I dont know where to start for me, but I know if you spend sometime looking through the threads that have already been posted you will find out a lot, on a variety of subjects concerning life in TWI.
Like I said --Welcome-
Im pretty sure someone will be along shortly to guide you a little better--meanwhile have alook around and familairize yourself with the place---you'll find a lot of interesting things
yeah... just read through the threads on "About The Way" (don't limit yourself to the first page)... if you see something that you want to know more about then PM the poster...
(oh, PM is private message-click on their name and you'll see a place to click to send them a PM)
welcome... look around... you'll find plenty here I'm sure...
Hi, I'm sure a lot of us would be able to help if you wanted to post some specific questions. It's kind of hard to know what you're asking with such a general topic and post. :)
In world cultures class we are talking about cults and we are researching them. I picked twi because my mom and my father was in it for a while and got out of it when i was a baby. I am also researching this particular topic because i want to know more about my mom and what she and ppl around her had to go through...if you, the one who is reading this doesnt mind, i would like to hear your story...
This is a lot of help and i want to thank those who are willing to help me out. ^_^
Well,
if you need help, I'm willing to point you to all the information.
I'm sure it's all either on a message thread or in the documents
on the main website already.
Of course,
the FIRST thing to know is, roughly when were they in?
Back in the early 70s, things were fairly low-structured.
By the late 70s, the first structures were put in place by vpw.
By the early 80s, structures pretty much locked in everything.
In 1985, vpw died, and things started to get REALLY weird.
1985-1988 was the "fog years", where lcm-vpw's successor-
wandered around after "the Passing of the Patriarch" was read.
1989 was when lcm drew his "line in the sand", and demanded
an oath of loyalty. 80% of the membership all left at once.
The early 90s were a period of rebuilding, as lcm slowly
replaced all vpw's classes and programs with his own.
From 1994 onward lcm tied the noose tight, and membership
became tantamount to slavery.
That's just a rough sketch.
Now, there's lots of threads that will give you some background.
For a general overview, check out "Greasespot 101".
That's got a thread to help familiarize yourself with many
basic concept and terms.
Now, I started a number of threads that might be of help,
depending on what you're looking for.
(I'm big on trying to assemble the history.)
If you put in my name and search for threads with
the title "Eyewitnesses", you'll see a variety of threads
with some general information by people in the group
during different timeframes.
If you search for titles containing "wonderland" and my
name, you'll get 2 other threads.
"the way:living in wonderland" is a thread that explores
the in-house book/advertisement,
"the way:living in love." It also serves as a biography
of vpw himself. (The last few pages include some
drafts of a biography, compiled from the thread and
a few sources.)
"vp and me in wonderland" is a thread that explores
the in-house book, "vp and me", written by lcm.
It provides a look at lcm's life and training, a look at
what vpw was like when he thought no one was
looking, and life for the way corps.
So, depending on what you're looking for, some of those
In world cultures class we are talking about cults and we are researching them. I picked twi because my mom and my father was in it for a while and got out of it when i was a baby. I am also researching this particular topic because i want to know more about my mom and what she and ppl around her had to go through...if you, the one who is reading this doesnt mind, i would like to hear your story...
This is a lot of help and i want to thank those who are willing to help me out. ^_^
Hmmm. As ChasUFarley said, "have you asked your folks?"
They could probably tell you a lot. Seek their comments FIRST.
It would be great to get their perspective, but other input is helpful too.
Reason I say this, is because there is a spectrum of us here that span a period of nigh on 40 years,
and the it was not the same for some, as it was for others. :)
If you narrow it down to a time period ( say, 1990 - 2000), we could help better.
If you want me to help, narrow it down to 1975 - 1986. ;)
In world cultures class we are talking about cults and we are researching them. I picked twi because my mom and my father was in it for a while and got out of it when i was a baby. I am also researching this particular topic because i want to know more about my mom and what she and ppl around her had to go through...if you, the one who is reading this doesnt mind, i would like to hear your story...
This is a lot of help and i want to thank those who are willing to help me out. ^_^
Welcome!
1. Why don't you ask some specific questions (one question per thread)?...I'm sure you'll get a whole host of answers.
2. After you've done enough research to develop a thesis statement, why don't you post it? ... I'm certain that there will be a lot of folks here who would be happy to help you generate some supports for it.
3. After you're done with your paper, if you're interested, I'm sure that the admins here would be thrilled to publish it on this site. Speaking for myself, I'd be very interested in reading it once you're done.
I asked my mom this morning what her sn was on here, because she is the one who refered me to this site..
my mom is vickles.
i dont know if any of you know her.. (i can't call and ask her what years she was in it right now because i am in class but i will call her at lunch.. and let post it when i find out.)
as for questions, here's a few:
Did anyone try to control you?
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they?
Were you scared at any point and why?
What drew you to this group?
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will?
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
What beliefs did/do they follow?
What did you think was really false about the group?
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
Were there money issues?
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
Your mom is aces! I admire her for encouraging you to get other opinions and stories beside just her own. She was, is, and always will be one of the best.
