Joseph Atwill had some pretty good insight into this idea in his book, Ceasar's Messiah. But you need an understanding of the events of 66CE to about 73CE (aproximately), with Titus' destruction of the temple and finding Simeon hiding under a rock.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
(standard note: Matthew was originally written in Aramaic. Both the word Peter and the word Rock are the aramaic word "keepa" -- meaning rock -- contrary to the private interpretations made by a lot of folks these days)
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
..........................
If you ever do a word study on the word "keys", you will note that the "keys" were a symbol of authority that a ruler gave his prime minister (or a master gave his very most trusted servant); it was literally symbolic of trusting the person with the "keys to the kingdom." I think that I've put the study up here before someplace...
WW did well by quoting John 16, but he should have kept going:
Jhn 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Jhn 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Jhn 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more;
Jhn 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Jhn 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Jhn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Jhn 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jesus is forecasting the day of Pentacost to the apostles in this conversation. We can see elsewhere how He provided the authority to all of the apostles. The quote from Matthew 16 that I provided above shows how he formally provided 'prime ministerial' authority to Peter. Note that he said "upon this rock I will build my church." He said that he would do the building. The remainder of the John 16 verses that I provided show in a little way how the comforter would work with the apostles to do God's will and to build that Church.
The other piece of it, as brought out in Matthew 28:20 (quoted above) show that He promised the apostles that He would be with them until the end of the age (the greek word aion: which means forever, to the end of the world, or to the end of the age. It is derived from the word 'aei': meaning always). Now we can see how he inteded to set up His church and that He would provide them the comforter...
But if we look at Matthew 18:20, we see "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
This becomes even more real through the Pauline theology of the "body of Christ"
Rom 12:5 "so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."
1Cr 12:27 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. "
etc.
So, hopefully, this provides a synthesis of how your friend's statement, "Someone Jesus Christ has not gone anywhere, but is here on earth building His church."
Now you can get a lot more literal with this, but to do so you have to look at the theology of the historic Church (Latin, Greek, Eastern) and leave behind the theology of western Protestantism. And I don't think that too many people around these parts care about what the Maronite (Antioch) church, the Chaldean church, the Coptic church, etc. teach about that subject...so I'll leave it alone...
The Comforter/Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is our indwelling connection to Christ who is our connection to Heavenly Father. So Christ is with us in the sense of having the Holy Ghost. Through that connection the manifestations are operated and his commandments revealed. Thus the work he desires to have done here on earth is done.
But Jesus Christ is not physically here on earth. Consider Him as the architect, The Holy Ghost is the Contractor and those who believe the subcontractors.
Thanks, ex10! I will definitely Google that. :) I appreciate the direction.
Thank you all for the posts! Definitely somethings - great things - to think about and look at with my friend. She took me off guard when she mentioned that - it was totally new to me. LOL!
Jesus was referring to his body as the Temple because:
In ancient Israel, the temple was the only place that Jews could worship. (Before that the tabernacle.) They did have synoguoges throughout Judea, but they were meeting places for teaching. No one could sacrifice in them.
Jesus gave himself as the final, living, ultimate sacrifice. He was the Lamb of God. Once he gave himself and God raised him from the dead, it ushered in a new relationship between God and his people. That's why the veil was torn. They didn't realize it yet, but Temple worship was to become a thing of the past. (See Hebrews.) That's the reason the Jews got so offended at what he said in John 2:19.
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GT
Joseph Atwill had some pretty good insight into this idea in his book, Ceasar's Messiah. But you need an understanding of the events of 66CE to about 73CE (aproximately), with Titus' destruction of the temple and finding Simeon hiding under a rock.
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WordWolf
John 16:7.
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,
I will send him unto you."
So, seated at the right hand of The Father, check.
Ever our advocate with The Father, check.
Comforter was sent here, check.
Unless someone's equating the Comforter here with the Lord THERE,
then, no, he's not here in any OTHER sense.
Inasmuch as Jesus AND the Comforter make known God,
then one might say something like that.
Kinda.
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ex10
yeah, what WW said.
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markomalley
What WW and ex10 said, sort of:
Also add the following:
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
(standard note: Matthew was originally written in Aramaic. Both the word Peter and the word Rock are the aramaic word "keepa" -- meaning rock -- contrary to the private interpretations made by a lot of folks these days)
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
..........................
