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Can salvation be lost?

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20 hours ago, chockfull said:

Where I diverge from you is in your conclusion of the Bible as one organic whole, revealing a marvelous and profound unity.  Paul's life and Moses life looked not a whole lot at all like one another.  And neither do their writings.  And you get into CGT - Critical Greek Textualism, and who decides the Canon of scripture?  You?  Me?  Joe in plumbing?  Next, what about all of the apocrypha in the Catholic Bible?  What council decided their veracity or lack thereof?  More recently, what about other scroll writings being discovered, older than the ones our modern Bible is cobbled together from?

Don't forget, I prefaced the "Bible as one organic whole", with "the plan of salvation as set forth in the...."... This is the unity I am speaking of.. The plan of salvation, not the "Bible" as some conglomoration of writings someone holds in their hands. The Bible as a whole covers so many topics and thoughts and lives, yes, no doubt, it's going to have quite a myriad of things. But as a whole, salvation is rather a very united thought throughout it. Sometimes, through those different lives and contexts it can be a bit more "cloudy" to see, but it's there. And it doesn't diverge much from the thought I put forth of dispensation being "the handling the affairs of another". That is a delivering of those that desire to "handle the affairs" of the one who placed us on this earth.

I've gone a long way since my TWI days of fundamental worship of the bible itself (and it's handlers) in place of God. Maybe I never went that far, but hey, I was young, still am, and am gullable at times! What else can I say. I'm human! lol..
 

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Handling the affairs of God on earth.  That simplifies it.  What do we do In our day?  Accept Christ and  find a place in the body of Christ.  

For cult people, don't be an antichrist.

 

Since we are discussing this, I'm just curious, and you don't have to answer, but what does it mean to you, to "Accept Christ and find a place in the His body"?

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20 hours ago, chockfull said:

I don't agree with your assessment of Romans 13 at all.  The cop in the small town deriving revenue from setting speed limits lower than what is reasonable did not have God order them to do that.  He allows them just like He allows other criminal activity without immediate judgment.

You are correct.. And I should have placed an "and/or" between "he orders and allows them".. As I agree with yuur point fully on Rom 13, and I just communicated it badly. Thanks.  And that was what I was trying to communicate with His judgment. Sometimes they are now in the present, and sometimes he postpones this judgement. But there are no powers that exist, without Him being aware and capable of doing something about it, if He chooses. Would you agree with that?

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"Death is a requirement or else evil will be allowed to continue eternally"  Is this a scripture somewhere, or a construct of the human mind?  I mean what a horrible picture to paint of God - "powerless human, you need to die so your evil can't continue.  But I'll resurrect you later".   Sounds like a God of waterboarding to me.

The entire sentence can be described as a "construct of the human mind", sure, since i know of no single verse. And I'm not trying to paint any rosy picture here.  There is a final judgement day coming, just as much as there have been "smaller" days of judgement in the past. Should I instead couch it in, "Oh don't worry, God loves you, you just continue doing whatever your heart desires. Bless your little precious heart. God will forgive you, it'll all be ok!". Or what in your mind "should" God do with those who just desire to kill, rape, and pillage others.

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I wasn't criticizing you - your post was just a springboard into a more detailed discussion.   I'm not sure what you are going to take as critical or not - I am posting different opinions than you have and questions about logical points - my aim is not chopping you down or anything just to further discussion and develop this topic of salvation we are discussing in detail.  Thanks for all your posting and contributions I enjoy reading the detail whether I stand on the same side of a particular discussion as you do or not.

Don't worry about me.. I'm fine with any feadback of any kind. I enjoy critiques.. I enjoy having a discussion, mostly though.  That's why I come here. If I wanted to just write platitudes, I guess I would become a book writer.. But rather I'm interesting in conversing and learning from other's takes. Especialling on toppics I think are important. They help me formulate and perfect my own thoughts. So don't worry if I take it as criticism or not, I wasn't trying to keep you from your expressing yourself.

Edited by TrustAndObey

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1 hour ago, TLC said:

Why suppose that everyone seeks rescue or deliverance from the same things?

I don't believe I've insinuated that everyone seeks rescue or deliverance from the same things, have I?  If so, I apologize for misleading.  Rather, I thought I was attempting to help define "salvation" as used in the scriptures. Which is found in a wide variety of contexts and situations, all different things that one was, is, and would seek deliverance from. But of course, I think ultimately, at least in regards to the topic of this thread, I believe we are all talking about salvation from the one and same thing. That is, saved from the wrath to come. The final judgement. Or am I mistaken on that also?

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Furthermore, are you supposing that the conditions for salvation are the same for all?
So, you think what saves one person is no different that what saves anybody else?

I don't believe "conditions" is a word I would use in regards to "salvation".. God judges based on the heart and has only asked that anyone trust Him. For we are saved by grace through "pistis(trust/faith/etc.)", not out of works, lest any man should boast.  Would you define "pistis" as a condition?  Is it a work?  Is it something you do?  I know TWI used to always like to say "pistis(believing)" is a verb and therefore connotes action. And action is usually a good basis for work, but is it work?