I adore your mom and just yesterday was wondering how she's doing! Please do tell her she's loved and missed around here. :)
WordWolf has given you loads of information there and he's the resident index guru of the site, imo. I'll type some answers up for you later as well, but those sections that WordWolf recommended will have lots of different input on the questions you asked. Those are all good questions and all things we've talked about quite a bit on here.
Did anyone try to control you? I think that really depended on how old a person was when they got involved, whether they were male or female, what kind of leadership they had in their area, etc. The term 'mind control' around here is a hotly debated term. LOL For me, it was more like 'strongly encouraged to follow directions...and with grave consequences if you didn't'. Others, in later years, were subject to more actual control.
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they? Oh man! I can't directly address this, but if you look around there are many, many stories about what happened when someone in corps or some other program became pregnant without permission. I think there's even a link to information on the main page of GreaseSpot.
Were you scared at any point and why? In Alaska there was a pedophile ring being operated under the guise of 'Children's Fellowship'. Our family happened to be one of the families caught in that trap. I turned over all information I had to the Alaska authorities. Afterwards I was very afraid of one of the perps because he would sit out in front of our apartment building, night after night...and he was a VERY violent person. The fear I experienced in twi was more about individuals rather than the whole group.
What drew you to this group? I was 16 when I got involved...and I was 'in love'...and he was involved.
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will? See my answer to your first question.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group? Since twi touted that there was no such thing as 'membership' in the group, the 'rules' were fluid and depended upon who you were, where you were, what leadership you had, etc. This is a very slippery organization. But I never went corps or anything...so I really can't address this too much.
What beliefs did/do they follow? The biggies, imo, are: Jesus Christ is Not God; the dead are not alive now (no immediate trip to 'heaven' or 'hell' upon death); absent Jesus (Jesus went to heaven and now there's only us believers who have 'christ in us' and replace Jesus in the world today); Manifestations and Gift Ministries (speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophets, teachers etc...what most people outside of twi consider 'pentecostal'); Administrations (aka 'dispensationalism' outside of twi).
What did you think was really false about the group? TWI taught 'the love of god in the renewed mind in manifestation'. TWI was NOT EVER about the love of God.
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things? OMG!!! Yes!!! Uncle Hairy Day was all about burning books, records/tapes/cds, clothing, posters, knick-knacks, etc just in case they 'harbored devil spirits'. Basically anything non-twi produced was suspect as 'devilish'.
Were there money issues? Whew! Another YES!!!! Beginning with tithing twi demanded at least 10%. It was 'strongly encouraged' (i.e., considered most important to prove one's worthiness to 'god') to give 15-20%. The WOW program demanded people work only 4 hours a day so that they could do their ministry work the rest of the time. I don't know much about the corps program. There was the 'no debt' policy...which I can't address as I was out of twi when that became the norm. TWI demanded attendance at every and all meetings...which so often put a financial burden on people as work was missed/jobs lost in favor of attending functions, later on people were demanded to drive as much as 200 miles to attend meetings/functions, always another class to take...and each class cost big $$, on and on twi demanded time and money that ended up costing people everything.
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used? EEEEEK YES!!!! Earlier it was The Way Tree, later on it became the Golden Bible.
What is PFAL? PFAL=Power For Abundant Living. It was the 'foundational class' that twi used to indoctrinate people. It is mostly plagiarized material vpw 'put together' in books and then twisted beyond recognition in the class (imo).
What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)? Originally The Way was structured like a 'tree'. The 'roots' being international headquarters in New Knoxville, OH; each country being a 'trunk'; each state being a 'limb'; each city/location being a 'branch'; each fellowship being a 'twig'; each person being a 'leaf'. It took 7 leaves to make a twig, 7 twigs to make a branch. From there I don't know how they determined anything. A 'twig coordinator' was a person who ran the twig.
Do a search here. There are threads that discuss everything you've asked. :)
And tell your Mama "hi! I miss you!" for me, too. How is she?
Answers. First, for context, I'd please ask you to read my bio here.
Did anyone try to control you? Not directly, but subtlely...that would/ would not be "best" to do x, y, z. I never was in some sort of a position to be controlled.
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they? n/a
Were you scared at any point and why? Not really, but when I decided it was time to exit, I kept my exit plans strictly to myself...and disappeared.
What drew you to this group? I saw a tremendous amount of love and dedication, along with what I personally experienced, a lack of judgementalism, that I perceived was sorely lacking in the mainstream groups at the time.
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will? I "brainwashed" myself. When I first got turned on by this group, I was so enamoured by it that I devoted almost all my waking hours to the mastery of its theology and customs. I truly believed that what they were presenting was the actual truth of the matter and so pursued it full time. So, as a result, I reoriented my own thinking so that it would be in sync with this group completely.