If you ever do a word study on the word "keys", you will note that the "keys" were a symbol of authority that a ruler gave his prime minister (or a master gave his very most trusted servant); it was literally symbolic of trusting the person with the "keys to the kingdom." I think that I've put the study up here before someplace...
WW did well by quoting John 16, but he should have kept going:
Jhn 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Jhn 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Jhn 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more;
Jhn 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Jhn 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Jhn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Jhn 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jesus is forecasting the day of Pentacost to the apostles in this conversation. We can see elsewhere how He provided the authority to all of the apostles. The quote from Matthew 16 that I provided above shows how he formally provided 'prime ministerial' authority to Peter. Note that he said "upon this rock I will build my church." He said that he would do the building. The remainder of the John 16 verses that I provided show in a little way how the comforter would work with the apostles to do God's will and to build that Church.
The other piece of it, as brought out in Matthew 28:20 (quoted above) show that He promised the apostles that He would be with them until the end of the age (the greek word aion: which means forever, to the end of the world, or to the end of the age. It is derived from the word 'aei': meaning always). Now we can see how he inteded to set up His church and that He would provide them the comforter...
But if we look at Matthew 18:20, we see "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
This becomes even more real through the Pauline theology of the "body of Christ"
Rom 12:5 "so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."
1Cr 12:27 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. "
etc.
So, hopefully, this provides a synthesis of how your friend's statement, "Someone Jesus Christ has not gone anywhere, but is here on earth building His church."
Now you can get a lot more literal with this, but to do so you have to look at the theology of the historic Church (Latin, Greek, Eastern) and leave behind the theology of western Protestantism. And I don't think that too many people around these parts care about what the Maronite (Antioch) church, the Chaldean church, the Coptic church, etc. teach about that subject...so I'll leave it alone...
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templelady
LDS Theology says
The Comforter/Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is our indwelling connection to Christ who is our connection to Heavenly Father. So Christ is with us in the sense of having the Holy Ghost. Through that connection the manifestations are operated and his commandments revealed. Thus the work he desires to have done here on earth is done.
But Jesus Christ is not physically here on earth. Consider Him as the architect, The Holy Ghost is the Contractor and those who believe the subcontractors.
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ex10
Belle,
I suspect your friend might attend a church that subscribes to "Kingdom Now" or "Dominion Theology." Do a google on it. :)
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CM
When Jesus said destroy this temple and rebuild it in three days
referring to himself
what did he mean? was he some how changed?
this would make Jesus different then what he was in the gospels
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Belle
Thanks, ex10! I will definitely Google that. :) I appreciate the direction.
Thank you all for the posts! Definitely somethings - great things - to think about and look at with my friend. She took me off guard when she mentioned that - it was totally new to me. LOL!
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ex10
CM
I assume you are referring to John 2:19?
Jesus was referring to his body as the Temple because:
In ancient Israel, the temple was the only place that Jews could worship. (Before that the tabernacle.) They did have synoguoges throughout Judea, but they were meeting places for teaching. No one could sacrifice in them.
Jesus gave himself as the final, living, ultimate sacrifice. He was the Lamb of God. Once he gave himself and God raised him from the dead, it ushered in a new relationship between God and his people. That's why the veil was torn. They didn't realize it yet, but Temple worship was to become a thing of the past. (See Hebrews.) That's the reason the Jews got so offended at what he said in John 2:19.
Hope that helps. ;)
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oldiesman
Golly if Christ is back then someone please ask him to come over for a Drambuie.
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CM
hmmm...yeah ex10
his body
temples are a figure of the spiritual
when they worshipped in the temple they weren't
worshipping the temple, but just in it
i think there is more to John 2:18
and the other references then we may expect
the earthly which is the new birth
(ref-Jesus talking to nic-born of water and spirit)
and the spiritual-that which was and is and will be
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CM
if Jesus is at the right hand of God then
finding God would find where Jesus is
i don't think it's some distant place that can not be reached
Jesus said he was going away, and the comforter would come
what really happened?
obviously Jesus was different after the resurrection
as he appeared to many
in Acts 1 he ascended, but how far away?
Jesus appearing and disappearing
and the 2 men that said he would return in like manner
the manner in which he left is a cloud received him out of their sight
Acts 1:9 out of sight but not out of mind :)
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