If we are talking about the ultimate deliverance from the final death, from the final judgement, then yes, I would most definitely say God has always had it planned by one way, Christ. Whether it be the first Adam, or his final descendant, it has, is, and will always be by way of His son.

Edited by TrustAndObey

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6 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

But of course, I think ultimately, at least in regards to the topic of this thread, I believe we are all talking about salvation from the one and same thing. That is, saved from the wrath to come. The final judgement.

My view of it sees these as two very different events.  The wrath to come points to the tribulations written in Revelations (and referred to in Jeremiah as the time of Jacob's trouble.) The final judgement sounds like something after death, such as the great white throne.  Of course, the question arises as to when anyone might have first known of either of these events, and why anyone that didn't know about them would need (or would think they needed) salvation from them.  

6 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

I don't believe "conditions" is a word I would use in regards to "salvation".. God judges based on the heart and has only asked that anyone trust Him.

Really? And exactly what sort of evidence or scriptures might you be basing that statement on? Who or where do you see that anyone is saved by that?

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7 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

Would you define "pistis" as a condition? 

Yes, but it merely shifts the issue to knowing what it is to believe, or what is to be believed.  Okay, "Believe God."  Are you going to leave it at that with no other parameters? Then how does that fit with and what do you make of James 2:19? 

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7 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

Is it a work? 

No, it's an issue of the heart.  

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10 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

If we are talking about the ultimate deliverance from the final death, from the final judgement, then yes, I would most definitely say God has always had it planned by one way, Christ. Whether it be the first Adam, or his final descendant, it has, is, and will always be by way of His son.

Giving some consideration to the manifold wisdom of God, I don't know why you would insist on saying that God always had it planned by one way (unless you start with Genesis 1:2 and jump straight to Rev. 21.)  Sure, I wouldn't have questioned it had you said that He knew which way it would play out. (Maybe He did, maybe He didn't.  Frankly, I'm not sure. Either way, I believe He has the means to, and knows exactly how to keep it on track.)  I'm just not so quick to think or say it was only planned by "one way."  Perhaps you need to fill in a lot more details of what you see in "by way of His son." 

Edited by TLC

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9 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

You are correct.. And I should have placed an "and/or" between "he orders and allows them".. As I agree with yuur point fully on Rom 13, and I just communicated it badly. Thanks.  And that was what I was trying to communicate with His judgment. Sometimes they are now in the present, and sometimes he postpones this judgement. But there are no powers that exist, without Him being aware and capable of doing something about it, if He chooses. Would you agree with that?

What I'm trying to get at is people talk about whether or not God will bring judgment in the present like He rolls dice and decides or something.   Usually what I see is this line of reasoning is trying to induce or inspire someone with fear motivation towards a certain behavior.  What would you see as determining God carrying out or postponing judgment in the present?  I mean the general mainstream Christian view is God holds off from judgment for the future like the parable of the wheat and the tares.  The question this line of reasoning brings up is "How much does God intervene in human affairs?"

Is there comfort in thinking that God is aware of everything and capable of doing something about it if He chooses, He just doesn't choose because that would make it unjust?  

The entire sentence can be described as a "construct of the human mind", sure, since i know of no single verse. And I'm not trying to paint any rosy picture here.  There is a final judgement day coming, just as much as there have been "smaller" days of judgement in the past. Should I instead couch it in, "Oh don't worry, God loves you, you just continue doing whatever your heart desires. Bless your little precious heart. God will forgive you, it'll all be ok!". Or what in your mind "should" God do with those who just desire to kill, rape, and pillage others.

In my mind I don't try to determine how God carries out or should carry out justice.    And the method that will happen is not tremendously clear.  "Final judgment" - what do you refer to there?  The rapture and rewards?  The "Great White Throne Judgment"?  The judgment of Satan and lake of fire?   What "smaller days of judgment" in the past are you talking about?  I'm not condoning promoting sin in grace.   But it is a dangerous slope when man starts playing God.  

 

 

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On 6/22/2018 at 3:34 AM, TrustAndObey said:

Since we are discussing this, I'm just curious, and you don't have to answer, but what does it mean to you, to "Accept Christ and find a place in the His body"?

Lately my view on this has been "anything except the polar opposite which we see as common occurrences in the Way and splinter groups".  

Accepting Christ - I would feel no other need to embellish that phrase.   People who make Christ Lord are not tricked into it.  Plenty of instruction in scripture for this one.

Find a place in His body - 

WHAT IT IS NOT: - I was a person with a high position in the Way, to preserve "my effort and years of studying scripture" I will start a new splinter group with myself as the "leader, director, originator, founder, etc".    

WHAT IT IS - a healthy acknowledgement that the teachings of the Way regarding a "household of God" as somehow separate and more elite than the "body of Christ" are antichrist, and actions that show appreciation for other members in particular in the body of Christ including those in denominations, in the Catholic church, in cities and communities across the world as community Christian churches.   Christians acknowledge and appreciate and collaborate with other Christians, not isolating themselves off into a little small group called a "twig" or called whatever with a "twig coordinator" or a "whatever coordinator" who is or isn't calling themselves that at the moment like the RnR railroad folks.

This is only answering the question "what do I mean by accepting Christ and finding a place in His body".

 

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