Note: part of this group's teachings involved a practice called "renewing the mind." This involved blocking all thoughts out of one's mind that were not in accordance with the teachings of this group. Much of the "self-brainwashing" involved an intense effort to "renew my mind" to think in accord with the way I should think. Also please note that I, to this day, believe that there is some value to be gotten from the practice of controlling one's own thinking, my primary argument these days is with what one was to "renew one's mind" to, along with the excess to which that could be taken.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
There were a number of them that were in existence. The sexual mores within some of the more initiated of this group were dramatically at odds with those that would conventionally be associated with Christian thought. Essentially, the belief was that "free sex" was not at odds with Christian morality, as long as you were "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. (For a young single guy who was deemed to be fairly "spiritually mature," it was a rather enjoyable abberation :D )
As you should be able to discover, there was a school of thought that would be comofortable with some elements of the "Christian Identity" movement of the 70s-90s, the "Patriot" movement, and other far right-wing movements. A fairly good compendium of those threads could be found at the TWI & Holocaust Teachings thread, recently compiled by Belle.
There were many teachings that I became familiar with over time that were restricted to the more intitiated (classes such as Christian Family & Sex, Dealing With the Adversary, and the Advanced Class come to mind). From what I gather, many more of these teachings were only made known to those in the Way Corps leadership training.
What beliefs did/do they follow?
THeir beliefs were a combination of the Word/Faith, Pentacostal, Identity, Jehovah's Witness/Arian, and other Protestant theologies.
What did you think was really false about the group?
See above. (I follow a personal theology that would be best characterized as an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox theology, although I attend a Latin church)
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
Not from my personal experience, but others have vastly different experiences than I, particularly those who were involved with the group in the 90s.
Were there money issues?
From my personal experience, a person wase required to "abundantly share" -- rated at 15% or more of gross (pre-tax) income. In order to take certain classes, one would have to be able to document that he regularly "abundantly shared." The sharing was audited prior to being accepted for classes, but the amount of the sharing was not. There are others, again who were involved in the 90s for the most part, who stated that their incomes were monitored to ensure that the amount shared met or exceeded this 15% floor.
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
The Way Tree (an Oak tree as I recall) and the Dove.
hat is PFAL?
"Power for Abundant Living." A series of three classes that formed the doctrinal initiation of all new members. The foundational, intermediate, and advanced classes. There were also a number of collateral classes that one was allowed to attend after completing the intermediate class.
What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)?
"Twig" was the trade name for a home fellowship. Its use was related to the "Way Tree". A twig coordinator was the person who was charged with being the pastor for the home fellowship (which could be anything from 3 to 20+ people...usually, they split up the twigs when the numbers regularly exceeded 20...again, in my experience).
Please keep in mind that my experiences were somewhat limited compared to others. But, if you are gathering broad-based information, I hope that they provide you a good data point.
Again, I'd love to see the paper when you're done with it!
There were rules about whether or not you could travel out of the state - even if it was just to go shopping for an hour or visit a relative - you had to fill out a form and have it approved ahead of time. You had to pass in a schedule each week about your plans about the upcoming week - it was set up by hourly increments for each day of the week. Then, you had to pass info about how you went off schedule - how things changed from your plans, etc. So, there was control in that they wanted to know where you were, who you were with, and what happened. There's many other examples I could give you about this but the really ironic thing was that they always said, "you have freewill choice."
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they?
If you were on staff, as I was, you weren't supposed to get pregnant unless you were 30 or older for your first baby, and if it was your second baby it was if you were 35 or something like that. I know of a couple who were "dismissed" for having a slew of kids - I think they had like 7 or 8 kids - but they were great parents - good people. When I was on the fields (not on staff), I had a miscarriage and was told that I shouldn't use it as an excuse not to go to a meeting the following day that I was supposed to work set up crew for - so, I went.
Were you scared at any point and why?
I was scared everytime the phone rang after a while because it seemed like someone was always yelling about something or wanted something from you when you were spread so thin you felt like melted butter.
What drew you to this group?
There were some honestly nice people - good friends - even to this day. The Bible was taught like I'd never heard it taught - it "scratched an itch". The people so believed in what they were in to - it was contageous!
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will?
Some poster here once used the analogy of a frog in boiling water - supposedly, if you place a frog in a kettle of water, slowly turn up the heat, the frog will get comfortable, sleepy, and not realize he's about to be boiled until it's too late (gross, I know)... I got involved out of my own free will. I stayed involved because of my husband, and after my divorce because I felt "obligated". Also, there was a lot of teaching about how if you left, you would die - you would suffer - so, I was scared to leave. After a while, I just felt trapped.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
Where to begin... adultry didn't seem like a bad thing (but I dunno - never tried it, myself), abortion was perfectly acceptable - they taught a baby wasn't a living thing until it took a breath. Those are the big 'rules' or beliefs they held but never really addressed in print for EVERYONE.
What beliefs did/do they follow?
I'll see if I can find you their Statement Of Beliefs document. It doesn't sound any different from what any church might have BUT once you've had their classes, you learn to read between the lines.
What did you think was really false about the group?
The rules were always changing, yet they tried to quote (misuse) Bible verses to justify their flip-flop policies on things. People who you thought were friends would disclose intimate things about you - things you'd shared with them - to upper leadership, just to make themselves look good.
Another poster, someone who was in an upper leadership position, posted that he knew there were two sets of financial books - that was in the 1970's.
There's lots of things...
