about it. What goes through your head when you contemplate life and its meaning and the possiblity that that there really isn't a God?
-JJ
I am fighting this same battle. Now I know I'm not alone. Peace to you JJ.
I guess the short answer for me, is I approach GOD with no expectations, but I approach him the knowledge (my knowledge, maybe not yours or anyone else's) that he is there and listening. IMO TWI tried to bring GOD down to our level. God isn't at my level, (which is really a good thing considering how badly I screw things up on a routine basis)
He's on a level far above me he not only sees my trees and, my whole forest that encompasses them, but all the other trees and all the other forests and so makes his decisions based on the good of all the forests.
It's like the ad where the butterfly in Brazil flaps it's wings and the resulting ripple culminates in a hearty gust of wind in New York.
All things work together, and if we don't get the answer we desire then it is, IMO, because the actual answer is necessary so that another person can do something else that impacts a third person and so on --the ultimate result is us all returning to GOD in the end.
Sometimes thinking of the picture so big, that I in my finite mortality can't even comprehend the size of it much less the variables involved, helps me understand that I am not the only person God is responsible for and I can't expect to get what I want if in doing so it will either harm or hinder another of his children.
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T-Bone
Great thread, JumpinJive - and in a weird philosophical wannabe sorta way I LOVE these kind of discussions...And in keeping with my philosophical wannabe-ness I have to also ask myself why I enjoy these discussions. I think it's because of a couple of reasons: I enjoy hearing/learning about other points of view and it gets me to analyze my own viewpoint. So, what I'm about to share is in response to your initial post and is totally my humble opinion.
For me the hardest time I had with matters of faith was in the first couple of years after leaving TWI. And that was over reconciling some of my beliefs with reality...As I kept thinking about how I perceived God's involvement with His creation through either TWI teachings or my interpretation of the Bible - I, for lack of a better description, would try to look past these "intellectual embellishments." So, when I read of Adam and Eve in the Garden I see an account of God as a parent letting His kids become responsible people. Even if that meant they royally screw things up. He had them work in the Garden. He let Adam name the animals. I'm not saying God is aloof - uninvolved with His creation. I'm saying He really put a lot into it - and again for lack of a better description - let's it run it's course...
...On another thread when someone stated "you can't go beyond what you're taught," I then debated that point by asking what if the student goes beyond the teacher or better yet how are discoveries made or technology improved upon or even invented. The person's response to the source of discoveries and technological advancements was they either got it by revelation from God or the Devil. I asked for scriptural references for their assertion and still have not received any. I mention the debate here - not to belittle the poster - but to reveal a little more of my opinion on the subject [the subject of critical thinking and creative thinking]. Great discoveries and technological wonders [coming from "saint and sinner" alike] attests to man being made in the image of God - and this amazing thing He made - our brains!
...Again - just my opinion - but God strikes me as someone that often operates very subtly when He does get involved in the affairs of His creation. I think sometimes we want Him to be so overt - like in man's redemption. "Okay, God - just come on down to earth - strike this tree over here if you want me to believe." I wonder if that's how a lot of people were thinking the Messiah was going to come on the scene - with a powerful entrance - a king. Instead, a lowly carpenter shows up. I think about in the gospels where Jesus described how the Holy Spirit would work in our lives: like the wind blowing through the trees. You can see, feel, hear the effect of the wind - but you can't see the wind, can't see the source. I used to think the Bible was all about revealing the inner workings of the universe - where I could learn the secrets to have more power in my life. Now I think it's about the inner workings of the Spirit, of the heart, of the soul, etc. I tend to view the Bible as something that touches my soul as well as intellect. Since we are fallen creatures I think the Bible is more about giving us moral guidance than revealing "trade secrets of how to control reality."
...So, thinking about reducing my belief system down to a core of beliefs: I subscribe to the intelligent design theory, I believe this intelligent Designer also had the Bible written, I believe my top priority is to love God and my neighbor as myself...And this top priority is about relationships - with God and other people. So in my opinion - I think God chooses NOT to overpower us, or to come on strong. You know how some relationships can be: subtle, complex, profound, etc...To answer your question [finally after all that
] when I think "what if there is no God," the only thing I can come up with is: life is then meaningless - and wow what a fantastic orderly chain of events - I am one lucky dude - sure glad chance took a chance on me 
!
...Again - thanks JumpinJive - great thread.
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JumpinJive
Well, you're certainly welcome, T-Bone! And thank *you* for the response.
And there is the rub. What exactly does that mean? I've never known what a relationship with God meant beyond a vague good feeling I sometimes got when I prayed. It didn't seem to be any different than the same vague good feelings I sometimes get when talking to a friend, reading an inspiring story or having a beer. But sometimes I was able to convince myself it came directly from God and that maybe some of this stuff was real.
Come to think of it, does God really have to be that subtle? Subtle to the point where his creation can viably conclude His non-existence? If that's the case, why record things like the parting of the Red Sea or the miracles of Jesus? There is plenty of in-your-face, visible heavenly activity in the bible. Why can't God even carry on simple conversation with His children? Try that with one of your own kids and see where it gets you. "Honey, you should have listened for my still small voice that was telling you not to take the car. Now you're grounded!"
As you can tell, I've come to no real conclusions since I started this thread beyond I just don't know. I suspect its a lifetime pursuit and even that might not be enough.
I do, however, agree with sudossuda: markomalley's posts are pretty good.
-JJ
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markomalley
Mrs. Sudo/JJ:
Thanks
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nolongerlurking
I am fighting this same battle. Now I know I'm not alone. Peace to you JJ.
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templelady
I guess the short answer for me, is I approach GOD with no expectations, but I approach him the knowledge (my knowledge, maybe not yours or anyone else's) that he is there and listening. IMO TWI tried to bring GOD down to our level. God isn't at my level, (which is really a good thing considering how badly I screw things up on a routine basis)
He's on a level far above me he not only sees my trees and, my whole forest that encompasses them, but all the other trees and all the other forests and so makes his decisions based on the good of all the forests.
It's like the ad where the butterfly in Brazil flaps it's wings and the resulting ripple culminates in a hearty gust of wind in New York.
All things work together, and if we don't get the answer we desire then it is, IMO, because the actual answer is necessary so that another person can do something else that impacts a third person and so on --the ultimate result is us all returning to GOD in the end.
Sometimes thinking of the picture so big, that I in my finite mortality can't even comprehend the size of it much less the variables involved, helps me understand that I am not the only person God is responsible for and I can't expect to get what I want if in doing so it will either harm or hinder another of his children.
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