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
You were told to travel light - not have too many possessions. There was something called "Uncle Harry Day" - the founder's brother, Harry Wierwille, would weed out his house about once a year and purge things he no longer used or needed. Not a bad practice, really, but some people would go overboard. My husband laments about how "Uncle Harry" got his best Led Zepplin albums - LOL!
Were there money issues?
You were supposed to tithe plus more - tithe is 10% - but they taught you should share more - share of your abundance. Of course, most people worked grunt jobs, made min. wage and didn't have a lot of "abundance". It was a joke. You also weren't supposed to be in debt - NONE - not even a mortgage. Even child support was considered debt - I know of people who signed over their parental rights to their ex-spouse just to "get out of debt" - SICK!
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
You'll see a globe/tree looking thing. That's their trademark.
What is PFAL?
Power for Abundant Living is a 12 hour Bible class.
What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)?
The Way likes to use tree analogy - Headquarters is referred to as the Trunk, the state level leadership is referred to as Limbs, and the groups in the state that meet in the homes are called Twigs. The leaders of the home fellowships were called twig coordinators - they are now called "Household Fellowship Coordinators" because it was thought that the term twig coordinator was out-of-date...
All the time, but the control was incremental and ever so slowly. I always use Oakspear’s example of putting frogs in cool water and slowly turning the heat up, ever so slowly so that the frogs don’t notice. Eventually the water gets so warm it kills the frogs.
TWI always said that people are free to choose to “do the word” or to not “do the word”, but the consequences of not doing the word meant something horrible might happen to you or your family because God would not be able to protect you from the Devil if you don’t do the word.
The caveat was that what “doing the word” mean in TWI was based on illogical leaps and twisting of scripture and teaching what TWI wanted instead of what the Bible really says God expects and desires from His kids.
Example: TWI teaches that debt is sin and uses Romans 13:8 “Owe no man anything” to justify what they expect from their followers. That means any debt: house, car, hospital bills, unexpected immediate expenses, college loans, etc.
They put “conditions” of being out of debt in order to take their classes and participate in their programs. They also teach that if you’re in debt that God can’t “protect” you from anything the Devil wants to do to you which could mean killing someone in your family, horrible diseases like cancer (which is devil spirit possession according to TWI) and anything that might be your worst nightmare or fear.
So, according to TWI teaching, you can stay out of debt, follow their rules that they say are God’s will and be allowed to take classes and bask in the protection that God provides for His kids OR you can go into debt and take the chance that something horrible could happen to you or someone you love very much.
Is that control? I think so, but TWI says the choice is yours…..It’s a free will choice and they don’t control you in any way. It’s like telling people, imo, that they can do something horrible and oppressive or they can put a bullet to their head. Sure, it’s a choice, but, is it really?
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they?
I never experienced this. I do know people who were removed from leadership positions for getting pregnant against the desires, will and rules of TWI.
Were you scared at any point and why?
Always scared. Always afraid of being kicked out (Mark & Avoid in TWI terms). Afraid that if I decided to no longer associate with TWI, that they would break up my marriage. It happened. It’s because TWI wants complete control of individuals and if someone leaves TWI they may very well convince their spouse that TWI is wrong and then they will no longer have another person to control nor will they have that person’s money coming into the TWI bank accounts. Just my perspective and opinion.
What drew you to this group?
I originally met some really nice people and they could answer all kinds of questions about the Bible and they knew these scriptures from memory. It was very impressive. Now, I know that the answers they had and that so impressed me were wrong. I believe that there’s just some things we don’t know and can’t know and it’s better to say “I don’t know” than to subscribe to or believe someone just because they say they have an answer.
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will?
I think there’s a great deal of manipulation. Of course, based on my answers to the “control” question you asked above, I think that we never really had a choice. I think the atmosphere, teachings and “suggestions” along with the twisting of scriptures gave the illusion of us making our own decisions, but the reality was we didn’t really have a choice and weren’t fully able to do things according to our own will.
Some studies already done on this are the Stockholm Syndrome and there is also a prison experiment done at a college where the simulated a prison environment. I can’t recall the name off the top of my head, but if you really want to know, please let me know and I’ll look it up for you. I want to say it was the Stanford Prison Experiment, but that could be wrong.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
Sex is okay outside marriage.
Sharing the reasons people were kicked out of the group with the whole church….embarrassing details about people’s lives for the purpose of “educating” the church.
What beliefs did/do they follow?
Not sure I understand or know what you’re looking for here.
What did you think was really false about the group?
The “happy” and “abundant life” that people were supposedly living. It was more like a bunch of “stepford” believers (this only makes sense if you’ve seen Stepford Wives :D ).
What did I think while I was involved or once I got out? The above is something that I noticed while I was still involved. I learned a heck of a lot more once I left the group.
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
According to their debt policy and “owe no man anything” there was nothing you could own that you couldn’t pay cash for – that includes a house, a car and a college education.
If you were to own something considered “extravagant” by TWI standards, it was frowned upon.
People were forbidden to own “serious pets” and that includes dogs, cats, horses, etc. However, the woman who is now president of TWI has always owned cats.
People were forbidden to smoke. It started with leadership, but certain leaders were exempted from this rule and eventually it trickled down to mean that everyone in TWI who smoked had to stop smoking.
Were there money issues?
Yes, especially with the “no debt” policy that TWI eventually said they never had, but they never changed the “rules”.
Yes, because TWI taught that we were to give MINIMUM 15% of our income to them – not to other charities – not to give in terms of time or service in lieu of money – but 15% of our income and that constantly changed from net to gross to net to gross to net of our income.
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
The dove. Because it represented the gift of holy spirit.
They forbade their followers to have crosses on display and to wear crosses. They constantly taught that if Jesus was murdered by an electric chair or machine gun is that something we’d be wearing around our necks?
What is PFAL?
A class that taught the foundations of the control issues that TWI planned to implement the longer that people were involved. It also laid the groundwork for the control and justified the warped doctrines TWI teaches. Worse than that, the whole dam n thing was plagiarized and not original research as we were taught that it was. It’s also full of errors if someone were to really evaluate and study what was taught in this class.
What is "twig" ("twig" coordinator)?
Others have answered this very adequately.
Best wishes for you and please let us know what grade you get on your paper!!
Again, please feel free to contact me privately if you have any follow up questions or want more elaboration on these. :)
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mstar1
Welcome to greasespot nena,
I dont know where to start for me, but I know if you spend sometime looking through the threads that have already been posted you will find out a lot, on a variety of subjects concerning life in TWI.
Like I said --Welcome-
Im pretty sure someone will be along shortly to guide you a little better--meanwhile have alook around and familairize yourself with the place---you'll find a lot of interesting things
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Tom Strange
yeah... just read through the threads on "About The Way" (don't limit yourself to the first page)... if you see something that you want to know more about then PM the poster...
(oh, PM is private message-click on their name and you'll see a place to click to send them a PM)
welcome... look around... you'll find plenty here I'm sure...
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Belle
Hi, I'm sure a lot of us would be able to help if you wanted to post some specific questions. It's kind of hard to know what you're asking with such a general topic and post. :)
This is where you can find where people have already posted their story: My Story Section of the Forums
We'd love to help, but need more specifics of what you're looking for. And....WELCOME!!!
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ChasUFarley
I'm not asking this to make you go away or anything of the sort...
...and it could sound rude - I really don't mean for it to come across that way...
...BUT...
Have you just come out and asked your mom what it was like?
Also - Do you know what year(s) she was involved?
Welcome!
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WordWolf
Well,
if you need help, I'm willing to point you to all the information.
I'm sure it's all either on a message thread or in the documents
on the main website already.
Of course,
the FIRST thing to know is, roughly when were they in?
Back in the early 70s, things were fairly low-structured.
By the late 70s, the first structures were put in place by vpw.
By the early 80s, structures pretty much locked in everything.
In 1985, vpw died, and things started to get REALLY weird.
1985-1988 was the "fog years", where lcm-vpw's successor-
wandered around after "the Passing of the Patriarch" was read.
1989 was when lcm drew his "line in the sand", and demanded
an oath of loyalty. 80% of the membership all left at once.
The early 90s were a period of rebuilding, as lcm slowly
replaced all vpw's classes and programs with his own.
From 1994 onward lcm tied the noose tight, and membership
became tantamount to slavery.
That's just a rough sketch.
Now, there's lots of threads that will give you some background.
For a general overview, check out "Greasespot 101".
That's got a thread to help familiarize yourself with many
basic concept and terms.
Now, I started a number of threads that might be of help,
depending on what you're looking for.
(I'm big on trying to assemble the history.)
If you put in my name and search for threads with
the title "Eyewitnesses", you'll see a variety of threads
with some general information by people in the group
during different timeframes.
If you search for titles containing "wonderland" and my
name, you'll get 2 other threads.
"the way:living in wonderland" is a thread that explores
the in-house book/advertisement,
"the way:living in love." It also serves as a biography
of vpw himself. (The last few pages include some
drafts of a biography, compiled from the thread and
a few sources.)
"vp and me in wonderland" is a thread that explores
the in-house book, "vp and me", written by lcm.
It provides a look at lcm's life and training, a look at
what vpw was like when he thought no one was
looking, and life for the way corps.
So, depending on what you're looking for, some of those
will be of assistance. I'd at least read over the
"Wayspeak and Greasespot-speak" so that you can
get familiar with the lingo here.
Feel free to pass along questions.
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dmiller
Hmmm. As ChasUFarley said, "have you asked your folks?"
They could probably tell you a lot. Seek their comments FIRST.
It would be great to get their perspective, but other input is helpful too.
Reason I say this, is because there is a spectrum of us here that span a period of nigh on 40 years,
and the it was not the same for some, as it was for others. :)
If you narrow it down to a time period ( say, 1990 - 2000), we could help better.
If you want me to help, narrow it down to 1975 - 1986. ;)
Good Luck, and God Bless. :)
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markomalley
Welcome!
1. Why don't you ask some specific questions (one question per thread)?...I'm sure you'll get a whole host of answers.
2. After you've done enough research to develop a thesis statement, why don't you post it? ... I'm certain that there will be a lot of folks here who would be happy to help you generate some supports for it.
3. After you're done with your paper, if you're interested, I'm sure that the admins here would be thrilled to publish it on this site. Speaking for myself, I'd be very interested in reading it once you're done.
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Nena
I asked my mom this morning what her sn was on here, because she is the one who refered me to this site..
my mom is vickles.
i dont know if any of you know her.. (i can't call and ask her what years she was in it right now because i am in class but i will call her at lunch.. and let post it when i find out.)
as for questions, here's a few:
Did anyone try to control you?
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they?
Were you scared at any point and why?
What drew you to this group?
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will?
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
What beliefs did/do they follow?
What did you think was really false about the group?
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
Were there money issues?
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
What is PFAL?
What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)?
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markomalley
I'll be happy to answer when time permits, but in the meantime please say hello to your mother and pass on she is loved and missed around here!!!!!
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topoftheworld
Your mom is aces! I admire her for encouraging you to get other opinions and stories beside just her own. She was, is, and always will be one of the best.
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dmiller
Tell Vickles hi from me as well. I met her a couple of years ago
at a mini GreaseSpot get-together in Minneapolis.
She is a wonderful lady. :)
Like Mark, I'll answer what I can, when I can. Good luck on the paper.
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Belle
(((((Nena)))))
I adore your mom and just yesterday was wondering how she's doing! Please do tell her she's loved and missed around here. :)
WordWolf has given you loads of information there and he's the resident index guru of the site, imo. I'll type some answers up for you later as well, but those sections that WordWolf recommended will have lots of different input on the questions you asked. Those are all good questions and all things we've talked about quite a bit on here.
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dmiller
Nena -- Many of your questions can be answered if you click HERE.
John Lynn is a friend of mine, but many here at GS have had adverse experiences with him.
Adverse experiences aside, I think most will agree that he gives a fairly accurate history here.
Read what he has to say. It will give you a perspective to start from, if nothing else. :)
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CoolWaters
Answering for me and me alone. :)
Do a search here. There are threads that discuss everything you've asked. :)
And tell your Mama "hi! I miss you!" for me, too. How is she?
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markomalley
Answers. First, for context, I'd please ask you to read my bio here.
Did anyone try to control you? Not directly, but subtlely...that would/ would not be "best" to do x, y, z. I never was in some sort of a position to be controlled.
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they? n/a
Were you scared at any point and why? Not really, but when I decided it was time to exit, I kept my exit plans strictly to myself...and disappeared.
What drew you to this group? I saw a tremendous amount of love and dedication, along with what I personally experienced, a lack of judgementalism, that I perceived was sorely lacking in the mainstream groups at the time.
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will? I "brainwashed" myself. When I first got turned on by this group, I was so enamoured by it that I devoted almost all my waking hours to the mastery of its theology and customs. I truly believed that what they were presenting was the actual truth of the matter and so pursued it full time. So, as a result, I reoriented my own thinking so that it would be in sync with this group completely.
Note: part of this group's teachings involved a practice called "renewing the mind." This involved blocking all thoughts out of one's mind that were not in accordance with the teachings of this group. Much of the "self-brainwashing" involved an intense effort to "renew my mind" to think in accord with the way I should think. Also please note that I, to this day, believe that there is some value to be gotten from the practice of controlling one's own thinking, my primary argument these days is with what one was to "renew one's mind" to, along with the excess to which that could be taken.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
There were a number of them that were in existence. The sexual mores within some of the more initiated of this group were dramatically at odds with those that would conventionally be associated with Christian thought. Essentially, the belief was that "free sex" was not at odds with Christian morality, as long as you were "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. (For a young single guy who was deemed to be fairly "spiritually mature," it was a rather enjoyable abberation :D )
As you should be able to discover, there was a school of thought that would be comofortable with some elements of the "Christian Identity" movement of the 70s-90s, the "Patriot" movement, and other far right-wing movements. A fairly good compendium of those threads could be found at the TWI & Holocaust Teachings thread, recently compiled by Belle.
There were many teachings that I became familiar with over time that were restricted to the more intitiated (classes such as Christian Family & Sex, Dealing With the Adversary, and the Advanced Class come to mind). From what I gather, many more of these teachings were only made known to those in the Way Corps leadership training.
What beliefs did/do they follow?
THeir beliefs were a combination of the Word/Faith, Pentacostal, Identity, Jehovah's Witness/Arian, and other Protestant theologies.
What did you think was really false about the group?
See above. (I follow a personal theology that would be best characterized as an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox theology, although I attend a Latin church)
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
Not from my personal experience, but others have vastly different experiences than I, particularly those who were involved with the group in the 90s.
Were there money issues?
From my personal experience, a person wase required to "abundantly share" -- rated at 15% or more of gross (pre-tax) income. In order to take certain classes, one would have to be able to document that he regularly "abundantly shared." The sharing was audited prior to being accepted for classes, but the amount of the sharing was not. There are others, again who were involved in the 90s for the most part, who stated that their incomes were monitored to ensure that the amount shared met or exceeded this 15% floor.
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
The Way Tree (an Oak tree as I recall) and the Dove.
hat is PFAL?
"Power for Abundant Living." A series of three classes that formed the doctrinal initiation of all new members. The foundational, intermediate, and advanced classes. There were also a number of collateral classes that one was allowed to attend after completing the intermediate class.
What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)?
"Twig" was the trade name for a home fellowship. Its use was related to the "Way Tree". A twig coordinator was the person who was charged with being the pastor for the home fellowship (which could be anything from 3 to 20+ people...usually, they split up the twigs when the numbers regularly exceeded 20...again, in my experience).
Please keep in mind that my experiences were somewhat limited compared to others. But, if you are gathering broad-based information, I hope that they provide you a good data point.
Again, I'd love to see the paper when you're done with it!
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ChasUFarley
Did anyone try to control you?
There were rules about whether or not you could travel out of the state - even if it was just to go shopping for an hour or visit a relative - you had to fill out a form and have it approved ahead of time. You had to pass in a schedule each week about your plans about the upcoming week - it was set up by hourly increments for each day of the week. Then, you had to pass info about how you went off schedule - how things changed from your plans, etc. So, there was control in that they wanted to know where you were, who you were with, and what happened. There's many other examples I could give you about this but the really ironic thing was that they always said, "you have freewill choice."
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they?
If you were on staff, as I was, you weren't supposed to get pregnant unless you were 30 or older for your first baby, and if it was your second baby it was if you were 35 or something like that. I know of a couple who were "dismissed" for having a slew of kids - I think they had like 7 or 8 kids - but they were great parents - good people. When I was on the fields (not on staff), I had a miscarriage and was told that I shouldn't use it as an excuse not to go to a meeting the following day that I was supposed to work set up crew for - so, I went.
Were you scared at any point and why?
I was scared everytime the phone rang after a while because it seemed like someone was always yelling about something or wanted something from you when you were spread so thin you felt like melted butter.
What drew you to this group?
There were some honestly nice people - good friends - even to this day. The Bible was taught like I'd never heard it taught - it "scratched an itch". The people so believed in what they were in to - it was contageous!
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will?
Some poster here once used the analogy of a frog in boiling water - supposedly, if you place a frog in a kettle of water, slowly turn up the heat, the frog will get comfortable, sleepy, and not realize he's about to be boiled until it's too late (gross, I know)... I got involved out of my own free will. I stayed involved because of my husband, and after my divorce because I felt "obligated". Also, there was a lot of teaching about how if you left, you would die - you would suffer - so, I was scared to leave. After a while, I just felt trapped.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
Where to begin... adultry didn't seem like a bad thing (but I dunno - never tried it, myself), abortion was perfectly acceptable - they taught a baby wasn't a living thing until it took a breath. Those are the big 'rules' or beliefs they held but never really addressed in print for EVERYONE.
What beliefs did/do they follow?
I'll see if I can find you their Statement Of Beliefs document. It doesn't sound any different from what any church might have BUT once you've had their classes, you learn to read between the lines.
What did you think was really false about the group?
The rules were always changing, yet they tried to quote (misuse) Bible verses to justify their flip-flop policies on things. People who you thought were friends would disclose intimate things about you - things you'd shared with them - to upper leadership, just to make themselves look good.
Another poster, someone who was in an upper leadership position, posted that he knew there were two sets of financial books - that was in the 1970's.
There's lots of things...
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
You were told to travel light - not have too many possessions. There was something called "Uncle Harry Day" - the founder's brother, Harry Wierwille, would weed out his house about once a year and purge things he no longer used or needed. Not a bad practice, really, but some people would go overboard. My husband laments about how "Uncle Harry" got his best Led Zepplin albums - LOL!
Were there money issues?
You were supposed to tithe plus more - tithe is 10% - but they taught you should share more - share of your abundance. Of course, most people worked grunt jobs, made min. wage and didn't have a lot of "abundance". It was a joke. You also weren't supposed to be in debt - NONE - not even a mortgage. Even child support was considered debt - I know of people who signed over their parental rights to their ex-spouse just to "get out of debt" - SICK!
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
Go to this link: http://www.theway.org/contact.htm
You'll see a globe/tree looking thing. That's their trademark.
What is PFAL?
Power for Abundant Living is a 12 hour Bible class.
What is "twig" ("twig" cordinator)?
The Way likes to use tree analogy - Headquarters is referred to as the Trunk, the state level leadership is referred to as Limbs, and the groups in the state that meet in the homes are called Twigs. The leaders of the home fellowships were called twig coordinators - they are now called "Household Fellowship Coordinators" because it was thought that the term twig coordinator was out-of-date...
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Belle
Did anyone try to control you?
All the time, but the control was incremental and ever so slowly. I always use Oakspear’s example of putting frogs in cool water and slowly turning the heat up, ever so slowly so that the frogs don’t notice. Eventually the water gets so warm it kills the frogs.
TWI always said that people are free to choose to “do the word” or to not “do the word”, but the consequences of not doing the word meant something horrible might happen to you or your family because God would not be able to protect you from the Devil if you don’t do the word.
The caveat was that what “doing the word” mean in TWI was based on illogical leaps and twisting of scripture and teaching what TWI wanted instead of what the Bible really says God expects and desires from His kids.
Example: TWI teaches that debt is sin and uses Romans 13:8 “Owe no man anything” to justify what they expect from their followers. That means any debt: house, car, hospital bills, unexpected immediate expenses, college loans, etc.
They put “conditions” of being out of debt in order to take their classes and participate in their programs. They also teach that if you’re in debt that God can’t “protect” you from anything the Devil wants to do to you which could mean killing someone in your family, horrible diseases like cancer (which is devil spirit possession according to TWI) and anything that might be your worst nightmare or fear.
So, according to TWI teaching, you can stay out of debt, follow their rules that they say are God’s will and be allowed to take classes and bask in the protection that God provides for His kids OR you can go into debt and take the chance that something horrible could happen to you or someone you love very much.
Is that control? I think so, but TWI says the choice is yours…..It’s a free will choice and they don’t control you in any way. It’s like telling people, imo, that they can do something horrible and oppressive or they can put a bullet to their head. Sure, it’s a choice, but, is it really?
If any of you were pregnant or significant other was pregnant, did you have any difficulties with twi? if so what were they?
I never experienced this. I do know people who were removed from leadership positions for getting pregnant against the desires, will and rules of TWI.
Were you scared at any point and why?
Always scared. Always afraid of being kicked out (Mark & Avoid in TWI terms). Afraid that if I decided to no longer associate with TWI, that they would break up my marriage. It happened. It’s because TWI wants complete control of individuals and if someone leaves TWI they may very well convince their spouse that TWI is wrong and then they will no longer have another person to control nor will they have that person’s money coming into the TWI bank accounts. Just my perspective and opinion.
What drew you to this group?
I originally met some really nice people and they could answer all kinds of questions about the Bible and they knew these scriptures from memory. It was very impressive. Now, I know that the answers they had and that so impressed me were wrong. I believe that there’s just some things we don’t know and can’t know and it’s better to say “I don’t know” than to subscribe to or believe someone just because they say they have an answer.
Do you think you were brainwashed or doing things by your own will?
I think there’s a great deal of manipulation. Of course, based on my answers to the “control” question you asked above, I think that we never really had a choice. I think the atmosphere, teachings and “suggestions” along with the twisting of scriptures gave the illusion of us making our own decisions, but the reality was we didn’t really have a choice and weren’t fully able to do things according to our own will.
Some studies already done on this are the Stockholm Syndrome and there is also a prison experiment done at a college where the simulated a prison environment. I can’t recall the name off the top of my head, but if you really want to know, please let me know and I’ll look it up for you. I want to say it was the Stanford Prison Experiment, but that could be wrong.
What were the known rules inside the group that they don't talk or write about outside of the group?
Sex is okay outside marriage.
Sharing the reasons people were kicked out of the group with the whole church….embarrassing details about people’s lives for the purpose of “educating” the church.
What beliefs did/do they follow?
Not sure I understand or know what you’re looking for here.
What did you think was really false about the group?
The “happy” and “abundant life” that people were supposedly living. It was more like a bunch of “stepford” believers (this only makes sense if you’ve seen Stepford Wives :D ).
What did I think while I was involved or once I got out? The above is something that I noticed while I was still involved. I learned a heck of a lot more once I left the group.
Did they limit you to have certain things or not to own certain things?
According to their debt policy and “owe no man anything” there was nothing you could own that you couldn’t pay cash for – that includes a house, a car and a college education.
If you were to own something considered “extravagant” by TWI standards, it was frowned upon.
People were forbidden to own “serious pets” and that includes dogs, cats, horses, etc. However, the woman who is now president of TWI has always owned cats.
People were forbidden to smoke. It started with leadership, but certain leaders were exempted from this rule and eventually it trickled down to mean that everyone in TWI who smoked had to stop smoking.
Were there money issues?
Yes, especially with the “no debt” policy that TWI eventually said they never had, but they never changed the “rules”.
Yes, because TWI taught that we were to give MINIMUM 15% of our income to them – not to other charities – not to give in terms of time or service in lieu of money – but 15% of our income and that constantly changed from net to gross to net to gross to net of our income.
Is there any kind of symbol or trademark that they used?
The dove. Because it represented the gift of holy spirit.
They forbade their followers to have crosses on display and to wear crosses. They constantly taught that if Jesus was murdered by an electric chair or machine gun is that something we’d be wearing around our necks?
What is PFAL?
A class that taught the foundations of the control issues that TWI planned to implement the longer that people were involved. It also laid the groundwork for the control and justified the warped doctrines TWI teaches. Worse than that, the whole dam n thing was plagiarized and not original research as we were taught that it was. It’s also full of errors if someone were to really evaluate and study what was taught in this class.
What is "twig" ("twig" coordinator)?
Others have answered this very adequately.
Best wishes for you and please let us know what grade you get on your paper!!
Again, please feel free to contact me privately if you have any follow up questions or want more elaboration on these. :)
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